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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Fuller's London Porter recipe?? (robertjm)
  cara-crystal ("Stephen Cavan")
  Straffe Hendrik ("Braam Greyling")
  Which Ontario? (Alan McKay)
  Re: Open fermentation question (Jeff Renner)
  Passing Yeasts ("H. Dowda")
  advice on high-temp flexible tubing (Jake Isaacs)
  Re: Subject: Moosehead vs Anything Moosey (Cameron LiDestri)
  elderberries ("Micah Millspaw")
  re: Diacetyl woes, can you help diagnose? ("Steve Alexander")
  re: Primary vs. Secondary ("Steve Alexander")
  OT: My Sept 11 offering to HBD ("Gary Smith")


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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:44:19 -0700
From: robertjm at hockeyhockeyhockey.com
Subject: Fuller's London Porter recipe??

I just got back from the store
and am sipping on a Fuller's
London Porter. Man, oh man,
is that a great beer.

Anyone here have a knock-off
recipe by chance?

Later,

Robert


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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:48:53 -0400
From: "Stephen Cavan" <scavan at sprint.ca>
Subject: cara-crystal

From: aldrich4 at t-online.de (Wayne Aldrich)
Subject: Barley Malt

"I recently purchased 1kg of barley malt from a supplier in Belgium.  I
bought it to add color and body to an American Brown Ale.  The bag is
labeled CARA-CRYSTAL (120 EBC). I know the EBC is the European colour
measurement in this case about 65 Lovibond.  But what the heck is
CARA-CRYSTAL?  Should I use it like an American crystal malt? "

Treat it as the same. Only the British distinguish the caramel malts form
crystal malts, and the differences are subtle. They are both stewed at about
150F, then kilned.  The caramel malts are kilned with vents closed; crystal
with vents open. The open vents drop humidity fast, and force the sugars
into a hard crystal state. In theory the crystal form offer more
unfermentable sugars, and sharper caramel taste. As a general rule, caramel
malts will be slightly soft or chewy, if you bite them. Crystal malts are
very hard or glass-like.
Steve





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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:13:26 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: Straffe Hendrik

Hi all,

Thanks for everyone who sent mail about the Straffe Hendrik topic. 

I intend to brew one soon and will post the results.

Best regards

Braam



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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 06:56:02 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: Which Ontario?


Gary,

Are you talking Ontario the province in Canada, or Ontario one
of the cities in the western US?  If you mean the province, can
you be more specific as Ontario is about the size of 
the European Union.

You can check the following HBD issues for some tips in
south western Ontario, Canada :

http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3975.html#3975-16
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3974.html#3974-7

And as always check www.pubcrawler.com

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site 


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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:53:20 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Open fermentation question

"Adam Wead" <a_wead at hotmail.com> writes from Bloomington, IN:

>does open fermentation really mean "open?"
>As in, keep the the lid off your fermentation bucket?
>
>What about contamination?
>
>I know some style are more suited to open vs. closed fermentation.  What are
>the advantages/disadvantages?

Many traditional breweries manage to make fine beer with uncovered, 
open fermenters, but as has been said before, they manage in spite of 
this, not because of it.  And I have had some real ale in England 
that suffered from short life because of it, IMO.

I ferment ales in a ten gallon (38 liter) stock pot with a valve on 
the bottom.  I keep the lid on most of the time, or cover it with 
wide plastic wrap.  I take occasional peeks, but the cover keeps out 
airborne contaminants as well as insects carrying contaminants.  I 
think this is only prudent.

It can be argued that a constant supply of air across the top of the 
fermenting wort and its yeast cap might keep the yeast happier, and 
some yeasts are notorious for needing additional oxygen after they 
begin fermenting.  I just don't use these.

I think that ales, especially ones with yeasts that produce a heavy 
top layer of yeast and lots of foam, are best suited to this.  For 
lagers with their slower, longer fermentation and lower levels of 
foam (kraeusen), I ferment in either carboys or kegs that are ~80% 
full, so I don't get blow-off.

The big advantage, to me, of open ale fermentations is the ability to 
collect, or harvest, the yeast.  I choose yeasts that make a heavy 
top crop.  This is the purest yeast you'll ever see, and gets 
subsequent ferments off to a fast start.

Hope this helps.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 06:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: Passing Yeasts

Gump laments, as many of us do, the passing of tried
and true dry yeasts.  In the Danstar line London and
now Manchester will be sorely missed.  Since the
company no longer has a fiscal interest, perhaps they
will 'officially' share the heritage of these strains
so we can attempt to find them elsewhere.  The irony
of brewers having to yeast ranch a dry yeast is
appreciated.

Always room for more judges at the Palmetto State
Brewers'Open Sept 28.
http://www.sagecat.com/psb/psbo4.htm



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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:32:16 -0400
From: Jake Isaacs <rjisaa0 at uky.edu>
Subject: advice on high-temp flexible tubing

I posted this in the forums, but didn't get a huge response.  I'd like 
to try my hand at making a peristaltic pump and was wondering if anyone 
had advice on tubing that is safe at high temps (maybe up to boiling to 
be on the safe side), but is also "squishable" enough to function well 
in the pump.

Price is of course an issue, otherwise I'd just buy a pump (and the 
other frankensteinian contraptions I've made, for that matter).

Neoprene was recommended, but I was wondering if my local hardware 
superstores would stock it.  I've got a lot of tubing laying around the 
lab, so maybe I can find some.

I will likely use the pump for moving wort from the kettle through the 
CFC and perhaps for recirculating the mash liquor.  I was going to power 
the pump with a cordless electric drill or maybe one of the motors I 
have laying around.  Would I kill my drill by having it run the pump for 
an hour of recirculation?

Anyone have any other advice for this homebrewed pump?



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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 07:38:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cameron LiDestri <clidestri at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: Moosehead vs Anything Moosey


- --- Request Address Only - No Articles <homebrew-request@hbd.org>
wrote:
> 
> 
> Subject: Moosehead vs Anything Moosey

OOooo! Somebody should make a beer called "Big, Stinking Pile of
Moose Sh**". Then see if Moosehead complains that someone might
mistake it for their brand!

 -Cameron
Spending more time thinking about making beer than actually making it.

=====
 -Cam



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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:43:35 -0500
From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at silganmfg.com>
Subject: elderberries


>Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 19:29:05 -0800
>From: "ira Edwards" <ira_j_e at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Elderberries
>I am wondering if anyone out there has hints for the use of
elderberries in
>Mead and Beer.  I have seen elderberry wine recipies, and have heard
of
>elderberry beers and meads, but nothing on the web that I have found
lets me
>know what is the best way to prepre and use these fruits.  Thanks for
any
>help...
>Ira Edwards

I have had success with elderberries in beer, mead and wine. After
collecting
the ripe berries and removing them from the stems (not fun) I put them
into 
plastic bags and freeze them. I take them out to thaw the morning that
I am
going to use them. Just add them into the primary fermenter with mead
and
wine. For beer (I like them in stout) I add the berries to the
secondary in leu of
the wort for krausen.

Micah Millspaw - brewer at large


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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 07:39:05 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Diacetyl woes, can you help diagnose?

 Mark Linton  says of his BoPils ...

>but then the diacetyl reared its ugly head.
 ...
>Can anyone tell me the best way to avoid this in the future?

[Made on the 26th, signs of fermentation on the 27th, moved to a secondary
12 days later].

Tho' some yeast are "low diacetyl producers" it's never advisable to skip or
abbreviate the diacetyl rest for a lager.  That's probably the primary
lesson to be learned here.

Diacetyl (and it's less evil twin 2,3 pentanedione) is formed when
acetohydroxy acid gets outside the yeast cell and is decarboxylated to form
the VDKs we know and hate.   High pitching rates, yeast strain, oxygen, and
temperature can each lead to increased VDK concentrations, but all of these
can readily be overcome during the VDK reduction phase.    Actually yeast
can convert vastly more VDKs than they produce according to tests where huge
amounts of diacetyl are added to the fermenter yet don't appear in the final
beer.   Diacetyl isn't removed from beer - it is converted to acetoin and
thence to butanediol by the yeast - each with high flavor thresholds (less
flavorful).

>From Kunze - Yeast have a huge ability to remove VDKs across nearly all
strains.  The ability to reduce VDKs drops off gradually after the primary
fermentation.  The removal is very temperature sensitive and plateaus at
roughly 15C(59F) and above.  The rate of removal is very dependent on yeast
concentration, and improves with increasing yeast-beer contact by agitation.

Diacetyl levels start to rise immediately as fermentation starts, peaks as
the attenuation is nearly over (around day 5 for typical lager brewing) and
declines thereafter.  The point at which diacetyl declines below the 0.1ppm
flavor threshold is highly variable and this gives commercial lager brewers
fits.  Boulton and Quain report that this point varied for one sequence of
commercial brews from 150 hours to over 220 hours.  They suggest that wort
composition can be the cause of such variability - but without detail.

The concentration of  diacetyl in the fermenter - the gentle up & down curve
is apparently actively controlled by the yeast.  In one study 1.0ppm of
diacetyl (roughly double the fermenter conc.) was added to a fermenter at
various times.  The yeast removed this additional diacetyl in a very short
period  (usually a few hours - tho longer late in the fermentation) but only
dropped the concentration back to the level of the characteristic 'curve'.
They yeast could convert all the diacetyl at anytime - but they don't bother
until after attenuation.

Back to Mark's woes.  Oxygen added during transfers can be a source of
diacetyl, as can infection or poor yeast condition.

>[...] leave it in the chest freezer until temps are down
>into the low 60's and dropping before pitching the yeast.  I think I
>pitched the 1500 ml starter of the WLP802 Czech Budejovice Lager at about
>60F, and it was in the low 50's just a few hours later. [...]
>mostly [...] 52-53F.

The pitching rate(1.5L starter) is low by commercial & Kap'n Salty standards
[apologies Kap'n, but making Eric Fouch cry and give up brewing is as evil
as anything Cap'n Crunch has done].   Pitching at 60+F may give you
warm-fuzzies when you see the fermentation lock quickly activate but when
you drop the fermentation temp below the pitching temp you are doing a real
disservice to the yeast.   Like sterol, yeast can only form UFAs(unsaturated
fatty acids) when oxygen is present during the first few hours after
pitching into oxygenated wort.  They need UFAs for a lot of reasons but they
will form and need quite a lot more (in quantity and degree of desaturation)
at lower temps.

By pitching warm you've directed the yeast to form less UFA and then you've
dropped the fermentation temperature to the low 50sF where they require
more.  It's like putting your little buddies on a low-fat diet right before
sending them on an arctic expedition.

>[...]  I'm wondering if I should pitch at around 50F, and ferment in the
>40's F.

Patience ...You'd be better off pitching in the 40sF and fermenting in the
50sF - just the opposite.

>Will this diminish with time, similar to the way sulphur goes
>away?  Anything I can do now to improve this (otherwise) good batch?

It won't go away on it's own and the only solutions are an enzyme addition
to convert the diacetyl (hard to find diacetyl reductase btw) or to add a
kreusen and allow some refermentation & diacetyl conversion (diacetyl
reductase on the hoof ... errr uhhh on the chitinous bud scars?).

There is nothing wrong (for most lager yeast) with the fermentation temp in
the low 50sF.  This creates more diacetyl but the diacetyl is also converted
much faster at this temp.  Next time I'd drop the pitching temp to at least
the expected fermentation temp and pitch about 3X your starter size, then
keep the beer and yeast together for several days after attenuation has
ceased.   If you have a slow lingering fermentation it's best to increase
the contact time.

 -S




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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 11:07:33 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Primary vs. Secondary

> I have never used a secondary in 10 years of brewing.  I always leave my
> beer in the primary to make sure fermentation is done.   I have never
> experienced any off-flavors as a result, as far as I can tell.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but like HSA, folks look for the wrong 
identifying flavors   The early sign of yeast degradation is called
"yeast bite" - a broad and unpleasant bitterness.  Most HBers are
thinking of  sulfurous, rubber tire and dead mouse flavors which
form well beyond the yeast-bite stage.

When this happens and how much it impacts flavor is dependent
on the yeast and the temperatures and conditions and probably
not predictable.  I've seen weizen yeast-cakes 'get funky' and die
(couldn't be recultured) in a matter of weeks and I've also
experienced very good tasting ales left on the full yeast-cake for
6 months in warm conditions.

Also  there is no consistent HB notion as to what a secondary is
and what it is used for.

'Dropping' is decanting a beer off the trub to a secondary at
or before the peak of fermentation - from 24 to 48 hours after
pitching.  I think this practice makes  lot of sense for lagers and
ales alike.  The majority of the yeast in suspension is preserved
and the trub & less competent yeast are left behind.

Creating a secondary after attenuation and diacetyl conversion
makes some sense too, but the advantages are limited. You risk
flavor damage from air, but get a cleaner beer into the keg or bottle.

 -S




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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:35:23 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at ameritech.net>
Subject: OT: My Sept 11 offering to HBD

Friends,

This is a very sad day for us indeed. We all have our own 
feeling of impact on what was and now is and the future 
is as always,  uncertain. May we all learn from the 
past and find a better world tomorrow.

Here's my offering, I am a musician and this is from a
CD I made after the Sept 11 attacks last year. This tune could 
not come more from my heart than as you find it.

http://musician.dyndns.org/Gary_Smith_-_07_-_My_Country_Tis_of_Thee.mp3

God Bless America.

Gary

Gary Smith

http://musician.dyndns.org

"Grief can take care of itself, but to get the full value of 
a joy you must have somebody to divide it with."
 - Mark Twain -




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