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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  yeast autolysis and head retention (Kevin Crouch)
  Re: Decoction debate (Michael Owings)
  Best mash temps for Durst Pilsner malt? (Nutty Gambler)
  Anyone brewing in central NY?? (Carmen Salvatore)
  Spanish Peaks Black Dog Honey Raspberry Ale Clone ("Menzl's")
  Re: Decoction (Svlnroozls)


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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:17:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching at yahoo.com>
Subject: yeast autolysis and head retention

For Paul Kensler and John Misrahi,  who have observed
poor head retention in Bavarian hefeweizens,

The yeast autolysis hypothesis is quite interesting. 
I wonder why German hefeweizen yeast would be more
prone to autolysis, (for those who aren't cell
biologists,  that's a fancy word for disintegrating)
than any of the other yeast strains out there; I would
be surprised if yeast would have enough proteolytic
enzymes to break down all the excess proteins in a
wheat beer so soon after bottling,  and that the pH in
a finished Hefeweizen would be accommodating to these
enzymes. Furthermore, If you still have a chill haze, 
then you know there is ample high/medium weight
protein in your product to produce a decent head. 

My contribution to this discussion is the thought that
poor head retention might be caused by excess lipids.
If yeast autolysis is indeed the culprit, then I might
be more inclined to believe that it is the lipids
thrown into the beer by the degrading yeast that ruins
your head retention rather than enzyme action.    

Lee W. Janson, PhD. writes in [Brew Chem 101 The
Basics of Homebrewing Chemistry] That... 'One of the
drawbacks of lipids is that they decrease head
retention by acting like soap and almost literally
dissolving the foamy head'.  

Other sources of lipids is yeast metabolism and the
wheat used for a hef, most of which winds up in the
trub. Assuming you are racking promptly to a
secondary, which is a good idea anyway with a hef
because excess lipids in the trub can also inhibit
ester production,  then lipids from yeast fermentation
and/or autolysis might just be the case. I do notice
that some, but not all,  beers I have stored for some
time tend to be losers in the head retention
department where at one point they did quite nicely,
and I've always wondered why.  

Kevin crouch
Vancouver, WA



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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:12:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Owings <tafkaks at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Decoction debate

No, I wouldn't want to use the thin part of the mash
for the decoction at this point. The reason is that I
expect starch to be liberated  from the boiling grain,
which I want to convert in the main mash, so I need
the enzymes. I use the decoct to bring the main mash
to 160F or so. This allows the additional starch
released in the decoct to be converted and gives me an
additional (alpha?) amylase rest.

I'm not trying to hit mashout at this point. If that
were the case, I'd indeed be boiling the thinnest part
of the mash.

========= LJ Vitt Spaketh ==============
The artist only identified as mikey at swampgas.com
described doing one decoction AFTER a regular
sacrafication rest.

I find one aspect interesting:  I would expect someone
doing a rest at that time to pick up the usual final
decoction -- the thin part.  No he (is it she) is
boiling the grains with just enough liquid to get the
job done.




=====
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html



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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:57:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nutty Gambler <nuttygambler at yahoo.com>
Subject: Best mash temps for Durst Pilsner malt?

I am at a loss as to what would be the best mashing
temps for Oktoberfest and Pilsner styles of beer.  
The more I read the more confused I get.

Do I need a rest at 122F or should I use 135F.    I am
thinking of switching to this.
135 - 150 - 158 each for 30 minutes is this a good
schedule for Durst Pilsner malt?   

Other things I've read read 122-140-158 each for 30. 
Thanks for all input. 







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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:20:07 -0400
From: Carmen Salvatore <carmen.salvatore at lmco.com>
Subject: Anyone brewing in central NY??

Hi Everyone - 

This is a 'Brewing Partner Wanted' request. 

Is there anyone out there in HBD-land from central NY (Utica/Rome area)
who would interested in getting together for a brew session or two?? 

Carm Salvatore


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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:08:09 -0400
From: "Menzl's" <menzl at concentric.net>
Subject: Spanish Peaks Black Dog Honey Raspberry Ale Clone

Does anyone have a recipe for cloning Spanish Peaks Black Dog Honey
Raspberry Ale?  The Spanish Peaks website describes the beer as "A light
bodied amber ale made with wildflower honey and natural raspberry. These
ingredients, combined with five domestic and imported malted barleys,
Pacific Northwest hops, water and ale yeast, create a unique, fruity ale
with a soft palate and a touch of sweetness. "  I would like to make
something similar and am looking for some suggestions before I start.

Thanks!
William Menzl
Midland, Michigan [99.8, 344.8] Apparent Rennerian








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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:06:09 EDT
From: Svlnroozls at aol.com
Subject: Re: Decoction

To be clear, I do understand that boiling is involved in a typical decoction 
and indeed, that is what I do.  I didn't go into much detail in my last post 
and so did not feel the need to enunciate that.  I believe that the the word 
"decoction" refers to the act of removing some of the mash from the main mash 
tun, rather than the boiling of it.

C.T.

In a message dated 9/23/02 9:11:35 PM, LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com> writes:

<< C.T. Davis descibed a mashing method he/she calls decoction.
Some of the mash is removed and heated seperately and at the
same time as the main mash, and recombined.  I would not call
it decoction - because the word decoct means to boil (Is my 
memory correct here?)
I would call it an unusual method of acheiving a step mash. >>


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