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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  false bottom help? ("Kirk McDonald")
  re : in the backwoods of columbia (Alan McKay)
  Re: beer X has taste Y (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Sunlight, Hops, and Outdoor Brewing ("Chad Gould")
  Re:  beer X has taste Y ("David Houseman")
  Tropical hops and Colombian ("Dave Burley")
  Dave Line and sugar, Colombian Brewer's Yeast ("Dave Burley")
  Ion/water softener and pH ("Dave Burley")
  RIMS Cleaning -- Is CIP OK? ("Lou King")
  Zepto-sized brewing in a growler?? (Robert Marshall)
  Schneider Wiesen Edel Weisse Clone ("Mark E. Hogenmiller")


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Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:02:26 +0930
From: "Kirk McDonald" <kirem at ihug.com.au>
Subject: false bottom help?

Hi,
I am building up a HERMS system using a deal of PC controlled automation. I
plan to pump continuously and regulate the flow either through a heat
exchange coil in the HLT or bypass the heat exchanger and back into the mash
tun, I will also eventually have the ability to regulate the pump, probably
by using pulse frequency to adjust the duty cycle. Amongst other uses I am
using level control to prevent a compacted mash bed. I know this has been
covered a thousand times but I am still confused. Is there an ideal hole
size and spacing for a false bottom and what about thickness. I have access
to hex close pack pattern stainless steel sheet but I have no knowledge on
what combination of hole size, spacing and thickness to use in a 50l sankey
keg.

Regards,

Kirk




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Date: Sat,  5 Oct 2002 08:02:24 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: re : in the backwoods of columbia


Whoops, forgot to copy the HBD on my reply :

> Raw unprocessed honey is readily available. It is relatively inexpensive as
> well.  Can you point me to information on how to use the honey for this
> process?

Well, like I said I've never done this so I don't know how much
honey you'll need.  But I'd start by mixing 1 part honey to 2
parts extract, and add enough water so that it is stirrable.  
You don't want to add all your water at this point though because
enzymes prefer a thicker 'mash'.  Now hold this at 150F to 160F
for an hour.  If it all converts then maybe you can get away
with less honey next time.  If not, then maybe you need more.

> I did a before test on some of the dry extract using iodine from a medical
> kit.  The iodine was a yellow color on regular table sugar, and black as
> night on the dme.

Yup, there's starch there!  You'll get purple if you mash closer
to 160F, and closer to yellow as you get down to 150F.  160F is fine
it just gives you bigger sugars, some of which won't be fermentable
so you'll get a heavier bodied beer.
 
> >That's about it.  I think you want about 3% water, which is
> >quite dry.
> 
> I don't quite follow- could you please clarify what you mean by 3% water?

That's the water content of the dried malt.  Basically what it means is you
do not want it bone dry.  It's extremely dry though - when you
break open a malt it's all crunchy and you'd never guess there were
any water in there.  I should know exactly how this is measured because
my friend owns a hardwood kiln and they use the same technique for
measuring water content of the wood.  I think you weigh it completely
wet and soaking, then dry a sample portion completely bone dry and
weight it again.  You take the difference of the weights and that
would be 0% water content.  Now work out what weight would be
3% water content and aim for that by testing.  But that's getting
really, really picky and I doubt you have to be that picky.  And
like I said I don't even recall if 3% is the right number so I 
wouldn't worry about it.

cheers,
 -Alan


- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site (tm)


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Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 09:47:15 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: beer X has taste Y

"Joe O'Meara" <omeara at onewest.net> writes:

>  Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net> asks [for] examples of a
>specific beer flavour. ...
>
>And here's my two cents worth:

<snip>

>Lactobacillus(sp?):  Guiness Stout

It has been argued that Guinness adds 3% soured beer to its final 
product, but this has never been confirmed.  I don't find any 
particular lactic acid tang or aroma in Guinness.

The spiderweb plot on p. 77 of Michael Lewis's Classic Style Series 
book _Stout_ shows Guinness much lower than Samuel Smith's Oatmeal 
Stout on sourness (but higher than Sierra Nevada stout)but with more 
acetic aroma than either.  note that this later is acetic (as in 
acetic acid), not acidic.

>Yeast:  Rolling Rock.  Nuff said.

Rolling Rock is very high in DMS (dimethyl sulfate) and is an 
excellent example for palate education.  DMS is a product of the 
malt, not of brewers yeast, although bacterial infections can also 
produce it.

>Adjuncts:  Dare I say Budweiser?  Let it warm up a bit first to get the
>green apple smell.

The green apple smell does not come from rice adjunct, which is very 
neutral, and acts mostly as a malt diluent as far as flavor or aroma. 
Corn arguably has more flavor and aroma, but it too is subtle.

It is often assumed that the green apple smell in Budweiser comes 
from acetaldehyde, which does have a green apple smell.  But when the 
director of the A/B pilot brewery took a bunch of us on a tour of the 
St. Louis pilot brewery two years ago as part of MCAB-2, he insisted 
that Bud has acetaldehyde levels below detectable.  He was very 
definite on this point in the face of questioning from us about the 
green apple flavor.  Since he was extremely forthcoming about every 
single thing we asked (he said there were no secrets about making 
Bud, anyone with A/B's money could do it), I have no reason to think 
that he was misleading us on this.

I have to conclude that the apple flavor in Bud comes from something 
else, either process or the yeast, more likely the latter.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 12:38:40 -0400
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Sunlight, Hops, and Outdoor Brewing

> We all know that sunlight can skunk a bottled beer.  Thanks to my wife's
> hatred for the wonderful aroma of homebrewing, I have been banished to
> the back porch.  Since then I've brewed several hoppy beers, directly
> under the noon sun, and without a lid (due to the ever present boil over
> problem).  So far I have yet to get any skunky characters.  Believe me,
> I'm not complaining.  My question is:
> Can anyone tell me why we get this skunking in a finished beer but not
> in boiling wort?

Firstly, hop skunking is only present in wort that has been boiled - hop
compounds have to be isomerized in the boil first. I imagine that there is
minimal skunking actually going on when you are merely boiling the beer in
the sun. Skunking (from what I've been told) will reverse itself eventually
if left in the dark for a couple of weeks, so I don't think you have that
much of a problem boiling the beer in the sun one way or the other.




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Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 19:37:32 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:  beer X has taste Y

Joe O'Meara offers the following:

"And here's my two cents worth:
Hops:  Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.  Classic Cascade aroma and flavor...Also,
Bridgeport IPA for dryhopping
Lactobacillus(sp?):  Guiness Stout
Sweet in the finish:  Pyramid Broken Rake.  I don't know if this beer will
be out this year or not, but I fell in love with it last year.
Yeast:  Rolling Rock.  Nuff said.
Adjuncts:  Dare I say Budweiser?  Let it warm up a bit first to get the
green apple smell."

Puleeeze.   Guinness Stout does NOT have lactobacillus by any stretch of the
imagination, unless there is an anomalous infection.  Rolling Rock may have
some DMS but no yeast aromas!   And Budweiser intentionally ensures some
acetaldehyde, or green apple (bruised apple is a better description) but
this IS NOT because of any of the adjuncts.   I'd suggest a review of
flavors from various back issues of Zymurgy and Brewing Techniques as well
as numerous brewing texts.  Take a look at the BJCP Style Guidelines on-line
at www.bjcp.org and compare the style descriptions with the listed
commercial examples.

David Houseman





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Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:22:05 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Tropical hops and Colombian

Brewsters:

Adam Austin's brewing concerns in Columbia bring several things to mind:

1) "cheaper than dirt" barley may have been treated with some sort of
anti-fungal substance if it is intended to be planted. Be sure to use only the
animal feed variety which may not be as good at sprouting but safer.

2) I am puzzled by the available malt extract unless its purpose is intended
as a baking additive. Which is likely. I'd check with the manufacturer to see
if you can get a version which is more suitable for brewing. It may be that
hoembrewing in Colombia is illegal. And may explain the form of the malt
extract. Do your homework first.

3) enzymes may do the job but should be denatured by a boil after they do
their job.  Also they will attack the existing dextrins in the extract and you
may not get a suitable beer. If you use the enzymes you may have to boil the
extract first to make the starch available for the enzymes. Of course, if you
can get some malt, you can always use it to convert the starch in the extract
and reduce your need to import quantities of malt.  I suspect the local
breweries or maltsters could supply you with some malt if you ask.

4) order your hops in those vacuum packs. Shipping is not much and you will be
much more satisfied.  Tropical hops do not do well as they need some down
time. Don't know if it will work but,  you could try a trick used by tropical
grape growers and that is to withhold water ( if you can) and strip the leaves
or cut them off to provide a false winter.

Keep on brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 11:29:02 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Dave Line and sugar, Colombian Brewer's Yeast

Brewsters:

I read "Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy" when Dave Line was stilll alive and
the book was in its first British edition when I lived there, as I recall.

Jon Savage says don't add sugar if you don't want to. Turns out the Brits do
add sugar in the commercial  breweries  and have for a couple of centuries.
As far as I know, Line's sugar addition level is researched and is appropriate
for the brew in question and not done to save money as was the cases in so
many of the early British HB books.  So if it says sugar in his recipe add the
amount and type to be correct.
- -----------------------
I meant to mention in my earlier note to Adam in Colombia. Likely the Brewer's
yeast available to you in profusion has been steam treated and therefore is
dead and useful only as a nutrient source of vitamin B complex.. Before I'd
use it in my brew, I'd try it on a test batch to see if it is viable.

Keep on brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 11:38:59 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Ion/water softener and pH

Brewsters:

Michael Hackney has recently moved from a city water supply to a well and
wonders if pH paper is adequate to check the pH of the water for adjustment.

The pH of the water is irrelevant as the calcium, and to some extent the
magnesium content, of the mash liquor (brewing water) and the grist makeup
control the pH of the mash.

If your water source is  a well ( as mine was when I lived in NJ)  and you
soften it and ion exchange it ( as I did)  you should have no problem except
carbon dioxide in it.  A quick boil or air scrub should solve that problem if
you want to.

I'd use the water ( which should be ion free)  as you get it and modify it
with calcium for ales and the like.  For lagers, I wouldn't touch it. If you
insist, then add 20 ppm as calcium chloride.

If you drink the deionized water as your sole source, be sure to add a regimen
of micronutrients and minerals to your diet to replace thsoe normally gotten
from the water supply.

Keep on brewin'

Dave Burley



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Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:26:25 -0400
From: "Lou King" <lking at pobox.com>
Subject: RIMS Cleaning -- Is CIP OK?

For the longest time, I have been considering building a RIMS system.
Yesterday I finally started ordering the parts for the system, and it
has dawned on me that this might, in fact, increase the time it takes
for me to finish cleaning on brew day.  (Why do these things always dawn
on me just after I spend a bunch of money? :) )

In any case, it seems to me that using the RIMS pump, and possibly the
heater itself, might be a good way to do a clean in place (CIP) process
for my mash tun, the pump, the heating chamber, the heating element, and
the piping.

But I do worry about all of the nooks and crannys which might be missed
by a CIP procedure.  I saw back in HBD #3936 (May 9, 2002) that this
same question was posed, but I only found one response.  The respondant
disassembles his system, which wasn't the answer I wanted to hear ;-)

1. Are there people out there who use RIMS and have had success pumping
PBW (or something else) through their RIMS chamber, etc?

2. Are there people out there who have had disasters using CIP
procedures with their RIMS?

Lou King
Ijamsville, MD



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Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:58:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Marshall <robertjm1 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Zepto-sized brewing in a growler??

I'm sure its been done, but nobody has discussed it
here yet (I searched the HBD before posting).

Has anyone brewed a complete batch in a growler?
Obviously, fermentation wouldn't be an issue, since
you're using a cork and airlock to release CO2.

What about carbonation? A growler will hold fermented
beer from a microbrwery for a couple of days, but its
not exactly designed to naturally carbonate in it.
Anyone have any sucesses/failures attempting this? 

I want to experiment with some zepto-sized batches,
rather than make 2.8/5 gallons at a time, and so
figured I'd ask here whether anyone has done this yet,
or not.

BTW: In case you're wondering what's a zepto?:
http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/q/quantifiers.html

(A yocto would be a 12 oz. bottle batch :-O )




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Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:46:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Mark E. Hogenmiller" <hogenmiller at yahoo.com>
Subject: Schneider Wiesen Edel Weisse Clone 

Based on the responses that I received to my request
for a Schneider Wiesen Edel Weisse Clone in Homebrew
Digest #4055 (October 01, 2002).  This is the recipe I
formulated.  Any feedback would be appreciated.

Schneider Wiesen Edel Weisse Clone
Style: 19b  Weizen/Weissbier
     
         Min     Recipe     Max
O.G.     1.046    1.051    1.056
T.G.     1.008    1.013    1.016
Alc %      4.9      5.0      5.5
I.B.U.      10     14.6       15
S.R.M.       3      3.4        9

Ingredients for 5.5 gallons:
6.5 lbs German Wheat Malt (MASH)
3.5 lbs German Pilsner 2-row (MASH)
0.5 oz Northern Brewer 7% BOIL 60 minutes
1 oz Cascade 5% FINISHING 20 minutes
Yeast: Culture from Schneider Weizen Bottle
Boil Time: 60 minutes
Mashing Procedure:
Mash Efficiency:  75% 
Add 3.13 gallons of water at 133 to heat mash to 122 
Add 1.91 gallons of boiling water to heat mash to 152 

Notes:
      Use a two-step infusion mash at 122 degrees F
for 20 minutes for protein rest.  Add required amount
of boiling water to raise to 152 degrees F.  Hold for
45 minutes or until starch converts. Mash out at 170
degrees F.  Hold for 5 Minutes. Sparge with 170
degrees F water until 6.5 gallons of wort have
collected.  After boiling and cooling adjust volume of
wort in Primary Fermenter to 5.5 gallons with
distilled water if necessary.
       
      Ferment at 68 degrees F. Rack from primary
fermenter two to four days after primary fermentation
activity has stopped and yeast settles to bottling
bucket.  Secondary fermentation in the bottle for
seven days at 68 degree F. Cold Maturation at 50
degrees F for 21 days. 

Mark Hogenmiller
BURP Homebrew Club
Green Tiger Brewery
hogenmiller at yahoo.com
Burke, VA
   
> From: "Mark E. Hogenmiller" <hogenmiller at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Schneider Wiesen Edel Weisse
> 
> Has anyone tried to clone Schneider Wiesen Edel
> Weisse?  The importers web-site
> http://www.bunitedint.com/Products/schneider-2.html
> indicates that this is a revival of Wheat
Octoberfest
> beer that was phased out in 1942 due to the loss of
> the Schnieder Munich Brewery during WWII and in now
> exclusively brewed for the US Market with Cascade
> hops.
> Brewing Process: Primary ferm in open vessels for
> three days at 68 F. Secondary ferm in the bottle for
> seven days at same temp. Cold Maturation at 50 F for
> 21 days. 
> Hops: Hallertauer Magnum, Cascade 
> Malt: Wheatmalt "Atlantis", barley malt "Scarlett" 
> Recipe suggestions would be appreciated.
> 

 




 


 





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