HOMEBREW Digest #4064 Fri 11 October 2002

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  Welded coupling problem ("Michael Hackney")
  re: Basic Stamp for RIMS? ("The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty")
  Phoam Control ("Dan Listermann")
  Hamms Beer Clone ("Mike Racette")
  RE: Basic Stamp used for RIMS? (Mark Alfaro)
  Good Eats ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  Beer line calcs ("Todd M. Snyder")
  RE: mash/lauter tun (Bill Tobler)
  RE: Basic Stamp used for RIMS? (Kent Fletcher)
  polarware pot brewkettle false bottom (Steven S)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:48:46 -0400 From: "Michael Hackney" <mhackney at micromationsciences.com> Subject: Welded coupling problem Hi All, I have a keg that was partially converted; Here's what I mean by that. I handed a keg and two 1/2" stainless couplings to a welder to have them welded on to the keg. The only problem is that when he made the hole in the kegs sidewall where the couplings would be attached, he made it smaller in diameter then the coupling. So now I can attach things (i.e., pipe nipples, thermometers ....) to the outside of the keg, but I can't attach anything to the coupling from the inside because the hole on the inside of the keg wall is too small. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to enlarge (ream) the opening of the hole from the inside of the keg without messing up the threads on the coupling? I thought there might be some type of reaming tool that I could use to enlarge it, but it would have to be tough enough to penetrate SS. How about a large countersink bit on a short profile drill? Thanks Michael Hackney Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:58:08 -0500 From: "The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty" <mikey at swampgas.com> Subject: re: Basic Stamp for RIMS? Scott <sejose at pacbell.net> wrote: ================= Hello! I am now interested in circulating my mash, and am researching RIMS. Someone at work suggested I use a Basic Stamp as my controller, rather than a PID. Anyone doing this? Otherwise, where can I go online to look at PIDs and try to get a handle on what they are all about? As you can tell, I am new to the RIMS idea, but am eager to get my efficiency up. Source for heating elements, relays, PIDs? ================= Instead of the Stamp, I'd consider using a BX-24 from NetMedia (http://www.netmedia.com). For the same price you get a much more capable chip -- faster, more memory, A/D conversion, and floating point. The latter two are important to a PID app, though strictly speaking you could get away without floating point. The language used is sort of VB-esque. Support is good. No affiliation, but I do a good bit of robotics stuff, and believe me, the BX-24 is the way to go. PID, by the way, is an algorithm, not a piece of hardware. I think you mean to refer to a "PID controller". You will want to implement a PID algorithm on the controlling micro -- or maybe just a simple setpoint/deadband will work. Do a google search on "Proportional-Integral-Derivative" to get a decent description of the algorithm itself. Hope that helps -- tafKaks ==== Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web: http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:29:28 -0400 From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com> Subject: Phoam Control With all this discussion of late regarding controlling foam from kegs, it seems like a good time to announce the introduction of a new product that addresses this very issue. "Phil's Phoam Phixer" is a long clamp that constricts the serving hose which provides adjustable back pressure with the turn of two thumb screws. It essentially lets you "dial in" your desired level of foam. The key is that constricting the hose over a long length gives back pressure without the turbulence that causes foaming. The pilot production run was given away at this years "Beer and Sweat" Party in Cincy as door prizes. I will start a production run later this week. The pricing has yet to solidify, but it should not be much. Oh, it is stainless steel for you guys who really like that - you know who you are. Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com Free shipping for orders greater than $35 and East of the Mighty Miss. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:57:37 -0600 From: "Mike Racette" <mike.racette at hydro-gardens.com> Subject: Hamms Beer Clone I don't think there are any hops in Hamms beer, but one time in college we survived an entire 2 week spring break living on nothing but Hamms Sandwiches, so there must be something in there besides water. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:38:39 -0700 From: Mark Alfaro <malfaro at qcpi.com> Subject: RE: Basic Stamp used for RIMS? In HBD 4063, Scott Jose asks: where can I go online to look at PIDs and try to get a handle on what they are all about? As you can tell, I am new to the RIMS idea, but am eager to get my efficiency up. Source for heating elements, relays, PIDs? Heater Elements - www.grainger.com (I use Grainger P/N 2E768) This element is rated for 6000 watts at 240 volts, but I run it at 120volts which gives me a 1500 watt output that is distributed along 88 inches of heater element. You need this low watt density to avoid the possibility of scorching the wort. I have never had any wort scorching even at the lowest flow rate. PID Controllers, Relays, Heatsinks - www.omega.com (I use P/N CN8590-DC1 on one RIMS and P/N CN132 on the second) For a relay, I use 45 amp SSR's with heatsinks on both RIMS. The max load I switch is 12.5 amps and a 45 amp SSR may be overkill, but the relay doesn't even get warm in operation. The Omega PID's are occasionally available on eBay which is where I got the CN132 brand new for $100.00 vs $168.00 from Omega. Hope this helps. Feel free to email me offline if you have any other questions. Regards, Mark Alfaro Chula Vista, CA 1950, 262.1 AR Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:12:15 -0700 From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com> Subject: Good Eats Hi, Did anyone else watch the Good Eats episode on brewing last night? I thought it did pretty good for a 30 minute show. Some of the introductory brewing practices made me shudder a bit, but over all they seemed sound. I only noticed that I thought was 1 mistake. Alton Brown said that adding hops at the end of the boil was called Dry Hopping. Even though he was using whole hops, I thought Dry Hopping was adding whole hops to the fermenter. Nils Hedglin Sacramento, CA [1978.7, 275.3] Apparent Rennerian PS-Has a new text limitation been added to the list? The last few messages I've sent have been bounced back because the text line is longer than 80 characters. I don't remember having to format it like that before. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:50:53 -0400 From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu> Subject: Beer line calcs Okay, I can't take it any more. I have to decloak and post something on this discussion of flow in beer lines even though it means I'll be pelted by spam for the next few months. I thank Dave Burley for bringing up this discussion. But I read some statements that just plain aren't true on today's HBD: Sven Pfitt , DRTEETE , Andrew Nix wrote that somehow you would get a situation where the beer just inside the fully open faucet would be under a fairly large pressure, using Svens text because he actually put numbers to what they were all saying: >presume that 1/4in hose drops 0.6lb / ft and you use 6ft of hose, you will drop 3.6psi off your beer from the time it enters the hose , until it exits at the tap. If your keg is at 10psi, you still have 6.4psi as the beer comes out of the tap. < This just isn't true. Just inside the faucet, the psig IS ZERO (pounds per square inch gauge). Let's also drop the discussion of atmospheric pressure right now, I'm assuming nobody is brewing on Mt. Everest, so there is no need to delve into absolute pressure discussions or to even bring atmospheric pressure into the picture. With a constant size tubing back to the keg, the pressure drop will be LINEAR. There will be no "sudden pressure drop at the tap" or "increasing the acceleration of the flowing beer" , the flow will be steady with a constant line ID because the beer is for our purposes non-compressible and the cross sectional area of the tubing is constant along the path. Where Sven, the good DR, and Drew are getting hung is on this idea of a 'balanced' system. The thing to remember is that THE UNDERLYING GOAL of a balanced system is to have the beer pour at a relatively slow rate to prevent rapid pressure drop along the flow path and beer that crashes into the glass and foam there. For 1/4" ID tubing at that ideal flowrate (and I'll admit I don't know what it is, maybe 3 oz/second?) you'll get a pressure drop of 0.6 psig/ft of tubing as a rule of thumb. This is the goal for that size tubing. As the equation above shows, 0.6 psi/ft does not add up over 6 feet to equal the 12 psig in the keg. Instead, you'll get 2 psi/ft along the tubing (12 psig/6 feet=2) , and MUCH FASTER FLOW. This would be a bad situation resulting in beer foaming in the line as the pressure drops rapidly and the beer flies violently into the glass. The point here is that the beer will find it's own equilibrium point where the frictional loss to the tubing will equal the total pressure in the keg. The faster the flow, the higher the drag of the tubing on the beer until the drag equals the keg pressure. If someone wants to prove this to themselves, put a bunch of T's along your beer line and screw in pressure gauges. You'll see the pressure drop along the path in a linear fashion, until it exits the line at 0 psi. And then, reading on, I see Andrew Nix write: <If the hose were long enough, the pressure drop would be so high that the beer would not flow.> That blew my mind, especially since Drew works with turbulent flow for his PhD work I would have assumed he had a reasonable knowledge of fluid mechanics! Again, I think he's getting hung up on the constant assumed for frictional loss (0.6 psig/ft) given above for 1/4 inch ID tubing. To illustrate that this can not be the case, consider taking the length to an extreme. If we had 1000 feet of tubing, we wouldn't get 600 psi pushing back against a 12 psi keg, right? No, of course not. You'd have 12 psi loss over the length of the tubing, or 0.012 psi/ft. This is lower than the 0.6 psi/ft GOAL for a balanced system, but the beer would still flow, JUST SLOWER. It would flow about 1/50 the rate that we would like to see when we fill up a pint. You'd have to stand at the tap for about 250 seconds instead of about 5 seconds. The balanced system calculations shown on The Kegman's page , are a great resource for setting up your beer system (No Affiliation), and what's interesting to me is that the equation he uses looks to be basically Bernoulli's equation, which is the single equation that most students taking Fluids eat, live and breath. It is (for one tubing size): Pressure = Length*Resistance coefficient + (Height change)*0.5 When you break down Bernoulli's equation for a properly pouring beer system (God I love applying engineering to beer!) , my guess is you could simplify it to the formula above and the coeffients in the table. For plastic beer tubing: Tubing psi loss / ft of tubing 3/16" I.D 2.7 1/4"I.D. 0.7 5/16" I.D. 0.17 3/8" I.D. 0.11 1/2"I.D. 0.025 The height change term is also in Bernoulli's, but to be exact it would be closer to the hydrostatic pressure of water, 0.43 psi / ft depth, instead of 0.5 psi/ft . But it's close enough. It's pretty neat stuff but like Dave said in his original posting, it's more important to have a flow path that's clean with no restrictions like a partially open valve. Brew on, Todd Snyder Buffalo, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:35:32 -0500 From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net> Subject: RE: mash/lauter tun Brian asks: "Does anyone have any idea how many lbs of grain I can put into the 10G Gott picnic cooler? I have not gotten good extraction or wort clarification out of current lauter set-up. It has 4 copper tubes for a manifold in the bottom of the cooler. Is there a general consensus on Polarware vs converted keg for mash tun?" I have both 10 and 15 gallon Polarware pots with false bottoms for mashing. I can get about 23/24 pounds of grain in the 10 gallon Polarware with the Polarware false bottom installed using a 1.33 qt/lb ratio. I would think you can expect about the same in your 10 gallon Gott cooler, +/- 1 or 2 lbs. In the 15 gallon pot I can get about 32 lbs of grain. There is about one gallon of liquid under the false bottom in the 10 gallon Polarware pot. I also use a Bazooka T screen under the False Bottom to help keep out the small husks and grains that get through. It keeps my pump happy. I wrap a hot water tank insulated blanket around the mash tun when I'm brewing to help stabilize the temperature. I use a converted keg for the boil kettle, and although it works fine, and was affordable, I find it heavy and difficult to clean. Of course, I brew inside and have to carry it outside to clean it. I bought a 15 gallon Volorath pot on ebay to convert into an electric boiler when I get around to it. It is much lighter and will be easy to clean. I guess I'm just getting old and lazy. By the way, my system is an all electric HERMS. Click on the following link and you will go to my photo album on Nikonnet.com. (You may have to cut and paste it in the address bar as its 3 lines long) It's a guest link only, and you won't be able to change anything, just look. I have pictures of the mash tun with the screen and false bottom installed, plus the rest of the Brewery. Bill Tobler Lake Jackson, TX (1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian http://home1.nikonnet.com/servlet/com.arcsoft.LoginNew?com=arcsoftBanner&awp =index3.html&DIRECT=&USERNAME=wctobler&PASSWORD=nikoneditor_1409905725&WHO=m emberguest Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:42:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Basic Stamp used for RIMS? Scott was asking bout using the Basic Stamp MCU in a RIMS app: >I am now interested in circulating my mash, and am >researching RIMS. >Someone at work suggested I use a Basic Stamp as my >controller, rather than >a PID. Anyone doing this? Otherwise, where can I go >online to look at PIDs and try to get a handle on >what they are all about? As you can tell, I am >new to the RIMS idea, but am eager to get my >efficiency up. Source for >heating elements, relays, PIDs? 1. The Basic Stamp adn OOpic are examples of several small but reatively powerful microcontroller units (MCU) popular with experimenters for robotics, etc. They are tiny (less than 6 in2) computers that can be programmed with a PC and include multiple IO's with such features as Analog-to-Digital (AD or A2D) converters, Pulse Width Modulation (PWM), serial in/out (connect to LCD, for example), timers, etc. 2. A PID controller uses Proportional control with Integral and Derivative functions to control a process such as maintaining a mash temperature. In the case of a RIMS application, the Proportioal control would increase or decrease the amount of heat output by the element proportionally to the deviation from the setpoint. The Derivative function monitors the rate at which the temperature is approaching the setpoint, and adjusts the control output cycle to minimize over- or undershooting. PID's can control temps to within one degree F. of the setpoint. 3. A Basic Stamp or OOpic COULD be used to build a PID control. Besides the MCU (OOpic complete for $49, check out http://www.oopic.com/ for info), you would need a Solid State Relay that could handle the load, input devices (thermocouple or RTD and keypad) and a monitor (LCD panel). Then you would have to write the program to input a setpoint byte IO connected to keypad), monitor the temp (AD input connected to temp probe), control the output (PWM output connected to SSR), and update the dipslay (serial or byte output connected to LCD). You would also have to come up with internal boolean logic (if mashtemp < setpoint then heatoutput = true) and arithmetic functions (x degree rise over y seconds = z output cycle) to begin to compete with a PID that you can buy for about $200. 4. RIMS heating elements can be found at Home Depot or any well stocked plumbing supply house. You can get Solid state relays from any of several surplus electronics suppliers like BG Micro http://www.bgmicro.com/ or All Electronics http://www.allcorp.com/ For PID's try Grainger or Omega. Also search the Digest for PID, and check Zymico's site http://www.zymico.com/ Hope that helps, Kent Fletcher brewing in So Cal Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:46:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net> Subject: polarware pot brewkettle false bottom Howdy All I recently acquired for a great price a 10 gallon PolarWare pot. You know the one with the valve spigot and thermometer port. I'm looking for a good false bottom or filter (ie: bazooka screen or similar). Do any of you use a filter/false bottom with this pot when used as a brew-kettle and can offer suggestions? Bazooka screen and easy-masher would work but only with a good deal of modification. Any of you using these care to detail your mods? Steven St.Laurent 403forbidden.net [580.2,181.4] Rennerian Return to table of contents
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