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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  White bottle scum (ammonia) ("Al Boyce")
  magnetic pumps (b shockley)
  Drilling Stainless Steel ("John Maylone")
  What is RIMS ? ("Steve Alexander")
  cutting holes in SS (Alan McKay)
  re: Homebrew for Sale? (BrewBooks)
  Hop Freshness ("Rogers, Mike")
  re:  Drilling Holes in SS ("Jim Yeagley")
  Re: Homebrew for Sale? (Ray Daniels)
  Brass and Counter pressure bottle fillers ("Dan Listermann")
  Re:  Food Grade Paint? ("Dennis Collins")
  RE:drilling holes in SS ("Czerpak, Pete")
  RE: Drilling holes in SS ("Wayne Holder")
  RE:  Shipping to Competitions ("Don Lake")
  Herbs ("Eric R. Lande")
  re: Drilling Holes in SS (Rama Roberts)
  Drilling Holes in SS ("Christian Rausch")
  pH and Astringency (AJ)
  Teach A Friend To Homebrew Day ("Gary Glass")
  Big Holes (mohrstrom)


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Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 23:30:38 -0500
From: "Al Boyce" <aboyce at mn.rr.com>
Subject: White bottle scum (ammonia)

I have removed labels from bottles with ammonia in the past, and on some of
these bottles I find that there is a white powdery residue that remains -
resistant to ordinary rinsing and rinsing with iodophor.  Has anyone else
experienced this?  What IS it, and how have you removed it?

Thanks!

 - Al Boyce
Minneapolis, MN
(unknown Rennarian coordinates)



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Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:21:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: b shockley <indythedog at yahoo.com>
Subject: magnetic pumps

Well, on my last brewing experience, one of my
fittings came loose from my hot liquor tank while I
was elevating it.  Scalding water came pouring out
onto my stomach.  I suffered some beautiful second
degree burns.  I bit the bullet and finished my
brewing holding a package of frozen peas to soothe my
tender stomach.

Anyway, I do not want to do this again and I now want
to invest in a pump for my brewing system.  What brand
of pump do y'all recommend, also what type of inlet/
outlet should I look for?

Thanks
Bill
(The creator of Adversity Ale)



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Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 23:53:06 -0700
From: "John Maylone" <mrkoala at netptc.net>
Subject: Drilling Stainless Steel


Jay,

I bought a step drill to drill the SS in my brewpot.  That was a 13/16"
or 7/8" hole.  The step drill worked flawlessly with a small locator hole
drilled first to keep it in place.  The down side is that the SOB cost me
something in the neighborhood of $40........I sprung for one in case I
ever went the TMS conical route, which I may well do if they ever produce
a good stand kit for one.

Regards,

John Maylone
Tollhouse, California



Jay Spies said:

I've heard several options, but was wondering if anyone had any "tried
and true" methods of 
creating the hole(s).  




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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 04:15:23 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: What is RIMS ? 

I largely agree with Dion Hollenbeck's description of RIMS

>1) Do you recirculate during the entire mash?
>2) Does your system heat the grist with hot water?
>
>If you can answer "yes" to both of these questions, then you have a RIMS.

except a RIMS is really heated with hot water...pre-wort...sweet-wort as the
mash proceeds and not just hot water additions as in a classic infusion.

The etymology of 'decoct' carries the notion of boiling which is it's
distinguishing feature.   Infusion describes the steeping of the grist which
is common to all mashing and misses the introduction of hot water as heating
agent bit.

I'd suggest that RIMS systems heats with wort and doesn't distinguishable
use infusion  - RWMS - but then there's the catchy acronym req.

 -S




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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 06:20:20 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: cutting holes in SS


Jay,

Just use a 7/8 hole saw.  It attaches to your drill, and it drills
a small hole first which then guides you through.  Milwaukee is a 
good brand and make sure you get a bi-metal bit.  It will be a lot
easier if you have a drill press and a friend or two to hold the
hopper while drilling, but you can do it with a hand drill.
I had my welder drill my SS mashtun with me holding the pot, but
my alu pot I did myself with the help of a friend.  Admittedly alu
is a heck of a lot easier than SS.

cheers,
 -Alan

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site 


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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:00:24 -0400
From: BrewBooks <BrewBooks at raudins.com>
Subject: re: Homebrew for Sale?

Charley Burns asked about a local pizza joint selling beer from a
Brew-Your-Own style shop:

That depends.  We have a local BYO shop which also functions as a
microbrewery.  For local restaurants, they act as sort of a contract
brewer and therefore it is all legal.  You mentioned it was on draft. 
Our BYO doesn't offer kegging to its regular customers, just bottling I
believe.  I would guess it is on the up-and-up, but you never know.  Go
enjoy another pint quickly, in case it isn't.

Glenn
Reprints of Old Brewing & Distilling Books
http://www.raudins.com/BrewBooks/


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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 08:14:37 -0400
From: "Rogers, Mike" <mike.rogers at eds.com>
Subject: Hop Freshness

Hop freshness.  How do you really know?  According to all literature and
Pro*Mash, the loss curve is fast and extensive, especially in leaf form.  A
10-15% loss is extensive and can really make that final difference in a
batch...  The quality and abundance of ingredients now available to home
brewers is excellent, however, hop acidity continues to be a concern for me.
The typical response I get when asking fellow brewers is the obvious one -
know your retail source and ensure the pack is tight.  Do any clubs measure
acidity levels?  What's the process/tools for non commercial measurement?
Can we lobby to have the manufacturers imprint the manufactured date (as in
yeast)?  

Mike Rogers
Cass River Homebrewers - Mid Michigan
www.hbd.org/cassriverhomebrewers
[76.4, 2.6] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 08:20:04 -0400
From: "Jim Yeagley" <jyeag at core.com>
Subject: re:  Drilling Holes in SS

Jay Spies asked for info about a contraption he was told of.

Just so happens I've been discussing the same thing at work for the past
couple days.  It's called a "Greenley" or some other spelling that sounds
the same.  I've been told they work great on sheet metal, but I have serious
doubts about their abilities to crunch through stainless.  I have a nibbler
that fit over the stainless I need to cut, and using both hands, I couldn't
cut thru.

The hole would be very clean cut if it works.  You can also get different
shapes, ie square.

Jim Yeagley



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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 06:46:31 -0500
From: Ray Daniels <raydan at ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: Homebrew for Sale?

In some communities a Brew on Premises must have a commercial brewing 
license---that's the way they are authorized to make beer.  I know the 
local one here in Chicago was legally making beer for sale before they went 
the way of most BOPs---although that was the owners' product, not the 
customers'.  Whether the beer made by homebrew customers at any BOP is 
legal for sale, I couldn't say.  At the very least, a distributor would 
need to be involved somewhere along the way . . . but then some breweries 
have distribution licenses as well, so you never know.  In short, it is 
possible although still unlikely that this was on the up and up.

Anyone who is tempted to "test the waters" with their homebrew with an eye 
to maybe becoming a commercial brewer someday should resist the urge to 
wing it.  Remember that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms---the 
Federal agency that regulates the production and sale of beer and other 
alcoholic bevs---has a short sense of humor and a very long memory.  If you 
are cited for illegal sale as a homebrewer, just how good would you say 
your chances of getting a commercial license would be?

Just call me Dr. Doom and Gloom . . .


Ray Daniels
Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer
Director, Brewers Publications
ray at aob.org
773-665-1300

Call Customer Service at 888-822-6273 to subscribe or order individual 
magazines.

For more information, see www.beertown.org



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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:40:28 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Brass and Counter pressure bottle fillers

: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com> relates a BYO article regarding
brass, beer and oxidized flavors.  The CounterPhil's stem is made of brass
but it is plated with electroless nickel before being chrome plated.  The
electroless process plates the inside as well as the outside of parts so the
beer passing through this filler should not contact brass.  I am well known
for a sensitivity to oxidation.  I had a steam beer last night that I
counterpressure filled about two years ago that had taken a Saison turn, but
was not oxidized.  That being said, I am less than convinced that a
momentary exposure to brass will put the twang to beer.  The writer of the
BOY article strikes me as a bit alarmist.  I don't know where he gets the
idea that beer will erode chrome plating.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com
Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.







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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:43:45 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Re:  Food Grade Paint?

Like any homebrewer, I've often picked up cool things that have nothing to
do with brewing and asked myself how I could somehow fit it into my brewery.
Sometimes it's worth the trouble, but sometimes not.  In reading Jon
Sandlin's post about food grade paint, I couldn't help but think that trying
to make a concrete or cast iron boil pot work by painting it falls into the
"not worth the trouble" category.

It could be that the pot we are referring to is something large (and free
probably) and a suitable material in that size is just too expensive.  The
fact that it's free or at least cheap is tempting, but paint
is...well...paint.  It's not permanent, it's porous, it's soft, and when it
fails it flakes off, and Murphy says this will happen in the middle of a
boil, exposing iron or concrete to boiling wort.  If it's a big batch,
that's a lot of beer to take chances with.  Any comments from the chemists
out there about iron and concrete in contact with hot wort?  Then you have
to worry about repainting, inspecting it before every batch, always being
extra careful when stirring so as not to scratch the sides, etc.  You may
even find that the paint is pretty expensive, I bought some epoxy paint
through work once and it was over $100 gallon.  All of a sudden, that pot
isn't so cheap any more.

It just sounds like a marginal idea at best.  But that's just me.

Why not see if you can sell this pot and use the money to offset the cost of
another pot in a suitable material?  Just my 2 cents.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com




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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:59:30 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: RE:drilling holes in SS

Jay asks about drilling holes in his new homemade CCF: 

"The guy at Home Despot said that plumbing shops have 
this little contraption that works by drilling a small hole on center and
then 
attaching two circular clamp/cutter thingys which screw together and punch
the 
hole. " 

I would use precisely what the HOme Depot guys mentions.  I used one to
cut/punch a hole in my converted Sanket for the bottom drain.  Other option
is a stepped-type drill bit.  If you decide this method, use some cutting
oil to save your bit.

Other good news is that I did my first batch after 3 months off from brewing
just last week.  ESB with a bunch of mash hops and White Labs ESB yeast.

Pete Czerpak
albany, NY


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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:18:01 -0700
From: "Wayne Holder" <zymie at charter.net>
Subject: RE: Drilling holes in SS

Jay asks about drilling holes in a conical hopper.

I would recommend a Unibit, or Step drill. The conduit punch works OK, 
but I've found that it can leave a burr on the wall of the cone.

For best results, use a Dremel or similar tool to polish up the edges of 
the racking port hole.

Enjoy!

Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
http://www.zymico.com



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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:54:00 -0400
From: "Don Lake" <donlake at btitelecom.net>
Subject: RE:  Shipping to Competitions

The Central Florida Home Brewers Club had a very recent shipping
problem.  On October 1st we carefully packed and shipped 46 entries in 3
boxes to Houston for the Dixie Cup.  Fortunately, most of our brewers
registered online (a new feature for them this year).  Because of that,
the Foam Rangers noticed that our boxes hadn't arrived and called us.
We researched it through UPS and their records indicated that all three
boxes were damaged and were being held.
 
After more work on our part, we finally convinced UPS to deliver
whatever they had, which they finally did yesterday (over a week late).
Last night the Foam Rangers unpacked them and said that the boxes were
bruised but no bottles were broken.
 
The entries were delivered 11 days after the deadline (which the Foam
Rangers were gracious in accepting).  The worse part was that our
entries sat in a hot Houston UPS warehouse pasteurizing.
 
I'm not sure which is more "steamed", the beer or the brewers!
 
Don Lake
Orlando, FL




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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:59:26 -0400
From: "Eric R. Lande" <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Herbs

As the end of the season is upon us and the herb garden will have to be
harvested soon,  I was thinking of brewing a basil rosemary ale.  There
was an article is a recent BYO mag. about brewing with herbs, but it was
painfully lacking in specifics.  The chart that was provided showed that
rosemary is used for flavor and basil is used for bittering, but I have
no idea how to use them or the quantities needed.  Theoretically, if the
basil provides the bittering then I shouldn't need any hops; in which
case I would need to know how to extract the bitterness (eg.  boiling? 
how long?).  Has anyone had any experience with herbs?  Any advice would
be most helpful.


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA


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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:33:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: re: Drilling Holes in SS

Jay Spies wrote:
Having recently acquired Tolodo Metal Spinning's 12.2 gallon SS hopper and 
Zymie's Konical Kit and Bottom Dump Valve (great, solid pieces of hardware, 
BTW.....), I am in need of the most effective way to drill the 7/8" holes in 
the side and bottom to mount the valves.

Jay,
I'm still sitting on the fence about purchasing a SS hopper from TMS, partially 
for that reason. I'd be interested in hearing what others have come up with, 
but here's how I planned to tackle it- which worked moderately well when I had 
to make a similar size  semi-round hole in my SS sink.

 - use a punch to mark the center of the soon-to-be hole. This is critical, 
otherwise your drill bit will skip around all over the place.

 - use a small drill bit (but not so small that it may break if it binds) and 
start drilling right on your punch mark. Apply water as you drill to help 
prevent overheating. 

 - once you're through, repeat with a slightly larger bit. Keep doing this 
until you have the hole the size you want. 

If you don't have drill bits all the way up to 7/8", as I didn't, and its okay 
if the hole doesn't have perfectly round edges, you can use the "rotozip" 
method as I did. Once you've used your largest drill bit to punch through, keep 
the bit in the hole and start using it to saw away at the edges of the hole by 
applying lateral pressure. This will start removing material from the inside 
edges of the hole, but its a slow and imperfect process. Keep doing this as 
smoothly as you can until you have your larger hole. It may help if you scratch 
a template for your hole perimeter before starting, especially if it needs to 
have reasonably round edges. 

If the Konical Kit has gaskets on either side, and plumbing through the hole 
(which I'm guessing it does), this method should work for you. 

- --rama roberts
san francisco bay area




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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:24:36 -0400
From: "Christian Rausch" <christian at rauschbiercompany.com>
Subject: Drilling Holes in SS

Conduit punches work real well for punching clean bur free holes in SS. I
have used this method for many holes and have never had an issue. The nice
thing is the fact that you need only a small pilot hole to get started. Much
easer than trying to drill a 7/8" hole. Hope this helps Jay.

Cheers!
Christian Rausch




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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:46:23 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: pH and Astringency

I'm afraid I must agree with Steve that the pH/phenol extraction thing 
is probably another one of those that is accepted in the brewing 
industry/hobby as gospel. At least I can't recall seeing mention of any 
reports of quantitative relationships between phenol extraction and pH. 
There must be some observations relating perceived astringency to 
sparging practice, though.

It should be a simple matter to  check out quantitatively, at least 
grossly, and I'd love to do it except that all lab stuff went into boxes 
in the basement when they tore my wife's kitchen (= my lab) apart. But 
the end is in sight! I don't have water or electricity in my new lab 
(over the new garage - no girls, except brewsters, allowed) yet but I do 
have walls, floor, and ceiling. I might be back in business in a month 
or so.  I'm at the point where I'm allowing my thougths to turn to such 
things and this sounds like a neat experiment to do.

A.J.




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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:07:46 -0600
From: "Gary Glass" <gary at aob.org>
Subject: Teach A Friend To Homebrew Day

The AHA's 4th Annual Teach A Friend To Homebrew Day scheduled for Saturday
November 2 is rapidly approaching.

This is your chance to give back to the homebrew community and the local
homebrew shop by adding to the brewing ranks.  Just think about how good it
will feel to educate some of those sorry souls, who as of yet have not
discovered the joys of homebrewing.  Think of it as homebrewing activism.

Register your site by October 23 and the AHA will send you free copies of
our 24 page beginners guide to homebrewing, Zymurgy for Beginners.  Register
your site at http://www.beertown.org/AHA/teachbrew/teachday.htm.  Be sure to
come back after the 2nd to let us know how many participants you had.

If you haven't checked out the AHA Pub Discount Program lately, we've added
a few more pubs and expect to keep adding more, so check back frequently at
http://www.beertown.org/pubs.htm.  I think I saved the cost of the $38
membership within three or four visits to various Rock Bottom locations
around here (there is one conveniently located between Boulder and Denver
that made for a nice stop on the way home from sorting Great American Beer
Festival entries down in Denver).  The servers aren't always familiar with
the program, but they've always been courteous with me and I've always
gotten the discount after the server talked with the manager.  Be sure to
tip your servers on the based on the pre-discounted bill!

Cheers!

Gary Glass, Project Coordinator
Association of Brewers
888-U-CAN-BREW
(303) 447-0816 x 121
gary at aob.org
www.beertown.org

Saturday November 2, 2002 is Teach A Friend To Homebrew Day. Register your
site now at http://www.beertown.org/AHA/teachbrew/teachday.htm.




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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 21:42:01 -0400
From: mohrstrom at core.com
Subject: Big Holes

Jay, concocting his very own cylindro-conical, asks:
> I am in need of the most effective way to drill the 7/8" 
> holes in the side and bottom to mount the valves.

Jay - get thee a Unibit.  These are drill bits that look like a stepped cone, 
and are handy for drilling large(r) hole in about any thin-walled material.  
Cost you about $20-25 for an initial investment, but great to have around the 
domicile (but I'm just a fool for tools ...)


Mark in Kalamazoo



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