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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  big holes in stainless (Andrew Larkin)
  re:  Drilling Holes in SS ("Jonathan Royce")
  Re: White bottle scum (ammonia) (Martin_Brungard)
  re: Brass and Counter pressure bottle fillers (Paul Kensler)
  Conical Construction ("Christian Rausch")
  Basil Wit (Chris Collier)
  Measuring Hops Acids (AJ)
  Re: Homebrew for Sale? (Mark Kempisty)
  Magnetic pumps (Demonick)
  Drilling (Road Frog)
  SS driling ("Michael O'Donnell")
  Re: White bottle scum (Cameron LiDestri)
  Drilling Conicals (Chuck Doucette)
  The gospel of mash pH (Kevin Crouch)
  white stuff in clean bottles (Jeff & Ellen)


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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 01:22:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Larkin <aj_larkin at yahoo.com>
Subject: big holes in stainless

A unibit is a good way to go.  A couple of tips
for drilling stainless:  (1) Press hard and use
very low rpm to avoid work-hardening the metal.
(2) Use a good quality cutting oil.




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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 04:46:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jonathan Royce" <jtroyce at directvinternet.com>
Subject: re:  Drilling Holes in SS

Jim Yeagley wrote:
Just so happens I've been discussing the same thing at
work for the past couple days.  It's called a
"Greenley" or some other spelling that sounds
the same.  I've been told they work great on sheet
metal, but I have serious doubts about their abilities
to crunch through stainless. 

Actually, they are called "Greenleaf punches", but this
is just like calling facial tissues, "Kleenex".
Greenleaf is a company that makes these devices, which
are generally known as "Knockout Punches". You can see
a bunch of examples on http://www.mcmaster.com. Just do
a search for "Round Hole Knockout Punches". It sounds
from comments like those made by Pete Czerpak that this
method will work on SS--and the knockout punches do
produce very professional, burr-free holes (at least on
the sheet metal electrical enclosures that we have been
building at work).

The downside to knockout punches is that they are
relatively expensive, and they require a hole to be
drilled anyway to make room for the threaded stud. This
is best done with a Unibit (AKA step drill), and as
mentioned by John Maylone, these devices are already
pretty expensive. However, IMO the step bit plus
knockout will produce the most professional-looking
hole. (IOW, you get what you pay for).

Good luck! I'm interested to hear which method you
chose and how it worked out.


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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:43:08 -0400
From: Martin_Brungard at URSCorp.com
Subject: Re: White bottle scum (ammonia)

Al Boyce observed a white coating on bottles after an ammonia solution
soak.

This is just a hard water deposit on the glass.  Ammonia creates a very
basic solution in water.  The magnesium and calcium that were happily in
solution in the tap water were forced to precipitate from the solution and
plate on anything the solution touched.  The same thing happens when using
a bleach solution with moderately hard to hard waters.  Keep in mind that
hard water deposits also end up in your fermenting vessel or any other
brewing implement if you use bleach or ammonia solutions and you have
anything other than relatively soft water.

I've found that distilled vinegar is effective at removing the hard water
deposits.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL




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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 06:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Brass and Counter pressure bottle fillers

Dan Listermann said: "I don't know where he gets the
idea that beer will erode chrome plating." in
reference to a recent BYO article and discussion on
brass and beer.

My two cents, for the "what its worth" column:
I have a four-tap system at home and I've noticed that
all of my hardware has lost its chrome plating where
it comes in constant contact with beer.  It is most
noticeable on the tailpieces: the flat part of the
tail - the part inside the nut where the gasket goes -
is completely exposed brass, as is the inside "pipe"
of the tail piece.  The outside is still perfect
looking chrome.

I've often wondered if this would cause off-flavors,
but figured that it must happen to everybody so I
didn't exactly worry about it.  I can't say I detect
any metallic or stale flavors in the beer, but then
again I've never compared the same beer side by side,
dispensed out of exposed brass vs. all-SS or picnic
faucets.


Cheers,
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:00:49 -0400
From: "Christian Rausch" <christian at rauschbiercompany.com>
Subject: Conical Construction

Thanks to Jay Spies for sparking the idea, I have started the process of
constructing a SS Conical fermentation tank. John at Toledo Metal Spinning
was very nice and answered any questions I had. I am constructing a 21.5
Gallon tank. I have a source for welding a sweet aluminum stand for the
tank, and with conduit punches I am going to install the necessary bulk
heads. Does anyone have any ideas for the lid seal? I had thought of maybe
using a bicycle inner tube. For one it could be inflated to ensure a good
seal, but I am not sure how well it can be sanitized. Thanks for any feed
back. If anyone is interested this setup when doing it yourself should save
you about $350 dollars when compaired to purchasing a ready made conical, I
will find out for sure as the project continues.

Cheers!
Christian Rausch




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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:20:22 -0400
From: Chris Collier <CCollier at lanierclothes.com>
Subject: Basil Wit

Eric Lande asks about herb beers.  In particular rosemary and basil.

I recently made a Basil Wit and I thought it turned out quite well.  
I added 1/2 oz of fresh Thai basil and 1/2 oz of regular basil in 
the last 15 mins of the boil with fresh orange peel and coriander.  
It was a big hit with my friends.  The next time I would use a little 
less - maybe 3/4 oz total.  The basil blended well with the wheat and 
the citrusy flavor of the orange.  Obviously, I went for flavor and 
aroma instead of bitterness.  Give it a try and I love to hear the
results.

Chris Collier
Atlanta GA


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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:23:23 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Measuring Hops Acids

Mike Rogers asked about measuring hops acidity levels. The process isn't 
very difficult if you have access to a lab but is otherwize impractical. 
A sample of ground hops is extracted by shaking in toluene for half an 
hour (equipment requirement: shaker and extraction bottle). The extract 
is diluted (equipment requirement: volumetric flasks, graduated 
cylinders) with methanol and the absorbtion measured at three 
ultraviolet wavelengths (equipment requirement: UV or UV/Vis 
spectrophotometer, cuvets). These readings are compared to a 
toluene/methanol blank and the adjusted results stuck into a couple of 
equations which yield the alpha and beta acid contents of the hops.

I still remember a Pils I did with some old Saaz I'd had in the freezer 
for some time. The usual degradation formula predicted that the hops 
would have lost half their acidity and measurement confirmed that indeed 
they had. I calculated the additions based on this. The beer wound up at 
70 IBU, not quite twice what I was shooting for. I still remember one of 
the guys in my club. When he could move his lips again, he uttered the 
single word "crisp" and moved off. Actually, when that batch had lagered 
for about a year it was  darn good.

A.J.

- -- 
A.J. deLange
CT Project Manager
Zeta Associates
10302 Eaton Place
Fairfax, VA 22030
(703) 359 8696
855 0905
ajdel at mindspring.com
Pager Email: 4675963 at skytel.com or go to www.skytel.com for custom replies




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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:29:57 -0400
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Re: Homebrew for Sale?

There is a small chain of pizza shops around Philadelphia, PA that had
draft beer but avoided a
liquor license.  They did so by asking if you wanted a glass of beer but
not charging for it.  It
was BudMillOors so taxes to the point of their getting the keg were
covered.

They have since gotten their licenses and now charge the going rate.

Just my $0.02.

Take care,
Mark






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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 07:41:58 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Magnetic pumps

Whatever pump you end up buying, I suggest a self-priming one.  My
experiences with a small magnetic pump that was NOT self-priming was poor,
and I no longer use it.  One reason to use a pump is to forego the issues
of siphoning.  A non-self-priming pump requires a siphon to get it started.
This topic has come up before and other opinions differ :-)

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:21:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Road Frog <road_frog_run at yahoo.com>
Subject: Drilling

I got a step drill for drill holes in my kegs. Worked
great!  $12 eBay!

Lost in Southern Middle TN,
Glyn Crossno



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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:33:40 -0700
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: SS driling

Ditto this... I used this same setup for going through a Sanke... punch a 
dimple to hold the pilot bit on center and use some cutting oil.  I did it 
with a big hand drill and it took about 3 minutes / hole.

cheers,
mike

At 12:33 AM 10/18/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Jay,
>
>Just use a 7/8 hole saw.  It attaches to your drill, and it drills
>a small hole first which then guides you through.  Milwaukee is a
>good brand and make sure you get a bi-metal bit.  It will be a lot
>easier if you have a drill press and a friend or two to hold the
>hopper while drilling, but you can do it with a hand drill.
>I had my welder drill my SS mashtun with me holding the pot, but
>my alu pot I did myself with the help of a friend.  Admittedly alu
>is a heck of a lot easier than SS.
>
>cheers,
>  -Alan



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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:29:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cameron LiDestri <clidestri at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: White bottle scum


> Subject: White bottle scum

I have all their albums!



=====
 -Cam



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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:08:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chuck Doucette <cdoucette61 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Drilling Conicals

It sounds like John Maylone bought his step drill from
Sears. Check out www.use-enco.com. Navigate to the Hot
Deals page and look at page 75 under cutting tools.
They have a set of three step drills that are titanium
nitride coated for 44.95. They also have individual
ones for much less. This is the way I made the holes
in my 1/2 gal. sankes. I drilled a starter hole,
although the step drill is a self starting one. I
don't know how thick the TMS conicals are, but I was
able to drill two holes without using any cutting oil
or lube. Personally, I would not use a Greenley
chassis punch to cut the hole. They are great for
punching aluminum and light gauge steel chassis, but
they dull very quickly when used on thicker and harder
materials. They are also fairly high priced for
something that will only make one size hole and only
in thin materials.

Just my opinion.

Chuck Doucette
O'Fallon, IL.



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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:27:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching at yahoo.com>
Subject: The gospel of mash pH

Regarding the gospel of pH and astringency,  I have my
own completely unscientific anecdotal evidence to add
to the discussion. I average around 100 ppm HC03 in my
brewing water, which if left untreated will yield a
mash pH to well over 6. For years I didn't treat it
because it sounded like too much work, but I never
noticed an astringency that could be considered a
defect.  When I began treating my water with Gypsum
and pre-boiling it, I noticed that my mash pH came
down to around 5.6 and my beers do seem to have a
fuller, richer flavor.  This tells me that what is
commonly refered to as astringency might be more of a
masking effect rather than a perceptible defect.   

I did, however, push this astringency well beyond the
threshold once. My buddy and I brewed a Scotch ale a
few years back, and for some reason (possibley poor Ph
and ion levels) we got a terrible yield.  Instead of
accepting less beer, we ran down to the shop and got
some more grain and mashed this grain WITH the old
grain, figuring it still had more goodness to give up.
We came up with, not only a new style of beer, 
"Floor-cleaner", but an entirely new category
"Multiple Use Beers".  The beer tasted lik Minwax, I
mean the phenoloic aroma was so strong you could smell
it through the airlock. The reason why I believe this
was tannin related and not an infection, is that over
time (1 year) the beer brightened up and the
astringency disappeared.  

Kevin Crouch
Vancouver, WA



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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:53:05 -0400
From: Jeff & Ellen <JeffNGladish at ij.net>
Subject: white stuff in clean bottles

Alan Boyce wrote, "I have removed labels from bottles with ammonia in the 
past, and on some of these bottles I find that there is a white powdery 
residue that remains - resistant to ordinary rinsing and rinsing with 
iodophor.  Has anyone else experienced this?"

Yeah, what is that stuff?  Could it be residue from the metallic foil 
wrappers on the necks of some of the bottles?

It doesn't seem to change the flavor of the beer, but it is a major concern 
when bottling a hard-brewed beer.

Jeff Gladish, Tampa, FL



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