HOMEBREW Digest #4072 Mon 21 October 2002

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  RE: Drilling Holes in SS ("Wayne Holder")
  holes ("greg man")
  RE: Conical Construction ("Steve Jones")
  horsey (?) smell and flavor (darrell.leavitt)
  re: White Bottle Scum ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Re: Homebrew for Sale? ("Chad Gould")
  Brass and Counterpressure bottle fillers ("Dan Listermann")
  re: CPBF Oxidation ("Steve Alexander")
  Bike inner tubes as seal... (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51 at ICCNET.COM>
  Berliner Weiss, and Good Eats (Eric Jacobs)
  Steam RIMS and BOILING are DIFFERENT (Bill & Kazuko Macher)
  Holes in SS ("John Maylone")
  overnight mashing revisited ("Tom & Dana Karnowski")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:52:50 -0700 From: "Wayne Holder" <zymie at charter.net> Subject: RE: Drilling Holes in SS Jonathan Royce writes: Actually, they are called "Greenleaf punches", but this is just like calling facial tissues, "Kleenex". Uhhh... Only if you actually called them Kleenecksf. Greenlee tools, a division of Greenlee-Textron, makes chassis, or knockout punches. Ideal tools also makes "Greenlee" punches. I still recommend a step-drill for the conical hoppers. Wayne Holder AKA Zymie Long Beach CA http://www.zymico.com Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 01:18:59 -0400 From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com> Subject: holes Jay, concocting his very own cylindro-conical, asks: >I am in need of the most effective way to drill the 7/8" holes in the side >and bottom to mount the valves. Everyone here is giving alot of good advice about how to drill the holes. However if your a lazy bum like me then buying a tool to use only a few times is not really worth it. No matter how much you like adding to your arsenal of toys. Oh the point thats right I almost forgot, toledo metal spinning will drill the holes for you if you ask them though it will cost extra of course. But for about the same as it would cost to buy those fun gadgets. Though i just thought that if your order is "on it's way" this info. will do you no good, sorry!!!! I asked them myself when I was about to order one. thought you all should know................. Buy the way my name is greg getman this is my first post but i am a faithfull reader of the hbd............. Everyone who contributes here is great, you guys are the best. All the coments, questions, debates, the good the bad and the ugly. All this helps the wise readers to make better beer.......... just sign me.....................not the fantom, poor guy :( hahahahahahaha Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 09:02:35 -0400 From: "Steve Jones" <stjones1 at chartertn.net> Subject: RE: Conical Construction Christian Rausch asks about options for sealing the top of his conical from TMS. Check out www.allorings.com. They have orings in silicone that are up to 26" dia, 1/4" thick. Steve stjones1 at chartertn.net Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:29:04 -0400 From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu Subject: horsey (?) smell and flavor I just bottled a Scottish Ale .... and it smelled and tasted a bit , well... horsey,..earthy...not nasty, but any stronger and I think it could be. Is this a flavor that anyone has had from wlp028 Edinburgh ale yeast...or might it be an infection? ..Darrell Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:38:03 -0400 From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com> Subject: re: White Bottle Scum I have also encountered this white deposit when removing bottle labels. I've noticed that it occurs if I leave the bottles sitting in the ammonia solution for an extended period of time. If I deal with the bottles within 3-4 days it doesn't have time to build up. I guess it would also depend on the concentration of your solution. Mine is fairly low. I have a full size trash can out behind my brewery (a room behind the detached garage). I rinse out bottles as they are finished & move them out to the trash can. When it's about 1/2 full, I fill it with water and add about a cup & a 1/2 of non-sudsing ammonia. Many paper labels just float off, the rest come off easily when scraped with a kitchen knife & hit with a scrubbie. If I start the process during the week and then remove & clean the bottles on the weekend, the white deposit doesn't seem to build up. But I have seen it if I let them sit for several weeks. This shouldn't be a problem, cause I know none of you have a problem with procrastination.....I certainly don't. Maybe I can convince you of that, my wife certainly won't buy it. I generally avoid dealing with the metallic labels since they are so much more difficult to remove and it's easy to get enough bottles with paper labels. If you don't generate enough, just ask your friends to save some. Empty beer bottles are not an endangered species - though maybe some of you brewers that lived out in the Northwest may remember the old Raineer commercials (late 70's, early 80's ?) with the herds of life-sized Raineer bottles running through the woods. Maybe it's a good thing that those have gone extinct. Mark Tumarkin Hogtown Brewers Gainesville, FL Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:23:27 -0400 From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com> Subject: Re: Homebrew for Sale? > Question: Does anyone know if this is actually legal? Is it homebrew or > is it commercially made beer for resale. I doubt seriously if they've > paid the taxes normally associated with making beer for sale. Many places which have their "own beer" actually contract brew with one of the local micros to do that. I don't know if you can set up a contract with a "homebrew store", but it's a possibility. Normally, a special "brewpub" type license is required to make your own beer and sell it. Maybe the pizzeria had it - probably not though. A long time ago (back in the mid 90s), I remember going to a dive bar way down in rural central Florida that actually sold their own homebrew. It was quite a bit better than the rest of the junk they had on draft (BudMillerCoors crap) and was only $1 a pint. Looking back, I bet that what they were doing was illegal as hell - probably the only time I've come close to experiencing the Southern moonshine tradition. :) Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:35:28 -0400 From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com> Subject: Brass and Counterpressure bottle fillers Paul Kensler writes that he believes that his taps are losing chrome plating to beer exposure. I discussed this with my plater. He really does not see how this could happen saying that chrome needs some real vulgar chemicals ( hydrochloric acid) or electricity to come off. Chrome is electroplated and, unless anodes are put inside things which is rather difficult and expensive, it will not plate interior areas. Maybe there is a misperception here that assumes that the part was chrome plated inside and out and since the beer is exposed to the inside and there is no chrome there, the beer removed it when it may have never been there to begin with. The plater is going to do a little research to see if there is anything he can turn up. Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com Free shipping for orders greater than $35 and East of the Mighty Miss. Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 06:25:43 -0400 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: CPBF Oxidation Dennis Collins posts, >[...] counter pressure bottled beer. [...] why does the beer from my keg taste fine for >weeks and weeks, but the bottled beer tastes like crap in about a week? ... oxidation. I've had the same experience. Some beers are ready to go over the edge and bottling is their death. I've seen this effect btw when using an (almost) all plastic & stainless bottler too. My hunch is that it's the O2. Copper(Cu) and Iron(Fe) ions play a big role in oxidation reactions, but it appears that you'd need to drop the iron below 1ppb and copper below 200ppb to significantly limit the effect. A lot of factors - competing mechanisms and natural antioxidants like phenolics and ascorbic acid decrease the most flavor damaging outcomes of this by very large factors. Break formation is pretty effective at removing Fe, Cu and several other metal ions from wort (70% to 99% according to various sources) and yeast will consume yet more. Still it doesn't take much of the metal ions. Note that the creation of the damaging radicals via metal ions ultimately requires free oxygen. You could try to collect these metal out of your beer with chelation agents, or alternatively try to keep included oxygen down to commercial standards - very difficult. Alternatively you could add to the anti-oxidant level - say add a little ascorbic acid at bottling time assuming these are for near term consumption. Copper at the levels measured in the study can have a direct flavor impact - different from oxidation.. - -- The 'Stainless One' posted study from 'New Brewer' appears a little self serving to me - but there is no way of telling. The credential of the authors and the reference list appears weak. I'd look for a comparable or followup paper in a journal like ASBC or JIB before I put much weight behind the idea. One criticism off the top of my head is the huge variations (37ppm to 158ppm of Cu) in Cu levels between the seven samples. This requires an explanation. >So, the meat of my post is this: If post fermentation contact of beer with >brass causes a significant increase in the copper content of the beer, and >copper contributes significantly to beer oxidation in sufficient quantities, Possibly. Copper and oxygen together can certainly cause some negative effects - and fast, but my hunch is that the background level of copper in beer (6ppm on the Budweiser test case) is well beyond the level needed to maximize this form of oxidation damage. >I encourage the interested folks in the forum to look closely at >this and give me your thoughts, BUT, read the BYO article (the first letter >in the Mr. Wizard section) I read the NewBrewer paper but as for Mr.Wizard - everytime I read that column I feel like dropping journal reprints over his house from a helicopter. You get better advise on HBD. Often I'm absolutely stunned at the dead-on HBD responses when someone posts that they're having such&such problem with fermentation or a mash or flavor. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 08:04:01 -0500 From: "Smith, Brian (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51 at ICCNET.COM> Subject: Bike inner tubes as seal... Christian, I wouldn't use a standard Butyl (black) bike tube as a seal for your conical. There are, however latex innertubes that are used by bike races (ask me how I know). You can usually find them in stock at higher end bike shops or they can order you some. They are more expensive (approx $8-$10 each). Brian Smith Inland Paperboard and Packaging Bogalusa Mill Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:50:35 -0400 From: Eric Jacobs <ejacobs.cs93 at gtalumni.org> Subject: Berliner Weiss, and Good Eats A while ago (back in the spring) I made a couple attempts at making Berliner Weiss, and wanted to post my experiences in order to help out anyone else who gives it a try in the future. In both cases I used 50/50 wheat/pils malt, aiming for low OG. Also boiled hops in the mash-water, before mashing, to get a little bitterness. I think I was basically following Marc Sedam's advice, which I found by searching the archives. The first batch was no-boil. I mashed as usual, sparged, then let the wort cool naturally from ~150F to pitching temp. This did sour it some, but also produced HUGE amounts of DMS. I dumped this batch in a flower-bed. (And I have to say, the combination of sour, DMS-laden beer, and 90F summer temps, produced an incredibly foul smell. For a couple days. I'm glad SWMBO was out of town, or I never would've heard the end of that.) Second batch: Doughed-in around 100F, left the mash in my garage overnight (16 hours), it stabilized around 90F. Then I carried on mashing- raise to 150, iodine test looked ok, etc. I did a batch-sparge, and boiled the first runnings for 10 minutes, but did *not* boil the later runnings. I figured that the majority of the DMS precursors would be in the concentrated first runnings, so the best payoff would be in boiling them. But I'd still have the unboiled 2nd runnings hopefully providing some bacteria for further souring if necessary. (I didn't mash-out, was hoping some bacteria would make it through the 150F mash.) Looks like the plan worked. There may be some DMS, but it's at acceptable levels. I think the beer *has* continued to get more sour over time, as I hoped- it started out not really sour enough, but now, a few months later, it's got a nice tart bite. (I've received a suggestion to do a longer souring rest, on the order of 36 hours. That might give a better level of sourness right off.) I don't think this style makes my top-3 list or anything, but a glass of it is *really* good after a day spent doing yard work. I'll probably make more in the future, but may just try a lacto culture next time. I can't add much to the comments already made about the Good Eats show. I thought it was a good, friendly, intro, along the lines of Charlie's "Don't worry, have a homebrew" philosophy. Hopefully it'll encourage a few people to go out and visit their local HB shop. If you missed the original airing, IMHO it's worth checking out, keep an eye out for reruns of it. Last weekend I went to an Alton Brown book-signing. AB did a 30-45 minute talk and Q&A before signing books, and someone asked how the homebrew turned out. He said it was good, and he actually finished up the last of it a couple days earlier, while reading hate-mail from homebrewers, about that homebrew show. :) Eric Jacobs Atlanta, GA, USA Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:29:25 -0400 From: Bill & Kazuko Macher <macher2 at attbi.com> Subject: Steam RIMS and BOILING are DIFFERENT Hi everyone, I got to thinking that it is likely that my previous posts, regarding the use of steam in the home brewery, may encourage someone to do something they should not. In my mind I was focused on using steam as the replacement heat source in a rims, in place of an electrical heating element. While I still think this can be done safely, I have personally concluded that using a pressure cooker to supply steam to a boiling vessel would be foolhardy. I have been discussing the steam issue off line with someone...and rather than type my personal thoughts over, I have just cut and pasted a few paragraphs from that private email. Like anything else in life, please consider the dangers of using anything that might harm you severely. While 15 psig steam may not have the killing power of 1,500 psig steam, it can still do you in. Think carefully before you act. REALLY! Here are those paragraphs... My observation is that using a pressure cooker to supply steam for a rims system does not stress the pressure cooker much, if any, over what it is designed for as used in the kitchen. I doubt that I can find the little booklet that came with my pressure cooker, but it is reasonable to expect there is a maximum burner BTU rating that a kitchen pressure cooker should be heated by. Exceeding that limit would not be advisable as it could weaken the vessel. This seems reasonable to me. I don't think I run the natural gas burner that is under my pressure cooker beyond the cooker's ratings. Using a pressure cooker as the source of steam for boiling is probably a VERY bad idea. I am pretty sure I want to post some of these thoughts on the HBD, because my previous mind set was not focused on the overall picture; I was thinking of steam as used in place of de-rated electrical heating elements in a rims, and not as a heat source for boiling, even though the first poster asked about using steam for boiling in a jacked pot he obtained from work. We both know there is no free lunch. The flame that is under the steam source must be just ever so larger than that which would be under the boiling kettle, to cover heat losses in transit. This sounds like a VERY BAD idea to me. VERY bad... Actually so bad that I may cut these paragraphs and make a short post to the HBD because I fear that my words my encourage someone to do just that... The little rubber plug that is the lid of the pressure cooker as a safety backup would do nothing to help if, due to overheating of the pressure cooker bottom, the pressure cooker was weakened and exploded, from the bottom up. Using a home pressure cooker above a flame that is beyond its design ratings, is a very bad idea. DO NOT DO THIS. Too risky...that is the message that I would try to convey. That is the end of the pasted paragraphs... On a side note, I did find what appears to be a reputable source with a table that lists soldered copper tubing and fittings as rated for 15 psig saturated steam. I am pretty sure that a pressure cooker can safely supply steam to a rims chamber, but there is no guarantee that you will be able to build a safe system to make this happen. Maybe YOU can, maybe I can; we must each make our own call and suffer the repercussions if we are wrong, or the benefits if we are right. Don't want to beat a dead dog to death, but there is an important message here. Future steam geeks...PLEASE consider what you are doing carefully. These are not meant to be CYA words, just advice from someone who is using steam in home brewing and feels comfortable with it...but not as a heat source for boiling! Bill Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:39:32 -0700 From: "John Maylone" <mrkoala at netptc.net> Subject: Holes in SS Chuck Doucette said: >It sounds like John Maylone bought his step drill from >Sears. Check out www.use-enco.com Harbor Freight, actually. I got the Titanium Nitride coated version of the Uni-Bit. Cost me a whole $0.54 more than www.use-enco.com 's price for that item. It'll last me a lifetime if I can remember where I put it. Then after I croak and my sons inherit it, they'll look at it, wonder what the hell it is and sell it at a yard sale for something like those 54 cents............ God has a great sense of humor. John in Tollhouse Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 17:31:25 -0400 From: "Tom & Dana Karnowski" <karnowsk at esper.com> Subject: overnight mashing revisited I wanted to report the results from my overnight mash. If you recall I was the one who wrote in that I had done an overnight mash and I got an extremely low terminal gravity. I was worried that the extended mash time was my undoing. The feedback ranged from: - --measurement error, which turned out to be true - --I had mashed too low (about 144F) - --the use of US malt (not 6-row but 2-row) produced lower terminal gravities - --the low mash temperature and extended mash period would produce a nearly 100% fermentable wort As it turns out I had accidentally measured the gravity wrong and it was fiercely diluted. So, I said I would re-post@ bottling time...which is NOW. As it turns out, the finishing gravity was 1.006 and 1.008 for the dubbel and saison. This is definitely more attenuated that I wanted but, to my relief, the samples tasted MUCH better than the super-diluted samples I drew before. (no kidding). They may be a bit on the thin side, perhaps, although I don't know if I really can tell that at this point or if I was biased because I knew they were well attenuated. In an attempt to figure out my actual apparent attenuation, I took a suggestion of Dennis Collins and checked my hydrometer and found that it is reading low. Tap water from my faucet adjusted to 60 F measured a gravity of 0.996 so it looks like my hydrometer is messed up. If I assume the hydrometer error is linear, which may be a bad assumption but it is probably good to a first approximation, I'm off by 0.004 and thus the actual FGs are 1.010 and 1.012. Looking back at my notes, the original gravity was 1.062 for the dubbel and 1.068 for the saison. Adjusting for the hydrometer error means the OG was 1.066 and 1.072. Thus the apparent attenuation is really 85% and 89%, definitely high. I did have a fair portion (maybe about 1.010) of sugar that made up the wort, which I guess is more fermentable than regular wort, but nevertheless I did get a higher attenuation than desired. I have had great results with mash temperatures this low but only for a regular mash time (about 90 minutes). So based on the responses, I think I will conclude the low mash temperature is indeed the culprit, but its effect was amplified by the long mash time. The overnight mashing was a great time saver, and it seems that many have had great success using it, so I won't give up on it; instead I think I'll just shoot for a few degrees higher than I would before and see what happens. Also, I'll save the beers that I mash at a really high (158 F) temperature for times when I can do a regular mash. When I want a really dry beer, it may be possible to use the overnight mashing at low temperature effect to my advantage. And finally,even though I don't think I'll be entering them in any competitions, I'll see how these super-attenuated beers taste down the line, as their flavor profiles werestill a bit promising despite the known flaw. thanks for the assistance Tom Karnowski Knoxville TN Return to table of contents
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