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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: Cider press (Phil Sides Jr)
  Iron in brewing (Thomas Rohner)
  Order of Importance ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Re: Cascade Dryhops ("Chad Gould")
  Good ESB Recipe Anyone? ("Bill Sample")
  "...that dreadful Ringwood yeast." (Daniel Chisholm)
  beer..didnt ferment ("John Misrahi")
  wort spraying (Robin Griller)
  Re: General Flavor- Influencers in the brewing process (Demonick)
  Re: "...that dreadful Ringwood yeast." ("Steve Alexander")
  storing corny kegs ("Richard Dulany")
  Teach A Friend To Homebrew Day: Tomorrow! ("Gary Glass")
  re: General Flavor- Influencers in the brewing process ("Steve Alexander")
  Diacetyl (AJ)
  Victor's general brew improvement questions ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Re: "...that dreadful Ringwood yeast." (Jeff Renner)
  Using Cocoa Beans (Abe Kabakoff)
  Re Twist Off Bottles (Andrew Calder)


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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 01:33:06 -0500
From: Phil Sides Jr <phil at brewingnews.com>
Subject: Re: Cider press

"Lau, William T" <william.lau at astrazeneca.com> asks:

>Anybody know if there are any home size cider presses around?  Or plans to
>build your own?

Bill,
Take a look at:

http://silcon.com/~rvwvn/pressa.htm
or
http://www.kuffelcreek.com/cider_press.htm

Phil Sides, Jr.
Silver Spring, MD

Need a good laugh today?
Join Altoidman's Humor List - http://www.altoidman.com



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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:59:27 +0100
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Iron in brewing

Hi Brewfolks
I have a question regarding iron in beer. I read many books on brewing,
and most if not all conclude, that iron ist not good in beer.
Be it from the water or from chipped enamel stockpots.
We are discussing it in the german equivalent to the hbd now.
There are breweries, who use iron mashtuns and boilers. And they
are said to make very good beers. No off-flavours or anything.
Has someone here tried and true bad experience with iron in
brewing? (I continue to use stainless;-)
Thomas


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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 06:57:05 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Order of Importance 

Victor asks about factors of importance in improving our beer. I'm not going
to attempt to put them in absolute order, but some of the things I think are
most important are -

1) Yeast starters - doing huge starters is HUGE in improving quality &
minimizing risk of infection.
2) Temp Control - cool temps make much cleaner beer. Best option is get a used
fridge & plug in temp controller that allows you to set your temp. Set it
lower than you want initially, the fermenting yeasties throw off a lot of
heat.
3) Full wort boils - get a propane burner & large enough kettle to move
outside & boil the entire wort. You'll get much better hop efficiency, have
more accurate control of gravity, etc.
4) Cool your wort quickly - there are good arguments for both immersion and
counter-flow chillers - but get one or the other. An immersion chiller is
super easy & cheap to make.
5) Oxygenate your wort - make the yeast happy & healthy cause they make the
beer, you just make the wort.
6) Keep good records - Consistency is extremely hard to achieve at the
homebrew level, but at least you'll know what you did, what worked & what
didn't. Keep trying to improve your process & recipes.

Last but not least, drink lots of beer & pay attention, try to discern
different flavors, their origin or cause. Try to figure out what you like or
don't like about the beer, and why. Yeah, I know .... this is a tough one, but
ya gotta do it.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL





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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 07:56:39 -0500
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Cascade Dryhops

> Brother Bill Frazier's comments on SNPA and his recommendations for dry
> hopping got me thinking.  What is the experience of others on the amount
> and the contact time for dry hopping with cascade in particular and other
> hops?

I've done three dryhopped batches right now, two with whole hops (one
Cascade, one Tettnager) and one with pellets (Cascade). In all three cases
I've been using 2 week contact times; each time I used one ounce.

In such large amounts, the hops do seem quite a bit harsh on initial taste.
However, I like to age my beers one month in the bottle before the initial
sample. The harshness tends to mellow out a lot over time, while enough of
the dryhop smell profile stays around to make the first few weeks of
drinking these beers really pleasant. I imagine if I was force carbonating,
I would want to cut back on the hop additions.

One other thing: I have noticed that whole hops seem to leave a much more
pleasant aroma. The one pellet time I tried, the taste seemed a bit
"resiny".

One unrelated note:

> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 01:04:54 +0200
> From: "jeff radebe" <j_radebe at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Kind Assistance Needed!!!
> STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL & URGENT

No "gimme your bank account" SPAM here, please!
Though I'll gladly accept unsolicited beer donations to my mailbox. :)




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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 06:56:14 -0600
From: "Bill Sample" <bsample at shermanisd.net>
Subject: Good ESB Recipe Anyone?

Greetings,

I must echo fellow digesters thanks for the collective expertise and
willingness to share shown by many of you.  With the approach of cooler
weather I'm ready to brew again after taking off the hottest months of the
summer and was looking for a suggestion for a good all grain ESB recipe.
Red Hook ESB has become my store bought brew of choice and would like to
make one in that style if possible.  Any suggestions??

Bill



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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:38:02 -0400
From: Daniel Chisholm <dmc at nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: "...that dreadful Ringwood yeast."

Steve Alexander wrote:
>   I can't really say if JeffR's localpub has diacetyl
> from the pump-rousing or from that dreadful Ringwood yeast.

I'm intrigued.  I am beginning to gather that Ringwood seems to very
much stir a "love it or hate it" reaction in people (!).

I'm wondering if I might ask what various people love or hate about
Ringwood (hopefully generating more light than heat in the process! ;-)

What say you, HBDers with an opinion on Ringwood yeast?  Step up and
rant, please!!

Here in the beer wasteland known as New Brunswick, our best brewery
(IMHO) uses Ringwood, and makes the tastiest ales available here (the
brewery is Picaroons Traditional Ales, FWIW).  The only other really
great tasting beer that we can get here is a recently available "import"
(from Quebec), McAuslan's St. Ambroise Oatmeal Stout.

I _think_ I have finally figured out in my taste buds what the "Ringwood
taste" is, and I have to say that I like it (or mebbe that's just
because the only good beers I've had have been Ringwood beers? ;-).  I
suspect (but do not know for a fact) that I may be relatively
insensitive to diacetyl, so perhaps that's a factor.

I am impatiently waiting for Smell-O-Vision to become available on the
Internet, I think it'll become a lot easier to get a good beer education
then!



- -- 
 - Daniel
Fredericton, NB  Canada


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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:52:46 -0500
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: beer..didnt ferment

Just an update...those white dots were definetely mold...i took a sample and
tasted, then poured the bucket down the toilet. oh well, it was a kit on
sale for maybe 4$CAN and 2cents of spices.

only my second failed batch, but my only batch that wouldnt ferment. I gave
it around a week before dumping.

John

Pothole?  Thats luxury!  I have to ferment directly in my mouth.  On brew
day I fill up my mouth with wort in the am and drop a few yeast cells in and
3 hours later I swallow.  Wish I had a pothole to ferment in. -Mike Brennan
on the HBD

"Ah, Billy Beer... we elected the wrong Carter." -Homer Simpson




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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:39:11 -0500
From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: wort spraying

Hi all,

Re the question about the spraying of wort back onto the top of the
ferment in UK brewing: this is part of the Yorkshire Square fermentation
system a practice traditional in, you guessed it, Yorkshire. The
fermenters were (and are still at a few breweries) made of slate and these
breweries use(d) yeasts which require mucho oxygen as S. pointed out.
While it may be that this leads to flavour defects, the only brewery I can
think of off the top of my head that still uses this fermentation
technique is the Black Sheep Brewery. I've had their beers on various
occassions and have never noticed any flavour defects to them. Now it
may be my taste buds that are defective, but I don't seem to have much
trouble noticing diacetyl at least. So, I would conclude that the practice
doesn't necessarily lead to any flavour defects; given that Black Sheep,
for example, seem able to produce consistently fine and consistent beer
using this practice....In any case, Steve is absolutely correct that the
Ringwood yeast is repulsive stuff. Blechh!!

Now, if someone were to try this, they might want to devise recipes that
are similar in style to traditional Yorkshire bitter as it would make
sense that the recipe formations (i.e. ibu levels, hop aroma/flavour, or
in this case, the lack thereof, etc.) might relate to being able to use
this technique without all the possible problems Steve pointed out.

Not that I would want to try it at home!

Robin



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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:10:24 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: General Flavor- Influencers in the brewing process


Good question.  This could be a top 10 list ...

1. Sanitation, or more appropriately - SANITATION!

Poor sanitation can trash otherwise perfect technique.

2. Pre-fermentation aeration

Your yeast needs LOTS of O2, whether or not you are using a starter.  Not
that I suggest the following of course, but, with impeccable sanitation,
and with repeated saturated aeration over the first 12-18 hours, fine brews
can be had from simply a Wyeast smack pack - even the little ones.

3. Fermentation temperature

Taylor your fermentation temperature to your yeast.  A good rule of thumb
for ales is to keep it below 70F.  Watch out for the heat of fermentation.  
The fermentation can easily raise its own temperature by 3-4F.  If you are
pushing the upper limit for a yeast this increase can have an effect.  

4. Rouse your yeast

This is probably the only item I've listed that will cause some
consternation among some.  

If your fermentation is a closed system, and all the air/O2 has been
scrubbed out of it by days of active fermentation, then shaking the wort
into froth will not cause any oxidation, since there is no O2 in there. I
ferment in glass carboys with airlocks.  After the fermentation peaks and
the yeast start to flocculate, I rock/swirl the contents VIGOROUSLY.  The
airlock starts pumping like a runaway motor, spitting out airlock fluid.  
This stirs up all the gunk from the bottom of the fermenter, getting the
yeast back in suspension.  Some of it stirs from its slumber and pushes the
fermentation a few more points.  It also, paradoxically, makes for a
clearer finished product.  The finer particles meet the bigger particles,
clump together, and fall out.  Without rousing the larger particles fall
out leaving behind more fine haze.

5. Minimize post-fermentation aeration 

Once you have alcohol in the brew aeration will cause the yeast to consume
the alcohol creating off-flavors.  Be GENTLE in post-fermentation handling.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:36:10 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: "...that dreadful Ringwood yeast."

Daniel Chisholm asks,

> I'm wondering if I might ask what various people love or hate about
> Ringwood

Diacetyl.

>[...]I may be relatively
> insensitive to diacetyl,[...].

I know that I am not partularly sensitive to diacetyl, but the couple
ringwood ales I've had were rife with it - overloaded.

 -S



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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:49:29 -0700
From: "Richard Dulany" <richarddulany at hotmail.com>
Subject: storing corny kegs

Here's my contrary opinion on Corny keg storage:  I clean them thoroughly, 
purge with CO2, and store them closed. The kegs have probably 5 psi of CO2 
in them, or less.

I live in a very dry climate and the guys at the CO2 store recommended 
storing the kegs closed to keep the rubber seals from drying out. There is 
some moisture trapped in the keg after cleaning, but the CO2 keeps bad 
things from growing inside. It's worked for me for 2 years now. There is an 
added benefit:  if the keg has a leak, I'll know because it will lose 
pressure quickly.

Richard Dulany
El Paso, Texas







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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:24:53 -0700
From: "Gary Glass" <gary at aob.org>
Subject: Teach A Friend To Homebrew Day: Tomorrow!

Don' forget that tomorrow Saturday, November 2, is the American Homebrewers
Association's 4th annual Teach a Friend to Homebrew Day!  We now have nearly
120 sites registered.  You can still register your site if you haven't done
so already.

Details and the registration form are available at
http://www.beertown.org/AHA/teachbrew/teachday.htm.

Cheers!

Gary Glass, Project Coordinator
Association of Brewers
888-U-CAN-BREW
(303) 447-0816 x 121
gary at aob.org
www.beertown.org

Boulder, CO
[1126.8, 262] Rennerian




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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:26:00 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: General Flavor- Influencers in the brewing process

 Victor  writes ...

>I don't want to create an extra step in the process or measure/ change
>something  if it isn't going to enhance the quality of the end product:
>maximum bang for my buck & time.

>1. For both extract and all-grain brewing (as I am thinking of switching)
>what are the items that control the quality of the beer?

>2. The second question then is the ranking of the items.  Which are
>imperatives to ensure a consistent quality beer -  and which are, or
>might just be, ancillary items for those who are more interested in the
>process versus the product?

I really admire Victor's straightforward approach to the "how best to brew"
question , but I have to declare it's currently doomed to failure.  There
are
thousands of factors that unarguably impact quality and thousands more
arguable ones.  You won't find a list except perhaps of the very basics
and every 'rule' you can devise will have exceptions.  I think such a
project
could be accomplished, but it would be quite a formidable database of
information and not an 8k-byte post response.

Order of importance is a pipedream.   Is temperature control of a fermenter
more important than infection ?    It depends entirely on degree and the
specifics of your case.  Each of these and a hundred others can result in no
perceptible difference or else pour_me_down_the_drain bad flavors.

There are boatloads of small factors that significantly impact flavor.   If
you don't believe then try a split batch experiment or try to make exactly
the same beer the same way twice.   A comparative tasting of a
bottle-conditioned vs kegged version of the same beer is always
distinguishable.

If the question is limited to "how to brew beers without clear flaws", then
there are a lot of HB books that will get Victor to that goal.  It's
infinitely harder to define how to design & produce excellent beers.  The
selection of malts and hops is an art, and the handling of yeast for optimal
results is black-magic.  Experience must be the ultimate instructor here.
Taste your beer against a classics in the style and see what is lacking.
Once you determine a flavor problem or deficit  it's much easier to work
backward and correcting.   As you get rid of the basic  flaws then you can
decide if good beer is sufficient or else start working on the 'art'
factors - on making great beer not just unflawed beer.   I've been through
several wheelbarrows full of professional journals articles in
flavor/quality issues and I've still more questions than answers.  There is
no royal road to knowledge.

 -S



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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 18:32:46 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Diacetyl

Speaking of diacetyl there is an article in the latest MBAA quarterly 
that talks about the enzyme alpha acetolactate decarboxylase which, as 
the name implies, decarboxylates (non oxidatively) acetolactate to 
acetoin thus bypassing the oxidative decarboxylation to diacetyl and 
subsequent reduction to acetoin (by yeast). The idea is to eliminate the 
diacetyl rest and krausening steps in maturing beer thus saving time and 
money. The enzyme is sold as "Maturex L" and is now FDA approved for use 
in the US. Who will be the first homebrewer to try this out?
A.J.




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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:07:38 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: Victor's general brew improvement questions

Victor who is extract and specialty grain brewing asks about "most
bang-for-buck" methods to improve his beer production.  Go all-grain is the
not the biggest and fastest improvement you can make.

My suggestions:
1) full wort boil to eliminate excessive carmelization and discoloration of
wort
2) large starters (I use a two scaleups from Wyeast and usually 2
(occasionally 1) for Whitelabs or multiple packs of dry yeats if going that
route).
3) pure O2 or aquarium pump air after your wort is cool and yeast pitched.
4) sanitize well, especially bottles (which I hate doing and never did very
well).

The only ones of the above I did before going all-grain was #2 and #4.  And
I'm still not at #1 completely since I electric stove boil my worts at about
4 to 4.5 gallons final volume before makeup water is added postcooling to 5
gallons final yield.

Pete Czerpak
albany, NY


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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:05:53 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: "...that dreadful Ringwood yeast."

At 11:36 AM -0500 10/31/02, Steve Alexander wrote:
>Daniel Chisholm asks,
>
>>  I'm wondering if I might ask what various people love or hate about
>>  Ringwood
>
>Diacetyl.
>
>>[...]I may be relatively
>>  insensitive to diacetyl,[...].
>
>I know that I am not partularly sensitive to diacetyl, but the couple
>ringwood ales I've had were rife with it - overloaded.

I am sensitive to it, but strangely enough, I don't find it in all 
the Pugsley brewery beers to the offensive level I find it in the 
beers at the Grizzly Peak, the local brewpub I mentioned that pumps 
it beer over in a fountain.

For more info on this system (but no on the yeast), check out 
http://www.pugsley.com/.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:32:35 -0500
From: Abe Kabakoff <abe_kabakoff at gmx.de>
Subject: Using Cocoa Beans

Hi All,

I recently bought 2 lbs of cocoa beans to make a chocolate brew... I 
don't plan to use them all at once, so I have a few chances to do this 
right, but I figured I'd ask you so I get it right the first time: How 
do I best use them?  Should I grind them up and put them in the mash? 
Steep them in the boil?  Add to a secondary?

Abe Kabakoff



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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:10:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Calder <arcalder2000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re Twist Off Bottles

Howdy All,
Sorry this is late, awhile someone asked about using
twist off bottles for homebrew.  I bottled over 1000
twist off bottles and only had one failure.  However,
using regular crowns it was necessary to pry off the
cap using a bottle opener.  The caps could not be
twisted off.


=====
Hope this helps,

Andrew Calder, New Lenox, IL
[218.1,257] Apparent Rennerian



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