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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  First mention of FWH in this digest (David Towson)
  fusels & late aeration/rousing & CCVs ("Steve Alexander")
  dry hopping ("Fred Scheer")
  fuesel alcohol ("Fred Scheer")
  Re: Wait awhile (Wendy & Reuben Filsell)
  Re: Quality control. (Wendy & Reuben Filsell)
  important factors in brewing (darrell.leavitt)
  spiced ale...not fermenting (darrell.leavitt)
  re: storing corny kegs (Paul Kensler)
  Permanently Marking Stainless/Glass & Fluid Gauges ("Kenneth Peters")
  Cider press ("Lau, William T")
  Cascade Dryhops ("Rancourt, Mark D")
  Re: Quality control. (Wendy & Reuben Filsell)
  Re: experiments with corn.... (Jeff Renner)
  Re: re: storing corny kegs (Pat Babcock)
  Re: fusels & late aeration/rousing & CCVs (Kevin Crouch)
  winemaking book recommendation ("Richard Dulany")
  First Wort Bittering Hops? (abarletta)
  aeration ("D. Clark")
  order of importance? (Jeff & Ellen)


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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 01:39:19 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: First mention of FWH in this digest

I have seen repeated references to George Fix being credited with 
introduction of first wort hopping to readers of this digest in late 1995 
and early 1996.  But while doing an extensive "snoop" in the archives 
today, I came across the following.

"Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 16:51:23 -0800
From: Richard.Goldstein at EBay.Sun.COM (Richard Goldstein)
Subject: First Wort Hopping "Rediscovered"

Was anyone else confused by this little tidbit (with the same title as my 
subject above) in the BrewNews section of the Winter `94 Zymurgy? I've 
reread it about a dozen times and still can't quite figure out what they're 
trying to say. What was especially confusing was the statement about the 
two doses of hops normally coming last in the hopping schedule being added 
earlier. For those who don't get Zymurgy, don't read it, or missed this gem: "

He then went on to quote the Zymurgy article, which was based on a 1993 
article in "Brauwelt", and asked whether anyone could provide an 
explanation.  So far as I could tell, no one ever responded.  But when Fix 
brought the subject up a year later, it caught on and continues still, 
probably because he laid it out so people could understand it.  Interesting.

Dave in Bel Air, MD



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 05:47:25 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: fusels & late aeration/rousing & CCVs

Kevin C writes ...

>I meant to refer to the fusel
>oils produced during some fermentations that, as I
>understand, are held withing the krausen.

I think the name "oils"is throwing you Kevin.  Fusel oils are alcohols.
Except for distillation methods the fusel concentration will track the
ethanol pretty closely in finished beer.

Dave Miller's comments that late aeration has caused high final diacetyl
levels in his beers matches warning in Kunze's TB&M.  Diacetyl formation is
related to amino acid synthesis so easily related to growth, and VDK
formation does have an oxidation step that can use free O2.  Still yeast
have demonstrably huge powers of diacetyl (and other VDK) removal late in
fermentation.  I *suspect* you can manage the VDKs if you finish with
healthy yeast present.   I can't really say if JeffR's localpub has diacetyl
from the pump-rousing or from that dreadful Ringwood yeast.

Back to the point - are rousing and late aeration desirable ?

Certain ale yeasts have a very high need for oxygen, around 40ppm in order
to finish fermentation of conventional gravity wort.   40ppm is well beyond
the saturation point for oxygen in wort, so some of post form of oxygen
admission is needed.   Open fermentation is self-explanatory and I believe
that top-fermenting yeast can obtain a lot of oxygen from an open
fermentation.   Dropping occurs at 24-36 hours after pitching traditionally
and undoubtedly includes some oxygen inclusion.   Rousing is an interesting
case - it's use is controversial, but clearly necessary for certain highly
flocculent yeast.  Traditional rousing was with paddles but more modern UK
practice was to pump wort through a spray onto the top of the wort with
obvious oxygen inclusion..

Yeast with very high O2 reqs will require some method of introducing the O2.
Traditional methods produce traditional products, but IMO many of those
traditional products have unacceptable flavor defects.  If you must use an
hi-O2-req yeast for it's flavor then do so but let's not pretend late O2
inclusion doesn't impact the beer flavor and stability.   Post pitching O2
inclusion adds to VDKs and fusels as well as oxidized phenolics adding to
coarse bitterness and haze, and free radicals that can cause fatty aid
oxidation and aldehydes.

Graham Stone's comments on secondary fermentation are interesting.    M&BS
indicates that dropping occurs at 24-36 hours, but they say the attenuation
is only 50% to 66% at that time and not the 75% which Graham obtains.  They
also state that 0.5P to 1P(2-4 SG degrees) are left in the beer for
secondary fermentation in cask - perhaps that's the more critical aspect.
Graham's use of the term 'secondary fermentation' wrt ales is undoubtedly
correct, but I wouldn't call the HB book usage incorrect.  The term as used
in HB books has more to do with early trub removal and moving to a closed
fermenter rather than the late control of the fermentation of the last 1P of
fermentables.  The HB book practice is sound and the terminology is
descriptive but  in conflict with Grahams more traditional usage.

Graham associates "green beer" flavor only with the "green" apple aroma of
acetaldehyde.  I can't agree.   All of the texts refer to the full spectrum
of unresolved young beer flavors - worty aldehydes, sulphur compounds and
particularly diacetyl as indicative of "green beer".

- ---

On rousing .... there is a very interesting article in the most recent
Journal of ASBC on yeast rousing.   It appears that the peak agitation
levels that occur in a 400kL CCV are about the minimum required to obtain
the greatest yeast growth and quickest attenuation.  The authors suggest
mechanical props for agitation avoid the weaknesses of CCV circulation.

 -S



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 06:18:28 -0600
From: "Fred Scheer" <fred_scheer at hotmail.com>
Subject: dry hopping



Martin:
We dry hoppe with Cascade with success. I think one of the
problems is that
you dry hoppe with hop pellets. We get best results with about
1 to 1 1/2 oz whole hops for 5 gallons of IPA. The contact time
is 2 weeks
at ~ 65*F, followed by 1 week at 50*F before we start serving
the cask. For
our Wednesdays Homebrewers meeting I use more hops, 2 - 2 1/2 oz
per cask.
Hope this helps,
Fred M. Scheer
Boscos, Nashville,TN






Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 06:29:50 -0600
From: "Fred Scheer" <fred_scheer at hotmail.com>
Subject: fuesel alcohol


Regarding the discussion about higher alcohols I would like to give my 2C.  
About 80% of the fusel oils are formed during primary fermentation.
One of the biggest factor I found is the primary fermentation temperature, 
i.e., the higher the temperature - the more higher alcohols. By pumping beer 
(as earlier mentioned by Jeff R.), or stirring young beer (thats what 
SCHLITZ may did). The amino acid concentradion is very important, a good 
measure always was 175 ppm.
To much aeration, i.e., above 8 ppm, will cause fusel oil concentration to 
increase. Now, how can we reduce that formation? By increasing the amount of 
  yeast used; reduce the pitching temperature; do not over aerate at higher 
temperatures (i.e., NEVER open your wort aeration devise before the wort 
temperature is below 80*F).
Nuff said
Fred M. Scheer
Boscos, Nashville, TN.






Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:31:34 +0800
From: Wendy & Reuben Filsell <filsell at myplace.net.au>
Subject: Re: Wait awhile



> From: homebrew-request@hbd.org (Request Address Only - No Articles)
> Reply-To: homebrew at hbd.org (Posting Address Only - No Requests)
> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:38:14 -0500
> To: homebrew at hbd.org
> Subject: Homebrew Digest #4080 (October 30, 2002)
> 
> It started making a little fizzng sound but i never got a head of
> krausen and now there are dots of mold.

Your'e being very impatient are you sure those dots of mould aren't the
beginning of Krausen????
Reuben.



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:27:10 +0800
From: Wendy & Reuben Filsell <filsell at myplace.net.au>
Subject: Re: Quality control.



> From: homebrew-request@hbd.org (Request Address Only - No Articles)
> Reply-To: homebrew at hbd.org (Posting Address Only - No Requests)
> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:38:14 -0500
> To: homebrew at hbd.org
> Subject: Homebrew Digest #4080 (October 30, 2002)
> 
> 1. For both extract and all-grain brewing (as I am thinking of switching)
> what are the
> items that control the quality of the beer?
> I think we all know the ingredients themselves are important. I am looking
> for the other
> items such as, the temperature of fermentation, the water chemistry, or the
> sparging
> temperature.

I went through this same process many years ago so here are my
recommendations.
1. Get a chest freezer for temperature control of fermentations, I say a
chest freezer because they are way more efficient and don't dump their cold
air on the floor when you open them. And get one of those plug in temp
controllers that still leaves the freezer's gear intact. (resale value)
2. Get a digital thermometer with at least a 40cm probe (thermocouple) this
can then be used in your minimashes full mashes fridges etc.
3a If you have "difficult" water invest in a pH meter.
3b Download Promash and save yourself a load of math and stress!!!
4. Start a yeast ranch, buy a pH meter a microscope dissolved O2 metre  and
enrol in a brewing degree!!
Reuben
Western Australia.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:50:21 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: important factors in brewing

Victor.E.Franklin at bankofamerica.com

asks about the important factors in brewing as he prepares to attack those that 
produce the most bang for the buck...

Well, I think that there a lots of directions to go here,..but will suggest one 
that has made the most impact on my brewing, and that is a good LONG boil.  I 
am certain that a good long boil contributes a lot to the final product, not 
the least of which is that the "hot break" / proteins that coagulate lead to a 
much more clear beer...

I now boil for 2 hours...perhaps too much if you are using a high btu King 
Cooker, but not for me on a conventional stovetop (gas)...and find that after 
the first hour of the boil the hot break starts occuring.  I also think that 
some whole hops in the boil help to 'grab' the break material...

One dimension, then, for all-grain brewing, is a good long boil.

Let's discuss them all!
 ..Darrell




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:52:19 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: spiced ale...not fermenting

John,
 I wonder an issue could be that you did not re-hydrate the dry yeast?

 ..Darrell




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 05:26:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: storing corny kegs

Adam,
In my experience the best way to store corny kegs is
clean, dry and empty.  Having lived in some pretty
humid areas, I've discovered mildew inside growlers
that were dry when sealed, but air temperature changes
caused condensation of air moisture inside the
growler, providing a spot for mildew to grow.

I keep my cornies on their sides on a shelf, with the
lids on but without the gaskets so there can be some
air exchange.  The lid and keeping them on their sides
help keep dust, etc. out, but I still rinse them with
tap water before sanitizing and filling.

I don't think a half-full keg of BTF would help,
because you'd just have a half-empty (but very very
moist) top part of the keg.  Besides, a BTF (I assume
its iodophor?) solution doesn't last forever, and it
would probably be better to sanitize with fresh
sanitizer when the keg is needed.

YMMV, depending on the local humidity and flora
conditions in your area.


Hope this helps,
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:55:30 -0600
From: "Kenneth Peters" <kpeters6 at cox.net>
Subject: Permanently Marking Stainless/Glass & Fluid Gauges

I notice that a number of folks immerse some type of ruler or such into the
liquid to measure from the bottom of the container. I used to do this, but
somewhere saw what I thought was a better idea (maybe here). I lay a straight
edge across the container and use a ruler to measure down from the bottom of
the straight edge  to the top of the liquid. I started by making a calibration
chart for each container by adding a measured volume of water (1 gallon in my
case) and recording the measurement as I added additional volumes. After the
first gallon or so, the measurement increases at a constant rate due to the
uniform diameter of the container. It is easy to extrapolate between readings,
is relatively accurate and since it is non-intrusive, it is sanitary. I use a
12 inch metal ruler to measure with and prior to measuring cooled wort (even
though I don't intentionally touch it) I dip the first inch or so of the ruler
in sanitizer. Works well for me.

Kenneth Peters
Harrah, Oklahoma



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:36:57 -0500
From: "Lau, William T" <william.lau at astrazeneca.com>
Subject: Cider press

Anybody know if there are any home size cider presses around?  Or plans to
build your own?

Bill Lau
AstraZeneca Pharmaceuticals LP
587 Old Baltimore Pike
Newark, DE 19702-1307
Phone 302-286-4948
Fax     302-286-3126
william.lau at astrazeneca.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 06:42:40 -0800
From: "Rancourt, Mark D" <mark.d.rancourt at boeing.com>
Subject: Cascade Dryhops

Subject: Cascade Dry Hopping

Brother Bill Frazier's comments on SNPA and his recommendations for dry
hopping got me thinking.  What is the experience of others on the amount
and the contact time for dry hopping with cascade in particular and other
hops?

I am a big fan of American PA's and BA's.  I've dry hopped with Cascade for
a number of years with varying degrees of success.  Through all this
experience, I've come to the conclusion that 1/2 oz of cascade pellets in a
5 gallon batch with one week of contact time produces the flavor balance
and best results (to my tastes).  I've tried larger additions (1 oz/ 5 gal)
and longer times (2 weeks), but neither produced a pleasing result.  The
flavor becomes more grassy and harsh when I exceed my concluded limits.
I've reviewed this result on recipes that are identical other than the dry
hopping, so there is some comparative basis.  I've also dry hopped with
Northern Brewer and Cascade, which produces a pleasant combination.

The fact that Bill recommended 1/2 oz/ 5 gal Cascade made me wonder if
others had also observed that there is a limit to dry hopping.  Does anyone
have additional data or research that suggests that there is a best dry
hopping schedule?  Best isn't the right word, but you know what I mean.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL




- ------------------------------

Try 1 Oz of Columbus in a 5 gal batch for something that ROCKS. Fasten your
seatbelt...


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:55:55 +0800
From: Wendy & Reuben Filsell <filsell at myplace.net.au>
Subject: Re: Quality control.



> From: homebrew-request@hbd.org (Request Address Only - No Articles)
> Reply-To: homebrew at hbd.org (Posting Address Only - No Requests)
> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:38:14 -0500
> To: homebrew at hbd.org
> Subject: Homebrew Digest #4080 (October 30, 2002)
> 
> 1. For both extract and all-grain brewing (as I am thinking of switching)
> what are the
> items that control the quality of the beer?
> I think we all know the ingredients themselves are important. I am looking
> for the other
> items such as, the temperature of fermentation, the water chemistry, or the
> sparging
> temperature.

I went through this same process many years ago so here are my
recommendations.
1. Get a chest freezer for temperature control of fermentations, I say a
chest freezer because they are way more efficient and don't dump their cold
air on the floor when you open them. And get one of those plug in temp
controllers that still leaves the freezer's gear intact. (resale value)
2. Get a digital thermometer with at least a 40cm probe (thermocouple) this
can then be used in your minimashes full mashes fridges etc.
3a If you have "difficult" water invest in a pH meter.
3b Download Promash and save yourself a headload of math and stress!!!
4. Start a yeast ranch, buy a pH meter a microscope dissolved O2 metre  and
enrol in a brewing degree!!
Reuben
Western Australia.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:06:27 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: experiments with corn....

"Smith, Brian (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51 at ICCNET.COM> of Bogalusa, LA writes:

>I bought some wonder fresh milled corn meal at our parish (that's a county
>for those of you not in Louisiana) fair with the thought of using it for
>brewing.  Now I know that this has been discussed ad nausieum but for those
>of us on the back row that were not paying attention, could you go though it
>just one more time.  And for my benefit, could you not use words with more
>that 2 syllables :-)

Conventional wisdom is that whole corn meal, which includes the oily 
germ and the flinty skin, is less suitable for brewing than degermed 
corn meal/grits.    However, fresh meal should work pretty well. 
HBDers Jack Schmidling (MaltMill manufacturer) and George DePiro (now 
a professional brewer) have reported no problem.

I like to use corn at 20-25% in a classic American pilsner or cream 
ale.  You'd need to use a little higher levels since you have the 
non-starchy germ and skin.  You must gelatinize corn starches before 
they can be converted by malt enzymes.  This means cooking at >180F, 
or in practical terms, boiling.

Here's how I do it, based on tried and true commercial method.  In a 
kitchen pot big enough to hold the cereal mash, add about 30% malt to 
the corn (that's not 30% of the malt, but 30% as much as the corn), 
mash in with appropriately treated water to a temperature of ~153 and 
put it into a preheated 150F over and hold 20-30 minutes.  Make a 
fairly loose mash.  Then on a stove top or your brewery burner, raise 
to boiling, making sure to stir to avoid scorching. and simmer for 
40-60 minutes depending on the coarseness of the meal.  Polenta can 
take > 60 minutes as it is very coarse.  Stir occasionally, and make 
sure it doesn't dry out on the bottom.

Now when you the cereal mash began boiling, you mash in the rest of 
the malt to about 144F and rest it ~45 minutes as per usual.  Then 
add the boiling cereal mash for a target of 158F.  If you use 30-35% 
corn, you will probably come close to hitting this temperature. 
Otherwise you'll need to add boiling water or heat to get it up. 
Mash another 15-45 minutes (I generally go for the longer), then 
(optionally) raise to a mashout temperature of 170F.

This sounds complicated but it really isn't.  I did a demonstration 
CAP brew at the Music City Brew-Off weekend before last, and the 
general comment was, "Boy, that isn't as hard as it sounded."

Let us know how it turns out.

>p.s., I also purchased some fresh cane syrup, figured if you can make mead
>with honey, can you do something similar with cane syrup?  (the guy who was
>making it said his great grandfather used to mention something called "cane
>buck")

Can't help with that.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:30:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: re: storing corny kegs

Friend Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com> writes to Adam:
 
> I don't think a half-full keg of BTF would help,
> because you'd just have a half-empty (but very very
> moist) top part of the keg.  Besides, a BTF (I assume
> its iodophor?) solution doesn't last forever, and it
> would probably be better to sanitize with fresh
> sanitizer when the keg is needed.
 
A further warning regarding iodophor stored long-term in kegs: I
store Iodophor in two of my kegs long term. In both cases, the
plastic nut which holds the safety relief valve in place on the
lid disintegrated. It is my supposition that the iodine attacked
and embrittled the plastic, but who knows. In any case, the
two-in-a-row coincidence, if that's what it turns out to have
been, convinced me...

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:30:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: fusels & late aeration/rousing & CCVs

Thanks Steve,  your input really helped fill in some
of the gaps.  What I take away from this is that some
yeast,  and apparently the Wyeast London III that I've
been using, require a measure of oxygen during the
fermentation.  So, I probably got lucky with this
yeast by giving a dose of O2 so late since it might
have actually required it given my closed primary.

Your description of "green" beer also supported some
of my suspicions, but raised a few more questions.  I
have noticed that almost all of my conditioning beer,
both ales and lagers, display an oxidized aroma that
quickly wears off. I figured this could be attributed
to some form of aldehyde. If acetaldehyde is
responsible for the "green-apple" character, is the
stronger "oxidized" character some sort of
intermediary?   Is this dependent on the type of grain
used?  

While we're on the subject of green beer, In a recent
ale, I noticed a powerful honey aroma,  backed by some
green apple, that made the ale smell and taste like a
Cyser. Of course, this eventually subsided, but I've
looked everywhere and can't find any information on
the compound causing the honey aroma, nor have I ever
experienced it with such intensity.  This beer was my
first experiment with Maris Otter Floor-malted pale
malt.  Could that have contributed?  

Every beer has a different story to tell.

Kevin Crouch
Vancouver, WA
- --- Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> Kevin C writes ...
> 
> >I meant to refer to the fusel
> >oils produced during some fermentations that, as I
> >understand, are held withing the krausen.
> 
> I think the name "oils"is throwing you Kevin.  Fusel
> oils are alcohols.
> Except for distillation methods the fusel
> concentration will track the
> ethanol pretty closely in finished beer.
> 
> Dave Miller's comments that late aeration has caused
> high final diacetyl
> levels in his beers matches warning in Kunze's TB&M.
>  Diacetyl formation is
> related to amino acid synthesis so easily related to
> growth, and VDK
> formation does have an oxidation step that can use
> free O2.  Still yeast
> have demonstrably huge powers of diacetyl (and other
> VDK) removal late in
> fermentation.  I *suspect* you can manage the VDKs
> if you finish with
> healthy yeast present.   I can't really say if
> JeffR's localpub has diacetyl
> from the pump-rousing or from that dreadful Ringwood
> yeast.
> 
> Back to the point - are rousing and late aeration
> desirable ?
> 
> Certain ale yeasts have a very high need for oxygen,
> around 40ppm in order
> to finish fermentation of conventional gravity wort.
>   40ppm is well beyond
> the saturation point for oxygen in wort, so some of
> post form of oxygen
> admission is needed.   Open fermentation is
> self-explanatory and I believe
> that top-fermenting yeast can obtain a lot of oxygen
> from an open
> fermentation.   Dropping occurs at 24-36 hours after
> pitching traditionally
> and undoubtedly includes some oxygen inclusion.  
> Rousing is an interesting
> case - it's use is controversial, but clearly
> necessary for certain highly
> flocculent yeast.  Traditional rousing was with
> paddles but more modern UK
> practice was to pump wort through a spray onto the
> top of the wort with
> obvious oxygen inclusion..
> 
> Yeast with very high O2 reqs will require some
> method of introducing the O2.
> Traditional methods produce traditional products,
> but IMO many of those
> traditional products have unacceptable flavor
> defects.  If you must use an
> hi-O2-req yeast for it's flavor then do so but let's
> not pretend late O2
> inclusion doesn't impact the beer flavor and
> stability.   Post pitching O2
> inclusion adds to VDKs and fusels as well as
> oxidized phenolics adding to
> coarse bitterness and haze, and free radicals that
> can cause fatty aid
> oxidation and aldehydes.
> 
> Graham Stone's comments on secondary fermentation
> are interesting.    M&BS
> indicates that dropping occurs at 24-36 hours, but
> they say the attenuation
> is only 50% to 66% at that time and not the 75%
> which Graham obtains.  They
> also state that 0.5P to 1P(2-4 SG degrees) are left
> in the beer for
> secondary fermentation in cask - perhaps that's the
> more critical aspect.
> Graham's use of the term 'secondary fermentation'
> wrt ales is undoubtedly
> correct, but I wouldn't call the HB book usage
> incorrect.  The term as used
> in HB books has more to do with early trub removal
> and moving to a closed
> fermenter rather than the late control of the
> fermentation of the last 1P of
> fermentables.  The HB book practice is sound and the
> terminology is
> descriptive but  in conflict with Grahams more
> traditional usage.
> 
> Graham associates "green beer" flavor only with the
> "green" apple aroma of
> acetaldehyde.  I can't agree.   All of the texts
> refer to the full spectrum
> of unresolved young beer flavors - worty aldehydes,
> sulphur compounds and
> particularly diacetyl as indicative of "green beer".
> 
> ---
> 
> On rousing .... there is a very interesting article
> in the most recent
> Journal of ASBC on yeast rousing.   It appears that
> the peak agitation
> levels that occur in a 400kL CCV are about the
> minimum required to obtain
> the greatest yeast growth and quickest attenuation. 
> The authors suggest
> mechanical props for agitation avoid the weaknesses
> of CCV circulation.
> 
> -S
> 




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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:40:54 -0700
From: "Richard Dulany" <richarddulany at hotmail.com>
Subject: winemaking book recommendation

Jay Wirsig writes that he is moving to California and intends to make red 
wine. Jay, in addition to the books and links mentioned by Bill Frazier, I 
highly recommend the book, "Winery Technology & Operations" by Dr. Yair 
Margalit (The Wine Appreciation Guild, 1996). It has a wealth of technical 
information but is not overwhelming.

Your beer making skills and equipment should serve you well in making wine. 
I recommend buying a destemmer if you intend to make red wine and process 
more than 500 lbs. of grapes at a time. Destemming by hand is no fun at all. 
Buy a bigger press than you think you need too. I have a traditional 
Italian-made basket press that works well.

Good luck!
Richard Dulany
El Paso, Texas
(we make wine here too!)






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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:26:59 -0800
From: abarletta at mgm.com
Subject: First Wort Bittering Hops? 

This is my first post after lurking almost a year.  First of all I'd like
to express sincere thanks to the HBD regulars who so freely share their
wisdom with novice brewers like myself.  I am continually impressed by the
wealth of knowledge exhibited, as well as your generosity and patience.
I'm counting on that patience as I ask you to weigh in once again on the
age-old topic of First Wort Hopping, but from a slightly different angle.

Most of what I've read treats FWH as substitute for some or all of the
late-boil flavor/aroma hop additions.  But in brewing a friend's IPA recipe
 this past weekend I somehow added my bittering hops to the first wort
(pre-boil), then added flavor and aroma hops to boil at 15 and 5 minutes
from knockout (with plans to dry hop the secondary).  My concern is that
the stabilization reactions that alpha acids are said to undergo in FWH
might cause more of them to be lost in the hot break (which I routinely
skim), resulting in lower IBUs in the finished beer.   For what it's worth,
the unfermented wort tastes great and seems to have the bitterness I was
shooting for.  Does anyone else have experience with FW additions of
bittering hops?

Tony Barletta
Los Angeles, CA (where life is too short to drink lousy beer)



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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:29:07 -0500
From: "D. Clark" <clark at capital.net>
Subject: aeration

Hi list,

I purchased an oxygen aeration system during the summer and with the cooler 
fall weather here at last, I have started brewing again.  I have used it 
three times so far, in two ales and a wit.  I have not used it to make my 
starters.  My question for the collective is should I oxygenate my wort 
before pitching or after, or won't it matter.  I go for about 50 seconds of 
moderate bubbling through the stone which raises a foamy head in the 
fermenter.  It is my impression that fermentation is quicker and my final 
gravities have definately been lower.  I brew all grain in five gallon 
batches and I have been using the system after pitching.  Any takers?

Dave Clark
Eagle Bridge, New York



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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:51:20 -0500
From: Jeff & Ellen <JeffNGladish at ij.net>
Subject: order of importance?

Victor Franklin wrote, "1. what are the items that control the quality  of 
the beer?  I am looking for the other items such as, the temperature  of 
fermentation, the water chemistry, or the sparging temperature.  2.  The 
second question then is the ranking of the items. Which are  imperatives to 
ensure a consistent quality beer - and which are, or  might just be, 
ancillary items for those who are more interested in the  process versus 
the product?"
For me, without question, yeast is the most important ingredient and 
 procedure in homebrewing.  Make sure you have a big, active starter. 
  After that, chilling the wort to yeast-pitching temp as quickly as 
 possible is priority.  Temperature of fermentation is next, unless you 
 only make styles that love your room temp.  If it seems like I'm saying 
 the same step is the most important, well, I am.  Fermentation will make 
 or break your beer.  I'd advise getting equipment to aid with 
 fermentation, like a wort chiller or a refrigerator.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa, FL



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