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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Potassium Sorbate in Cider (Michael Grice)
  Beer in Anchorage (Scott & =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ch=E9rie?= Stihler)
  Looking for a Christmas Ale Recipe! ("Don Scholl")
  RE: Why would hot break re-dissolve when chilled? ("Houseman, David L")
  Philler Plating ("Dan Listermann")
  re: Too much wort aeration and too much yeast not good? ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: Latest dried yeast equivalency (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Lager yeast types (Paul Shick)
  Re: Why would hot break re-dissolve when chilled? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: "Green" tasting beer (Jeff Renner)
  re: yeast types ("Steve Alexander")
  RE: RE: iodophor and plastic/rubber - What happens? (Eis) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  kraeusening (mwagner)
  Dupont and Rochfort yeast from YCKC (wesolomon)


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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 22:57:41 -0600
From: Michael Grice <grice at binc.net>
Subject: Re: Potassium Sorbate in Cider


>I started a batch of cider yesterday with a blend of store bought
>ciders. I used straight juice and looked for ones that didnt list anything
>other than apple juice or citric acid(vitamin C) on the ingredient
>list. I pitched a few packets of Coopers ale yeast. Today, there is
>no activity. Zero. I suspect there may have been Potassium sorbate or
>some other preservative that wasnt listed. Is that legal? Is there a
>way around this ie pitching massive amounts of yeast, or is all lost?

I'd add yeast nutrient and aerate some more. If that doesn't help, try
adding a more aggressive yeast. I've read that Lalvin EC 1118 is good
for stuck fermtations, and also that it makes good cider (see
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/CidYeast091595.html for more details).
- --Michael


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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 20:11:51 -0900
From: Scott & =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ch=E9rie?= Stihler <stihlerunits at mosquitonet.com>
Subject: Beer in Anchorage

Kevin Bailey wrote:

>Subject: Beer in Anchorage?
>I'll be spending a couple of days in Anchorage
>next week and was wondering if there are any
>can't miss brewpubs to experience while I'm there.

Another brewpub worth checking out while in Anchorage
is the Glacier Brewhouse.  They are kind of expensive but
the food and beers are excellent.

Even if you don't decide to eat there you could always pick up
a growler to go.  I believe the growlers go for about $8.00.

Glacier Brewhouse has be webpage at:
http://www.glacierbrewhouse.com

As Steve Wright has written Mooses Tooth also is very good.
They have excellent pizza and beer. Their webpage is at:
http://www.moosestooth.net.

I've been to the Snow Goose yet but I hear they are also excellent.
I'm afraid they don't have a webpage. However, I have a little
information about them on my webpage at the following URL:
http://www.mosquitonet.com/~stihlerunits/ScottsDen/Beer/Breweries/Anchorage/Slee
pingLady.html

If you are in Anchorage on Friday you might want to check out
the brewery tour at the Midnight Sun Brewing Company. Their
tours are given on Fridays at 6:00 p.m. They also have a wepage
at: http://www.wildales.com.

Also nearby in Eagle River is the first brewpub in Alaska the
Regal Eagle. I've never been there so I can't say a whole lot about it.

In Wasilla which is ~20 miles north of Anchorage is the Great Bear
Brewing Company. I'm afraid I also have not been there but I have
heard good things about them. They have a webpage at:
http://www.greatbearbrewing.com

I hope this helps and  have fun in Anchorage.


Cheers,

Scott Stihler
Fairbanks, Alaska








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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 06:51:14 -0500
From: "Don Scholl" <dws at engineeringdimensions.com>
Subject: Looking for a Christmas Ale Recipe!

Hello, does anyone have a recipe for a good Norwegian Christmas/Holiday Ale.
My wife would like me to brew something for the coming holidays! Thank you
in advance for your help!

Don Scholl
Muskegon, MI



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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 08:17:38 -0500 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Why would hot break re-dissolve when chilled?

Carmen,

You had hot wort with hot break material in it.  It was clear otherwise.
All is normal.  When you cooled this wort, cold break material formed.
These were proteins that were dissolved at the hot temperature but came out
of suspension when cooled.  Again, all is normal.  Over time, this will
settle out for the most part as you observed.  Again, all is normal.  Just
ferment and enjoy.  The final resulting beer may in fact be more clear since
you seemed to have done a good job forming and removing hot break material
and causing a good cold break.  

David Houseman


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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 08:21:44 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Philler Plating

 Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu> mentions that his Philler lost its
plating in bleach.  This can happen and the instructions warn against it.
The plating on the Philler is not chrome, but rather nickel.  This is due to
some assembly considerations.  The plating on the Philtap, Phil's Gasser and
the Counterphil is chrome.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.







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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:14:01 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Too much wort aeration and too much yeast not good? 

Guy writes ...

>I've read opinions here and other places indicating
>that pitching a lot of yeast and aerating the wort as
>much as possible are both ways to improve beer
>quality, but [...]

Not "as much as possible", but damage from overpitching and
overaeration in HB is rare.  Underpitching and underaeration
damage is common.   Underpitching and underaeration can also
lead to stuck or slow fermentations, poor attenuation, and
autolysis with attendant flavor problems.

The advice that ""Ideal oxygen levels are between eight to ten
parts per million" is just a generalization.  Many, perhaps most
yeast work well in this range, but others clearly *require* much
more O2.   Some flocculent ale/stout yeasts require up to 40ppm
of O2 according to the UK NCYC database.  If your yeast is
leaving diacetyl behind, attenuating poorly and slowly - it may well
need more O2 than a single air saturation will give.

Pitching rate - I just read a study where a particular yeast was
overpitched by a factor of 10 to reduce fermentation time and
the resulting beer flavor was still within the commercial (British ale) 
flavor spec.  Don't generalize - but overpitching generally causes
little or no flavor problem.

I think a more correct statement is that low/under pitching or
aeration stresses yeast and creates "stress flavors" that are
part of some beerprofiles.. 

Underpitching and less O2 can cause ....
  more esters,
  more aldehydes (e.g. acetaldehyde),
  more fusels,
  poorer attenuation,
  lower fermentation rate,
  higher VDK (e.g. diacetyl) levels if the fermentation is sluggish.

I think extra esters are the only generally desirable effect and only
in certain styles.  Esters are well known to increase in concentration
as yeast growth is limited - so underaeration and limited pitching are
methods appropriate to some ales.  You should also consider
yeast selection and fermentation temperature as basic factors in
ester control.

I don't think I've ever preferred beer made from a slow dawdling
fermentation to a fast snappy one.  I don't think the stress methods
of low pitching and low aeration ever produce flavors appropriate
to a lager.   Higher gravity (>14P) worts provide plenty of challenges
to yeast growth without adding O2 & low pitching to the list.

At a brewery that uses the same yeast regularly, monitors
viability and pitching rate and oxygenation - I think that pitching
rate control and O2 control can be effectively used to produce
more esters.  To an HBer who has no clue about the viable
cell pitching rate, the vitality or the O2 level and limited
experience w/ the yeast - it's dicey.   I think temp control
and yeast selection are more controllable factors for ester
production in HB.

 -S



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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:02:16 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Latest dried yeast equivalency

reuben.g.burgoyne at accenture.com suggests yeast equivalencies.

A good resource is Scott Murman's yeast page 
http://smurman.best.vwh.net/zymurgy/yeast.html.  While there are no 
equivalents for dry yeasts, by cross referencing the reputed origins 
of the yeasts, you can come up with probable equivalents.  however, 
as noted on the White Labs page, even if yeasts come from the same 
original source, there may be differences.

Back to the subject of Ringwood yeast.  Wyeast calls their W-1187 
Ringwood, but I wonder if it is just a coincidence that NCYC-1187 has 
the same number.  There are often hints as to the origin in Wyeast's 
numbers.  W-2308 is Weihenstephan 308, for instance.

NCYC 1187 is a very different yeast from the one that our local 
Pugsley brewpub uses, which is definitely Ringwood.  NCYC 1187 
doesn't form a top crop whatsoever while the true Ringwood does.  As 
a matter of fact, NCYC-1187 it is well suited to cylindro-conical 
fermenters because is flocculates to the bottom very well.  It also 
doesn't need any oxygenation after it starts, and doesn't produce 
diacetyl.

Does W1187 produce a top crop of yeast?  I've never used it.  If it 
does, then it isn't NCYC-1187.  If it doesn't, then I don't think it 
is Ringwood.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:17:33 -0600
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: RE: Lager yeast types


Hi all,

	Randy Ricchi asks about the source for the assertion
that all lager yeasts can be split into two categories.  I
think the first place that idea showed up was in George and
Laurie Fix's Analysis of Brewing Techniques (about 1994?)
As I recall, his distinction was more along the lines of the
dryness of the finish (and, consequently, whether the yeast
emphasized the malt or hop profile.)  

	Personally, I'm not all that convinced that this is
a worthwhile label to add to yeasts these days, although it 
may tell us something about their ancestry.  Recently, I've
been playing around with several Pilsner yeasts, all of which
should have had pretty much the same pedigree in the not-so-
distant past.  The differences in flavor in split batches are
pretty impressive.  I'll post some summaries when I have something
worth saying.  In the meantime, our club (the SNOBs- Society of 
Northeast Ohio Brewers) just did a group brew at Buckeye Brewing
Co., splitting 3 barrels of Pils wort among 5 yeasts (not all of
them Pils-type yeasts.)  We'll force ourselves to sample them all
at our club meeting in January or February.  So much "research"
to do...

			Paul Shick
			Cleveland Hts, Ohio, where cider
				season is in high gear!


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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 10:02:17 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Why would hot break re-dissolve when chilled?

Carmen Salvatore <carmen.salvatore at lmco.com> is puzzled in Utica, NY 
by his clear hot wort becoming cloudy upon cooling.

Carm, that isn't hot break redissolving but rather cold break, a 
different thing altogether.  These could be (and have been) the topic 
of far deeper discussion, but that isn't what you asked for.  Suffice 
it to say that it's normal, and what's more, good, to have cold break 
form.  It indicates your mash chemistry is good.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 10:12:19 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: "Green" tasting beer

Self professed "girl brewer" Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com> is
worried in Alaska:

>How much can I expect the beer to "mature" in the bottle? It tasted
>somewhat watery, and there was a very "green plant" sort of flavor to
>it... a lot like the hops pellets smelled, only a bit stronger.
>(Underneath that was a faint, espresso-y/stout-y flavor, and it
>smelled great, so there's a good beer in there waiting to get out...
>I just know it!)

Beers aren't bad until they are old and bad.  Yours is probably not
even bad.  Charlie Papazian's mantra "Relax, don't worry, have a
homebrew" (RDWHAHB) applies, but since it's your first batch, you'll
have to relax with an Alaskan Smoked Porter or some other commercial
microbrew, I guess.

It is amazing how beers can change with a little age.  While many
beers taste great at the bottling (or kegging) stage (and this is
always a good sign), many others do not and yet mature into fine
beers.

Some carbonation will probably improve the "watery" aspect, and the
"green plant" flavor is likely hops flavor.  In general, this is
considered out of place in a stout (but not in, say, a pale ale), and
time will likely diminish this.

The high fermentation temperature is not desirable, but it was not
drastically high.  Problem's from high temperatures tend to be fruity
esters and harsh "fusel oils," which are higher alcohols that also
cause headaches.  Introducing O2 into the beer is definitely to be
avoided, but its effects may take some time to show up, and what you
describe doesn't sound like oxidation.

Both of these concerns come under the category, IMBR? (is my beer
ruined?), which is a very common beginner's worry, and for which the
remedy is RDWHAHB.  But your concern is indication of a desire to
control the variables which make good beer, and this is good.  You
are on your way to producing fine beer.

Have fun brewing this weekend, and let us know how the stout is in,
say, a month.

Jeff

PS - great sig quotes.  Three great ones, two by Harry S. Truman.  I
have only one and have used it for years, but it has stood me well.
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 11:57:03 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: yeast types 

Randy Ricchi ....

>There was an article a few years ago in one of those magazines which said
>that all lager yeasts are divided into two categories. I'm going to guess
>the names of these categories since I couldn't find the article in question
>to verify. I believe the two types were Carlsberg and Tuborg.

The old (pre-1970) classification was to divide lager yeasts into
S.uvarum and S.carlbergensis.  In 1970 this was recognized as
incorrect and these were merged under S.uvarum which was
positioned as S.cerevisiae var. uvarum in 1990.  Later work in
1992 thru 1998 has reclassified S.cerevisiae var.carlbergensis as
S.pastorianus !!   Boulton & Quain in BY&F state, "There is now
good evidence that in terms of DNA relatedness,bottom fermenting
yeast [uvarum & carlbergensis] are more correctly classified
S.pastorianus".

There have been genetic studies that show lager yeast clearly
divide into carlbergensis and uvarum types - while ale yeasts
have more diverse origins.  There was also a study that
examined American lager yeasts and showed that all originated
from Tuborg or Carlsberg breweries around 150 years ago.

>Assuming that is correct, I think it was said that the Carlsberg types
>threw sulfur during fermentation and the Tuborg types did not.
>They listed  a few of the yeast brands available to homebrewers which
>were Carlsberg  types, but I think they only listed one which was a
>Tuborg type.

I've never heard this about sulfur (I assume we're talking H2S and
SO2) vs lager types.

>What I would like to know is which Wyeast, Brewtek, or White Labs yeasts
>are Tuborg type lager yeast.

Same here !

Wy2042 "Danish lager" is a good bet for S.carlbergensis.   I've read
non-authoritative sources that Wy2007 and wy2278 are carlbergensis
and 2278 can certainly produce sulfur aroma.

 -S



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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:10:25 -0500 
From: "Jones, Steve (Eis) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: RE: iodophor and plastic/rubber - What happens?

Adam, I think the link you are looking for is
http://www.bayareamashers.org/iodophor.htm

Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN; State of Franklin Homebrewers
http://hbd.org/franklin
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
Member: AHA, AHA Board of Advisors, and AHA Liaison
Have a suggestion on improving the AHA? email me at stevejones at aob.org



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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 20:03:56 -0300
From: mwagner <mwagner at alean.com.ar>
Subject: kraeusening

Hi Folks!! 
Searching for light for my brain...... 
Here from Argentina I'm trying to figure the way to calculate in general the 
required amount of speise I need to carbonate a given Beer. 

My procedure: 
After boiling the Wort I stock let say 10% of wort for further use at the 
bottling time. 

On the other hand, I get the chilled remaining 90% (from here I know O.G.) and 
after pitching with my prefeared Yeast I'll get the F.G. after a couple of 
days. 
With O.G. and F.G. I can get an idea of the percentage of fermentable sugars 
from my wort. 
Let say I sarted with 14 Plato and finished with 4 Plato 
This makes an attenuation (related to the amount of fermentable sugars) of 

(14 - 4)/14 X 100 = 71.4 % 

This figure means I had 71.4 % of fermentable sugars, the same amount I have 
in the speise I Kept for primming. 

Also I can figure with the tables of gas dilution and temperature the amount 
of remaining volumes of CO2 disolved in my beer after fermentation. 
Let say at the temp of my Kegg I have 1 volume and I now want to go till 2.7 
volumes adding the speise at bottling time (second fermentation at  bottle 
level, perhaps also adding a fresh Yeast). 

And now the BIG question for me. 

How much of speise to use to add this 1.7 volumes to my beer? 

Papazian gives in his book an easy way to calculate this, but is looks too 
easy for me. 
Why? 

It uses OG as the main variable. But I can have 2 diferents worts with the 
same OG but diferent fermentability due to different composition of the wort, 
different proportions of glucose, maltose, maltotriose and dextrins. 
Also I know 3.7 grams of glucose produce 1 vol CO2, but How many grams of 
maltose produce 1 vol of CO2? And the same for maltotriose and other 
fermentables I get in the wort. 

Sorry for all this lines and the errors you can find in my english (spanish is 
my mother language). 

I know Eric Warner explains the Kraeusening method in his Book "German Style 
Wheat Beers", but I can't get it here and due to Argentine economical 
situation is hard now for me to buy it from Amazon.com. 

Any help will be welcomed, also in private is OK for me. 


Best Regards, 

Mauricio Wagner 
Buenos Aires - Argentina 
FAX: +5411-4958-0315 
e-mail: mwagner at alean.com.ar 



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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 20:09:00 -0500
From: wesolomon at comcast.net
Subject: Dupont and Rochfort yeast from YCKC

Has anyone used YCKC A76 (Dupont) or A 25 (Rocheforte) yeast.  What are the
optimal temperatures for fermentation? I am planning on testing them in a
single wort this weekend.
OG 1.060
75% Pilsner
10% Malted Wheat
2.5% Acid  Malt
2.5% Victory
2.5% Melanoidan (can't get aromatic)
2.5% Caravienne
5% Light candy sugar
I  have used ommegang yeast from the bottle and the wyeast 3944 (both need
to be warm and take a while to ferment) so I expect these to be warm
fermenters also.

I would appreciate suggestions for a dupont style saison.

Thanks.
Bill in CT



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