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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  SC03 is coming... (Rusty)
  Yeast and O2 ("Sven Pfitt")
  Cider Update ("John Misrahi")
  speise (Marc Sedam)
  words from Henry Wadsworth Brewfellow (darrell.leavitt)
  Re: kraeusening (Jeff Renner)
  CAP for extract brewers (Jeff Renner)
  Malt vinegar? (Bill Wible)
  Christmas Ale Recipe ("Kent Porter")
  lager yeast types (Randy Ricchi)
  Re: Potassium Sorbate in Cider ("Steve Alexander")
  dry hopping (Marc Morency)
  Re: Keg descriptions (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Hambleton Bard Pressure Barrel ("John Misrahi")
  Thank you (brian.dougan)
  Dryhop warning ("Mike Brennan")


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 05:13:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Rusty <kahuna_kapu at yahoo.com>
Subject: SC03 is coming...

187 days and counting.  Time to start those Alts and Meads...

http://www.cfhb.org



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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 08:40:06 -0500
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Yeast and O2

The recent discussions on yeast pitching rates and O2 concentration has me 
wondering if it is possible to over-oxigenate a starter.

I'm trying to configure a system for the ultimate in 'big healthy yeast 
starters'.

I recently configured a 2L flask on a stir plate with a two hole stopper. 
One stopper has a hose to the bottom of the flask with an air stone on it. 
Air is provided from an aquarium pump. Since this produces lots of foam when 
the air pump is running and the stir plate is running. I connected a blowoff 
tube from the second hole in the stopper through a lid in a 1qt mason jar. 
The tube is submerged in a pint of water. A second hole in the mason jar has 
a stopper with an airlock.

When running there is lots of foam that gets pumped into the econd vessle 
which is a water filter. Since this foam contains yeast, it ends up settling 
in the second container. So, basically this is a continuous yeast skimming 
operation with continuous air bubbled through the wort.

In 48 Hrs it has produced about 3/8 of a cup of yeast in the collector 
vessel, from a 1L starter in the primary vessel.

There is a picture of the setup when I started it running at:

http://www.thegimp.8k.com/images/pb060002.jpg

Good healthy Yeast? I won't know till I try using it on a batch of beer.

Comments? Recomendations?

rev Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck






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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 09:00:44 -0500
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: Cider Update

Well,
I think the Coopers ale yeast i had pitched in my cider was a bit too
old...I waited and waited..and pitched 2 packets of lalvin Ec-1118 champagne
yeast. it took off and has quite a big krausen for cider, the airlock is
bubbling every second or 2.

 I used only the juice with some nutrient and the yeast, but i am thinking
of adding some sugar to make it a bit stronger as an afterthought. I have 2
ideas. One is to make a sugar solution and add it to the secondary, then
rack the cider onto it. THe other is to add it directly to the primary. I
have some liquid cane sugar i got one at a specialty food store and since
the bottle is still sealed it should be sterile (i think) . I might use
that.

Also, i've used EC-1118 once before for cider, last fall. We made 50L of
cider from freshly pressed juice. Just juice, cider and nutrients. To one
bucket we added some frozen raspberries (i dont have the amount handy, but
it wasnt enough!). The cider is great. We put most in champagne bottles. It
is super dry but retains some good apple flavour, though people either like
it or hate it. The latter becuase its 'not sweet enough'. Boo hoo hoo, more
for me! :-)

John
Montreal, Canada


Pothole?  Thats luxury!  I have to ferment directly in my mouth.  On brew
day I fill up my mouth with wort in the am and drop a few yeast cells in and
3 hours later I swallow.  Wish I had a pothole to ferment in. -Mike Brennan
on the HBD

"Ah, Billy Beer... we elected the wrong Carter." -Homer Simpson




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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 09:08:50 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: speise

Mauricio from Argentina wants to talk about speise...

As with most good HBD replies, I won't quite directly answer your 
question.  At some point in the past I tried to figure out this exact 
question and ran through the calculations (which are actually not that 
hard).  The answer I kept coming up with was that adding two quarts of a 
"normal" OG wort (1.040-1.060) will get you the carbonation you're 
looking for.  If you're making a giant beer (OG>1.090) you can use just 
one quart.

The difference in carbonation between two quarts of 1.040 priming wort 
and 1.060 priming wort is barely noticeable.  I know I couldn't tell the 
difference between a beer with 1.7vol/CO2 and one with 2.0vol/CO2.  

Like I said, it's neither exact nor scientific but it works fine.  In 
fact I just primed a pony keg of CAP (Renner...it's my best one yet) and 
a corny of Schwarzbier with this method and they both carbonated 
perfectly.  Two days at room temp after addition of wort and...badda 
bing...perfectly carbonated brews.

Hope this helps.

Cheers!
Marc
"Cerevesaris felicitus"



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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 09:15:56 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: words from Henry Wadsworth Brewfellow


  "Lives of great brewers all remind us, we can make our ales sublime,
   And, departing, leave behind us, footprints on the sands of time"
                                       -Henry Wadsworth Brewfellow





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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 10:24:32 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: kraeusening

Mauricio Wagner <mwagner at alean.com.ar> writes from Buenos Aires:

>Here from Argentina I'm trying to figure the way to calculate in general the
>required amount of speise I need to carbonate a given Beer.
><snip>
>Let say I sarted with 14 Plato and finished with 4 Plato
>This makes an attenuation (related to the amount of fermentable sugars) of
>
>(14 - 4)/14 X 100 = 71.4 %
>
>This figure means I had 71.4 % of fermentable sugars, the same amount I have
>in the speise I Kept for primming.

Well, there is a problem here.  The 71.4% is apparent attenuation, 
not real attenuation.  The specific gravity of the finished beer is 
pulled down by the alcohol, which has a specific gravity of 0.8. 
Fortunately, you can calculate the real attenuation.  More about this 
in a moment.

>It uses OG as the main variable. But I can have 2 diferents worts with the
>same OG but diferent fermentability due to different composition of the wort,
>different proportions of glucose, maltose, maltotriose and dextrins.
>Also I know 3.7 grams of glucose produce 1 vol CO2, but How many grams of
>maltose produce 1 vol of CO2? And the same for maltotriose and other
>fermentables I get in the wort.

One gram of any of these sugars produces 0.46 gram CO2, or close 
enough to 1/2 as much CO2 as sugar.  Warner's books have convinced me 
that grams of CO2 per 100 ml beer (% CO2 by weight) is a much better 
way (IMO) of specifying carbonation than volumes.  The advantage is 
that you don't have to worry about under what conditions is the 
volume of CO2 specified.  The typical German lager has 2.3 volumes of 
CO2 or 0.45% by weight.  But don't forget to include the amount of 
CO2 that is dissolved in your beer before adding the speise.  Warner 
covers this as well as calculations for adding speise.

>I know Eric Warner explains the Kraeusening method in his Book "German Style
>Wheat Beers", but I can't get it here and due to Argentine economical
>situation is hard now for me to buy it from Amazon.com.

We brewers have to watch out for one another.  I've scanned and sent 
you separately the four relevant pages from Warner's book.  I hope 
they help.

BTW, adding unfermented wort, or speise, is somewhat different from 
actual kraeusening, in which newly fermenting beer/wort at high 
kraeusen (kraeusenbier) is added to the finished beer.  This not only 
carbonates the beer but cleans up unwanted fermentation products, 
most notably diacetyl.  It is also reputed to have other advantages 
such as longer lasting head and greater resistance to oxidation.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 11:06:16 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: CAP for extract brewers

Brewers

I opened my new Williams Brewing catalog yesterday and was very 
pleased to see that they have two pre-pro kits made with extract 
mashed with 30% flaked corn, Old American Ale and Old American Lager 
(see http://www.williamsbrewing.com/).  While I'd like to see them 
hopped at a higher level (they are 23 and 21 IBUs respectively), that 
is a simple matter to remedy.  They also have the malt extract 
itself, which they used to carry some years ago.

This means that Classic American Pilsners (CAP) are easily in the 
reach of all extract brewers.  Perhaps the most often question I get 
asked by brewers who have read my articles in Brewing Techniques and 
Zymurgy is "How can I brew this if I don't do all grain?"  I've 
always had to suggest the poor alternative of rice extract or a 
mini-mash with flaked corn, which is nearly as much trouble as 
all-grain.

While I haven't used these kits, I used to use William's extracts 
back in the 80s before I became an exclusively all-grain brewer, and 
have brewed their kits more recently with several beginning brewers. 
I have found them to be of excellent quality.  I like the fact that 
their extracts are not canned and are very fresh.

I think if I were to make an all extract CAP. I might opt for a 
little less than 30% corn.  I use 22% in my all-grain brews, and you 
can hit this exactly by buying a 6 pound pouch of the American lager 
extract (30% corn) and one of American light (all two-row).  Then use 
all of the malt/corn pouch and 2 lbs of the all malt extract, and 
freeze the remaining four pounds to preserve freshness to use later.

Then, I'd suggest using enough Cluster hops for authenticity (don't 
know what is in the kit but Williams doesn't carry Cluster) to bitter 
to ~30 IBUs, and Saaz or Hallertauer or new American equivalent 
hybrid (Ultra, Crystal, Mt. Hood, etc) for flavor and aroma, to get 
~35 IBU total.  You could even do a first wort hopping by dissolving 
the extract to get 5.5 gallons or so, then steep your late addition 
hops at ~170F for 30-60 minutes before proceeding with the boil.

The ale kit might be great as is for a more or less modern Canadian 
ale (well, 1960's), or with more hopping and less corn for a Classic 
American cream Ale (CACA)

If anyone tries these products, please let me know.
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 11:23:29 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Malt vinegar?


I'm currently trying to make malt vinegar.  The instructions
say to add the mother to finished beer, and you have to
leave the culture uncovered because air is needed for
conversion, and you have to put it in a warm place.

I added 2 mother of malt vinegars (I used 2 because they
were pretty old) to 4 different old bottles of beer I
had lying about - 2 cans of Schaeffer, a Ruddle's County,
and a bottle of Ommegang, which is belgian beer.  This
should make for a pretty decent vinegar.

Anyway, I mixed all this in a clean and sanitized gallon
jug and sat the thing on top of my fridge.  It's been about
3 weeks.  What does a "mother culture" look like?

At this point, I have a large, white, flat pancake looking
thing that takes up the entire surface of the liquid floating
just under the surface.  It kind of looks like a coffee filter
pad, but thicker.  It's white, flat, smooth, and very even.
I swirled the liquid, and it sank.  I'll check tonight whether
its floating again or not.

Nothing in the cultures I added looked like that, which is why
I'm wondering.  The cultures I added had small, loose particles,
and they were grey-ish, not white like this thing.

I'm just curious whether this seems normal, or if anybody who
has any experience with what this thing should look like can
tell me, etc.

Thanks

Bill 



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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:26:10 -0800
From: "Kent Porter" <kporter at well.com>
Subject: Christmas Ale Recipe

Don Scholl asked for a good Norwegian Christmas/Holiday Ale. I made this one
for last year's holiday season:     http://www.byo.com/recipe/210.html

I substituted 1 tsp good quality vanilla extract (I did not have vanilla
bean). In addition to the spices called for in the recipe, I used 0.5 tsp
whole cloves, and 1 tsp cinnamon, steeped while cooling. I also put in ~100
g. candied ginger (chopped) for 15 min of the boil.

OG 1.060
FG 1.012

The result was very good after 4 weeks in the bottle.


Kent Porter
Omaha, Nebraska



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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 13:45:51 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: lager yeast types

The other day I mentioned I was trying to find an article I once read
about lager yeasts being being seperated into two categories. Well I
found it (although I don't have it right in front of me as I type this)

The article was by Ray Daniels and was in an issue of Zymurgy devoted
mostly to lagers. I believe he was saying that one class of lager yeasts
(carsberg-type) was sulfur producing, and the other (tuborg) was estery.
He gave only one example of the tuborg type, Wyeast 2007.

Examples he gave for carlsberg yeasts were Wyeast 2206,2308,2214, among
others.

Interestingly, George Fix in "Analysis of brewing techniques" broke
lager yeasts out into two categories, which he distinguished as "malty",
and  (I think) "dry/crisp" .
Some of the examples George gave for the "malty" yeasts were the same
ones Ray gave for the "sulfury" yeasts. I believe Wyeast 2007, which Ray
classified as estery, was one of the examples George gave for
"dry/crisp".

It is an interesting subject. I'm not crazy about sulfur in my beer, but
I have noticed that many of the strains that throw sulfur end up with a
nice malt character after the sulfur is reduced. I recall reading in
Brewing Techniques somewhere that it was thought by some that lagers
with all sulfur character removed were somewhat insipid. In my
experience it takes 6 to 8 weeks of cold storage (46F or so) before the
sulfur levels were mostly reduced and I could enjoy my beers. This is
why I have an interest in lager yeasts that aren't as sulfury. I'm
thinking maybe beers produced with estery yeasts may require less
lagering time before they taste good. If I was a patient man I may have
taken up winemaking as a hobby :^)

I think it was George Fix's description of the non-sulfury yeasts as
producing "dry" beers that scared me away from trying them. Maybe I
shouldn't put so much stock in a one-word description.

If the Wyeast 2007 yeast is the "St. Louis" strain, I used it one time a
few years ago to make a very light American style pilsener. It had the
apple-ester, and was a very nice beer. I don't recall if there was a
long waiting (lagering) period for that beer. Perhaps I should
experiment with some of the other "estery" lager yeasts.

I used to think that one sign of a good lager was that there were no
esters. To me, estery meant ale-like, and lager beer meant no esters.
Lately, I've been  re-thinking that. Obviously, we wouldn't want a lager
with the ester character of an English ale, but I believe some subtle
ester character is needed for a beer to taste "beery".

Perhaps the HBD community would be interested in sharing their
experiences with the various lager yeasts available to us. Sulfury?
Estery? Dry? Malty? Long lagering times needed, or short? For those of
us in the US of A, it's a timely subject, since winter is just about
here.





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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:32:01 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Potassium Sorbate in Cider

Michael Grice writes ...

>>I started a batch of cider yesterday with a blend of store bought
>>ciders. [...]
>> I pitched a few packets of Coopers ale yeast. Today, there is
>no activity. Zero. I suspect there may have been Potassium sorbate or
>>[...]

>I'd add yeast nutrient and aerate some more. If that doesn't help, try
>adding a more aggressive yeast. [...].

That would be good advice if this was a stuck fermentation, but it isn't.
It's not a fermentation at all.

I agree with the original poster that something - perhaps a sorbic
acid salt has been added as a preservative.  Sorbic acid is not toxic to
yeast, but does prevent them from fermenting sugars.   Sorbic acid is
used in winemaking to prevent complete attenuation.   If it's sorbate
you can't easily remove it but you may be able to dilute it with unspiked
cider.    Best probably to consider it a failed attempt.  Sorbic acid does
not inhibit bacteria like the E.coli of recent news scares so it's just
there
to increase shelf life.  For fermentation use cider (apple juice for the
non-NA set)  direct from orchards or ones clearly  labeled 'no
preservatives added'.

FWIW I think pasteurization damages the cider flavor very badly in "store
bought" ciders.  Local orchards are the only source of the real thing
 - no preservatives, no  pasteurization - and even then you have to ask.

 -S



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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:56:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Marc Morency <marco_brau at yahoo.com>
Subject: dry hopping

I'v4 been happy with one ounce of Cascades for about a
week, but I like a lot of fresh hop flavor and aroma.
I've used up to two ounces in stronger beers (18-20
plato), which is overpowing at first, but just about
right after a few months.

=====
______________________________________________
Do you like beer? Have you thought of making your own?
Check the Marcobrau Beer Pages - (http://marcobrau.com)



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Date: 08 Nov 2002 15:57:44 -0800
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com>
Subject: Re: Keg descriptions

>> LJ Vitt writes:

>> Cornelius kegs (soda kegs) - come in 3, 5, 10 gal varieties - pin-lock or
>> ball-lock, used for serving, conditioning, fermenting.  What kind of
>> conversions can be performed on them?

LV> The pin-lock and ball-lock valves can be removed.  They are threaded,
LV> and you can install the other type valve yourself. 

Sometimes yes, and sometimes, no.  The ball lock vary even among ball
lock.  Some manufacturers have both threads the same, some the gas is
different from the liquid.  Same way on pin lock.  Most pin lock have
both sides threaded the same, but this is not the same as the
ball-lock.

regards,
dion   (confirmed pin-lock user)
- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck  Email:  hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page:       http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page:    http://hbd.org/hollen



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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:24:31 -0500
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: Hambleton Bard Pressure Barrel

Hi all,

how much sugar should i use to prime a 30L pressure barrel as named above?

it is one with the tiny co2 injector to help maintain a layer of co2 on top
of the beer.

thanks

John
Montreal, Canada
Pothole?  Thats luxury!  I have to ferment directly in my mouth.  On brew
day I fill up my mouth with wort in the am and drop a few yeast cells in and
3 hours later I swallow.  Wish I had a pothole to ferment in. -Mike Brennan
on the HBD

"Ah, Billy Beer... we elected the wrong Carter." -Homer Simpson




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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 20:42:18 -0500
From: brian.dougan at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Thank you



Wow, one short word to sum up the amazing response volume my last posting 
generated.  Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to share information 
in regards to making the switch to all-grain.  I would normally try and have a 
personal response for each person, but I am afraid the ratio of typing skills 
to number of responses necessary doesn't work in my favor, I am sure the last 
few would end up being quite incoherent.  Well, enough of this non-brew rant, 
thanks again for all the great information.  Happy brewing.
 -Brian


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 22:44:58 -0600
From: "Mike Brennan" <brewdude at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Dryhop warning

Ugh,

I love to dry hop my beer in the fermenter and never had a problem before.
Normally I would do it for two weeks in the secondary.  I guess I neglected
the last batch a bit and left it in the secondary for roughly 5 weeks.  The
final product was disgustingly yegh!  Obvioualy spoiled and the sister
carboy (brewed 10 gallons) was clean, so it must have been the dryhops.
What a disappointment, five gallons of undrinkable beer.  Was it bad luck or
what should the maximum dryhopping period  be?



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