---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  import beers ("Bryan L. Gros")
  re: Malt vinegar? ("Steve Alexander")
  re: Yeast and O2 ("Steve Alexander")
  AHA Club Only Comp ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Speise and priming rates (Fred L Johnson)
  Re: Yeast Harvesting (Wendy & Reuben Filsell)
  Looking for guidance in H2O basics... ("Springstead, Randy")
  Barley Wine Time! ("Adam Wead")
  malt vinegar (LJ Vitt)
  re: cider update (John Sarette)
  sanitizing question ("James Payne")
  Re: Keg Descriptions ("Mike Sharp")
  Brew pubs, breweries in Park City, UT ("Lou King")


*
* Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! 
* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*
Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 21:43:53 -0800
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <bgros at aggienetwork.com>
Subject: import beers

Anyone know anything about the following beers:

Rodenbach. Is this still imported?
Schlenferla rauchbier.  I saw this once a couple months ago in a store

Who are the importers?

thanks.


Bryan Gros       bgros at aggienetwork.com
Oakland, CA

Draught Board Homebrew Club
http://www.draughtboard.org



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 02:51:30 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Malt vinegar?

Bill writes ..

>I'm currently trying to make malt vinegar.

Hops bitterness aren't good in vinegar but they'll fade in time.   Roast
malts aren't good either  IMO.  The ideal beer for a vinegar might use
crystal or munich malt, no hopping, and have an SG around 1.060 or 1.070.
n-Bocks might be a decent off the shelf choice.

>What does a "mother culture" look like?

Bill answers his own question  ....

>[...]  I have a large, white, flat pancake looking
>thing that takes up the entire surface of the liquid floating
>just under the surface.  It kind of looks like a coffee filter
>pad, but thicker.  It's white, flat, smooth, and very even.

That's an aceto-bacterial mat - it doesn't matter if it sinks, but
it restricts oxygen access when floating.  Aceto's exude a
gelatinous polysaccharide that forms the mat.   If it sinks a
new mat usually forms on the surface.  They can get thick
(1 inch !) and rubbery and are a PITA to remove thru a
carboy bunghole.   The mats look and feel like a "Fear
Factor" meal.

>The cultures I added had small, loose particles,
>and they were grey-ish, not white like this thing.

Most mutha's have a sort of floating gelatinous blob which is
just a piece of the mat.   Even very small pieces will regrow
a mat.

>I'm just curious whether this seems normal

Completely normal - perfect.  When it smells and tastes like
decent vinegar cap it - remove the O2 or else pasteurize & bottle.
If left in air too long the fermentation may go too far and often
produce solventy smelling esters. It may take weeks to months
to finish - very variable and much slower than a yeast
fermentation.

When it smells & tastes good you can filter then pasteurize by
simmering it for a minute and bottle it for use.  To make malt
or salad vinegars like store brands you need to add some
table sugar - about 25-30 grams per liter (2TBS per quart)
before the simmer.  Afterward the vinegar will throw a little
sediment and sometimes grow a mat in the bottle.

You can add more finished beer to the vinegar fermenter &
mat to start the next batch.

Acetobacteria  are not a particularly serious infection
threat in the brewhouse.  Use normal sanitation
procedures and keep separate plastics.

 -S





Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 03:49:44 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Yeast and O2

Sven Pfitt (really?) writes,

>The recent discussions on yeast pitching rates and O2 concentration has me
>wondering if it is possible to over-oxigenate a starter.

Yes.   Anaerobically grown yeast when pitched into continuously aerated wort
progressively use more & more O2 for the first 4 or 5 hours then the rate
drops for another 4-5 hours.   Eventually you can get the yeast to respire
(rather than ferment) which isn't making beer.   Saturation levels of oxygen
will be used up by oxidation processes in UNPITCHED wort in a short time (8
hours as I recall) and the resulting oxidation flavors negative.

Yeast require oxygen to form sterols and unsaturated fatty acids.   Most
brewing yeasts are capable of taking a big gulp of air then living 3 or 4
generations anaerobically by sharing these lipids with daughter cells.
Yeast are pseudo-anaerobes and this is certainly the way we should treat
then in a beer fermentation (not a starter).   Adding air much beyond
pitching time+12hours is going to have a flavor impact.    You may need to
do it to get a highly flocculent ale yeast to perform but diacetyl and
aldehydes are likely products.

When you have a yeast cake or slurry that you intend to reuse, this yeast
typically  has minimal amounts of sterols & UFA.   If the fermentation
finished well this yeast has considerable storage carbohydrates - trehalose
and glycogen.    When given oxygen they expend the glycogen as they produce
sterols & UFAs.    You can measure the glycogen level as a crude yeast
vitality test with iodine - but it's meaningless unless you keep the yeast
anaerobic to prevent sterol creation.

There is a patented yeast handling method that takes anaerobic slurry and
passes oxygen into it for a period of hours - till the measured rate of
yeast O2 uptake peaks - about 4-5 hours.    The yeast are then stored cold
and pitched into UNoxygenated wort.      This method produces
indistinguishably similar beers, but the very odd thing is that the amount
of yeast growth necessary for full attenuation is much less (12 gram/liter
vs 17 gm for normal handling).  Unexplained mystery here.

The anaerobic yeast will store reasonably well at any cool temperature, but
the oxygenated sterol rich yeast must be stored at around 2C(35F) or else
given fermentables to keep the viability high.

>I'm trying to configure a system for the ultimate in 'big healthy yeast
starters'.

>I recently configured a 2L flask on a stir plate with a two hole stopper.
[...]

Very interesting method.  Please let us know how it works out.

My hunch is that you may need to including some fermentables or cool storage
for the second yeast collector jar.  If you could merge the oxygenation to a
pump that feeds fresh wort  based on the fermentation rate you might be
another step closer.

Making yeast and making beer are two different things.   To grow yeast you
want to keep the SG low, the temps warm, the amount of monosaccharides low
and give plenty of oxygen.    Growing yeast aerobically (via respiration not
fermentation) on an unfermentable media is nearly ideal for increasing yeast
mass efficiently & fast.   Of course these methods will produce a *lot* of
very undesirably flavor products.

 -S




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 08:09:13 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: AHA Club Only Comp

Hogtown Brewers is proud to host the 2002 AHA Club Only Competition for
Categories 21 Fruit Beer and 22 Spice/Herb/Vegetable Beer. I'd like to notify
everyone about a change of date. We are pushing both the entry deadline &
judging date back one week from the dates listed in Zymurgy & on the AHA
Beertown website (though the website will soon be changed to reflect the new
dates). This was done because of a conflict in dates with the Walk the Line on
Barleywine competition (see AHA calendar for details) which is being held on
the weekend of Dec 7th, our original date. Hogtown Brewers stepped in at the
last minute to host the Club Only comp and we chose the date without realizing
the conflict. We changed dates because I wanted to be able to draw on some of
the most experienced Florida judges to supplement our club's judges in the
interest of providing the best possible feedback to the entrants. We figured
the extra week wouldn't cause any problems, but I'm sorry if this caused any
confusion.

Anyhow, the judging will be Dec 14th. You can send your entries anytime up
till Dec 9th. Entries will be stored in Wayne Smith's walk-in beer cooler (you
can imagine the envy that's caused among the rest of us) & the judging held at
Wayne's as well. So if you get your entry in early,  the beers will have a
chance to settle in the cooler & be judged in good condition.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL



We now have the technology for a fully online entry experience (but you still
need to mail in the entries). We will accept snail mail entry forms, but
strongly encourage the easy and fully automated online registration. Click the
link to go to the fast and easy online registration wizard.

http://www.hordsoffun.com/hbc/regwiz.asp?w=0A0B091F1C

When: Dec 14 2002 - Gainesville, FL
What: AHA Fruits & Veggies Club-Only Competition
Who: Open to all AHA Registered Clubs, 1 entry per club.
Styles: Categories 21 Fruit Beer and 22 Spice/Herb/Vegetable Beer.
Sponsoring Club: Hogtown Brewers of Gainesville, FL.
Entry Deadline: 12/09/02.
Fees: $5.00.
Judging: 12/14/02.

Ship Entries to:
Wayne Smith
5327 CR 346 E.
Micanopy, FL 32667

Contact: Dave Perez Phone: 352-316-6796
Email: perez at gator.net

**Please remember that both categories require that you specify the underlying
style as well as the Fruit, Spice, Vegetable, or Herb used.***

For more information about AHA Club only competitions, please visit the AHA
website http://www.beertown.org/AHA/Clubs/clubcomp.htm






Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 08:32:16 -0500
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Speise and priming rates

Marc Sedam responded to Mauricio's questions regarding speise:

> The difference in carbonation between two quarts of 1.040 priming wort
> and 1.060 priming wort is barely noticeable.  I know I couldn't tell the
> difference between a beer with 1.7vol/CO2 and one with 2.0vol/CO2.

I cannot speak to Marc's perceptions of carbonation and I would concede to
his personal experience, but I would expect these two worts to produce
significant differences in carbonation levels in the final product (with
some qualification as explained below).

If one is about to add the same volume of 1.040 wort and 1.060 wort as
speise, the 1.060 wort has exactly 50% more fermentable sugar in it compared
to the 1.040 wort, assuming these two worts are actually the same wort at
different concentrations.  Accordingly, the 1.060 wort can be expected to
produce exactly 50% more carbon dioxide as the 1.040 wort.

The degree to which these different wort additions will affect the final CO2
level (i.e., the relative change in carbonation level) in the final beer
depends upon the amount of CO2 in the beer at the time the addition is made
and depending upon the amount of CO2 that escapes during the addition.
Let's face it, transferring the typical small homebrewing batch of beer to
bottling buckets, kegs, and  bottles gives lots of opportunity for CO2 to
escape at the time of the addition of the priming sugar or speise.

Anybody tried to measure CO2 levels immediately after such transfers? I'd
love to know.  My guess is that they are actually pretty low and perhaps
lower than published in most homebrewing texts.

If one knows the fermentability of the wort being added to carbonate, one
should be able to know quite accurately the level of carbonation that will
be added by the addition.  What is harder to know is how much CO2 is in the
beer after the addition.  All of this, of course, also applies to priming
with dextrose or anything else for that matter.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 22:40:33 +0800
From: Wendy & Reuben Filsell <filsell at myplace.net.au>
Subject: Re: Yeast Harvesting



> From: homebrew-request@hbd.org (Request Address Only - No Articles)
> Reply-To: homebrew at hbd.org (Posting Address Only - No Requests)
> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 00:33:23 -0500
> To: homebrew at hbd.org
> Subject: Homebrew Digest #4089 (November 09, 2002)
> 
> Good healthy Yeast? I won't know till I try using it on a batch of beer.
> 
> Comments? Recomendations?

Nice idea mate, I have devised a similar set up, (sorry no pics).
I went slightly larger and used a 1 gallon Jug for the starter.
I don't use distilled water but sterile water, using water with the natural
salts in it minimises the osmotic shock thing when transferring yeast from
beer to water. 
Can I assume from the air filter that your yeast aerater came from 3B?
If so a couple of tips,
 
those small air filters clog up quite fast so I upgraded to a 50mm diameter
filter, much more betterer. You may like to set up a pre- filter with some
cotton wool to extend the life of the sterile filter.
 
Also the small aeration stone is quite coarse and produces more foam than
necessary I had to use my carbonation stone ("the stone" from Hoptech) once
in a pinch and found it produced a much better result especially when I
plugged the air pump into a simmerstat (from my H.L.T) that turns the pump
on and off periodically so you can get the foam production "just right".

Also you can use the collection side of the system to harvest top fermenting
yeast from the head in your fermentor rather than collecting the spent yeast
from the bottom!!

Finally I keep my air filters when not in use in a sterile jar with a wad of
cotton wool soaked in isopropyl alcohol just to be sure.

Cheers,
Reuben.
Western Australia.



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:35:44 -0500 
From: "Springstead, Randy" <Randy.Springstead at HollandUSA.com>
Subject: Looking for guidance in H2O basics...

Hello Fellow Brewers,

I'm writing in request of the best way for me to get/perform an evaluation
of the water the City of Muskegon provides for producing beer.
An evaluation as through as necessary for a sold base, one the gives the
here you are and this needs to be adjusted to produce the brew I want.

1 - How through should I test?
2 - What supplies are required to test?
3 - Should/can I test or is this better done professionally?
3 - What am I looking for and what is its specific importance to brewing?
4 - Possibly a good layman's publication that would help.

Any help I can get in this area would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance,
 -oldshoe

Brewing in Muskegon, MI
springs28 at attbi.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 10:08:48 -0700
From: "Adam Wead" <a_wead at hotmail.com>
Subject: Barley Wine Time!


Fellow Brewing Brethern:

I'm going to venture out and make my first barley wine.  I'm planning way 
ahead on this one, and will let it age so that I have it ready for next 
Christmas (2003!).

I need some general advice on pitching and aeration.

I'm shooting for a very high gravity, on or over 1.100.  I'm planning on 
using Wyeast 1214 smack-pack, although I have 1084 and 1056 available as 
well from the "yeast ranch."  I'll step it up to a 700 ml vessel I use as a 
starter.  Then, I'll step it up a few times in that same vessel by adding 
fesh wort so that I have a nice amount of slurry...at least a cup worth.  
And, I'll think I'll go ahead and spring for an air pump to aerate it the 
final batch.

Any comments?  How long should I have the air pump running to aerate the 
final batch of wort?

As always, thanks for the advice...

Adam Wead
(Bloomington, IN)
[258.5, 214.1] Apparent Rennerian












Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:19:20 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: malt vinegar


Bill told his story about making malt vinegar. 

>At this point, I have a large, white, flat pancake looking
>thing that takes up the entire surface of the liquid floating
>just under the surface.  It kind of looks like a coffee filter
>pad, but thicker.  It's white, flat, smooth, and very even.
>I swirled the liquid, and it sank.  I'll check tonight whether
>its floating again or not.
  
>Nothing in the cultures I added looked like that, which is why
>I'm wondering.  The cultures I added had small, loose particles,
>and they were grey-ish, not white like this thing.
 
>I'm just curious whether this seems normal, or if anybody who
>has any experience with what this thing should look like can
>tell me, etc.

I have a cider vinegar in progress.  It in a 6 gal plastic bucket.
The last time I looked, I saw the same thing with the flat mass 
floating at the top.  I understand that is normal.

I suggest getting a booklet called Making Vinegar at home.
It has 3 authors; Orignally written by Frank Romanowski
revised by Mark Larrow and Gail Canon.  Try the same shop you
bought the mother culter from.

Because of the open air method involved (the culter needs air)
I am afraid to make vinegar in the same house I brew in.
I found another house (my parents) where I can make vinegar.

=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 14:40:06 -0800 (PST)
From: John Sarette <j2saret at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: cider update

>I used only the juice with some nutrient and the
yeast, but i am 
thinking
of adding some sugar to make it a bit stronger as an
afterthought<

Might I suggest a few pounds of honey instead.  It
will add much more character.  I haven't made a
cider/cyser for some years, but I make a nice
dandylion from my front lawn in the spring and very
good pear brew off my trees in the fall and sugar
thins the beverage where honey ages, mellows and adds
complexity over time.

John
up here in Duluth



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:52:20 -0500
From: "James Payne" <jrp3 at carolina.rr.com>
Subject: sanitizing question

Greetings all,

I'm new to homebrewing and the HBD.  I must say, it is an excellent source
of knowledge and information for the novice brewer.  I've already learned a
lot just by reading all the other  posts.

I've brewed one batch of beer that, despite all my mistakes, turned out
pretty good.  I'm ready to start my second batch and have a question about
sanitizing procedures.  I've been told that running my bottles and brewing
equipment (at least the stuff that won't melt) through the dishwasher is an
effective means of sanitizing everything without having to stand for hours
at the sink rinsing everything in B-Brite.  Is this accurate?  I've emailed
3 different people regarding this question and have received 3 different
answers.  I'm hoping to at least get a consensus reply from the readers of
HBD.  Thanks!!!!!

Cheers!
James Payne




Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:06:13 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Keg Descriptions


On 08 Nov 2002 15:57:44 -0800,
Dion Hollenbeck writes:

>Sometimes yes, and sometimes, no.  The ball lock vary even among ball
>lock.  Some manufacturers have both threads the same, some the gas is
>different from the liquid.  Same way on pin lock.  Most pin lock have
>both sides threaded the same, but this is not the same as the
>ball-lock.
>
>regards,
>dion   (confirmed pin-lock user)


I have seen adapters at my LHBS that will convert the common pin lock thread 
to one (not sure which) of the ball lock post threads.  But the resulting 
post stands very high, and is quite expensive (cheaper to buy another keg, 
IMO).

However, if you use disconnects that have the flare fitting on them rather 
than the built-in hose barb,  you can simply swap connectors if you need to 
switch from pin lock to ball lock, and vice versa.  Most of the newer ones 
have a stainless thread on the QD, with a plastic tip, eliminating the need 
for those teeny tiny gaskets.  The disadvantage of this approach is that you 
also have to convince your ball-lock friends to use the flare connectors as 
well, so your pin locks can be used in their keg fridge.

Regards,
Mike Sharp  (ALSO a confirmed pin-lock user!)






Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 19:36:55 -0500
From: "Lou King" <lking at pobox.com>
Subject: Brew pubs, breweries in Park City, UT

Are there any brew pubs in Park City, Utah?  We probably won't have
time, but just in case, are there any breweries nearby?

Thanks in advance.

Lou King
Ijamsville, MD



Return to table of contents

---