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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Cleaning Aeration stone ("Michael O'Donnell")
  Re: priming ("greg man")
  wine, beer, and dementia (Rama Roberts)
  high gravity pitching ("chad. . . .")
  Drilling stainless/ mash tun design? ("Parker Dutro")
  Recipe for Prague Dunkel ("Livia Gaffield")
  Re: Altbier water profile ("Tom Lombardo")
  Classic American Pilsner Recipe/Report/Ranting (william.m.menzl)
  RE: Sanitizing Question ("Walker, Randy")
  Schlenkerla (Calvin Perilloux)
  Re: barleywine pitching (Jeff Renner)
  water profiles (Marc Sedam)
  Re: Rack and add water? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: hops...different with corn? (Jeff Renner)
  Subject: Gott Cooler Mashing - Capacity/Efficiency/Strike Temps ("Mike Racette")
  Kegging/Bottling Basics (william.m.menzl)
  Re: Ideal Conditions for a Yeast Starter (Demonick)
  Re: Horehound Beer (Bill Wible)
  Re: Altbier water profile (Jeff Renner)
  RE: experiments with corn.... (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51 at ICCNET.COM>
  Re: refrigerator tubing as wort chiller? ("Mike Sharp")
  re: what happened? (LJ Vitt)
  sodium hypochlorite? (darrell.leavitt)
  starter question (Himsbrew)
  "Why Life's a Bleach" (more on Sodium Hypochlorite) (darrell.leavitt)
  From whence doth "tripel" derive? (Pat Babcock)
  HBD # 4091 Bottle conditioning ("Fred Scheer")
  Horehound in Beer (J & B Gallihue)


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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:12:38 -0800
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: Cleaning Aeration stone

At 12:45 AM 11/11/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Can I assume from the air filter that your yeast aerater came from 3B?
>If so a couple of tips,


I am looking for advice on cleaning my aeration stone.  I have the 3B one 
mounted on a metal cane.  I have been boiling it to clean it before and 
after use, but then it ends up filled with water.  I am wondering what kind 
of beasties are probably living in there as it dries.

Does anyone have a better suggestion for cleaning and storing my aeration 
stone?

thanks,
mike






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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:14:39 -0500
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: priming


    Speaking of priming, I was wondering how fermentable is Belgian candy 
sugar? I was thinking 100% but I wanted to make sure. The reason of course 
is simple I don't want my hard work to become flat or explosive.
    I was thinking 4 oz or 1/4 lb to 5 oz as I like my Belgian ales to be 
well carbonated. Almost like a weizen.
    Thanks in advance..............gregman











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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:36:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at eng.sun.com>
Subject: wine, beer, and dementia

A study claiming wine drinkers have a lower risk of developing Alzheimer's
and other forums of dementia, while "regular beer drinkers actually had a
higher risk of developing dementia."

The study admits there are other variables which could contribute to
their findings, including diet. The article goes on to say:

'"We have no satisfactory explanation for the increased risk of dementia
associated with beer," the researchers added. But they noted that beer
drinkers sometimes have deficiencies in B vitamins critical for brain and
nerve function.'

http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/conditions/11/11/wine.dementia.reut/index.html

But you know, yeast is high in vitamin B (B1, B2, B3, B6).  It'd be
interesting to see a long term study of wine vs filtered macrobrew (ie
budmillwiser) vs homebrew and their health affects.

- --rama




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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:50:16 -0800 (PST)
From: "chad. . . ." <eclectic_solitaire at yahoo.com>
Subject: high gravity pitching


I sent an email to wyeast asking a few questions and
got a prompt reply, wish id saved it to pass along but
the crux of my questions involved high gravity
worts/musts. (mead and barleywine)  Noting the
barleywine thread I thought id mention the advice I
was given. *note- following this suggestion will mean
you will most likely have to force carbonate* 

Using a high alcohol yeast or champane yeast, prepare
the wort to an OG in the .060 range and allow it to
ferment out, upon racking to secondary, add remainder
of fermentables to bring SG back up and ferment again,
repeat process as needed.

The reasons for this I believe are twofold. One, you
are not pitching into an excessively high gravity
wort/must and Two, will be less stress on the yeast as
its pushed to its abv% tolerance.

While I've yet to do this with a barleywine, I do this
regularly with ales and meads. In fact the ale I
racked to secondary today is the first batch of
anything I have not added something extra to in quite
awhile.

*on a different note*
the clean-out-the-supply-bin ale I made several weeks
ago is now in mini's and bottles. too green yet to say
for sure but the test bottle i drank today makes me
think IPA by flavor and aroma but mouthfeel and color
suggest a deep porter. hoppy but tasty.





=====
cq
cq
cq
cq dx de KM5QF k k kn?



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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:43:23 -0800
From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: Drilling stainless/ mash tun design?

Last brew day rendered my 5.5 gallon plastic cooler/mash tun unusable.
The heat took its toll and severely warped the inside.  So now that I am
in a position to invest in more equipment, I am thinking of converting
one of my 15gln. S.S. pots into a mash/lauter tun.  I think that to do
this I need to drill a hole for a spigot.  I have read that sanitary
welding is the best mode, but is there an alternative, perhaps putting
together a spigot assembly with washers and nuts like you find in an
Igloo picnic cooler (of course using metal components instead of
plastic).  Any ideas are welcome.  Thanks.

Parker Dutro

"Excuse me doctor, but I think I know a little something about
medicine!"
 -Homer Simpson






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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:30:10 +0100
From: "Livia Gaffield" <swissliv at freesurf.ch>
Subject: Recipe for Prague Dunkel


Hi,

Does anybody have a recipe for a Prague Dunkel ? I'm not sure if that is the
proper name for the style. It's a rich brown beer and I believe it's lager.

I've had it in Pragus and recently in Vienna, some of the brewpubs had it
and they referred to it as "Prague Dunkel".

Anyway, a great beer and difficult if not impossible to buy in the bottle so
I thought as lager season approaches, I'd like to make one.

Regards,
RAY Gaffield




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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 06:53:31 -0600
From: "Tom Lombardo" <toml at ednet.rvc.cc.il.us>
Subject: Re: Altbier water profile

Petr writes:
~I am planning to do a Duesseldorfer style Altbier on the weekend.  I have
~read through the archives and my recipe is inspired by Al Korzonas' recipe
~posted in HBD #2827 (except I will need to substitute some of the Munich
~malt for Vienna as I dont have enough).
~
~The one thing I cant seem to find in the archives is the appropriate water
~profile for a Duesseldorfer Altbier.  I have very soft, neutral water, low
~in total dissolved solids, and typically use just a little Calcium
~Chloride
~to boost the Ca level when brewing Pilsners or light lagers.  
~
~Can I assume that Altbier would require a similar water profile to a
~pilsner?

According to Al's book, if you start with distilled H2O, you should add 2
teaspoons of food-grade chalk, and 1/3 teaspoon of gypsum.  

I brewed the Altbier recipe from Al's book, and it turned out great!

Tom
Rockford, Illinois




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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 08:55:32 -0500
From: william.m.menzl at dowcorning.com
Subject: Classic American Pilsner Recipe/Report/Ranting

Back in August I decided that I would try making a Classic American Pilsner
and asked for some suggestions from the Home Brew Digest (#4021).  I got a
lot of good information both on the digest and via personal e-mails!  Jeff
Renner requested "Please report back on your results" in HBD # 4024 and this
note is that report.

I am severely impressed and can't say enough about this beer!  I now see why
Jeff and others have been touting this beer for so long.  I am also dismayed
that this flavor is not available commercially.  Add my name to those who
highly recommend it!  The real test comes this weekend at deer camp when I
put it up against the swill the other guys drink.  I sure hope they don't
like anything but water flavor as I want to keep it all to myself!

The recipe I used is as found in John Palmers "How to Brew"
(http://www.howtobrew.com) for "Your Fathers Moustache" with just the
sacharification rest as Jeff suggested.  I have copied the recipe modified
with my faults and changes below.  This was my second all-grain batch (four
more since) and being a newbie at it, I followed the suggestions in "How to
Brew" for water adjustment.


National Midnight Star Classic American Pilsner
Adapted from the recipe "Your Fathers Moustache" as credited
to Jeff Renner in John Palmer's book "How to Brew".
Note: Recipe is how it was done and not necessary how it should be done.

7 pounds of 6-Row Base Malt
1.75 pounds of Flaked Maize
Crack the malt and mash with maize at 149 degrees F for 1 hour.
Jeff and others suggest 146-148F for a more attenuated beer, or 153-155F for
a less attenuated one.
Mash adjusted to pH 5.3 at mash temp with ~ 1.5 tsp CaCl2
Sparge with 170 degrees F water with a FWH of 3 HBU Saaz.
(Note: runoff real clear after a very short time!)
My efficiency was 76% so technique needed some work.
Bring to boil and add 7.2 HBU of Cluster.
Add 1 caterpillar at some unknown time during the boil.  Found later during
transfer to primary.  (I assume this is optional for the great taste, I love
outdoor brewing!)
After 50 minutes add 2.7 HBU of Tettnang and 1 tsp Irish Moss
After 60 minutes, cut heat and add 1.3 HBU of Tettnang.
Allow to steep 15 minutes.
Cool the wort.  Transfer to Primary fermentor removing hops/break.
Add a starter of Wyeast Bavarian Lager Yeast #2206.
Ferment at 48 degrees F for 19 days.
Transfer to secondary and diacetyl rest at 60 degrees for ~ 36 hours.
Wash yeast from primary and store cool for later use.
Lower secondary to 35 degrees F and lager for 6.5 weeks.
Bottle with 1.25 cups of Extra-light DME and a little of the saved yeast.

I just started kegging and this is going to be on tap at all times.  It is
that good!

William Menzl
Midland, Michigan [99.8, 344.8] Apparent Rennerian

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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 06:12:58 -0800
From: "Walker, Randy" <Randy.Walker at northropgrumman.com>
Subject: RE: Sanitizing Question

I have used my dishwasher many times to sanitize clean bottles.
I've never had a problem with infections. The heated drying cycle
is the key. I pour about 1/4 cup of bleach in before starting
the dishwasher, but no detergent. 

Randy Walker
Northrop Grumman
Navigation Systems Division
Salt Lake City, UT
801-539-1200, X-7484



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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 06:29:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Schlenkerla

Just being pedantic here, but the correct spelling
for the famed Rauchbier is:  Schlenkerla.

Don't be fooled by the alt-deutsches lettering.
That's a k, not an f.   Sadly, one or two *German*
sites even spelled it wrongly!  Arrghhh!!!
Try: http://www.schlenkerla.de/ for the real source.
Let's stop this "Schlenferla" virus from spreading! 



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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:37:49 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: barleywine pitching

Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> gives his advice on barleywine yeast 
and suggests brewing a regular gravity beer and then

>place in a chest freezer when the beer is completely
>done fermenting.  That way I get ALL the yeast from the first batch.

I agree that brewing a five gallon starter is the way to go, but I 
don't like to pitch on top of all the trub, dead yeast, etc. of this 
method.  I love to ferment with true top fermenting ales so that I 
can harvest top yeast.  If you skim the braunheffe (to mix a German 
term with an English style) on the first day or two, it is incredibly 
clean and healthy, and apparently consists of mostly live yeast. 
It's a thick pancake or mat of creamy white yeast.

The best time to skim is when the beer still has a few points of 
fermentables left.  This way the yeast is at its prime and hasn't 
started to "shut down" at the end of the fermentation.  Then I store 
this under an inch of beer in the fridge until I brew again.  Of 
course, while this works especially well for barleywines, I use it 
for all of my ales.  I don't brew often enough to keep a yeast going 
very long, but there are many breweries that keep their yeast this 
way for years.  I suspect that there may be some "killer" factor at 
work here that keeps contaminants at bay.

To do this, you have to ferment in an accessible fermenter, though it 
doesn't have to be actually open.  I ferment in my ten gallon stock 
pot with a spigot that I use to heat my mash and sparge water.  I 
cover it with plastic wrap so I can watch but keep out airborne 
contaminants.  About three days after brewing, I harvest the yeast 
with a perforated flat ladle.  I don't know what it's really called, 
but it consists of a 4.5" barely concave disk with a handle.  You can 
get it in the kitchenware section of stores.

 From the description, it appears that Wyeast 1214 Belgian Ale yeast 
that Adam is considering is a true top cropper.  The other two he 
says he may consider, 1084 and 1056 both are from my experience.  Of 
course, they will give much different results.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:44:11 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: water profiles

There's been some traffic here this week about the "proper" water to use 
for a particular beer.  The whole concept is pretty interesting to me. 
 As has been my wont this week, I'll provide some conjecture and 
anecdotal evidence based on my experience.  Very little science was 
harmed in the composition of this message.

For a period in my brewing, I became slightly obsessed with the proper 
water profile for each beer.   I had a good pH meter, lots of mineral 
salts, and used the "ppm calculator" on BreWater or ProMash to get it 
spot on (NAYYY).  I found ways to put CaCO3 (calcium carbonate) in water 
via bubbling CO2, and all sorts of other things to ensure that my beers 
were authentic.

Then I had a beer from an unnamed brewpub who claimed the water was 
adjusted to be exactly the same as Burton-on-Trent (a highly suspect and 
virtually unbelievable claim based on the taste), the ancestral home of 
IPA.  This beer tasted closer to ocean water than beer, and smelled more 
like Old Faithful (sulfur) than an IPA.  It's one of the few beers I've 
ever spit out that wasn't infected.  You can take the concept a little 
too far.

In addition, I did an experiment (published in Zymurgy some time back) 
where I brewed four IPAs with four different water profiles: 
 Burton-on-Trent (sulfate), Dortmund (carbonate), Dublin (also 
carbonate), and Chapel Hill (near dead-ringer for Plzen water...very 
soft).  The beers were blinded and taste tested.  The beer most 
preferred was the BoT IPA, but the second most preferred beer was the 
unadulterated one.  The scores were VERY close, and an equal number 
preferred the Chapel Hill IPA and the BoT IPA.  The BoT version had 
higher overall scores and had a very mild sulfate aroma that mingled 
well with the hops.  It most certainly did *not* smell like Old 
Faithful.  :-)

The more I read on water profiles the more I realized that brewers were 
creating beers to get "around" their particular profiles, not to accent 
them.   Did Dublin become the home to stout because they made great 
stouts or because stouts used enough roasted malts to drop the pH of the 
mash to the point where it was possible to get complete conversion and 
clear beer, with other beers brewed in Dublin being inferior for just 
the opposite reasons.  And remember that most brewers with carbonate 
water try to either treat or boil the water to force the carbonate OUT 
of the water.

Nowadays the only mineral addition I make is a teaspoon of calcium 
chloride to keep the enzymes healthy, happy, and wise.  The exception to 
this rule is a tablespoon of gypsum (CaSO4) per five gallons of IPA, but 
only if the IPA is made with Kent Goldings hops.  There is something 
pretty magical about a small amount of sulfate in beer brewed with Kent 
Goldings.  Kinda like chocolate and stout and cherries.  The ingredients 
just work.  I think sulfate water and Cascade hops make a less pleasant 
combination, but that's solely my taste buds.  There are other styles 
where certain minerals are part of the profile, but the choice is yours 
whether to brew exactly to style or brew close to style.  For example, I 
don't think the sulfate in a Dortmund adds much at all--again...that's 
just me.

That being said, brewing with softened or distilled/deionized water is 
not advisable.  Softened water often has excessive sodium levels which 
can (though not always) make the beer taste unpleasant.  Dist/DI water 
has no minerals to speak of, which is also a problem.  The enzymes 
active in all-grain brewing require some minerals (esp. calcium).  If 
you have uber-hard water, a good solution is to blend your water 1:10 
with a soft (but not softened) water source.  If you're an extract 
brewer, use whatever water comes out of your tap provided it doesn't 
reek of chlorine.  It's all good.

Thought this might help people.  For the most part, I think there are a 
lot of other things you can do in homebrewing to improve your beer 
before jumping into the water chemistry.  A good rule of thumb is to 
brew with the softest water you can use.  Sometimes the best effect 
water can have is no effect at all.  

Cheers!
Marc

P.S.  Apologies for being long-winded.  My morning coffee kicked in.

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:57:52 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Rack and add water?

Mark Baich, aka "Mark BitzMart" <mark at bitzmart.com> of Buffalo Grove, 
IL writes about his latest brew:

>target OG was 1.042-1.046 and mine was 1.056.
>Looking back over my notes and calculating how much water I used, I
>am guessing that rather than having a full 5g of water in my plastic
>fermentor I have approx 4.0g to 4.5g, and that may at least
>partially explain the difference.

A surprisingly common mistake among beginning brewers is to take a 
hydrometer sample from wort that is not well mixed.  If you didn't 
add any water after boiling (aside from the squirting chiller), then 
this is probably not your problem.  It is always nice to mark off 
your fermenter with one gallon lines so you know how much wort you 
have.

>Fermentation is hard at work (Wyeast 1272), but only after I helped
>warm the bucket with a heating pad and wrapped a blanket around it.
>I don't want to disturb it at this point.

I hope you aren't heating it very much.  Mid to upper 60's F (19-20C) 
is where I like to ferment most ales.  Much over 70-72F and you are 
likely to start getting esters and fusel oils (higher alcohols). 
There really isn't any danger in disturbing your beer.  It's hardy, 
and fermentations are fun to watch.

>My question is: in a few days should I rack the wort into my glass
>carboy for a secondary fermentation, and can I add boiled, cooled
>water at that point to top off to 5g?  I don't want to end up with
>overly sweet beer.  The target FG is 1.010-1.014.

In general I think it's best to add water at the beginning of 
fermentation or at least before it's done fermenting.  Higher gravity 
ferments produce more esters (especially at higher temperatures). 
Besides, there is always the danger of introducing oxygen to the 
finished beer when you top off, but the yeast in fermenting beer will 
pretty much sop it up. Unless you are adding it early in the 
fermentation, do be sure that you've boiled the water, not just for 
sanitation, but more importantly, to drive off dissolved oxygen. 
Then try not to splash or otherwise aerate the water or beer.

Hope this helps.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:10:11 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: hops...different with corn?

From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu, who is constantly asking probing 
questions (some people just brew, but he wants to know why), writes:

>I have been experimenting with brewers corn/ flaked corn in several
>different brews, and wonder:  I usually try to balance the malt with the
>hops, ie if there is more malt, I'll generally up the hop count as
>well...but if one uses corn,does the "effect" of the hops remain about the
>same?..., or another way of asking is whether a larger amount of corn may
>enhance or show the hops more than an equal amount of grain?,...or does
>this make any sense at all?

I think that since corn (and other adjuncts) are pretty neutral in 
flavor, that the hops show up more.  I like this in a pilsner, but 
certainly one with 25% fermentables from corn (like my CAPs) will be 
less malty than one with 100% malt, and will need less hops to have 
the same balance.  One of the things I like about CAP is the clean, 
hoppiness I get combined with the drinkability of a less satiating 
beer (German-American brewers of a century ago called a beer that was 
satiating "vollmundkeit," roughly translatable as full-mouth-ness).

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 08:27:27 -0700
From: "Mike Racette" <mike.racette at hydro-gardens.com>
Subject: Subject: Gott Cooler Mashing - Capacity/Efficiency/Strike Temps

Mike Rogers states:
"One additional note.  I use a Phils false bottom with a mash pad.  I
literally do not have to take more than a half a cup of wort from the mash
to ensure a clear run off."

Mike, what is a mash pad and why does it make the run-off clear faster?




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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:16:32 -0500
From: william.m.menzl at dowcorning.com
Subject: Kegging/Bottling Basics

Well, I have started down the road to kegging and hope some may help me with
my questions.  I have one beer kegged and soon expect to keg a couple of
batches that are in process.  Any and all suggestions/information is greatly
appreciated!

*  Do you have to refrigerate kegged beer after carbonating (either force or
primed) or can you store it at room temp until you have time/room to cool it
down?
*  Will the beer go bad if you cool it and dispense for a period of time,
then pull it out and leave it a room temp for a while.
*  How long can kegged beer be kept?  Does it matter if it is warm or cold?
*  Are there any good websites that describe any of the above?  (I have
found a few and used them for balancing my system but they haven't touched a
lot on storage/times etc.)
*  I am thinking of lagering in a corney keg to free up some room in the keg
fridge.  Any good tips?
*  One last curiosity question: Kegman (http://www.kegman.net) recommends 12
psi as minimum and 19 psi as a maximum pressure and temperature from 32-42
degrees F for kegs.  I have seen other sites list similar recommendations.
The "Guideline for degrees of carbonation at various beer temperatures" from
Brewing Techniques show a range of 2.39 to 3.27 volumes of CO2 for the
pressures and temperatures recommended by Kegman.  How do you dispense
kegged beer at other volumes of CO2 (as appropriate for many other styles)
and stay within the temperatures and pressures recommended?  I am not there
yet but it appears that I must be missing some basic knowledge when I study
it.

I read with interest the posts around air in the racking cane when bottling.
I use a bottling bucket with a spigot.  I have about a 6" tube that I have
attached to the spigot for filling from the bottom of the bottle up.  My
spigot is designed that once the valve is turned to the off position, air is
vented in at the top of the spigot and whatever fluid is in the line is
vented and flows into the bottle.  Therefore, there 6 " line is empty of
fluid and full of air for each bottle.  I haven't noticed any ill effects
but my pallet is not educated real well for oxidation yet and my beer
doesn't sit around for long before it is gone.  Anyone have a similar setup?
Am I opening myself up for problems?

Thanks again!

William Menzl
Midland, Michigan [99.8, 344.8] Apparent Rennerian

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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 07:41:32 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Ideal Conditions for a Yeast Starter

Kevin White <kwhite at bcpl.net>
>
>Instead of casting a starter into a larger wort volume for more
>growth, is there anything wrong with flocculating the yeast by
>refrigeration, decanting, warming, and then mixing with another
>volume of fresh oxygenated wort in the same container?

I don't know about "ideal", and would hesitate to use "ideal" yeast growing
conditions for a beer starter.  

My suggestion is to use an OG close to the one you are going to brew,
forget the hops, do the starter in one big cycle (no step up), and be
absolutely compulsive about sanitation.  As many here know, I am a yeast
abuser.  I believe that yeast are hardy buggers, and let my starters floc
(refrigerated), cake, then decant, and pitch only the cake.  I also aerate
my starters.  For a more complete write up see
http://www.primetab.com/general.html

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:11:26 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: Horehound Beer

Noel,

There's a book called "Sacred Herbal and Healing
Beers" by Steven Buhner.  Don't be put off by the
title, it's a great book with lots of info on
all kinds of plants.  It describes the plant,
which parts of it to use, what medicinal effects
if any it has on the body, and in just about
every case it gives recipes.

I'm 99% sure I saw Horehound in there.

Bill





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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:08:58 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Altbier water profile

Petr Otahal <potahal at utas.edu.au> writes from way down under in 
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

>I am planning to do a Duesseldorfer style Altbier on the weekend.  I have
>read through the archives and my recipe is inspired by Al Korzonas' recipe
>posted in HBD #2827 (except I will need to substitute some of the Munich
>malt for Vienna as I dont have enough).
>
>The one thing I cant seem to find in the archives is the appropriate water
>profile for a Duesseldorfer Altbier.  I have very soft, neutral water, low
>in total dissolved solids, and typically use just a little Calcium Chloride
>to boost the Ca level when brewing Pilsners or light lagers. 
>
>Can I assume that Altbier would require a similar water profile to a pilsner?

No, due to the acidity of the dark malts, you can use some alkalinity 
here.  As a matter of fact, it is due to the alkalinity of Dusseldorf 
water that dark beer is indigenous to Dusseldorf, as with other 
famous dark beer areas such as London (porter), Dublin (stout) and 
Munich (Munchener dunkel).  However, Dusseldorf water is only 
somewhat alkaline (60 ppm CaCO3, see below) compared to these other 
cities.

This was badly screwed up by Horst Dornbusch in his Classic Beer 
Series book "Altbeer" a few years ago and for which I took him to 
task here in HBD (see archives).  He confessed to being weak on water 
chemistry, but I can't understand how this slipped by the editors. 
(Now that Ray Daniels is editor for the AoB's Brewers Publications, 
this shouldn't happen again).

Now, whether or not you actually need to add some alkalinity is 
another question.  Your mash pH should tell you.  You wouldn't need 
to add much.

>Do I want any sulphates in there to give the Altbier a longer finish to the
>bitterness?

Dusseldorf water has (according to AJ) ~80 ppm sulfate, so a little 
probably wouldn't be out of place.  However, the few Alts I've had 
were very smoothly bitter, so keep it low.  I suspect you could leave 
it out entirely.

The HBD resident water chemist, AJ DeLange (whom I've cc'd), wrote a 
series on fabricating famous brewing waters some years ago.  You can 
find his excellent posts at 
http://hubris.engin.umich.edu:80/Beer/Threads/Threads/thread.1037115247.html

Here is his target for Dusseldorf water, which he describes how to 
hit with acid, salt and CO2 additions.

Dusseldorf
ION
Ca	40
Mg	0
Na	25
K	0
CO3	60
SO4	80
Cl	45.000

AJ pointed out that this was in part an intellectual exercise that is 
not necessary to actually brew beers to style.  For one thing, 
brewers often modify their water (Dortmunder is an example, as is 
Munich for Helles).  My own guess is that if you used CaCl2, CaSO4 
(gypsum) and NaHCO3 (sodium bicarbonate) in your water to get the 
major ions in the ballpark, you'd do fine.  A little extra Ca++ won't 
hurt, but I'd try not to exceed the others.


Jeff

- ---------

PS - For those of you who don't know, there was an interesting bit in 
the news this morning that made me think of Petr (see 
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/11/11/cuba.defection/index.html ). 
It seems that  a professional pilot in Cuba "appropriated" a 
cropduster/commuter biplane and flew it with seven others including 
one child to Key West, where they are expected to be given asylum.

Now I don't think it is letting any secrets out to tell you all that 
twenty-some years ago, when Petr was a little boy, his father, a crop 
duster pilot in Czechoslovakia, similarly appropriated a smaller crop 
duster (no cabin, only a cockpit) and stuffed his wife and child 
(Petr) and maybe a suitcase into the cockpit and daringly flew over 
the border at treetops to freedom in Austria (or was it Germany?).  I 
remember the news stories at the time.

I wonder if any future homebrewers were in the flight to Key West?

 -J
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:32:55 -0500
From: "Smith, Brian (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51 at ICCNET.COM>
Subject: RE: experiments with corn....

Listers,  Jeff R.,

Well, as you may recall I purchased some fresh milled corn meal about a
month ago with the thoughts of using it as an adjunct.  I finally got around
to doing it this weekend.  Of course my instructions were at work and not at
home where they could help me.  But when the fever strikes there is no
stopping it.  My plan was to use the corn meal in my annual Christmas beer
("Festive Spawn" long story about the name).  Not being an all grainer, this
was to be a partial mash with extract.  I used 1.5 lbs. of 60 lov. crystal,
 .75 lbs. of munich and .5 lbs. of the corn meal.  Now, from memory of Jeff's
instructions, I took about 30% of the malt and mixed it with the corn meal
and cooked it like a polenta.  I mixed it with enough water to make a thin
mixture and cooked it until it was fairly thick. ( like a medium thick
oatmeal).  In another pot I mixed my grains with water and got the temp
about 140 F.  To this I added the corn mess, and put the whole thing it an
oven set at about 160.  This I left for several hours.  Using the B3
mini-mass set up I Then sparged the mixture until the sparge water ran
pretty much clear.  I ended up with about 2.75 gals of wort.  I put this in
my boiling pot and brought the volume up to 6.5 gals.  I brought this to a
boil and added 5 lbs. of light malt extract.  I used 3 ounces of Halluter
and .75 ounces of cascade pellets for bittering and 2 handfuls of homegrown
cascade as aroma.  Since this is a Christmas Ale I also added some fresh
grated ginger, zest from 2 oranges and one Louisiana Satsuma, some cinnamon
and some cardamom.  I'm using a Wyeast American Ale yeast XL pack.
Unfortunately the made on date was Nov. 2001 so I hope it's still good.  I
have kept it refrigerated since I bought it and the pack was showing signs
of swelling when I pitched it.  Now all I have to do is wait.  I will keep
you posted.

p.s., I know my technique (or lack of one) has all you all-grainers' hair
standing on end.

Brian Smith
Big Ring Brewery
Bogalusa, LA




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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:13:10 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: refrigerator tubing as wort chiller?

Drew Shelton <drew at homebrew.com> asks about refrigerator tubing...

Refrigeration tubing is the same as regular soft copper tubing of the same 
dimensions, but it is cleaned and dehydrated on the inside.  It's sold with 
caps to keep it that way.  This is the case whether it's ACR in straight 
lengths or soft copper in coils.  So, it's fine for use in home brewing.  
Non-refrigeration tubing might not be clean, and have some oils on it.   But 
if you're buying the coiled type, I'd bet that most places sell the 
clean/dry stuff anyway, no matter which you ask for.  I have bought non-ACR 
copper pipe, and found it to be dirty and oily--so I always specify ACR 
(which I _think_ means Air Conditioning and Refrigeration).

The only odd thing about it is that at a commmercial supply house, if you 
ask for, say, 1 inch copper pipe, you're a plumber--and you get 1 1/8 inch 
OD copper pipe/tube.  If you ask for 1 1/8 inch copper tubing, you get the 
same pipe/tube, but now you're a refrigeration tech.

I was told some time back that the main difference between the copper pipe 
and copper tubing this particular supply house sold was in how you asked for 
it, which depended on which industry you were in!  It was all the same Type 
M or L copper.

Regards,
Mike Sharp



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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:34:56 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: what happened?

Axel maker asked about his/her(?) attenuation:

>Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:43:25 -0500
>From: "Axle Maker" <axlemaker at mindspring.com>
>Subject: What Happened ?
 

>1st batch was an IPA, I used Northwestern Extract and specialty grains, it
>was fermented with Calif. Ale yeast (WLP001).
 
>Then it spent another 2 week's dry hopped in the secondary.
>The O.G. was 10.58, and the F.G. was 10.12, the beer came out fine.
 
>The second batch was a Smoked Porter, once again it was made with
>Northwestern Extract and specialty grains.

>This was pitched on top of the cake from the IPA (the primary cake), it took
>off in 2 hours.
>5 day's later it went from a 10.70 to a 10.20, I bottled at 4 week's, it was
>still no lower than 10.20, a little under
>attenuated but didn't taste that bad.
 
>Well I tried one this weekend only to find it to be completely flat.
>WHAT HAPPENED ?

Is it possible that the alcohol level has reached the tolerance level
for the yeast?  I looked at the wyeast web site, and can find attenuation
figures, but not alcohol tolerance.
The first beer 1.058 --> 1.012 79% attenuation
Second beer    1.070 --> 1.020 71% 

The white labs site http://www.whitelabs.com/ratings.asp?id=WLP001
says 73-80%.

If it had quit fermenting, but fermented the priming surgar, I would
pick on the unfermentables in the second beer.  

I had a scottish strong that did not carbonate.  I reopened all of the
bottles and added a few grains of dry yeast to each bottle and recapped.
It did carbonate.  My theory was the alcohol content of the beer caused
the problem.




=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:17:09 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: sodium hypochlorite?


I am attempting to determine the feasibility of using local town water for 
brewing,...and I think that I can either filter or pre-boil to remove 
chlorine.  Is this the same for sodium hypochloride(/ite?).  I am yet to 
receive the water analysis from our town, but one of the engineers told me that 
this was "the same as chlorine" and that this was what they added. 

I note that John Palmer (in How to Brew) states that chloramine is not removed 
by boiling, and I wonder what may be the case for sodium hypochloride?

 ...Darrell
trying to learn a little more about a dimension of brewing that I have somewhat 
avoided...hardness, bicarbonates, and all that jazz...



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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:38:12 -0500
From: Himsbrew at aol.com
Subject: starter question

what is the right amount of dry extract/water to use
for a normal starter?
thought I remember hearing 1 cup extract to 1 quart?
does that sound right?
jim cuny
green bay wi


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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:41:39 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: "Why Life's a Bleach" (more on Sodium Hypochlorite)

If anyone is interested: in searching around for sodium hypochlorite I found 
the following brief article ( at  http://www.esemag.com/0596/bleach.html )
entitled "Why Life's a Bleach: The Sodium Hypochlorite Story" by a couple of 
scientists at Colgate-Palmolive...
  
Still don't know, but think that I must be able to boil it away...?

 ..Darrell



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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:49:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: From whence doth "tripel" derive?

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

I was recently accosted by a garbage picker regarding the source
of the word "tripel" when describing the Belgian style of the
same name. Now, I admit not to being a genius, nor an
all-knowing sage on things beerie, but I have always believed
the name to refer to the beer's strength, as a progression from
dubbel. The item this person plucked from the garbage stated
that the term derives from "... the three grains - barley,
wheat, oats - used to brew it."

I have never noticed "... the three grains - barley, wheat, oats
 ..." in any recipe for Tripel I've ever reviewed. Usually, there
is a base malt, a symphony of specialty malts - typically
something in the crystal and/or cara-whatever family - and some
kind of (but we hope it's candi) sugar.

However, I ain't the sharpest stick in the bundle. Nope not
neither. So which is it? Is tripel in reference to the strength
of the beer, or to it's grain bill?

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:37:16 -0600
From: "Fred Scheer" <FHopheads at msn.com>
Subject: HBD # 4091 Bottle conditioning

When bottle conditioning my 3L bottles,
I use ~ 1/2 cup of corn sugar for bottle conditioning.

My HBD #4091 only went to the posting :Subject: Gott Cooler Mashing -
Capacity/Efficiency/Strike Temps"
anything wrong with my computer????


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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:04:22 -0500
From: J & B Gallihue <JGallihue at comcast.net>
Subject: Horehound in Beer

Noel asks:
"Does anybody have a recipe for horehound beer (alcoholic) or any taste
memories they can give me??"

The book Homebrewers Garden by Joe and Dennis Fisher recommends it as a
bittering hop and has many herb beer recipes.
In The Historical Companion to House-Brewing, La Pensee notes, "The common
German name "Berghopfen" (mountain hops) gives it all away."  He goes on to
say he thinks its too medicinal a flavor for him to use.

Here is my two cents:
Horehound is very bitter.  In fact, Horehound is very, very very bitter.
Experiment with it by preparing teas with it of various strengths and
various boil times.  Add the teas to a samples of cheap beer and see what
proportions match. That way you don't waste a day and a batch of homebrew.
You may wish to then brew a home brew batch that has the specialty grains
you think you may wish to use do the tea experiment with that.  I theorize
you need malt and residual sweetness to balance the bitterness.  I also
doubt you will want the horehound in the boil for very long.

Good luck and have fun.

Joel Gallihue.
Columbia, MD



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---