---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Cheap SS Conical Fermenter (Jim deVries)
  Re: Sanitizing Question,  refrigerator tubing (David Radwin)
  Re: From whence doth "tripel" derive? (Steven S)
  Darrell - Sodium Hypochlorite ("Kevin Boyer")
  Converting the Heathen (Bob Hall)
  Drilling stainless/ mash tun design? (LJ Vitt)
  Re: Cleaning Aeration stone (Demonick)
  Re: Classic American Pilsner Recipe/Report/Ranting (Jeff Renner)
  Bottling a Pilsner ("Peter Beauregard")
  Re: sodium hypochlorite? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: From whence doth "tripel" derive? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: priming (Denny Conn)
  speise and primming rates ("mwagner")
  Re: Classic American Pilsner Recipe/Report/Ranting (Mark Kempisty)
  Tripel/Trippel name origin ("John Misrahi")
  Sodium Hypochlorite (water supply) ("Eric R. Theiner")
  re:Drilling stainless/ mash tun design? (Dave Kerr)
  sanitizing question (Donald and Melissa Hellen)


*
* Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! 
* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*
Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:15:34 -0500
From: Jim deVries <jimdevries at smtp.comcast.net>
Subject: Cheap SS Conical Fermenter

I have been searching for a way to get a SS conical fermenter without breaking 
the checkbook.  
Either I need to find one used and cheap or build it myself.  
Zymico has a kit based on a 12.2 Gal hopper from Toledo Spinning Products.  
Has anyone any experience with this?

Jim deVries

jimdevries at comcast.net





Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:32:51 -0800
From: David Radwin <dradwin at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Sanitizing Question,  refrigerator tubing

Bill Owen wrote:

> When I used this method with our new Kitchenaid dishwasher, that batch had the
> tell tale white ring around the neck, indicating the strong possibility of an
> infection of some sort. In order to check to see if it was the dishwasher
> sanitizing method, on the next batch I did some bottles in the dishwasher and
> some in starsan. Guess what. The dishwasher group developed the white ring,
> but the starsan group did not. Obviously, that method does not work with all
> dishwashers.

Just as a data point, I've never had any such problem with our 
dishwasher (a Bosch). I've used it with and without soap. Our hot water 
temperature is set at 140F, which is supposed to be sufficient to kill 
germs, although I think the dishwasher will heat the water to the 
optimum temperature. Also, it seems the dry cycle gets the bottles very hot.

Drew Shelton wrote:

> i found 50ft of 3/8in "refrigerator tubing" at Home Depot for $20
 ...
> has anyone ever used "refrigerator tubing" to build a wort chiller?

Yes, and it should be the cheapest way to buy 50 feet of tubing.







Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:00:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Re: From whence doth "tripel" derive?


Hrm intresting theory

My understanding of Tripel (Tripple) derives from Pierre Rajotte Belgian
Ale (classic beer style series #6). Its a fantastic book if you like
Belgian Ales.


(page 32)
The style originated at the Trappist abbey of Westmalle. It is pale in
color, usually made with only pale, Pils-type malt and a judicious
addition (up to about 25 percent of total extract) of either glucose or
candi sugar in the brew kettle.

(note no mention here of 3 grains.)

(continued from page 32)
There are two schools of thought regarding the origin of the style. Some,
like myself, are of the opinion that a Tripple represents a beer with
three times the extract value of what historically was known as the
simple. The simple had a starting gravity of around 1.030 to 1.035 (7.5 to
8.8 Plato), the double has 1.060 to 1.070 (15 to 17.5 Plato) and logically
a beer that has a starting gravity of 1.070 to 1.095 (17.5 to 24 Plato)
should be called a Tripple. This fits the age-old brewing tradition.
The other school of thought says a Tripple is so named because it has had
three fermentations. The first one is the primary fermentation, the second
if the secondary fermentation or aging, and, finally, the third is
bottle-conditioning.

<end of quotes>




> From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
> Subject: From whence doth "tripel" derive?
>
> Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
>
>I was recently accosted by a garbage picker regarding the source
>of the word "tripel" when describing the Belgian style of the
>same name. Now, I admit not to being a genius, nor an
>all-knowing sage on things beerie, but I have always believed
>the name to refer to the beer's strength, as a progression from
>dubbel. The item this person plucked from the garbage stated
>that the term derives from "... the three grains - barley,
>wheat, oats - used to brew it."
>
>I have never noticed "... the three grains - barley, wheat, oats
> ..." in any recipe for Tripel I've ever reviewed. Usually, there
>is a base malt, a symphony of specialty malts - typically
>something in the crystal and/or cara-whatever family - and some
>kind of (but we hope it's candi) sugar.
>
>However, I ain't the sharpest stick in the bundle. Nope not
>neither. So which is it? Is tripel in reference to the strength
>of the beer, or to it's grain bill?




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 05:49:20 -0600
From: "Kevin Boyer" <kboyer at houston.rr.com>
Subject: Darrell - Sodium Hypochlorite

Darrell asks whether boiling will remove sodium hypochlorite.

Sodium Hypochlorite is simply bleach.  Just like you buy at the grocery
store except it is likely a 10-12% solution as opposed the  roughly 5% you
use at home.

Bleach and any other type of chlorine like gas, calcium hypochlorite, etc.
added to water for sanitation purposes forms HOCL (hypochlorous acid) and
OCL-(hypochlorite ion).  The HOCL is what is measured as "Chlorine" in PPM
or mg/l with your test kit and what actually does the sanitizing.  Doesn't
really matter what type of packaged chlorine product is used to introduce
the HOCL, it's all the same by the time it gets to you.

It can be removed by boiling for brewing purposes.

Kevin Boyer
Houston, TX



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:10:41 -0500
From: Bob Hall <rallenhall at toast.net>
Subject: Converting the Heathen

William Menzl writes about introducing others to his great CAP:

"The real test comes this weekend at deer camp when I put it up against the 
swill the other guys drink. I sure hope they don't like anything but water 
flavor as I want to keep it all to myself!"

Bill, over the years I've tried to convert the brotherhood during the 
annual backwoods bonding, and would guess that your wish may come true. 
I've packed a variety of pale ales and lagers, but the Lite crowd lables 
anything with color and flavour as a "strong" beer. Last year in an attempt 
to compete, I took only cold-conditioned kolsch, my wife's favorite and a 
ringer for what we sampled in Koln last May. One evening I poured glasses 
around the table, and after the first sip there was polite silence and 
reflection .... then finally one honest fellow muttered "Ugh, this is like 
drinking Wheaties." I had the rest to myself.

Bob Hall
Napoleon, OH




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 06:10:35 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Drilling stainless/ mash tun design?


Parker Dutro is planning to make a stainless lauter tun.
He asked for ideas for the spigot.

This is from an add in the latest zymurgy:  Weld-B-Gone 
http://www.zymico.com  The ad to see the web site for a
list of retailers.

- ----------------

William Menzl asked some keg questions:

>*  Do you have to refrigerate kegged beer after carbonating (either force or
>primed) or can you store it at room temp until you have time/room to cool it
>down?
You can store it at room temp.

>*  Will the beer go bad if you cool it and dispense for a period of time,
>then pull it out and leave it a room temp for a while.

It will be OK to let it warm up.

>*  How long can kegged beer be kept?  Does it matter if it is warm or cold?
>*  Are there any good websites that describe any of the above?  (I have
>found a few and used them for balancing my system but they haven't touched a
>lot on storage/times etc.)

Stable temps are best, and cold is good.  The beer style will have a lot to
do with how long you can keep it.  Something light like a bitter is just a
few months for me.  Stong things could be a couple of years.  The more time
you warm up and cool down beer will shorted the life.  But it doesn't go 
bad immediately.

This applies to bottled beer as well as kegged.

>*  I am thinking of lagering in a corney keg to free up some room in the keg
>fridge.  Any good tips?

I regularily lager in corny kegs.  The primary advantage is it takes a smaller
footprint than carboys.  They are narrower and taller than carboys.
I do not use an airlock.  I let a little pressure build.  The fermentation
appears to be completely done before I rack into the keg.
There will be a little sediment.  I have usually bottled after lagering.
If you want to keg, I suggest racking to a different keg.


=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:11:47 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Cleaning Aeration stone

>I am looking for advice on cleaning my aeration stone.

Soak it in weak bleach, then rinse well.  Before use sanitize with
iodophor, shake out the excess, and don't worry about the few drops
that remain.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:19:00 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Classic American Pilsner Recipe/Report/Ranting

William Menzl <william.m.menzl at dowcorning.com> Midland, Michigan 
posted his enthusiastic report on his CAP.

Thanks for posting the rant and spreading the gospel.

Since you primed your keg, here is a suggestion for getting 
sediment-free beer to deer camp.  I like to pressure rack to a purged 
clean keg.  To do this, fill a sanitized keg with water, then push 
the water out with CO2.  You now have a sanitized pressurized empty 
keg.

Draw a glass or two of beer until it flows clear.  Drink it.  Then 
connect the beer-out from the full keg to the beer-out of the empty 
one with a jumper hose, making sure there is slightly more pressure 
in the full one (so you don't get back flow which would disturb the 
sediment still on the bottom away from the draw tube), and put CO2 on 
the full keg.

Now intermittently open the pressure relief valve of the receiving 
keg (or depress the gas in fitting if there isn't a relief valve) and 
let the beer flow at a moderate rate, controlling by opening and 
closing the relief valve.  As soon as you hear the keg blow (or when 
you see sludge flow in the line), disconnect the hose.

Voila, a keg of sediment free beer.


And now a moose hunting story for you to tell at deer camp (with 
appropriate letter substitutions to keep corporate filters happy).

It seems that a group of down-easters went moose hunting every year 
in Maine.  Whoever complained about the food immediately became the 
cook.  This one guy had been cook for three years and he was tired of 
being stuck in the kitchen and missing good hunting.  So one morning 
after cleaning up breakfast dishes, when he was out hunting near the 
camp (since he couldn't go far and still make dinner), he came upon a 
steaming pile of moose t*rds.  He ran back to the camp and got a pot 
and put them in.  Then back at the camp, he sliced up some onions and 
carrots and made a moose t*rd pie.  That evening at dinner, the first 
guy to eat a bite spit it out and exclaimed, "This tastes like moose 
$h*t!!! .... But good!"

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:28:58 -0500
From: "Peter Beauregard" <peterb at autoprof.com>
Subject: Bottling a Pilsner

I have a pilsner happily fermenting in my ss conical.  I usually keg my 
beers, but I'd like to bottle this pilsner.  I'm planning on lagering it for 2 
months, but I'm afraid that if I bottle it after 2 months of lagering there 
will not be enough viable yeast to carbonate the beer.  Should I just 
prime and bottle as usual after two months of lagering, or should I 
bottle it and let it age for 2 months in the bottle?  

Peter Beauregard
Portsmouth, NH


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:32:09 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: sodium hypochlorite?

darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu is puzzled by sodium hypochlorite. 
This is simply what your water department is adding to get free 
chlorine.  It will dissipate by letting the water stand or by 
boiling.  If they add chloramine (actually, I think they get this by 
adding free chlorine and NH3OH, ammonia), you can't boil it out.  AJ 
DeLange's suggestion of a Campden tablet per 20 gallons seems best 
for this.  A carbon filter should also work.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:34:43 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: From whence doth "tripel" derive?

Fearless janitor Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org> asks:

>Is tripel in reference to the strength of the beer, or to it's grain bill?

Surely the former, as you surmise.  If pressed I could document this 
from my library (Jackson or Rajotte).

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:14:22 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Re: priming

Do I take it from this that you're planning on using candi sugar for 
priming?  If so, my advice would be don't waste your money.  There's so 
little priming sugar there that it couldn't possibly effect the taste of 
your beer.  Just stick with good ol' corn sugar!  For carbonating a 
Belgian, I like 5 oz. or so.

         --------------->Denny

At 12:30 AM 11/13/02 -0500, you wrote:


>Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:14:39 -0500
>From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: priming
>
>
>     Speaking of priming, I was wondering how fermentable is Belgian candy
>sugar? I was thinking 100% but I wanted to make sure. The reason of course
>is simple I don't want my hard work to become flat or explosive.
>     I was thinking 4 oz or 1/4 lb to 5 oz as I like my Belgian ales to be
>well carbonated. Almost like a weizen.
>     Thanks in advance..............gregman




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:16:23 -0300
From: "mwagner" <mwagner at alean.com.ar>
Subject: speise and primming rates

From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Speise and priming rates

Marc Sedam responded to Mauricio's questions regarding speise:

> The difference in carbonation between two quarts of 1.040 priming wort
> and 1.060 priming wort is barely noticeable.  I know I couldn't tell the
> difference between a beer with 1.7vol/CO2 and one with 2.0vol/CO2.
 ............
 ...........
>If one knows the fermentability of the wort being added to carbonate, one
>should be able to know quite accurately the level of carbonation that will
>be added by the addition.

Mauricio said
You can take a sample of the wort you will use and pitching enough yeast (the
one you will use later in your main batch) you can get a full fermentation in
a couple of hours. From this test you can get the real attenuation or
fermentability and you get the amoun of fermentable sugars you have in your
wort.

>What is harder to know is how much CO2 is in the
>beer after the addition.  All of this, of course, also applies to priming
>with dextrose or anything else for that matter.

Mauricio said
I really don't understand this last part. If I can calculate the amount of
fermentable sugar I have in one liter of wort, is not difficult to know how
many liters CO2 I'll produce with a given amount of wort.

Best Regards,

Mauricio







Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:11:59 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Re: Classic American Pilsner Recipe/Report/Ranting

William Menzl writes:

"I just started kegging and this is going to be on tap at all times.  It
is
that good!"

Has to be the caterpillar, just has to be!  Did you note the exact genus

and species?  In those great breweries of yesteryear, more than a few
caterpillars and other critters probably added some flavor.

Many years ago at my old job I overheard two guys talking in the lunch
room, "My cousin is in Air Force ROTC and he went to Field Training and
they made him eat a bug.  Why the heck did they make him do that?"
I raised my hand and said "Been there, done that and got the T-shirt."
They got a very good quick lesson in survival training and food
aversions.

Anybody want to try the grasshopper ale I made?

- --
Take care,
Mark






Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:19:38 -0500
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: Tripel/Trippel name origin

Hi List denizens ,

Pat Babcock was pondering the origin of the word 'Tripel'. As far as i know,
it has nothing to do with the ingredients. I've seen quite a few Tripels
made solely with pilsner malt and candi sugar, though as mentioned,
specialty grains of the crystal variety etc.. can be used.

>From what i understand, (I read something about it somewhere, but the source
escapes me at the moment), it comes from the parti-gyle brewing that brewers
in Belgium would do. They would mash a whack-load of grain, sparge and use
the first runnings for a tripel, second runnings for a dubbel, and third
runnings for a fairly weak beer, the single. (i dont think this is really
brewed nowadays but i could be wrong).

By the way, this is a great technique for brewing 2 beers from one mash, and
you can add specialty grains etc.. to make a darker beer for the second
which will of course, be of a local gravity. There was an interesting
article on the topic in BYO magazine a while back, written by Drew Avis. I
have become a definite enthusiast of this technique, which gives me more
variety from my limited brewing time.

John Misrahi
Montreal, Canada


Pothole?  Thats luxury!  I have to ferment directly in my mouth.  On brew
day I fill up my mouth with wort in the am and drop a few yeast cells in and
3 hours later I swallow.  Wish I had a pothole to ferment in. -Mike Brennan
on the HBD

"Ah, Billy Beer... we elected the wrong Carter." -Homer Simpson




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:36:59 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude02 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Sodium Hypochlorite (water supply)

When the city says that their water is chlorinated, they generally mean 
that it has sodium hypochlorite in it.  It is true that a number of places 
have gone to chloramines, but they will generally tell you that the water 
is "chloraminated" (which I did not know was a word).

In a nutshell, the difference (to the municipalities) is that chloramines 
are much more stable-- which means to us that it is harder to get out, as 
Darrell pointed out in the last digest.

I am 99.9% certain that chloramines and sodium hypochlorite are the only 
chlorine compounds added to municipal water supplies.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:47:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Dave Kerr <dave_kerr2001 at yahoo.com>
Subject: re:Drilling stainless/ mash tun design?

Parker asked about converted keg mash/lauter tuns:

I've used an EZMasher 2 for about 40 batches now with
no complaints - just had to clean out the spigot a
couple of times.  Drill a hole and hook it up - about
15 minutes, tops.  

The converted keg is a great way to go, allowing you
direct-fire temp boosts.  Do allow for the added
thermal mass of your keg when calculatig your strike
temp.

Dave Kerr
Needham, MA



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:56:13 -0500
From: Donald and Melissa Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net>
Subject: sanitizing question

James Payne wrote:

I've been told that running my bottles and brewing equipment (at least
the stuff that won't melt) through the dishwasher is an effective
means of sanitizing everything without having to stand for hours
at the sink rinsing everything in B-Brite.  Is this accurate?  I've
emailed 3 different people regarding this question and have received 3
different answers.  I'm hoping to at least get a consensus reply from
the readers of HBD.  Thanks!!!!!
 ...............................................
James,

There are more than a few methods of sanitizing your equipment and
bottles. Here's what I do, and a short discussion on what you might do
yourself. I'm assuming that your bottles and equipment are relatively
clean. Otherwise, use a cleaner like TSP or a combination
cleaner/sanitizer like B-Brite. B-Brite has the advantage of
performing both operations at once. It has a higher price tag, but you
trade price for convenience. 

I use an iodophor sanitizer called BTF. It's not expensive and it
works in only two minutes. I use this to sanitize my fermenters and
other equipment. At the concentrations recommended, it is a no-rinse
sanitizer. If you will be making homebrew for years to come, buy it in
a gallon quantity. A pint will last you for several brews if you reuse
the solution on the same day or within a week or so. It's safe for
stainless, glass, plastic, almost anything you will use in
homebrewing, but it can stain things if you leave the concentrated
iodine solution in direct contact with a surface for long. This is not
harmful, and a chlorine bleach solution can remove the stain if you
wish in most cases. 

An alternative to this is to use unscented (important!) chlorine
bleach. I used this for over ten years. Wait 30 minutes and rinse with
hot water before using.

I store my bottles upside down in their case after use and rinse them
quickly with a jet bottle/carboy washer. You can use a dishwasher on
the sani cycle with no detergent to sanitize the bottles if you wish.
It's a better practice than I use but you are less likely to have
problems form an infection. You can also rinse them with an iodophor
solution or soak them in a chlorine bleach solution (but rinse!). 

Don Hellen



Return to table of contents

---