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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  ss conical (Scott)
  yeast propagation ("Steve Alexander")
  origin of Tripel (Bjoern.Thegeby)
  Re: Cleaning Aeration stone ("Dennis Collins")
  Converting the Heathen ("Dan Listermann")
  SS Conical Project Update ("Christian Rausch")
  From whence doth "tripel" derive? (Wade Hutchison)
  bottling aged barley wine.... ("Berggren, Stefan")
  Re: Bottling a Pilsner (Jeff Renner)
  Cleaning  Aeration stone ("Reuben Filsell")
  Decade old lagers (Jeff Renner)
  Re: From whence doth "tripel" derive? (Bill Wible)
  Re: Sodium Hypochlorite (water supply) ("Mike Sharp")
  first all grain and keg ("Byron's Yahoo Account")
  Bottle conditioning a lager (LJ Vitt)
  hypochlorite (AJ)
  Sodium Hypochlorite (James Keller)
  Re: Bottling pilsner (Kevin Crouch)
  SWIG Method (Rama Roberts)
  Cider definitions & recommendations ("Rod McBride")
  Tripel (Nathan Kanous)


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Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:14:01 -0800
From: Scott <sejose at pacbell.net>
Subject: ss conical

I too, am looking for a way to build a 12.2  conical in an economical way.
Here is a copy of the email toledometalspinning sent me when I queried them
about pricing:

Charges are as follows:

TMS16914       = $ 87.00 (this is the 12.2 hopper)
TMSL1616       = $ 44.00 (this is the standard lid)
Fab & Weld Handle = $ 35.00 ($10 ea + $25 setup)
Shipping (FedEx Ground) = $ 21.31 (to Northern California)

Total: $ 187.31

To fab and weld bottom dump valve:  Our hoppers are 1 pieces construction
with a solid bottom.
To cutout bottom/drill         = $30 ($5  ea + $25 setup)
Weld customer supplied fitting = $80 ($30 ea + $50 setup)

We do not have a standard dump valve, so I would need to see a print or
sketch of what you would require before I can provide a quote to fabricate
this part.

Make out check or money order to: Toledo Metal Spinning Company
And send to:

Toledo Metal Spinning Company
1819 Clinton Street
Toledo, Ohio 43607
Attn: Dan Spoerl

We have the item in stock and can ship within 1-2 weeks after we receive
payment.  Please include this letter with your payment as well as the ship
to address.   Thank you for your inquiry and let me know if we can be of any
other service.

Sincerely,
Daniel C. Spoerl
Estimator/MIS Manager
Toledo Metal Spinning Co.
Phone: (419) 535-5931 ext. 203
Fax:    (419) 535-0565
Personal E-fax: (707) 897-1708
Email:    dans at toledometalspinning.com <mailto:dans at toledometalspinning.com>
WebSite: http://www.toledometalspinning.com
<http://www.toledometalspinning.com/>
<http://www.toledometalspinning.com/products_configurator.htm>

Consider that you will have to come up with a seal for the lid, another $50
for the Zymico bottom dump and $100 for their racking port, and I don't know
how much for their stand kit, it looks like it really starts to add up.

Now go here:
www.stpats.com
and scroll to new products-beer, click on Cylindroconical Fermenters, and
see what you think.

Also go here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1787174895&rd=1

Also www.northernbrewer.com and www.williamsbrewing.com sell the fermenator.

See what you think.

I have good mechanical skills, but a welder I am not.

So I have decided to sell one of my motorcycles to finance this fermenter!

Just my own conclusions, as usual, draw your own.

Good Brewing!

Scott Jose






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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:18:22 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: yeast propagation

Kevin White says

> What are the ideal SG and temperature (and any other critical
> conditions) for propagating a typical ale yeast in a starter?

I have to say that I'm mostly in agreement with Dom Venezia when he writes
 ....

>I don't know about "ideal", and would hesitate to use "ideal" yeast growing
>conditions for a beer starter.


Right - high temps speed the growth by a few days but a little advanced
planning solves this problem and avoids another (below) and requires less
effort.

Dom continues ...
>My suggestion is to use an OG close to the one you are going to brew,
>forget the hops, do the starter in one big cycle (no step up), and be
>absolutely compulsive about sanitation.

I'd keep the OG below 12P since the yeast resulting from hi-grav starters
can perform very poorly.    Growing yeast in a15P starter likely won't ruin
your beer - but don't come whining later when you have poor attenuation or a
stuck fermentation.

Hops are not necessary for starters, but they do really stop most gram
positive bacteria.  If you are building a 2L ale starter from a smack-pack
there is no need for step-up.  If you are building a 2L starter from a slant
I would absolutely use step-ups.  The yeast need to be able to out-compete
and dominate he fermentation in short order.   If they haven't depleted the
oxygen in a few hours and knocked off the monosachharides and dropped the pH
in a day then you are opening the door to competing infections.

- ----

Anyway if you must optimize yeast production the fastest propagation temp
for ale yeast is around (101F),  for lager yeast it's around 91F [BY&F pp
182] .  Of course if you propagate at these very high temps the wort/beer
will have a lot of funky flavors so do decant as Kevin & Dom describe.  High
temp grown yeasts will also be very low in unsaturated fatty acids(UFAs) and
may have problems with cold shock, alcohol and osmotic stress intolerance
and may form more ester and fusel by-products.   You can propagate your
yeasts a 90+F, but do regrow into well aerated *cold* wort.

Other things to consider in *optimal* yeast propagation are avoiding the
Crabtree effect ... when there are enough simple monosaccharides available
in wort (around 0.4P or above) yeast will fail to form fully functional
mitochondria have several other defects  and this situation favors
respiratory deficient mutants.   Anyway normal 12P wort has enough glucose
to trigger Crabtree effect so if you are growing yeast on wort it's best to
add to the starter extract at only a couple Plato at a time.   If you can
easily add the extract to the starter in several doses that would be an
improvement, but whether the extra complication & effort is worthwhile is
dubious on the HB scale.

One of the few wort additions that is IMO worthwhile is a little zinc a few
tenths of 1ppm can sometimes make a big difference in yeast growth and
performance.

A different type of propagation involves forcing yeast to respire rather
than ferment for energy - usually on a non-fermentable medium.    This takes
little carbohydrate medium since respiration produces vastly more energy
than fermentation.  Still yeast require a full complement of amino acids,
biotin, pantothenic acids and several dozen more vitamins and minerals.
I've played around with this but since wort for starters is easy to make
these artificial medium methods are more interesting than practical.

Do try high temp growth and other methods for experimentation, it's fun and
you'll learn a lot about yeast behaviour.   For practical propagation  I
grow yeast in  <12P  wort, keep it well aerated, and on a stir plate,
sometimes with a zinc addition.   I also keep it very cold during storage
and don't worry about pitching a 35F slurry into 65F wort - doesn't hurt it
a bit.

 -S




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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:18:54 +0100
From: Bjoern.Thegeby at cec.eu.int
Subject: origin of Tripel

The term tripel goes far back far beyond Westmalle. As people had no concept

of alcohol levels until rather late in history, tripel would have to refer
to fermentable 
material. One bushel, two bushels or three bushels (insert our own ye olde 
measurement here) makes a single, double or triple beer. I know of one song
from 
the 1770's that lists "triple Rostocker beer". I would expect it to be much
earlier.

Westmalle on the other hand only developed a beer for commercial use in the
20's.
When they reintroduced the term tripel, it was probably only a marketing
tool
indicating ancient origins and strength. Sorry for ruining the romance.

Bjorn T


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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:39:36 -0500
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Re: Cleaning Aeration stone

In regard to the aeration stone cleaning thread, Domenick Venezia writes:

"Soak it in weak bleach, then rinse well.  Before use sanitize with
iodophor, shake out the excess, and don't worry about the few drops
that remain."

For stainless steel, I don't think this is a good idea.  Chlorine will
corrode stainless steel(and most everything else).  I'm not sure what the
effect will be on a porous item like the stone, but it probably isn't
desired.  I think boiling is the best bet for cleaning followed by a drying
step either with a compressed air hose, or heated drying in an oven or with
a hair dryer.

The sanitation part is good advice.  Use iodophor or other no-rinse
sanitizer and just shake off the excess before use.  I even run the O2
through the stone for a few seconds to help blow out any liquid that is
still in there.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com

"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but not in practice".





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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:41:55 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Converting the Heathen

 Bob Hall <rallenhall at toast.net> discusses dealing with the unwashed.  I
like the concept of referring to lite beer as "water flavored beer."
"Kinderbier" also appeals to me.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.







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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:00:57 -0500
From: "Christian Rausch" <christian at rauschbiercompany.com>
Subject: SS Conical Project Update

Hello everyone. For those interested I have posted the first information
regarding the conical project I started a few weeks back. It gives some info
on parts and suppliers. There will be updates to it as I move through the
project.

The page can be found here: http://rauschbiercompany.com

It is listed on the projects page.

Cheers!
Christian Rausch





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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:37:37 -0500
From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu>
Subject: From whence doth "tripel" derive?

I would guess that your "garbage picker" read the label on a
bottle of a fine Belgian beer called "Tripel Karmelite," (or
Karmeleit) which is a beer brewed with barley, wheat and oats,
and explains on the lable that's where the "Tripel" in the
name comes from.
see: http://vunet.ifrance.com/pokepeak/images
/Belgique/Tripel_Karmeliet/Tripel_Karmeliet01.jpg
(join the lines for the correct URL)
or http://home.mn.rr.com/artisanal/NewFiles/Bosteels.html
So he's right.
About 1 beer.
(Wrong about 30 or 40 others, of course).
Hope this helps,
         -----wade
         whutchis at bucknell.edu
         Brewing at 41deg 00' N by 76deg 50' W
         597.6 Klicks, 101.5 deg. Rennerian
         Milton, PA 17847

>From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
>Subject: From whence doth "tripel" derive?
>
>Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
>
><snip>
>  The item this person plucked from the garbage stated
>that the term derives from "... the three grains - barley,
>wheat, oats - used to brew it."
>
>I have never noticed "... the three grains - barley, wheat, oats
>  ..." in any recipe for Tripel I've ever reviewed. Usually, there
>is a base malt, a symphony of specialty malts - typically
>something in the crystal and/or cara-whatever family - and some
>kind of (but we hope it's candi) sugar.
>
>However, I ain't the sharpest stick in the bundle. Nope not
>neither. So which is it? Is tripel in reference to the strength
>of the beer, or to it's grain bill?






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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:39:51 -0600
From: "Berggren, Stefan" <stefan_berggren at trekbike.com>
Subject: bottling aged barley wine....

Greetings, 

I have a dilemma on my hands with a barley wine that I have 
been bulk aging in my 2ndary for a month.  I used Whitelabs WLP002
strain, which is an incredibly flocculent strain of yeast.  I am concerned 
that I may not have enough viable yeast to produce carbonation in the 
bottle.  I have the ability to keg the beer, but would rather bottle.  I
thought 
about rousing the yeast a bit, but the yeast is compacted pretty tightly. 
Chris White recommended making a 200ml activator with the 
strain when bottling.  Another buddy of mine suggested adding some 
dry yeast grains to each bottle or adding 1/4 packet of dry yeast to the 
bottling bucket prior to bottling.  Any recommendations as to bottling
 and insuring carbonation would be great.  If anyone has run into this 
problem before, let me know your experiences.

Cheers, 

Stefan Berggren

This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord has intended a
more divine form of consumption. 
Let us give praise to our maker and glory to His bounty by learning about
beer. --Friar Tuck 




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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:01:07 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Bottling a Pilsner

"Peter Beauregard" <peterb at autoprof.com> of Portsmouth, NH asks a FAQ:

>I have a pilsner happily fermenting in my ss conical.  I usually keg my
>beers, but I'd like to bottle this pilsner.  I'm planning on lagering it for 2
>months, but I'm afraid that if I bottle it after 2 months of lagering there
>will not be enough viable yeast to carbonate the beer.  Should I just
>prime and bottle as usual after two months of lagering, or should I
>bottle it and let it age for 2 months in the bottle?

Either way will work.  Back when I still bottled I often lagered six 
weeks before bottling without adding fresh yeast.  The beers always 
carbonated.  I did take care to pick up a little yeast with the 
racking cane when racking to the priming vessel.

The advantage of doing it this way is that you are bottling very 
clear beer and get very little sediment in the bottle.  However, 
bottling the green beer, allowing it to carbonate, and then lagering 
should work just as well.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:07:19 +0800
From: "Reuben Filsell" <filsell at myplace.net.au>
Subject: Cleaning  Aeration stone


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Request Address Only - No Articles <homebrew-request@hbd.org>
> To: <homebrew at hbd.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 1:26 PM
> Subject: Homebrew Digest #4092 (November 13, 2002)
>
>
> >
> > Does anyone have a better suggestion for cleaning and storing my
aeration
> > stone?
> >
> > thanks,
> > mike
> >
> I too boil my stone to clean it then I plug it back into the air pump to
dry
> it out, after all unless you can store it in sterile conditon then it will
> need to be sanitised before the next use which I do in the pressure cooker
> with its tubing.
> Reuben.
> W.A.
>



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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:35:31 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Decade old lagers

Brewers

Back when I still bottled some of my beers, I used to put a few pint 
long necks in the cellar closet (48-64F seasonally) as an archive.  I 
decided to pull out a few of the last ones to take to the Ann Arbor 
Brewers' Guild last Friday.  They were amazing.

I had two all grain 12P pilsners from 1990 and 1991.  They were 
nearly indistinguishable from one another, although had a bit of a 
honey note, presumably from oxidization.  The hops aroma was gone 
entirely, and the hops bitterness was in the range of a helles.  But 
the amazing thing was the huge, fresh MALT aroma!  They didn't have 
this when they were fresh.  This was the kind of malt aroma that I 
have smelled only occasionally - Aass Jule Ol and Samiclaus are two 
examples.  I wish I knew how to get this without waiting a decade.

The strange thing is that my notes make no mention of bottling, only 
kegging, but I remember that back then I usually bottled a dozen or 
so for the archives.  These were certainly bottle conditioned. 
Nothing else would give that kind of longevity - the yeast clearly 
are wonderfully protective against oxidation.

Then I opened the last two bocks that placed in 1993 NHC and took 
Best of Show in the 1993 Taste of the Great Lakes in Frankenmuth, MI. 
Fred Eckhard and Michael Jackson were on the BOS panel, and a friend, 
Hal Buttermore, took notes of the panel's public comments as they 
tasted the beers (these public BOS panels seem to have nearly 
disappeared).  I couldn't make the conference at the last minute as 
my father was very ill.  I just looked at the notes and Hal said that 
the beer "swept" the BOS.  It was 11 months old at this point.

But perhaps as rewarding was tasting this beer last week.  It had 
dried out a bit (but it was a 1.067 bock, not a bigger dopplebock) 
but was still wonderfully malty and complex.  Everyone raved, and 
AABGer Mike O'Brien (also of pico-Brewing Systems) kept saying how 
much he liked it, and it made him glad he came to the meeting.  That 
was pretty nice praise.  And even more since I just checked the notes 
and discovered that Mike was also on the BOS panel back in 1993, at 
which time he said (according to the notes) that he wanted a half 
liter.  Consistent palate, Mike!

BTW, the previous year's BOS winner got an all-expense paid trip to 
the GABF in Colorado.  I got a nice 1/2 liter German cut crystal 
"stein" with a pewter lid. :-(

I double decocted this beer and used about 2/3 pils malt, 1/3 Munich, 
and 14 oz oven roasted pils (400F for 16 minutes) and 2 ounces home 
roasted on the stove top in an old iron popcorn popper to a little 
paler than chocolate.

BTW, my notes say that for this one, I did use fresh yeast at 
bottling (W2206 Bavarian for both).

The lesson, I think, is - brew clean and avoid oxidation and bottle 
conditioned, cool stored lagers can keep a surprisingly time.  Try 
keeping a few.

I still have a few mystery beers down in the cellar.  I'll have to 
try them soon.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:50:46 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bwible at pond.com>
Subject: Re: From whence doth "tripel" derive?


>The other school of thought says a Tripple is so named because
>it has had three fermentations. The first one is the primary
>fermentation, the second if the secondary fermentation or
>aging, and, finally, the third is bottle-conditioning.

And what, ONLY Tripple undergoes this fermentation regimine?
Singles and Doubles (and about a dozen other styles) aren't
also primary and secondary fermented, then bottle conditioned?

Bill




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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:14:39 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Sodium Hypochlorite (water supply)

From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude02 at earthlink.net>
sez:

"When the city says that their water is chlorinated, they
generally mean that it has sodium hypochlorite in it.
It is true that a number of places have gone to
chloramines, but they will generally tell you that the
water is "chloraminated" (which I did not know was a
word).

In a nutshell, the difference (to the municipalities) is
that chloramines are much more stable-- which means to
us that it is harder to get out, as Darrell pointed out
in the last digest."


In addition, chloramines are not tri-halo-methane (THM) precursors, which is 
a carcinogen.  The stability and safety are the main factors for 
chloramines.  I believe Denver Co. has used them for many many 
years--decades, in fact.

Regards,
Mike Sharp





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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:19:47 -0800 (PST)
From: "Byron's Yahoo Account" <btowles at yahoo.com>
Subject: first all grain and keg

Well friends and neighbors, it's finally time.

I'm set to do my first all grain batch, I have the equipment, I have the time
in 2 weeks, I have the LHBS that's more than willing to help. My question
is, what recipe should I make? What style? I was toying with making an IPA, or
possibly a porter, but wanted to know what sage advice would be given to me
from those with MUCH more brewing experience than I have. 

I've just purchased a small (9.5cu ft) refrigerator as well, so I have the
space to place my new-to-me kegs. I have most of the eq I need for kegging
as well. 4 cornies and a 15lb bottle, and some other stuff. I *could*
theoretically lager this first batch, but I think I'd prefer an ale, as I want
to taste my first AG batch faster than lagering will allow.

So, in summation, what should an All-Grain newbie make for his first batch?
Any and all replies are appreciated. 

TIA
Byron Towles
Member of the Crescent City Homebrewers
http://hbd.org/crescent
[922.5, 204.2} AR


=====
- ---------------------------------------------
The two most common elements in the
universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
- ---------------------------------------------



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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:30:10 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Bottle conditioning a lager



In HBD#4093, Peter asked about bottle conditioning a Pilsner:

>I have a pilsner happily fermenting in my ss conical.  I usually keg my 
>beers, but I'd like to bottle this pilsner.  I'm planning on lagering it for 2

>months, but I'm afraid that if I bottle it after 2 months of lagering there 
>will not be enough viable yeast to carbonate the beer.  Should I just 
>prime and bottle as usual after two months of lagering, or should I 
>bottle it and let it age for 2 months in the bottle?  
 
I have lagered for 2 months and then bottle conditioned.
I have had it work without adding more yeast and I have
had it fail. 

I have consistent success by rehydrating danstar ale yeast
(any variety) and adding at bottling time.  There is a yeast
that is viable to ferment the priming surgar.

You last option will work,  but putting 2 cases of bottles in the 
frig for 2 months isn't that simple.  YOu also loose one of the 
benifits of secondary fermentation - sediment dropping out
that you can keep out of your bottle.



=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:42:21 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: hypochlorite

When chlorine is dissolved in water the following overall reaction takes 
place

Cl2 + H2O --> HOCl + HCl

with HOCl being hypochlorous acid and HCl being hydrochloric acid.  At 
reasonable pH  it's actually

nCl2 + nH2O --> (2n-j)H+     + nCl-  + jHOCl + (n-j)OCl-

with j = n at low pH, j < n at mid pH and j = 0 at high pH. In other 
words at low pH only hypochlorous acid (HOCl) is formed (at pH < 5 it 
tends to disproportionate releasing chlorine gas - don't mix acid and 
bleach - see below) and at high pH only hypochorite ion (OCl-) is formed 
(this is very stable and is why bleach contains lye) and in the mid 
range there is a mix that depends on the pH.  Dissolving chlorine gas in 
water is the method used by most treatment plants. As Jeff mentioned, 
many these days also dose in ammonia in order to produce chloramine 
(NH3Cl - poisonous - don't mix ammonia and bleach!) for reasons I won't 
get into here. Older and smaller plants may use sodium or potassium 
hypochlorite (NaOCl). When this is added to water the result is same mix 
of HOCl and OCl-. In this case, however, chloride ion (Cl-) is not 
present but sodium is. The bleach used at water treatement plants is 
much more concentrated than the bleach you buy at the store. The latter 
is about 5 "trade percent" and the latter, I think, at least 50.

The test kits measure "available chlorine". This is proportional to the 
number of chlorine atoms in added hypochlorite  but equal to only half 
the number of atoms of dissolved chlorine gas because one atom from each 
molecule of the gas winds up as a chloride ion. This is really what you 
want to know, i.e. how much chlorine is available for killing things.

The most effective killing of microorganisms is accomlished by the HOCl 
molecule because it, with its neutral charge, slips through cell 
membranes more easily than charged OCl- ions. Thus effectiveness of 
chlorine treatment is enhanced at low pH. The reason that bleach 
(including the solutions sold for water treatment) is dosed with lye is 
for stability and safety (plus one way to make it is to bubble chlorine 
through lye and many machines that chlorinate swimming pools and small 
systems make their bleach this way by electrolysing a salt solution and 
mixing the chlorine gas from one electrode with the lye at the other). 
The safety aspect is why smaller plants tend to use hypochlorite. An 
interesting bit of irony concerns the largest escape of chlorine gas in 
the history of the US water treatement industry. It occured at a 
hypochlorite plant when a truck driver accidentally dumped his load of 
sulfuric acid into a hypochlorite tank.

Bottom line (as Jeff said): it doesn't matter whether the HOCl/OCl-   
 came from dissolved chlorine gas or dissolved hypochlorite, boiling 
will remove it. So will Campden tablets (or photographer's hypo) which 
will also remove chloramine (which can also be remove by boiling but it 
must be an extensive, i.e. a couple of hours) boil.

A.J.




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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:39:19 -0500
From: James Keller <kellerj at kenyon.edu>
Subject: Sodium Hypochlorite

Rick Theiner says ...
>I am 99.9% certain that chloramines and sodium hypochlorite are the only
>chlorine compounds added to municipal water supplies.

I am in one of the growing number of communities that use
chlorine dioxide (OClO) as a sanitizer for the municipal water supply.
They generate it on-site from a salt, NaOClO, which is more
easily transported than other chlorine-based sanitizers.

FWIW, I do not know exactly how to remove OClO from my tap water.
As OClO (a gas at RT) it will boil off ... but reaction products
may leave a source of chlorine in the water.  Activated charcoal
might do the trick.  I'm using bottled water until I can get a
better handle on the water profile.

 -Jamie in Mount Vernon, OH
[148.4, 151.5 apparent Rennerian]



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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:42:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Bottling pilsner

On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:28:58 -0500
Peter Beauregard asks about bottling a pilsner...

>...I'm afraid that if I bottle it after 2 months of
lagering 
>there will not be enough viable yeast to carbonate
the beer.  Should I just 
>prime and bottle as usual after two months of
lagering, or should I 
>bottle it and let it age for 2 months in the bottle? 


Peter,  I would recommend that you bottle it up as you
would any other beer.  I have bottled all my pilsners
and  strong lagers after months of lagering without
adding anything but priming sugar.  Sufficient yeast
for carbonating will remain alive for quite a while in
the lagering beer, metabolising various sugars and
organic compounds.  You won't need to let it condition
as long as you've surmised,  2 weeks at cool temps
should be adequate.  

If you really don't feel comfortable doing that,  then
you can simply add some fresh yeast, or you can get
really wild and krausen your beer as has been
discussed recently. This will produce the fastest
conditioning, but in my opinion, is not worth the
trouble for a pilsner of moderate strength and
lagering time. 

Kevin Crouch
Vancouver, WA USA



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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:51:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: SWIG Method

John Misrahi wrote:
By the way, this is a great technique for brewing 2 beers from one mash, and
you can add specialty grains etc.. to make a darker beer for the second
which will of course, be of a local gravity. There was an interesting
article on the topic in BYO magazine a while back, written by Drew Avis. I
have become a definite enthusiast of this technique, which gives me more
variety from my limited brewing time.

What a coincidence, I just stumbled across his write-up on the "SWIG Method" 
(Split Wort of Increased Gravity as he calls it) this morning while digging 
through my brewing bookmarks. 

http://www.strangebrew.ca/swig/index.html

Sounds like an intriguing way to get more variety with less effort.

- --rama



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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:03:26 -0600
From: "Rod McBride" <alehusband at planetkc.com>
Subject: Cider definitions & recommendations

This is belated as I have spent several days fighting the filters to get my
post up.  Hopefully this one won't get bounced.

Regarding John Sarette & "John up here in Duluth" discussing the addition of
sugar or honey to apple juice to make their cider stronger, I beg to differ
with your calling it cider once you add such adjuncts.  While BJCP
guidelines are hazy on this (except for New England Cider where adjuncts are
virtually required), as a homebrewer who has devoted much research and a
good portion of his income and liver to cider making, I feel duty bound to
suggest some traditional definitions.

Apple Juice: the juice pressed from apples, unfermented.  Sometimes sold as
"cider" or "sweet cider" even though it's just apple juice.

Cider: Apple juice which has been fermented to make it more suitable for
human consumption.

Apple Wine: Apple juice with additional sugar to boost its alcohol content.
A German tradition, and there is nothing wrong with it (I've made some
myself), but as soon as you add sugar to the apple juice, it's not going to
be cider proper.  Personally I think BJCP guidelines should explicitly ban
sugar additions to tradtional ciders.  A proper cider should not be a belly
warmer and should not have to compete with apple wines any more than
witbiers should be judged along side Tripels.

Cyser: Apple juice with additional sugar in the form of honey.  This is a
BJCP recognized catagory and the point that this is more characterful than
apple wine is well taken, provided good honey and good technique.

Also a tip for all cider/cyser/apple wine makers: keep it cool.  Apple juice
will ferment like a house on fire, creating higher alcohols from tremendous
heat generated by rapid fermentation, and ultimately driving off the
aromatics of the fruit itself.  50F is a good target fermentation
temperature, and I have been able to get Wyeast's and White Lab's sweet mead
yeasts to work at these temperatures.  Often, once the ferment gets going,
ambient temperatures need to be 40F or cooler to keep the fermentation heat
from kicking up above 50F.

And for those of you (like me) who love mead, I've found a great tool for
getting past the obstacle of honey's difficult ferment.  In addition to the
yeast nutriet and oxygen, pitching your mead must with the lees of a similar
size batch of cider ensures lots of hungry yeast ready to go to work on your
honey.  Basically, every time I make 5 gallons of cider, I'm making a 5
gallon starter for 5 gallons of mead.  You don't generally want to reuse
mead cakes as the high alcohol has worn the yeast to the ragged edge (even
my light 1070 SG meads), but if you're careful about your sanitation you can
take a single sweet mead culture and do 40-50 gallons of cider and 40-50
gallons of mead.  Just about enough to fill in the gaps between beers.

As far as the sweet mead yeast recommendation, it tends to stop just about
1.001 to 1.002 from juice that was say 1.050.  The difference between that
and the .998 or so you get from most yeasts is the difference in apple
character in the finished product.  Also, grape tannin and malic acid can be
added to adjust for inadequate (insipid) juice, though I'd wait on the acid
until after fermentation to avoid dropping the pH too low.

Rod McBride

"Of course, the music is a great difficulty. You see, if one plays good
music, people don't listen, and if one plays bad music, people don't
talk." - Oscar Wilde



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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:48:14 -0800
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Tripel

Good Evening,
My personal opinion is that the term "tripel" relates to the general
strength of a beer, particularly as it relates to other beers brewed by the
same brewery.
Then, think about product promotion...how can I get someone to drink my 
beer? Therein may lie the gimmick.

 From Michael Jackson's Great Beers of Belgiam, Third Edition, p 277: "The 
Carmelites of Dendermonde, in East Flanders, apparently brewed a 
three-grain beer in the 1600's. This information, from a current book on 
brewing history, was discovered coincidentally after the Bosteels Brewery,
of nearby Bruggenhout, had decided on "three grains" as its next, highly 
distinctive specialty.

Karmeliet, launched in 1996 to justified acclaim, is a Tripel (6.0w; 8.ov) 
but made from barley, wheat and oats. As each of these grains is used in 
both raw and malted forms, it could at a pinch be called a six-grain beer. 
Indeed, it was inspired by the fashion for multi-grain breads."

Pat, I'm going to guess that your friend encountered an empty bottle of 
Karmeliet.

nathan in madison, wi



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