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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: re: Mini kegs and other thoughts (Teresa Knezek)
  More heating/cooling questions (Todd Kenna)
  Re:Blowoff affect flavor??? ("Chad Gould")
  Re: tap a draft or party pig? (Andy Woods)
  First All Grain Batch...No Sparge (Stuart Lay)
  Copper chiller smell??!! (D Perry)
  re: Siphoning/pressure ("Tidmarsh Major")
  Aeration stones. (Wendy & Reuben Filsell)
  Bubblegum ("Shawn E Lupold, Ph.D")
  Splitting the Brew Day into Two Days (courtney03)
  RE: 1056 vs. WLP001 ("Mcgregor, Arthur, Mr, OSD-ATL")
  re: Conical advantages? (Stacy)" <sgroene at lucent.com>
  Re: tap a draft or party pig? (Mark Kempisty)
  Re: Water Softener Using Potassium Chloride (Jeff Renner)
  Re: "dry" Stout (Jeff Renner)
  WhiteLabs Platinum Series (Jeff Renner)
  Re: 1056 vs. WLP001 (Bill Wible)
  RE: Stirred Mash? (DHinrichs)
  mash pH with soft water versus styles ("Jim Dunlap")
  Bubble Gun Flavor ("Dan Listermann")
  Re: Orval (Paul Edwards)
  Building a Lagering Box ("John Misrahi")
  Re: Re: Orval (Pat Babcock)
  Apparent Rennerian ("Dave and Joan King")
  Anheuser-Busch Information ("Peter Garofalo")


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Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:08:37 -0900
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com>
Subject: Re: re: Mini kegs and other thoughts

On or thereabout 11/20/02, Tidmarsh Major thusly:
>some of the minikegs available here with commercial beer inside 
>(Warsteiner comes to mind)  have a built in tap and a black bung 
>with a red spile that twists to vent the keg.

Well, here's my current brainstorm: get some of those 
built-in-gravity-tap mini kegs you're describing, and  create a hose 
adapter to fit on/in the tap... then attach the hose to a proper beer 
engine.

With the beer engine system, it appears all you need on the keg end 
of the deal is a hose to hook up to the beer engine. The diagrams 
always show a full size keg laid on its side, with the tap on one 
built-in taps at the bottom, I don't see why it wouldn't work.

If it doesn't work, I can figure out how to store a full-size keg on 
its side somewhere, and still have a perfectly usable gravity-feed 
mini keg to use.

I'm just pondering whether drinking 5L of Becks is worth it to get 
the keg, or if I should just order a couple of empty ones... I 
probably won't have the money left for a full mini keg once I buy the 
beer engine though. Been looking online for one today. Ouch!
- -- 
:: Teresa Knezek ::
teresa at mivox.com
http://mivox.com/


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Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:33:44 -0800
From: Todd Kenna <Todd_K at cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: More heating/cooling questions

I also am looking for a heating/cooling controller.  I want to use it to 
control fermentation in a fridge/freezer.  My problem is this, My house 
gets quite cold- to cold for ale fermentation in the winter, but it gets 
quite warm in the summer- to warm for Ale fermentation.  So I am looking 
for a system which would allow me to set a temperature and maintain it 
through both heating and cooling. Which would also allow me to maintain 
both ale and lager fermentation temperatures. I have thought about using an 
under glass terrarium heating pad with a rheostat for reptiles in the 
bottom a refrigerator for the heating side, and then using a conventional 
temperature controller for the cooling side.  Although I would prefer a 
more cohesive system with only one controller.  So I could easily set new 
temperatures for different kinds of yeasts.  Does anyone know of such a system?




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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 00:50:48 -0500
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re:Blowoff affect flavor???

> >I want to brew 2.5g batches in a 5g carboy. Because of
> >the airspace, I don't need a blowoff tube. However,
> >the JOHB states that the blowoff tube, "gets rid of
> >excessively bitter hop resins,excess yeast and other
> >things that may contribute to hangovers".
> >Has anyone ever proved/disproved this? Should I still
> >use a blowoff tube? Thanks for any info.
> I regularily put 5 - 5.5 gal into a 7 gal fermenter.
> and rarely need to use a blowoff tube.  If i need to use
> one, its because the fermentation was that vigorous.

I have never heard of anything that blow off tubes take away, other than a
bit of bitterness. (E.g. "excessive hop resins") This can be adjusted in the
recipie. I can't see excessive yeast being a *bad* thing!

Hangovers may be facilitated by caused by yeast byproducts, e.g. fusel
alcohols often get blamed. Byproduct production is largely determined by
yeast selection and temperature. I don't think blowoff tubes matter one way
or another.

> As far as hangovers go, I hear the theory about all malt
> beers reduce hangovers compared to adjunct beers.  I can't
> tell if that one is true either.

I doubt it, except for the fact that adjunct beers are "easier to drink" and
don't fill up your stomach; some may drink more adjunct beers in a setting.
Homebrew itself may be less hangover inclined because of the natural yeast
in the product (contributing vitamins that alcohol takes away), but other
than that...

I agree, the 2.5g in 5g sounds good. That's plenty of space. I wish I knew
how to estimate space better. My current batch rode its krausen *right* up
to the rim of the neck... geesh.
http://tilt.largo.fl.us/dbbc/dbbc012ferment.jpg




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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 00:54:46 -0500
From: Andy Woods <awoods at nwc.com>
Subject: Re: tap a draft or party pig?

James,
      I've used the Party Pig a few times and they work pretty damn 
good.  Each pig hold 2.25 gallons and requires a seperate pouch that 
provices the carbonation for the brew (along w/ a little corn sugar). 
 Once you pressurize the system, the system takes 2 weeks to carbonate 
(i've used it in 10 days and it was solid).  There is a little rubber 
gasket that is used to seperate the bottle from the tap, and is a little 
thin.  It takes a little practice setting it right, but it's not too 
bad.  I've also heard that mason jar gaskets work better.
      I think the party pigs are a solid alternative to the kegs, and 
great to travel with.

aw

***********************
Andy Woods
Research Associate
Network Computing Magazine
http://www.nwc.com
***********************

 



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Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:55:37 -0800
From: Stuart Lay <zzlay at yahoo.com>
Subject: First All Grain Batch...No Sparge

I have my first all-grain batch finishing in the fermenter.  A simple 
American Ale (14lbs 2 row, 2 lbs Crystal 40, Centennial and Cascade, 
WLP-001).  A significant emotional experience because I've been an 
extract brewer for two years and because I decided to go no-sparge.

I was taken with no-sparge brewing through John Palmer's article in 
April BYO.  Seemed to be the answer for me to move to all grain while 
keeping a handle on the time required for a brew session.  The final 
piece was an HBD contributor's (sorry I can't remember the name...Kap'n 
Salty maybe) piece about he mashed one night and brewed the next.

So, to get 24 liters finished beer, I mashed the above last Thursday. I 
used Fix's 40/60/70 schedule for 30 minutes per rest.  Started with 14 
quarts for dough-in, 9 quarts 210 degree water to get to 60, followed by 
20 minutes on the stove to get to 70. Transferred mash from my 7.5 
gallon SS pot to a 56 quart Coleman Extreme Cooler/EZ Masher and added 
the remaining 19 quarts at 185 to get close to a mashout.

When I drained the cooler, I got about 8.5 gallons of .042 extract.  
Wrapped and sealed keg with saran wrap.

Friday, I boiled the whole mess and added 1 oz 5.6 Centennial at 60 
minutes, 2/3 oz 5.5 Cascade at 45, 1 oz Centennial at 30, 2/3 oz Cascade 
at 15 and another at end of boil.  Cooled to 85, aerated wort with a SS 
stone, and pitched the yeast.  OG: 1.045.  Yield 7.75 gallons. 3 quarts 
waste at the bottom of the keg.  Apparent efficiency (if this term means 
anything re no-sparge brewing) was 69.4%.

The temperature in the fermenter broke yesterday so I pulled a sample:  
FG 1.010. Nice Cascade aroma and smooth malt taste...yumm.

Will bottle up Friday or so.

My thanks to John Palmer, Ken Schwartz, and Jim Hilbing (Strand Brewers) 
who all published articles or wrote spreadsheets to help brewers like me 
move up/into all grain.  BTW -- the Schwartz spreadsheet predictions for 
grain required/gravity etc were accurate to within the accuracy of my 
measuring equipment.  Way cool!

Next brew will be a steam beer.

Are there other brewers who regularly no-sparge?  Lessons learned?

stuart
zzlay at yahoo.com




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Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:55:06 -0800
From: D Perry <daperry75 at shaw.ca>
Subject: Copper chiller smell??!!

I have a copper counter-flow chiller, and recently I have noticed a
strange smell coming out of it when in use.  Now I have run PBW through
it and also stopped the flow so that it would soak inside the chiller,
but I am still getting the same smell.  I also rinse and re-sanitize the
chiller after use with Star San (no affiliation).  I was wondering if
anyone else has noticed this with a copper coil.

PS the smell is a metallic one which leads to believe that it is not a
sanitation problem, but hey I have been known to be wrong.

Thanks

Dave
[1937.4, 308] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:20:02 -0600
From: "Tidmarsh Major" <tidmarsh at bellsouth.net>
Subject: re: Siphoning/pressure

Strom from Palo Alto asks, "wouldn't the siphon stop as soon as the 
pressure in the receiving vessel rose to a certain level (and the 
pressure in the higher vessel fell to a certain level)?"

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my description. By using a jumper between 
the two gas in ports in addition to the siphon line between the two 
liquid out ports, the pressure in the two vessels is equalized as the 
gas forced out of the receiving vessel is pushed into the donor 
vessel. Like a counter-pressure bottle filler, the siphon takes place 
at whatever pressure the beer is under, maintaining carbonation and 
decreasing foaming.

Tidmarsh Major
Tuscaloosa, Alabama



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Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:34:12 +0800
From: Wendy & Reuben Filsell <filsell at myplace.net.au>
Subject: Aeration stones.




> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:33:21 -0500
> From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
> Subject: Cleaning aeration stone with alcohol
>
> I say stick with water and bases as cleaning agents for proteins and lipids.
> - --
> Fred L. Johnson
> Apex, North Carolina, USA

Well now Fred, that's the second suggestion you have shot down so how about
just describing the materials methods and rationale you use so the rest of
us can benefit from your critiques.
Reuben.
W.A.






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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:51:42 -0500
From: "Shawn E Lupold, Ph.D" <lupolds at jhmi.edu>
Subject: Bubblegum


Beerbuddy asks about Anderson Winter Solstace's bubblegum flavor.  I've
found this flavor in Belgian ale homebrews.  It is some flavor compound
from the Belgian yeast.  Interestingly, this flavor isn't noticeable in
commercially available beers from Belgium.  Maybe their fermentation
temperatures and conditioning techniques minimize its production?

Shawn Lupold
Alexandria, VA



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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:23:00 est
From: courtney03 at iquest.net
Subject: Splitting the Brew Day into Two Days

Hello HBD:

I'm a first-post newbie, so please excuse any breeches in
protocol/idiot questions, etc.

I'm an all-grain brewer (6+ years), but have been hampered in
the number of brews over the years based on long brew days 
(wife/first child time constrains, and nameless other LAME
excuses). I read something somewhere (BYO/Zymurgy) about
splitting the brew day into two shorter segments, i.e. mash and
sparge one day/evening, and boil/pitch the next day or days).
Has anyone tried this technique?  Are there any detrimental
effects of storing the runoff overnight/several nights? I know
that since the boiling will be done the next day that any
potential beasties which have gotten in to the pre-boil wort
will be nailed in the boil, but are there any flavor 'hits' or
other issues to consider doing things this way?  I'm also
thinking that this technique may be only marginally time-saving
since set-up and tear-down times are now present on both days.

Just trying to increase my potential batches - any insights are
greatly appreciated!

Scott Courtney
Indy, IN


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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:49:48 -0500
From: "Mcgregor, Arthur, Mr, OSD-ATL" <Arthur.Mcgregor at osd.mil>
Subject: RE: 1056 vs. WLP001

Hi All!

In HBD # 4098, Dennis Collins asked about the difference in taste between
Wyeast 1056 and White Labs WLP001.  

I also just bought White Labs California Ale Yeast (WLP001) instead of the
Wyeast American Ale yeast (#1056) because that is what the Homebrew store
had in stock, and I was also told that it was the same as Wyeast #1056, just
a different name.  I have been using Wyeast #1056 for almost all by brews --
just brewed Batch #205 last weekend :^), and I am satisfied with the
results.

Anyways, I used the White Labs #WLP001 for a Pale Ale I brewed two weekends
ago, and it definitely looks different from Wyeast #1056.  The Krausen from
the WLP001 is thicker than the Wyeast #1056, and formed a thick yeast cake
that floated at the top of the primary.   I transferred to the secondary
last night (10 days after brewing) and there was still a thick Krausen/yeast
cake floating at the top.  Normally with the Wyeast #1056, the Krausen has
fallen in by then.  In fact this morning I checked on the secondary, and the
Krausen has reformed, and I had to replace the "S" fermentation lock with a
blow-off tube, because it looked like it was getting close to coming up
through the fermentation lock!  I am interested in how this beer will taste
- -- it is one of the beers I am bringing to the office holiday party.

Hoppy Brewing,
Art McGregor
Lorton, Virginia
[424.1, 123.3] Rennerian


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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:54:15 -0500
From: "Groene, Stacy B (Stacy)" <sgroene at lucent.com>
Subject: re: Conical advantages?

Henry in Portage writes:
"There's been a lot of posts lately about SS conical fermenters. I'm missing
the advantage to such a device."

Henry,

There are several advantages when using a conical, based on my  particular
brewing circumstances:

1.  No need to rack to secondary.  (not everyone does this, but most do & I
always did)
2.  No more cleaning of carboys.  That is 6 carboys for a 15 gallon batch
(primary & secondary)
3.  The conical is extremely easy to clean.
4.  No lifting of full carboys.
5.  As you mentioned....dump trub & yeast. (and occasionally harvest yeast
to repitch)
6.  Don't overlook the fun of tinkering with new gadgets & gizmos.  This is
a tangible part of the hobby for many homebrewers.

Due to a significant reduction in the time I have available to brew, I have
scaled up to almost entirely 15 gallon batches.  The further time savings
from not having to rack 3 carboys at a time and clean a total of 6 carboys
is enough to justify the expense for me.

Obviously, homebrewers or potential homebrewers that are in the market for
the your 1 gallon system as their main brewing system would probably not
realize these benefits, but the list above are the advantages I get using
the conical & there I'm sure there are many others not listed here. 

Regards,

Stacy Groene
Columbus, OH


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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:26:19 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Re: tap a draft or party pig?

James Payne asks about Tap-A-Draft verses Party Pig...

I have a Tap-A-Draft set-up and love it.  My wife does too and she
doesn't drink beer.  What she likes is that I can have the "bottling"
stage done in less than an hour with a lot less mess.  One problem I do
have is that I feel you really need two people to fill the Tap-A-Draft
bottles since they do not have flat bottoms to sit on.  The last thing I
want to do is drop and spill one of those.  One person supports the
bottle while the other works the filler and sets it aside.

- --
Take care,
Mark






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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:39:09 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Water Softener Using Potassium Chloride

John Vaughn <hogbrew at mtaonline.net> writes from Wasilla, AK

>I had a water softener installed and am using potassium
>chloride to recharge the resin bed. ... Can I use this water for 
>brewing?  I assume I will need to add calcium for the mash.

Probably not.  It depends on what the anions are in the water - the 
negatively charged ones like sulfate (SO4-2), bicarbonate (HCO3-1), 
chloride Cl-1).  You exchanged one cation (positively charged), 
potassium (K+) for one or two others that caused water hardness, 
calcium (Ca+2) and magnesium (Mg+2).  You apparently also got rid of 
some iron, not sure which form.

So, if you still have bicarbonate, you shouldn't brew with it, at 
least not pale beers.  The alkalinity of bicarbonate (often expressed 
as carbonate for convenience) needs to be balanced by the acidity of 
dark grains.

I'm not sure what high levels of potassium might do in water.

As John Palmer writes in his book How to Brew (available online at 
http://www.howtobrew.com/), "In general, you should never use 
softened water for mashing."

You might try aerating, boiling and decanting your water.  That's 
what I do.  It precipitates out the bicarbonate as calcium carbonate 
(limestone) and judging by the tan color of the precipitate, it also 
takes out the small amount of iron I have.

Then you would add calcium as gypsum or CaCl2.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:01:22 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: "dry" Stout

Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com> writes from up in Alaska (this must 
be my day for answering Alaskans):

>Well, I actually meant "dry" as in "alcohol free"... heheh. The kit
>was labeled "Irish Stout" so I don't know if that's what you'd
>typically call dry flavor-wise or not.
>
>The kit itself was 7lbs of extract, plus a bag of malto dextrin ...

Aha!  There the problem.  Malto-dextrin.  Lose it.  It is a 
non-fermentable sugar that gives some body, sweetness and raises the 
finishing specific gravity (since it can't ferment).  It probably 
fermented pretty much as far as it was going to, depending on the 
amount of malto-dextrin.  So you made a sweet stout.

You might ask the HB shop (assuming they put the kit together) why 
they included malto-dextrin in an Irish stout, which is normally 
considered to be a dry (non-sweet) stout.

Of course, it there was only a little, then you may still have not 
gotten a complete fermentation.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:15:20 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: WhiteLabs Platinum Series

"Don Van Valkenburg" <dvanv at earthlink.net> wrote:

>Lovers of Orval might want to try using a new yeast available from White
>labs soon.  It will be one of their Platinum series available (I think) in
>January under the name of Bastogne.  I obtained a vile of this yeast on a
>tour of Orval while on a Belgium tour last year.   I sent it to White labs
>with the hope/expectation that they might make it available to the
>homebrewing community - and they did.

Nice job, Don.  The HB Orval fans will appreciate this.

There is another Platinum yeast available this January/February that 
I had a hand in obtaining - Essex ale yeast WLP022, I believe.  This 
is from Ridley's Brewery http://www.ridleys.co.uk .  Their mild took 
a prize ten years ago or so in the GBBF.  A friend of mine is the 
CAMRA liaison officer to Ridleys.

When we visited our friends three years ago, we had a VIP tour and I 
brought back some yeast.  I've been brewing on and off with a cleaned 
up sample of it and like it.  Very English in flavor profile, and a 
super top cropper.

Then our friends visited us this spring and brought another sample 
along which Chris White had said he would be interested in.  They've 
cleaned it up (these brewery in England never seem to have a really 
pure yeast, but they just keep on repitching it without much problem 
if the ale is drunk quickly).

If you try it, please let me know what you think of it.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:17:10 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: 1056 vs. WLP001


I, too, am a faithful user of Wyeast 1056.

The problem is that the major homebrew store suppliers have
stopped carrying Wyeast, and have all switched to White Labs.
I don't understand why its a "one or the other" situation,
but it is.  I guess its a refrigerator space issue on the
part of the suppliers.

We used to be able to order Wyeast a few tubes at a time.
White Labs had (and still does have) a "Freshness Assurance"
program, where they ship a full set of tubes to the stores
once a quarter.  For participating in this program, shops
are permitted to return a percentage of expired tubes they
don't sell.  

White Labs also provides free yeast selection posters, offers
recipe sheets, has superior packaging, and provides a number
of other benefits to shops and suppliers.

Wyeast, on the other hand, has sat on their success as the
original yeast suppier, and does not offer any of these
programs.  They've had numerous packaging issues, and they
still have some problems.  I don't know why they even continue
to make smack packs, because nobody buys them anymore, at least
not in my store.  We live in the age of convenience, and
pitchable yeast is another example.  God forbid we should have
to actually plan a brew day and smack a pack 3 or 4 days in
advance.

Wyeast does not have any programs that benefit the stores or
the suppliers.  As I was told by one of my sales reps "They
don't have a pulse."

This is why everybody is switching to White Labs.

I do continue to stock and sell Wyeast, but its more difficult
for me to do so now, since I have to deal directly with them
to do it.  They are in Oregon, and I am in Philadelphia.  And
they have no return programs, so I have to be much more careful
about what I buy.

On the positive side, I have found their staff to be very
accommodating.  I placed a last minute order, added to it,
and they handled it well.   They made it very easy for me
to open an account with them, and I placed an order at the
same time, which was delivered exactly when they said it
would be.  

It's unfortunate.  I like Wyeast, I believe they make a good
product, and I also believe competition is a good thing.
I sincerely hope that Wyeast can turn around.  I would not
like to see there be only one yeast supplier.  I like having
choices.  But loss of sales to the major suppliers like that
HAS to hurt big time.

As to the issue of whether 1056 and WLP001 are the same yeast,
I've personally made the same recipe with each.  I thought
the resulting beers were very different.  Therefore, my personal
opinion is that they're NOT the same yeast.  The previous owner
of this shop told me I was crazy, he says they are exactly
the same.  (?)
 
Bill



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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:53:43 -0600
From: DHinrichs at Quannon.com
Subject: RE: Stirred Mash?

>From: "Shawn E Lupold, Ph.D" <lupolds at jhmi.edu>
>Subject: Stirred Mash?


>I'm relatively new to all grain brewing and have a question about
>extraction efficiency.  The more batches I brew, the worse my extraction
>efficiency.  I've improved my efficiency a bit by slowing down the
>sparge to about 2 quarts every 5 minutes; however, I still can't reach
>my initial extraction efficiencies.  Looking back in my notes, I noticed
>that I stirred my mash a little in the first few batches.  It makes
>sense that stirring would help with extraction, but I've heard not to do
>it because of oxidation.  Yet, we want to oxidize the boiled wort.
>What's the deal?  Does everyone stir their mash?  How much?

>Thanks for your help,

>Shawn Lupold
>Alexandria, VA

A very gentle mixing of the mash during the sparging process will increase
efficiency. This gentle mixing should be done in a way to avoid stirring the
whole grain bed up as you do not want to mess with the filtering
characteristics of the grain bed. The advice to avoid stirring your mash or
the collected wort while hot is to reduce oxygen pickup which could lead to
problems later in the beers life.

My practice is to gently drag a large spoon thru the mash a few times,
several times during the sparge. The spoon will only penetrate the grain bed
about 1/3 of the depth. This technique was suggested to me by a winner of
multiple gold medals winner.

Other things to consider in regards to efficiency:
 -grain crush, the courser the crush the less efficient
 -Cold sparge temps
 -Too fast of run off
 -Channeling of the grain bed during sparge (mixing can help in this regard)

Dave in Minnetonka, MN
Currently fermenting
 -5 gallons Kolsh
 -5 gallons Dark German Alt



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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:14:01 -0800
From: "Jim Dunlap" <jdpils at attbi.com>
Subject: mash pH with soft water versus styles

I share Mike's curiosity.  I live in the Seattle area where the water is
very soft.

Without any water adjustments, I have historically found that all light
colored recipes such as German hefeweizen and pilseners will have a mash pH
on the high end 5.5 - 5.7 whereas Porters, Dunkels, Bocks and Maerzens will
drop below 5.0.  IPA, ESB, and amber beers will be about normal, 5.0 - 5.5.
The acid in the darker grains helps bring the pH down, sometimes too far.  I
used a good quality 4 - 7 range pH paper.  They correlate well to the pH
meter.

I just bought a pH meter and found I am getting my tap water at about 8.4,
which seems higher than in the past.  It also appears that the hardness as
CaCO3 and Ca content have double in the past two years.  I am no water
chemist, however, I think these changes may be due to new federal filtration
requirements placed on water utilities.

For light beers, I am going to now treat my sparge and mash water to about
6.5 - 7.0 by adding lactic acid, but also thought it would be interesting to
try the acid malt.  Even though it would seem unneccessary the high pHof our
water prevents proper acidulation.  For me I would guess at 2.5% acid malt.

For English Ales, IPA's I usually add some CaSO4 to the sparge water
(0.5gms/gallon), since the mash pH is always 5.3 - 5.5

For the darker beers I still need to figure out how to raise the pH some.
Is it more effective to raise the pH with CaCO3 to the base water first or
mash water?  Are there other methods?

It seems for any case I should be dropping my sparge pH with lactic acid or
brewing salts may help.

By the way the water here has 20ppm Ca, ,1 ppm Mg, 1.4ppm SO4, hardness
~22ppm, and alkalinity 12 ppm, both measured by CaCO3.

Cheers,

Jim Dunlap
Woodinville WA




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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:18:13 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Bubble Gun Flavor

: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>writes:

>If you want a bubblegum flavor, use Wyeast 1214 and let the temperature
>get into the mid 70s.  You'll get that flavor!  As far as Winter
>Solstice goes, the spices have just seemed totally overdone the last
>couple of times I've bought any - and they don't seem to mellow very
>quickly.  Frankly, its the only one of their beers I don't consider top
>notch.  Luckily, I'm not required to drink it, but I'll probably try a
>bottle again this year.

Aha, what does Harsh know?  You want bubble gun?  I mean do you really,
really want bubble gum?  Four words: "Red Star Bread Yeast."

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:16:37 -0500
From: Paul Edwards <pedwards at iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Orval

Don Van Valkenburg was able to obtain a sample of Brasserie d'Orval's
primary yeast, and it'll be available from White Labs. I can't wait!!!

I visited Orval in 1995, had a wondeful tour.  Didn't get any yeast
samples but did get a printed handout that includes spec's for this
great beer.

- ------------------------

Original Gravity:  13.4 deg Plato
Color:             22 EBC
Bitterness:        32 EBC

(can somebody translate these last two to SRM and IBU?)

Malt is French, Dutch and German 

Pale Lager malt  86.5 percent
Caravienne       13.5 percent

Kettle Hops are Hallertau and Styrian Goldings.  

Orval is dry hopped with Styrian Goldings

Chipped pale candi sugar is used in the kettle (no amount given)
Bottles are primed with liquid invert sugar

Yeast:

An ale strain is used in the primary fermenter

5 different yeasts are added to the secondary (no specific info, except
that I was told one of them was a Brettanomyces Strain)

The primary fermenter yeast strain is used for bottling.  
Beer is bottle-conditioned for 6 weeks prior to release to market.
 
Drink & cellaring Temperature:  12 to 14 deg C (53 to 57 deg F)
Sell-by date:  5 years after bottling

- ----------------------

Contrary to some clone recipes, Orval DOES NOT have any coriander in it.

My wife and I were treated to 3 year old Orval in the manager's office
after our very extensive tour.  And we were given a box of six Orval
glasses, a couple of Orval bottle openers and a cookbook (in French)
featuring recipes, including ice cream, using Orval.

Now that Don's gotten the yeast to us, everybody should give an Orval
clone a try.

Thanks, Don!

Cheers!

Paul Edwards


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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:43:17 -0500
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: Building a Lagering Box

Hi all
I have a new project in mind. Rather than making room inside for an extra
fridge, i'd like to build a lagering box that takes advantage of the natural
cold and just has a heater to keep the beer from getting too cold.

I have a few thoughts, but basically i'm thinking of some kind of plywood
box with styrafoam or maybe fiberglass insulation. Just a simple hinge or
latch to keep raccoons out ;-)

It will sit on a high balcony so i'm not worried about 2 legged 'raccoons'.

For the heating part

(a) light bulb painted black. don't know if it can generate enough heat, but
i think in a small insulated enclosed space, it might be able to do it.

or
(b) small electric space heater

I figure it will need some kind of controller...i know they sell gadgets you
can plug a fridge into to maintain lagering temperatures. Could it work like
this - sort of in reverse?

I appreciate any suggestions on the matter,

John

Pothole?  Thats luxury!  I have to ferment directly in my mouth.  On brew
day I fill up my mouth with wort in the am and drop a few yeast cells in and
3 hours later I swallow.  Wish I had a pothole to ferment in. -Mike Brennan
on the HBD

"Ah, Billy Beer... we elected the wrong Carter." -Homer Simpson




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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:13:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: Re: Orval


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your trappist ale...

With all this hoopla over the Orval yeast being brought into
captivity, I am reminded that the Orval recipe has changed in
recent years. Are they at least still using the same yeast?

BTW, I've had great luck in cloning Orval using the Salmo
Trappist recipe in one of those AHA beer recipe books (I think
it's in "Winners Circle"?), using Wyeast 1214 for the main
ferment, and then innoulatng with the dregs of a bottle of Orval
in teh secondary. Yummy! (Unfortunately I can put my hands on
neither the log from that, nor the book...)


- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie



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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:22:47 -0500
From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Apparent Rennerian

>From the 11/18 post, John & Joy Vaughn are from
Wasilla, AK
[2938, 320] Apparent Rennerian

I have to say, that's a mighty big Apparent Rennerian !  I see it doesn't
matter much if you're a long way from the center of Home Brewing, isn't the
internet great!

Dave King, the Hop Head from BIER
[396, 89] Apparent Rennerian





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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:27:27 -0500
From: "Peter Garofalo" <pgarofa1 at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: Anheuser-Busch Information

Yesterday, I had the distinct pleasure of a guided tour of the local
Anheuser-Busch brewery, in Baldwinsville, NY. The tour guides (the
brewmaster greeted us, but could only stay a short while) were friendly,
knowledgeable, and full of answers to homebrewers' questions. I'll brain
dump some of the more pertinent points that stuck:

They routinely add a solution of aqueous zinc sulfate to the brewkettle, to
provide critical yeast nutrients (well, minerals). I don't know how much
they add, but there was a 2-liter Erlenmeyer flask at the mouth of a
1000-barrel brewkettle. The solution was labeled 22.1 % W/V.

Gypsum is added with several of  the hop additions (from large plastic bins,
a hundred pounds or so at a time). I inquired why gypsum would be necessary
with calcium-rich Lake Ontario water (carbonate hard), and was told that the
gypsum prevented buildup of calcium oxalate (beerstone). It must work, as
there was none present.

Hops are added in several additions, and about 8-10 varieties are blended to
smooth out variations in different types, and even field-to-field
variations. A figure of 10-11 IBU was quoted, so they must have very
sensitive palates. Speaking of which, many of the employees double as
tasters. Beer is tasted at many stages, but no taster is asked to do more
than two samples a day. Augie is regarded as a tasting god.

The mystery of the air stripper was explained to me by the brewmaster. The
hot wort is sent along a set of tubes in a laminar flow regime. The air flow
strips DMS and other sulfur compounds, but does not mix with the gently
flowing beer enough to cause HSA. They take HSA *very* seriously, and notice
it right away. It is a dead giveaway that they have a leak, for one thing.
It also ruins the shelf life, to paraphrase the brewmaster. Also, it happens
very quickly, so a short hot air exposure is bad.

They are very fussy about the rice, insisting on its freshness. It costs as
much or more that the malt, depending on market variances. The beechwood
aging is actually accomplished on small slats (some may remember from St.
Louis, at the MCAB). They pre-treat the wood to remove tannins, and wash it
with very hot water between uses. It is a lot of messing around, and they
feel it is worth it. No good substitute has been discovered. Also, the wood
disintegrates after only a few uses.

Here's a nugget: Budweiser and Michelob (plus a few others) are kraeusened!
Also, rice is used in Bud and Michelob, but corn grits are used in Natural
Light.

Fermentation takes place in 5 days (primary), followed by centrifugation of
the yeast, 21 days on beechwood (in tanks large enough to fit my house), and
another few days in the final bright beer tank, which has some cute name
that eludes me now.

Anyway, that's about all that leaps to mind. My thanks to those at A-B who
were so gracious and informative.

I hope this is interesting to others, as well.

Cheers,

Peter Garofalo
Syracuse, NY



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