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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Water Softener Using Potassium Chloride ("John & Joy Vaughn")
  Re: Apparent Rennerian ("John & Joy Vaughn")
  Beer Pouches ("Jeff Stith")
  Re: Anheuser-Busch Information (Teresa Knezek)
  Re: Beer Engine correction (Teresa Knezek)
  heat produced by fermentation (Andrew Larkin)
  RE: Blowoff affect flavor ("Mcgregor, Arthur, Mr, OSD-ATL")
  Re: cleaning aeration stones (Fred L Johnson)
  Bubble Gum (Michael Hartsock)
  Re: Splitting the Brew Day into Two Days ("Joel Plutchak")
  A-B (Michael Hartsock)
  Re: cleaning aeration stones (Wendy & Reuben Filsell)
  RE: tap-a-draft v party pig (beerbuddy)
  Re: Blowoff affect flavor?? (Jeff Renner)
  RE: bubblegum flavors (beerbuddy)
  Re: 1056 vs. WLP001 (Jeff Renner)
  Raising pH in dark beers (james ray)
  White labs 001 use (homebre973)
  Re: Anheuser-Busch Information (Jeff Renner)
  Minikegs for beer engines & heated fermentation chambers (LJ Vitt)
  Re: Orval (Jeff Renner)
  No-sparge lessons learned (Kevin Crouch)
  Incandescent Light Causes Skunkiness? ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  RE: Heating/Cooling Questions (Donald and Melissa Hellen)
  Lagering Box (Donald and Melissa Hellen)
  Cute Tank Names ("Peter Garofalo")


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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:32:49 -0900
From: "John & Joy Vaughn" <hogbrew at mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Water Softener Using Potassium Chloride

On 11/20/2002 at 10:39 AM Jeff Renner wrote:

>John Vaughn <hogbrew at mtaonline.net> writes from Wasilla, AK
>
>>I had a water softener installed and am using potassium
>>chloride to recharge the resin bed. ... Can I use this water for 
>>brewing?  I assume I will need to add calcium for the mash.
>
>Probably not.  It depends on what the anions are in the water - the 
>negatively charged ones like sulfate (SO4-2), bicarbonate (HCO3-1), 
>chloride Cl-1).  You exchanged one cation (positively charged), 
>potassium (K+) for one or two others that caused water hardness, 
>calcium (Ca+2) and magnesium (Mg+2).  You apparently also got rid of 
>some iron, not sure which form.
>
>So, if you still have bicarbonate, you shouldn't brew with it, at 
>least not pale beers.  The alkalinity of bicarbonate (often expressed 
>as carbonate for convenience) needs to be balanced by the acidity of 
>dark grains.
>
>I'm not sure what high levels of potassium might do in water.
>
>As John Palmer writes in his book How to Brew (available online at 
>http://www.howtobrew.com/), "In general, you should never use 
>softened water for mashing."
>
>You might try aerating, boiling and decanting your water.  That's 
>what I do.  It precipitates out the bicarbonate as calcium carbonate 
>(limestone) and judging by the tan color of the precipitate, it also 
>takes out the small amount of iron I have.
>
>Then you would add calcium as gypsum or CaCl2.
>
>Jeff
>-- 
>Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
>"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943

Thanks Jeff,

I expect chloride to be present.  The water was medium hard but the main
problem was the clear-water iron.  You don't see it until it has time to
react with air and oxidize.  The water was slightly acidic (pH 6.8) before
the softener was installed.  I used an old ColorPhast strip tonight and it
came out at 5.7.  I hope that is wrong or my plumbing is in trouble.
Obviously, I need to have a water analysis done.  Since this will cost me
money (it is my own well), what do I need to ask the lab to run?

A.J., are you there?

John Vaughn
Wasilla, Alaska




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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:50:27 -0900
From: "John & Joy Vaughn" <hogbrew at mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Apparent Rennerian

Dave,

The internet is a wonderful tool/toy/resource/reference/waster-of-time.  We
live in an amazing era.

Thanks to all on the HBD for the spirit of sharing knowledge.

John Vaughn
Wasilla, Alaska


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 11/20/2002 at 7:22 PM Dave and Joan King wrote:

>>From the 11/18 post, John & Joy Vaughn are from
>Wasilla, AK
>[2938, 320] Apparent Rennerian
>
>I have to say, that's a mighty big Apparent Rennerian !  I see it doesn't
>matter much if you're a long way from the center of Home Brewing, isn't
the
>internet great!
>
>Dave King, the Hop Head from BIER
>Endicott, NY
>[396, 89] Apparent Rennerian





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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:03:01 -0600
From: "Jeff Stith" <jstith at kc.rr.com>
Subject: Beer Pouches

Something that may be of interest to anyone who might also backpack as I
do...

Saw in Backpacker Magazine today that a company in Alaska manufactures
oxygen proof, light proof pouches for "bottling" beer.  They come in several
sizes including 16 and 22 ounce and fold down flat.  They also sell the
sealer for them.  The advantage is less weight and, when empty, take up
little room at all in the pack.  Supposedly the beer also keeps longer than
in glass. I emailed them today asking if they cater just to microbreweries
(as the info seemed to lean towards) or if they were available to small home
brewers.  I'll let you all know what I find out.

Has anyone heard of these pouches or even used them?  I know the "purist"
might have a problem with it but I'd love to kick back with a couple of
homebrews in the back country while gazing out over some awesome scenery
after a long day under a pack!

Jeff S.
Lee's Summit, Missouri

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

 -Edmund Burke




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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:42:07 -0900
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com>
Subject: Re: Anheuser-Busch Information

On or thereabout 11/21/02, Peter Garofalo spoke thusly:
>Anyway, that's about all that leaps to mind. My thanks to those at A-B who
>were so gracious and informative.
>
>I hope this is interesting to others, as well.

Very interesting... did you have a chance to taste some "brand new" 
product? I'm not a big Bud fan, to say the least, but the Czech Bud 
isn't a bad beer at all...

After your description, I'm wondering if all the care and attention 
you describe is producing a decent beer that's bottled in good shape, 
but ruined during storage and transport...
- -- 
:: Teresa ::
http://www.mivox.com/

"It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who
gets the credit."
	-- Harry S. Truman


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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:48:06 -0900
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com>
Subject: Re: Beer Engine correction

Aigh! My delete key is possessed... this paragraph in the last digest 
was *supposed* to read like so:

>With the beer engine system, it appears all you need on the keg end 
>of the deal is a hose to hook up to the beer engine. The diagrams 
>always show a full size keg laid on its side, with the tap on one 
>edge of one end to maximize gravity feed. While those gravity feed 
>mini kegs are meant to sit upright, since the built-in tap's at the 
>bottom, I don't see why it wouldn't work.

There is the possible issue of "overkill" with this whole set-up, but 
I think that's offset by the outrageous "cool factor" of having a 
beer engine installed on my kitchen look-through counter. :-)
- -- 
:: Teresa ::
http://www.mivox.com/

"It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who
gets the credit."
	-- Harry S. Truman


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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:56:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Larkin <aj_larkin at yahoo.com>
Subject: heat produced by fermentation

How much heat does fermentation produce?
ie. if I perfectly insulated 5 gallons of
1.060 wort and it fermented to 1.010, how
much would the temperature increase?




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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:27:19 -0500
From: "Mcgregor, Arthur, Mr, OSD-ATL" <Arthur.Mcgregor at osd.mil>
Subject: RE: Blowoff affect flavor

Hi All,

In HBD #4097 Brendan Oldham asked about blowoff effects on beer flavor ...

A few years back I was fermenting 5 gallons in 5 gal glass carboys which
required a blowoff tube.  I used a sanitized large 1.25  inch (?) OD vinyl
tubing that went from the carboy neck into a sanitized 1 gal plastic jug
(e.g., milk/water jug with top cut off), and enough water to keep the
blowoff tube submerged.  On a number of occasions I had 1/2 to 2/3 of a gal
of blowoff.  The blowoff beer ended up fermenting in the plastic jug, just
like the larger batch in the carboy.  I was concerned about losing all that
beer and about its effect on the final flavor of the batch of beer.

I collected the blowoff beer and treated it as a separate batch.  I
transferred the blowoff beer to a secondary with an air lock, let it
complete its work then bottled it and compared it to a bottle from the
original batch.  As a note, I brew with pellet hops and dump the wort (hop
pellets and all) into the primary and let it ferment, then leave the hop
pellets and trub at the bottom of the carboy when I transfer the beer from
the primary to the secondary.  The blowoff beer had a much higher bitterness
than the remainder of the batch, and was more watery, and appeared to have
lower alcohol content.  The higher bitterness stands to reason since the
blowoff contained a large amount of hop pellets.  Some folks may disagree
with this line of reasoning, since hop bitterness is only supposed get
extracted during boiling, but I can taste more bitterness in beer that I
have dry hopped even though dry hopping is not supposed to add bitterness.
YMMV :^)

After brewing a few batches and saving the blowoff beer for the experiment,
I ended up adding the blowoff beer in with the remainder of the batch when I
transferred to the secondary.  I eventually went back to doing primaries in
6 1/2 gallon plastic buckets for ease of  cleaning.  I will probably do
another experiment with the glass carboy as a primary to see how much of a
difference the glass makes in the beer's flavor versus the plastic buckets.

Hoppy Brewing,
Art McGregor
Lorton, Virginia
[424.1, 123.3] Rennerian


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:12:36 -0500
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Re: cleaning aeration stones

Reuben asks me in a recent post to the HBD:

> Well now Fred, that's the second suggestion you have shot down so how about
> just describing the materials methods and rationale you use so the rest of
> us can benefit from your critiques.

I did when I said "water and bases."  This is not news for the following
reasons so I didn't expand on the statement, but since Reuben asked...

The cleaning agents typically sold for cleaning equipment in the brewhouse
are water-based and often contain sodium hydroxide (called lye or caustic
soda) or potassium hydroxide (caustic potash) or some other fairly strong
base like trisodium phosphate. (I think this is part of the reason that
bleach solutions work pretty well.  They are usually highly alkaline.) I
think the big boys just have big barrels of sodium hydroxide for their
clean-in-place operations.

I've never purchased the commercial concoctions that are easily found in
your local homebrew store, but I'm pretty sure they typically use a strong
base (in the chemical sense) as their basis (in the construction sense).

Good old detergents work also!

Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 06:13:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Bubble Gum

About this bubble gum flavor, I have noticed it in my
traditional wheat beers, which I understand is to be a
desireable trait in this style but not in others.  Its
sort of a juicy fruit taste.  I think this is due to
fruit esters.  It is strong at bottling and then
mellows out to a light fruity essence.  I think it is
not a flavor, but instead an aroma (the two are
remarkably difficult to distinguish).  I would say
that it is a function of the yeast, but I use dried
ale yeast, usually nottingham's for everything.  I
think it is temperature and more importantly the use
of wheat in the brewing.  Any one agree or dissent?

michael



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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:22:11 +0000
From: "Joel Plutchak" <plutchak at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Splitting the Brew Day into Two Days

In HBD #4099, Scott <courtney03 at iquest.net> writes:
>I read something somewhere (BYO/Zymurgy) about
>splitting the brew day into two shorter segments, i.e. mash and
>sparge one day/evening, and boil/pitch the next day or days).
>Has anyone tried this technique?  Are there any detrimental
>effects of storing the runoff overnight/several nights?

   I do this several times per year-- mash and sparge in
the evening, then get up and continue with the boil the next
morning. It works fine, and allows me to fit my brew day to
the constraints of real life (and still get sleep ;-).
   I've had no problem with off flavors due to bacteria.
However, I've also intentionally soured wort, and based
on my experiences would recommend that you not wait more
than overnight. If you're still concerned with that and
it'll make you feel better, heat the wort as you collect
it and make sure it gets above about 160F before covering
and letting sit overnight.  That should kill off (or at
least highly discourage) wort spoilage bacteria.

>I'm also thinking that this technique may be only marginally >time-saving 
>since set-up and tear-down times are now present
>on both days.

   There's zero time savings at best-- you still have to do
everything you'd do otherwise.  But set-up and tear-down in
my case isn't an issue since I set up in the evening, leave
up during the night, and get up and continue the next morning.
No extra set-up or tear-down.  (Though depending on the schedule
of the rest of your household they may have to work around you
a bit.)  You can do some time-sharing as usual; on split brew
days I get up and turn the stove on under the collected wort,
then go shower/shave/etc and have breakfast while it gets up
to boiling.  But as I mentioned above it's more a way of
fitting your brew day into your life.

   Have fun!
- --
Joel Plutchak
Preaching what I practice in East-Central Illinois




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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 06:28:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: A-B

As a missourian, I know that you don't say anything
bad about A-B, especially in the east part of the
state, Frankly, everyone should know that if you are
in St. Louis, you'd best not order a miller or a Coors
(not that anyone here would).  The reason for my post
is to ask if anyone else had purchased the michelob
christmas taster pack.  There are two all-malt lagers
included that are quite excellent.  Their Marzen is
quite remarkably good.  As far as mass markets beer,
its a shame they don't sell it year round.

michael



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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:30:41 +0800
From: Wendy & Reuben Filsell <filsell at myplace.net.au>
Subject: Re: cleaning aeration stones



> From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:12:36 -0500
> To: <filsell at myplace.net.au>, Homebrew Digest <homebrew at hbd.org>
> Subject: Re: cleaning aeration stones
> 
> This is not news for the following
> reasons so I didn't expand on the statement, but since Reuben asked...

I asked because not everyone on this list is a chemist "water and bases"
leaves a lot of ambiguity.
> 
> The cleaning agents typically sold for cleaning equipment in the brewhouse
> are water-based and often contain sodium hydroxide (called lye or caustic
> soda) or potassium hydroxide (caustic potash) or some other fairly strong
> base like trisodium phosphate. (I think this is part of the reason that
> bleach solutions work pretty well.  They are usually highly alkaline.) I
> think the big boys just have big barrels of sodium hydroxide for their
> clean-in-place operations.
So how does that apply to us ? quick wash and rinse or overnight soak?
> 
> I've never purchased the commercial concoctions that are easily found in
> your local homebrew store, but I'm pretty sure they typically use a strong
> base (in the chemical sense) as their basis (in the construction sense).
> 
> Good old detergents work also!
Do you use aeration/carbonation stones Fred?
Reuben.
W.A.

"In theory, theory and practice are the same, except in practice"



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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:05:28 +0000
From: beerbuddy at attbi.com
Subject: RE: tap-a-draft v party pig

<<<<<<  One problem I do
have is that I feel you really need two people to fill the Tap-A-Draft
bottles since they do not have flat bottoms to sit on.  The last thing I
want to do is drop and spill one of those.  One person supports the
bottle while the other works the filler and sets it aside.

 - --
Take care,
Mark >>>>>

I also use the tap-a-draft, and really enjoy it. The shortening of bottling day 
is great, and it's a nice thing to have in the fridge. I typically use two tap-
a-draft bottles and 10 to 12 16oz for each 5 gallon batch, depending on the 
size of the trub. I agree, one of the hard things is that you do need an extra 
hand to hold up the bottle while filling, thank God for supportive wives 
(supporting filling bottles as well as adictive hobbies)! I think this could be 
corrected with an easily built stand, but I haven't had time to fashion one 
yet.  I have found that the cartridges will generally last through each 6L 
bottle, if it is finished within about a week. Any longer and you need to 
replace the cartridges (which are available reasonably inexpensively at the 
grocery store). 

As for the concern that it would lose pressure after the height of the mouth, 
the CO2 has enough pressure to push the beer out, until the cartridges are near 
empty. I was a little concerned that the small pickup tube would pickup 
sediment and clog, but after about 5 bottles of even a heavy sediment chocolate 
stout, have not seen that happen. I've also tried force carbonating a cider, 
per their suggestion of giving it a week then replacing the cartridges. The 
carbonation was just enough for a cider, but would not provide enough, IMHO, 
for even the least carbonated beer style. 

Only two things I see as negatives: The first is the bottles are fairly 
expensive, and pretty easily damaged. If you fill the bottle with 
water/cleanser, and turn it upside down to empty, the force of the water will 
suck the sides in. I am on the lookout for alternatives, and think the tap uses 
a fairly standard mouth, so hopefully something else will show up. The other 
negative I see is that the tap is fairly hard to clean, especially the integral 
small pickup hose (I'm guessing the ID is about 1/16") with a weight on the end 
to keep it at the bottom. 

The above said though, I really enjoy the tap-a-draft system for a convenient 
way to bottle, which saves time and space. 

Timothy
North Bend, WA
beerbuddy at attbi.com


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:02:54 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Blowoff affect flavor??

"Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>, who must be in the Tampa 
area judging by his address, wrote:

>My current batch rode its krausen *right* up
>to the rim of the neck... geesh.
>http://tilt.largo.fl.us/dbbc/dbbc012ferment.jpg

Actually, that is perfect.  The "braunheffe" (the brown sticky crud) 
all sticks to the glass that way (as your photo shows) and is 
removed.  Big breweries (I think A/B is one) have designed their 
fermenters so the kraeusen rises to the top and it sticks to the 
"ceiling".

Whether or not to skim or otherwise remove the braunheffe is an oft 
discussed subject on HBD, and has never beer fully resolved, but I 
like to do it.  It seems to smooth out the bitterness and make it 
cleaner, less harsh.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:13:16 +0000
From: beerbuddy at attbi.com
Subject: RE: bubblegum flavors

Thanks to everyone who replied on and off list to this topic. The most common 
suggestion was that it was related to yeasts, specifically belgian ale yeasts, 
and that temperature probably has something to do with the intensity of the 
flavor. 

When I asked, I wasn't looking to recreate the flavor, just to help train my 
pallette to understand the intricacies of where certain flavors come from. I 
enjoyed the beer for an evening, but think it would become overbearing if I 
actually had 5G of the stuff!

Thanks again.

Timothy
North Bend, WA
beerbuddy at attbi.com


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:17:57 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: 1056 vs. WLP001

Apparently, both of these yeasts are from the same source originally. 
It is the old Ballantine's yeast, and is the one used by Sierra 
nevada.  I believe SN got it from a yeast bank.  Wyeast and White 
labs may have got theirs from the same source or elsewhere, maybe 
even from a bottle of SNPA.  Who knows?

But as the FAQ from WhiteLabs says (below), even yeasts from the same 
source may diverge.

  From http://www.whitelabs.com/faq.html :

"Do you have a map between your yeast strains and others?

"No, we do not have a direct "correlation chart". Some of are strains 
are similar to those offered by other companies, but some are 
different. Even for the strains with similar origin, they have been 
obtained at different times from different locations. They are stored 
different, grown in different conditions and different media. Each 
yeast strain produced by White Labs has been carefully selected from 
breweries worldwide, and further selected for advantageous brewing 
characteristics. In general, yeast strains of similar origin exhibit 
similar, but not exact properties. In our descriptions of the yeast 
strains, we describe the area of origin and the flavor profile 
parameters of each strain."

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:41:19 -0800 (PST)
From: james ray <jnjnmiami at yahoo.com>
Subject: Raising pH in dark beers

Jim Dunlap,Woodinville WA writes:

For the darker beers I still need to figure out how to
raise the pH some.
Is it more effective to raise the pH with CaCO3 to the
base water first or
mash water?  Are there other methods?

I had a similar problem with the relatively soft water
in Miami.  I used baking soda.  Be careful because a
little goes a long way.  I found one ounce worked well
for a 5 BBL batch.  I treated only the mash.

Teresa Knezek asks about using mini kegs with a beer
engine.  They should work fine.  I have used firkins
as well as corny kegs.  Cornies are easy to use by
just venting the top.
 
James Ray
Montgomery, AL
Formerly at Titanic Brewing, Miami FL






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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:11:36 -0500
From: homebre973 at mindspring.com
Subject: White labs 001 use

I just used the pitchable tube of this yeast for an APA, and it seems to have
performed quite well.  I would like to use the yeast layer in the secondary to
brew a different type of beer.  Does anyone have suggestions on what other
types of ales this yeast would be good for?   I am leaning towards some type
of British Ale.  Thanks



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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:21:33 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Anheuser-Busch Information


Thanks to Peter Garofalo <pgarofa1 at twcny.rr.com> of Syracuse, NY for 
his report on the Anheuser-Busch brewery, in Baldwinsville, NY.

A few thoughts:

>The mystery of the air stripper was explained to me by the brewmaster. The
>hot wort is sent along a set of tubes in a laminar flow regime. The air flow
>strips DMS and other sulfur compounds, but does not mix with the gently
>flowing beer enough to cause HSA. They take HSA *very* seriously, and notice
>it right away. It is a dead giveaway that they have a leak, for one thing.
>It also ruins the shelf life, to paraphrase the brewmaster. Also, it happens
>very quickly, so a short hot air exposure is bad.

A-B, as you mention, is very fussy to keep the quality of their beers 
as high as possible at all times.  Recently I read something 
somewhere about a new brewery with either smaller kettle doors, or 
perhaps none, or maybe just that someone thought they should be kept 
closed when they weren't adding hops.  Anyway, it was found that the 
beer changed, and they had to add doors or keep them open.

This made me thing of what the origin of this strange wort stripper 
that we saw in St. Louis and Pete saw in NY, where the hot wort flows 
in a spiral down the inside of tubes while hot air is blown up.  I 
wonder if this may have been added when/if they replaced old style 
Baudelot coolers (see photo of old ones in Czechoslovakia at 
http://www.beer-kozel.cz/pvp46a.htm ).  In a Baudelot cooler, hot 
wort flows over rows of pipes filled with cold water.  The advantage 
of these was that they aerated the wort once it cooled.  (Perhaps 
again, with smooth flow, hot wort isn't aerated?).

I can well imagine that when new closed wort chillers were 
introduced, the flavor may well have changed for the worse.

>Here's a nugget: Budweiser and Michelob (plus a few others) are kraeusened!
>Also, rice is used in Bud and Michelob, but corn grits are used in Natural
>Light.

I heard that when they introduced Busch, they went to great lengths 
to keep the house character, which means no corn flavor.  I suspect 
the air stripping may play a part in this.

>the final bright beer tank, which has some cute name
>that eludes me now.

The government tank?

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:06:31 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Minikegs for beer engines & heated fermentation chambers


Teresa writes about hooking a beer engine up to a mini-keg.

This will be an interesting experiment.

One product you should look at to give you an option to think 
about - Philtap - http://www.listermann.com/Store/Details.asp?ID=573
It is a CO2 system, but I think the picture on the web site will
give you some ideas.  

I think if you leave the CO2 cartridge out and have a beer engine 
attached to the hose instead of the picnic tap, you can do what
you suggesting.

I think hooking a hose to that built in twist tap that pulls out of
the side of the newer mini-kegs would be difficult.

Teresa, you will need to inform us what you end up doing and how it
comes out.

I know a few people who use pins (they hold about 5.5 gals) with
beer engines.   They only do it for large parties.  My answer
up till now for mini-kegs is the air pump tap.


- ------------------------------

Todd and John asked questions about heating a box to have a temp
controlled place to ferment.  One for ales, the other for lagers.

I have seen a few of these.  Two were made from plywood lined
with 2 inches of Styrofoam insulation and heated with a light bulb.
The light bulb is in a can to keep the light affect down.
The can has holes to let heat out.  One had a biscuit fan blowing air
through the can.  You can get one carboy into it.  A thermostat
controls the light bulb.

I have one made out of a otherwise useless chest freezer.
The heat source is also a light bulb, but is a wooden box, with 
a biscuit fan.  it will hold 3 or 4 carboys, depending on the 
carboy size.

I have used in in the garage in the winter to do lager primary 
fermentations, ales in winter when the basement is rather cool,
and to hold bottles at a warm temp for bottle conditioning.



=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:39:12 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Orval

Paul Edwards <pedwards at iquest.net> asks:

>Original Gravity:  13.4 deg Plato
>Color:             22 EBC
>Bitterness:        32 EBC
>
>(can somebody translate these last two to SRM and IBU?)

EBC color is close enough to double SRM for government work, but I 
don't recall that Orval is as dark as 11 SRM, which is the same as 
Bass pale ale.

EBC bitterness is the same as IBU - ppm of isomerized alpha acid.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:39:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching at yahoo.com>
Subject: No-sparge lessons learned

Stuart (zzlay at yahoo.com) shares his experience with
his first all grain and asks?
>Are there other brewers who regularly no-sparge? 
Lessons learned?

Stuart,  I must say that breaking the chains of
controlled-sparge brewing was the best thing to happen
to me since I began All-grain brewing many years ago. 
I usually brew with a friend, swill plenty of brew,
enjoy a puro or two, and invariably screw up the
delicate sparge balance.  I didn't know that it was
having such an impact on my beers until I tried my
first no-sparge brew. Combining this with a better
understanding of water chemistry brought my quality to
a new level.  

The biggest hurdle to get over for me was the
deep-seated misconception that thin mashes favor beta
amylase and thin beers.  I don't know if it was the
texts I read or my comprehension, but I had
oversimplified it profoundly. The relationship that is
most important to consider is between thickness and
temperature. The lifespan of beta-amylase is shortened
significantly in thinner mashes at higher
temperatures.  Thus, the thin mashes necessary for
no-sparge brewing can actually lead to excessive
dextrins in the wort if temperatures are not kept
under control.  Single-temp infusion mashes are more
problematic,  however, as step mashes generally
provide better control over maltose/dextrin balance. I
am not going to pretend to understand all the
relationships of temperature, thickness, and pH,  but
I urge you to research it a bit (if you haven't
already) and take it into consideration.  

Also,  when making higher gravity brews,  don't be
afraid to do mini-sparges if you run out of room in
your tun.  What I mean is that if you can't fit all
your sparge water into your mash/lauter tun all at
once, it won't hurt to top up your tun as it drains
down a bit, or even control-sparge the remainder. I
tried this with a Dopplelbock recently and got high
marks for efficiency.

Kevin Crouch
Vancouver, Washington, USA




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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:45:06 -0800
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: Incandescent Light Causes Skunkiness?

Hi all,
  I always assumed that incandescent light caused skunkiness, but I 
recently read something that indicated this may not be the case.  
Is there something scientific that has proven (or disproven) the 
lightstuck affect of incandescent light on beer?  Or is it just "common 
knowledge" pass from brewer to brewer?
Thanks
Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA
[1978.7, 275.3] Apparent Rennerian


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:03:21 -0500
From: Donald and Melissa Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net>
Subject: RE: Heating/Cooling Questions

Todd Kenna asks about heating/cooling controls . . .

The Ranco temperature controller will switch from heating to cooling
mode, has variable temperature differential, and will read in degrees
F or C. It also has a digital readout. 

For cooling, you hook up your refrigerator to it (you wire it yourself
or pay extra for one pre-wired) and place the thermal sensor in the
fridge. When it shuts off the fridge, it shuts off power to the light
as well, a small inconvenience. A temperature differential of 5
degrees F (range it will allow the temp to vary before cycling on the
compressor) works well without wearing out the compressor. 

To heat, you have to supply a heater or element of some sort and you
put the sensor in the box or container, plug your heat source into it
and let it go. You could use the fridge as your container and a couple
of light bulbs as the heat source, but you'll have to shield your brew
form the light with a dark plastic garbage bag (or several, depending
on the light transparency of the plastic) or something else.

Do a web search for Ranco controller and you will find some sources. I
bought mine at my local homebrew store. He price-matched an online
supplier for me.

Don Hellen



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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:28:45 -0500
From: Donald and Melissa Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net>
Subject: Lagering Box

John Misrahi asked about making a lagering box . . .

Hi all I have a new project in mind. Rather than making room inside
for an extra fridge, i'd like to build a lagering box that takes
advantage of the natural cold and just has a heater to keep the beer
from getting too cold.

I have a few thoughts, but basically i'm thinking of some kind of
plywood box with styrafoam or maybe fiberglass insulation. Just a
simple hinge or latch to keep raccoons out ;-)

Good start. Even a cardboard box will work, depending on how cold it
gets where you live.

For the heating part

(a) light bulb painted black. don't know if it can generate enough
heat, but
i think in a small insulated enclosed space, it might be able to do
it.

No. I see problems with that, not the least of which is premature
light bulb failure. Light bulbs as heating elements--yes. They work
well, and I've used them myself in my own lagering box.

No doubt you are concerned about the light affecting the beer. YOu can
get around that with black plastic (as in garbage bags) thick enough
to keep out the light. I used three cheap black garbage bags
upside-down with a hole in the bags for the airlock to stick through.
You can add a separate cover over the airlock if you wish but you want
to be able to observe airlock activity easily. 


or
(b) small electric space heater

I tried that and my thermostat didn't regulate the temperature in the
box as well with the heater. I felt like I had a fire hazard in there
(it would get really hot in the box before it would shut off the
heat), so I went back to light bulbs--two of them so if one failed you
still would have enough heat to keep your temperature set point.

I figure it will need some kind of controller...i know they sell
gadgets you can plug a fridge into to maintain lagering temperatures.
Could it work like this - sort of in reverse?

 I used a baseboard heater thermostat control and wired it with a
cord, and a plug for the wall outlet, and an outlet on the other cord
form the thermostat to the light bulbs. 

However, that was before I bought my Ranco controller for the fridge.
It has both a heating and a cooling mode--one or the other at one
time--and it would work better. However, it's about 7 times as
expensive as a baseboard heater thermostat. 

It's up to you how you mount your light bulbs, but keep them away from
anything that might get too hot by being too close to them. You don't
want a fire. It would ruin your beer.

Don Hellen



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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:15:28 -0500
From: "Peter Garofalo" <pgarofa1 at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: Cute Tank Names

Thanks to a surreptitious HBD reader, I have remembered the name of the
finishing beer tank at Anheuser-Busch: it's called the Schoene tank. As I
only heard it and didn't see it written, it sounded like a woman's name,
which spawned the "cute" reference. It is pronounced like "Shana".

As for the wort stripper, I saw it first in St. Louis, but we weren't shown
the one in Baldwinsville. The brewer did make a comment to the effect that
it was the largest in the world, or maybe the largest in A-B. I don't think
there was much to see, as it may well have been a closed system (it would be
if I designed it).

I hope more of the homebrew crown gains some respect for large breweries,
especially ones so committed to quality. I regard A-B as a first-class
outfit, top to bottom.

Cheers,

Pete Garofalo
Syracuse, NY



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