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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Bottles in Colorado (m20502)
  Adding sugar?? (Jason Goldman)
  where to find bottles alternative (rogerl)
  steriliziing bottles (Pete Soper)
  Re: stuff on the walls (rutgers!cs.rochester.edu!olson)
  bottle sterilization (sp?) (ephram)
  Re: hard cider (dw)
  malt extract prices (arthure)
  A variety of topics... (CRF)
  Saran Wrap and Bottles (Jim Haselmaier )
  Chimay Ale. (KARLIN)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com


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Date: Tue, 3 Jan 89 08:57:11 EST
From: m20502 at d82vms.mitre.org
Subject: Bottles in Colorado


 	Response to R. Stern about bottles in Co

	Although I don't live in Colorado, I have done a bit of climbing
there. In my travels, I seem to recall that Coors came in long neck 
bottles  just like Bud does in Massachusetts. These data points are 1.5
years old. The towns were Buena Vista, and Colorado Springs. When I was
up north we bought Boulder Ale in stores.

	Matt Harris

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Date: Tue, 3 Jan 89 07:01:59 mst
From: Jason Goldman <hp-lsd!jdg>
Subject: Adding sugar??
Full-Name: Jason Goldman


I bought ingredients for my second batch this past weekend.  I got a kit
for Laaglaander's Irish Stout (chosen fairly at random).  Reading the
instructions, I noticed that it said to add sugar to the malt before
fermentation.  The little bit of reading that I've done has suggested that
this is not a good idea, because sugar can give a 'cidery' taste to the
beer.  This last was in some of the stuff I got from Williams when I got
my kit, so I don't know how true and/or noticable it is.  The Laaglaander
kit came with advanced instructions as well.  These said that you could
eliminate sugar (in the fermentation) if you used two cans of malt.  Is
this worthwhile.  From what I've read, I'd say yes (probably), but I'd
like some expert advice.

Thanks,

Jason Goldman
hplabs!hp-lsd!jdg


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Date: Tue, 3 Jan 89 09:56:20 EST
From: rogerl at Think.COM
Subject: where to find bottles alternative

Ridchard Stern,
Dick Dunn
Roger Rose
et al

Have you ever considered champagne bottles.  Yes, they're a bit larger
(25.4 oz) but they certainly can handle the pressure.  Champagne can
reach 90P.S.I..  And they have a nice shoulder at the lip, so normal
bottle caps work nicely.  If you frequent a restaurant or live near a
place that has one of those Sunday Morning Champagne Brunchs, you may
have a ready source of large bottles.  If you frequent a place and
getting to know the staff it makes it easier to ask for their empties.
This past New Years Party at a small local restaurant netted me 2
cases.  The current batch of Gingered Ale in the fermentor is destine
for these critters.

Although, I can not profess being the orginator of this idea.  I
believe I picked this idea up out of a recent issue of Zymurgy.

Roger Locniskar
rogerl at think.com

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Date: Tue, 3 Jan 89 11:35:36 est
From: Pete Soper <soper at maxzilla.encore.com>
Subject: steriliziing bottles

After I described how I use my oven to sterilize bottles, Dick Dunn warned
of weakening bottles this way. I respect Dick very much and since he
obviously has more experience I'd like everyone to forget this idea.
I don't want to cause anyone to burst their bottles.

I don't have labels on my bottles so I guess my marriage is safe Rob 8^).

With respect to Rob's question about Saran Wrap, I use it for sealing the
inch or so gap between my Bruheat lid and immersion wort chiller while
the wort is cooling. I was curious about just how clean this stuff is.

--Pete Soper

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Date: Tue, 3 Jan 89 10:14:18 EST
From: hplabs!rutgers!cs.rochester.edu!olson
Subject: Re: stuff on the walls



Somebody (jay h?) wrote:
>One question a customer had last night which I couldn't answer.
>Has anyone ever seen yeast settle out on the sides, yes sides, of a bottle.
>This guy used corona bottles and said the yeast was clinging to the sides
>as well as the bottom. I have never seen this before, but i don't use
>clear bottles so if it had happened i wouldn't have known.

  My only attempt at brewing with lager yeast (dry, Edme I think) produced
a very odd deposit on the walls of the bottles.  The recipe was
TCJoHB's "hordeaceous Dutch delite", ie 2 cans of Laaglander light hopped
extract, water and yeast (how's that for a detailed recipe?).  I bottled in
my large collection of used Molson bottles.  In addition to the usual yeast
layer at the bottom, after 5-6 weeks I began to see lots of little blobs on
the walls. They were the size and color of dried yeast granules.  Spinning
the bottles shook the blobs off the walls, but to my surprise they didn't
settle out.  Instead, they hung suspended near the walls.  By careful pouring
I was able to keep them out of my glasses, and (with some trepidation) went
on drinking.  The flavor btw was fine if a bit boring -- nice malt sweetness,
lots of esters, but insufficiently bitter and (of course) lacking any hop
character.  At the time I blamed the deposit on the yeast.  Now that I think
of it, though, the last few bottles (at 12 weeks or so) gushed quite badly,
so there probably was a bacterial infection involved as well.  I've made
continuous small improvements in my sanitation procedures, and haven't seen
anything like it since -- but I've steered clear of lagers, so who knows.

  That leads to a question -- we know that lager yeasts are slow starters,
prefer colder temperatures et cetera.  Do they have other behavioral 
peculiarities that are worth talking about?  Do they precipitate differently?
leave the same color guck in the bottom of the fermenter?  smell the same?
etc, etc,

  curiously yours,
  Tom Olson

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Date: Tue, 3 Jan 89 09:20:51 PST
From: ephram at violet.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: bottle sterilization (sp?)

First let me express my appreciation for this newsletter being here.  My local
homebrew store seems a little "shifty" and always wants to sell me a solution.
It will be nice having someplace else to go.

	Well here's my question.  After I chlorinate my bottles I am supposed
to rinse them out.  Is tap water OK for this process?  Should I boil up
(yet more) water for this task?  Can I just let them drip dry?

thanx

We must prevent those commies from compromising the integrity of our 
precious bodily fluids.      -Gen. Jack D. Ripper
Ephram Cohen                              ephram at violet.berkeley.edu
466 44th St.  #1                          3210 Tolman Hall
Oakland, CA 94609                         Berkeley, CA  94720

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Date: 3 Jan 89 15:11:40 EST (Tuesday)
From: dw <Wegeng.Henr at Xerox.COM>
Subject: Re: hard cider

In my previous message on this subject, I typo'ed the following sentence:

"...cider does not contain sugar so that, when it is fermented, there will
be enough alcohol to prevent it from spoiling."

What I meant to say was that "...cider does not contain *enough* sugar..."
Cider does contain sugar, but not enough to result in 9-10% alcohol after
fermentation is complete. Sorry if I confused anyone.

/Don

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Date: Tue, 3 Jan 89 13:20:55 PST
From: sco!arthure at ucscc.UCSC.EDU
Subject: malt extract prices

If malt extract prices are high, it might be because of
the drought.  Barley harvests have been off, and the barley
that is being harvested in affected areas is higher in protein
and lower in those crucial starches than is desireable for
making malt.  

So, we probably have a higher price per pound for barley,
combined with a lower yeild of fermentable sugars per pound
of grain, and more trub all around.

'88 won't go down in history as a great year for malt.

Also, in regard to Dave's comments about his cider:
most champagne probably tastes pretty cheap two months
after bottling ... You might want to give your cider
more time.

-arthur


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Date:     Tue, 3 Jan 89 18:03 EDT
From: <CRF%IFASGNV.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:  A variety of topics...

Hello, all!

I'm going to combine a whole bunch of things into one posting.  This
constitutes fair warning...

MEDOC:  There is most definitely a variety of wine by this name, but I've
never heard it applied to beer.  As to ingredients, preparation, etc.:  use
whatever malt you want (light, dark, DME, syrup).  For hops, I would lean
towards Fuggles or Hallertauer, but then I usually like those hops.  Northern
Brewer would be good for heavy bitterness, and for a very hoppy finish
American Cascades is always good.  Mostly, though, a few words about the
honey.

DON'T USE "SUE BEE" or any other blended-to-death honey!!  Go to a health food
store, or some other kind of store which sells raw honey in bulk, and use
that.  The type of honey used will most definitely affect the final flavor.
Orange blossom and clover honeys are very mild and pleasant; others such as
gallberry are more acid but still delicious.  One of the best honeys I ever
came across was some avocado honey a friend gave me!  When adding honey to a
hot liquid, stir *constantly!*  If the honey has a chance to hit the bottom of
a hot pot, it will caramelize and scorch.  When cooking honey, a frothy scum
forms, which needs to be skimmed off.  For this reason, you might want to
dissove the honey in some boiling water prior to adding the malt.  Finally,
plan on aging your beer anywhere from 9 months to 2 years when using honey.
The structure of the sugar in honey almost inevitably requires a lengthy
period of aging.

SAKE:  Am now trying to procure a recipe for Mr. Haberman.

SARAN WRAP/FOIL AND STERILITY:  I have always assumed these products to be
relatively bacteria-free, and used them accordingly with no problems.  I base
my assumption on the fact that both products are produced at high
temperatures, and are not of themselves suitable media for bacterial growth.

BOTTLE PROCUREMENT:  If one checks the dumpsters behind popular bars on Friday
and Saturday nights between midnight and 2 AM or so, one can often salvage
both bottles and cardboard cases.  It's kind of an icky way to get bottles,
but it _does_ work.  Also good are some brands of soda bottles, especially
"IBC" brand's root beer and sarsaparilla bottles.

CRATES:  Plastic milk crates, or better yet (but terribly rare now) the old
wooden ones, can be very useful for storing bottles.  If necessary, a plywood
bottom can be added to prevent sagging.  Other than that, everyone I know who
has wooden cases has built their own.

KEGS:  I have read and been told that kegged homebrew tends to have problems
with yeast stir-up when tapped.  I have avoided trying kegging on this basis.
Comments, anyone?

I thank one and all for their attention.

                                 Cher Feinstein
                                 "CRF at IFASGNV.BITNET"

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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 89 13:03:36 mst
From: Jim Haselmaier <jimh at hpfcspm>
Subject: Saran Wrap and Bottles
Full-Name:  Jim Haselmaier 

>>   On another subject could someone with a microscope and stains
>> tell me if Saran Wrap fresh off the roll is relatively bacteria free?
>Fascinating question! What do you plan to do with the saran wrap, if
>I might ask?

I have a friend who used to be a Production Engineer on a Saran Wrap
production line.  Once she saw how the stuff was made, she decided not
to use the first and last ten feet of any roll.  That doesn't say much
for the plastic that's in the middle; but it certainly is not intended
to be "sterile".

>>   When I prepare to bottle, I put my cleaned bottles in my oven and
>> bake them at 300 degrees for 30 minutes, then let them cool overnight.

When I bottled my most recent batch I changed my method slightly which
helped considerably in reducing my worrying.  

In general I get the most "nervous" when I bottle.  I would place the 
sterilized bottles on the kitchen floor uncovered.  There they would sit
until filled; usually for about 30 minutes.

Some friends told me they cover their bottles with paper towels ; which
seemed like a good idea.  But then I thought it would be even better to
cover the bottle with a sterilized new bottle cap.  When the bottle is
sterile, I put a new bottle cap on top and set it on the floor.  I only
remove the cap when I actually fill the bottle.

This process modification made me a much more sociable person (at least
according to my wife) during the bottling task.  ("Did you say you're 
going to bottle?  I think I'll leave the house for a while.")

Jim Haselmaier
Hewlett-Packard
jimh at hpfcspm.HP.COM


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Date: Thu,  5 Jan 89 10:18:59 EST
From: KARLIN at bnlcl1.bnl.gov
Subject: Chimay Ale.

I am a new subscriber who has a passion for a Trapist ale
from Belgium called Chimay Grand Reserve. I have not 
been able to find it anywhere for some time. I am located
on Long Island, NY and I've been in touch with the regional
distributer without luck. I managed to get the "last bottle" in
the Washington, DC area thanks to a friend, but that was a while 
ago. Chimay also makes other ales so I've been drinking their 
500th Anniversary Ale, but now I've exhausted that supply. 
Can anyone offer any tips?



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End of HOMEBREW Digest
************************

HOMEBREW Digest    Fri 06 January 1989


	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  adding sugar, rinseing bottles, kegs (Jeff Miller)
  Seasonal Beers (This PIZZA symbolizes my COMPLETE EMOTIONAL RECOVERY!!)
  comments on adding sugar (rogerl)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 6 Jan 89 14:11:07 CDT
From: Jeff Miller <jmiller at unix.eta.com>
Subject: adding sugar, rinseing bottles, kegs


I have a few responses to add this time so please bear with.

ADDED SUGAR:

Jason Goldman's question about adding sugar as suggested by a kit is probably
one of the more commonly debated queustions around and I have found myself
shifting on it recently.  I think a great many of us have always said use
malt (I usually substitute with a pale dry malt) instead of sugar.  Indeed if
you are a reader of zymurgy it seems to be the number one suggestion that they
offer.

Well in the last zymurgy they tried to brew beer using sugar and malt
and then do taste trials with the two types of beer along with a mixture of
two commercial beers (I forgot which ones).  It seemed that they were unable
to actually get a real concensus as to which method was best.  Since then
I have been paying attention to homebrew kits and noticed that there is an
incredible difference among them.  In particular I have started to notice
that some of the bigger buck kits I have been looking into ask for less
sugar to be added and that the can actually contains more sugars.  If anyone
has other opinions or observations please pipe up.

I haven't really ever tried brewing with lots of added sugar but a friend of
mine started with lots of sugar and ended up with a much lighter bodied beer.
His beer did have a cider taste and it was always strong in alcohol.  In
contrast my beer has usually been fairly heavy in body but also quite potent.
I have noticed that my friend is starting to brew with less sugar and the beer
seems to be getting better in taste while still keeping a fairly light body.
He also likes to use dextrose sugar, cane, and corn sugars as a mixture rather
then one type of sugar.  I have been thinking about experimenting with my
brewing practices to see what kind of beers I can make with other sugars.
I have already tried brewing with rice (once with grain another time with
an extract) and it seems to work pretty good but the beers seemed to be
a bit more astringent.

RINSEING BOTTLES:

Ephram Cohen had asked about rinsing bottles with tap water and whether this
might be OK.  I would say go for it.  I always rinse with tap water and I
think it works great because it is fairly bacteria free and even has chlorine
in it.  I do like to rinse with cold water instead of hot water because I
feel their would be less dissolved chlorine in it.  I always try to let
bottles sit for awhile after rinsing to allow chemicals to dissipate into
the air rather then staying in the bottle.  I think a bottle drying tree
would be excellant for this and someday I may even get around to makeing
one.

KEGS:

Cher Feinstein asked for comments on kegs since Cher claims to be avoiding
kegs because of a potential yeast stir-up.  I have a Cornelious keg system
which when I use it works great.  The yeast settles to the bottom of the
keg right next to the discharge tube.  When you tap the keg the yeast simply
comes out for the first pitcher or two and then there is no more yeast left.
This works great because you remove the yeast from the beer plus you get
much better beer in a keg over bottles.  I think you get better beer because
the greater quantity allows everything to blen well but probably more is
that there is much less oxygen to beer so less oxidation will go on.  I
don't really like my cornelious keg because of the connectors that I have
but I will be cooking a batch this weekend that is inteded to be kegged in
a 1/4 barrel keg.  I took me awhile to locate bungs but now I got them and
I'll be glad to let you know if I experience any "yeast stir-up" when I
tap it.

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Date: Fri, 6 Jan 89 12:25:40 PST
From: nosun!sharpwa!GODZLA.decnet!CROASDILL at Sun.COM (This PIZZA
symbolizes my COMPLETE EMOTIONAL RECOVERY!!)
Subject: Seasonal Beers

G'Day,				(12/15/88)
 
Last week I went to a beer Christmas/Winter beer tasting at the Dublin pub in
Portland, OR. hosted by Fred Ekhart (sp?).  They served a sampling of 10
different regional and national beers of the season.  Let me tell
you, there are
some really GOOD beers out there.  I'll try to rate them as -5 to +5 judged on
my linkings and those at the table with me. The ones we had were:
 
1) Oregon Trail Winter Ale (on tap)
   Oregon Trail Brewery, Corvallis OR.
   specifics -	OG 1.042 ?% Alc
		Dextrin and 2-row malts
		Willamette and Tettanger hops (30 bitterness)
   This was billed as a 'Dry' style beer.  It was pretty sweet though
and quite
   cloudy. I thought it had a slightly sour taste, but that could
have been from
   the 30 bitterness units...
   rated as average (0) Available only on tap.
 
2) Winter Hook (on tap)
   Independent Brewery (Red Hook), Seattle WA.
   specifics -	OG 1.052 4.1% Alc.
		grains?
		B.C. Goldings and Willamette hops (50 bitterness)
   A British sytle Pale Ale.  This is a new recipe from last year.  What was
   Winter Hook has now become Red Hook ESB.  Amber colored, the taste of the
   grains and hops come through very well. 
   rated as good stuff (+3) Available on tap or in bottles.
 
3) Widmer Festbier (on tap)
   Widmer Brewery, Poortland, OR.
   specifics -	OG 1.058 4.2%
		2 row, Munich, Choc malts and Rosted Barley
		Perle, Tettanger and Hautauller hops
   Very hoppy, otherwise average.   This is a german Altbier, wich is a german
   style ale, brewed at 60F then stored at <50F (lager temps)
   rated average (0) Available only on tap.
    
4) Winter Brew (on tap)
   Bridgeport brewery, Portland OR
   specifics -	OG 1.057 ?%
		Scottish pale, Crystal and Brown malts
		BC Goldings, Northern Brewer (40 bitterness)
		122F-155F single step infusion method
   WOW a great beer. I was too busy drinking and smiling to take notes.
   This is one to out of your way for (thankfully I don't have to go to far!)
   rated WOW (+4) Available only on tap.
 
5) WaSail (on tap)
   Hood River brewery (Full Sail Ale), Hood River OR. (wind surfer land)
   specifics -	OG 1.060 5.1%
		2 row, Crystal and Brit black malts
		Perle and Saaz hops
   The word for this beer is hops!  This is a strong ale.  The taste is very
   similar to Full Sail, only more body.
   rated very good (+2) Available only on tap.
 
6) Grant's Spiced Ale (aka Portland Winter Ale) (on tap)
   Grant's brewery, Yakama/Kirkland WA (Portland Brewery, Porland OR)
   specifics -	OG 1.061 5.3%
		2 row, 10% carmel malts.
		Galina and Cascade hops (30 bitteress)
		spices (guessed) Ginger, Cinnamon, Nutmeg, Clove,
[Corriander?]
   Serve this beer warm or you won't get to enjoy it (110F).  The
taste is well
   rounded.  The spices are evenly ballanced, and just remind you of
sitting by
   a fire on a cold winter night in the mountains.  I can't say enough about
   this beer.  Drive well out of your way for this one.  It will
remind you why
   you love beer. 
   rating (guess) AWESOME (+5) Available on tap or in bottles.
 
7) Anchor Christmas ale (bottle)
   Anchor Brewing, Bay Area(?) CA.
   specifics -	OG 1.068 5.1%
		2 row and Crystal malts
		? hops (dry hopped) (60 bitterness)
		spices Allspice, Cinnamon, Anise (?)
   This is a very good spiced ale.  Too bad we had it right after the Grant's.
   Again a lot of body in this brew.  We had this one cold, but Fred says
   it'smuch better warmed.
   rating great (+3)  Available on tap or in bottles.
 
[Barley wines]
 
8) Snow Cap Ale (on tap)
   Hart brewing, Kalama, WA
   specifics -	OG 1.074 7.0%
		2 row, Carel, Amber, Brown malts. Torrified barley
		CJ 90 (Saaz relative) and Cascade hops
   This has a very rich, malty flavor.  The hops are very present.  Could use
   some more aging (was only 1 month old).  Still very good.
   rating very good (+2).  Available on tap or in bottles.
 
9) Old Knucklehead (on tap)
   Bridgeport brewery, Portland OR
   specifics -	OG 1.092 7.1%
		Pale, Scottish, Crystal malts Rosted barley.
		Northern brewer, Kent golding hops (55 bitterness)
   Very smooth and malty.  Brewed at various times, Bridgeport brewery always
   serves half and stores half for later.  This is a very good example of a
   barly wine.
   rating WOW (+4).  Available only on tap.
 
10)Samichlaus Beir (in bottle)
   Samichlaus brewery, Zeurich, Swz.
   specifics -	? 11.9%
		aged 1 year.
   Another great barley wine.  We had this served with Bleu cheese.  I didn't
   write too much down, this was a last beer in a long night, but I seem to
   remember that it was very good, even bodied and like that.  All I wrote was
   WOW! so therefore...
   rating WOW (+4).  Available only in bottles around christmas. (don't forget
   the cheese!)
 
Well sorry about the spelling errors (I know they are there, "Damn it jim, I'm
a programmer not a typist"). I hope this is of some use to you all out there.
 
Hoppy holidays,
May all of your brews be bright!
Greg Croasdill
UUCP:  ...(tektronix | sun | percival)!nosun!sharpwa!gcc
Snail: Sharp Microelectronics             fone : (206) 253-3738
       Vancouver,WA (the other Vancouver) "Don't believe everything you read"

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Date: Fri, 6 Jan 89 13:30:27 EST
From: rogerl at Think.COM
Subject: comments on adding sugar

Jason, Your reading serves you well.  If you add sugar as you
suggested, and I interpretted, the brew will get a 'cidery' taste, I
know, it happen to a friend of mine.  Add any sugar to the wort
*during* the boil, not after.

I much prefer all malt brews myself and would go with adding another
can of extract or getting some of the dried Laaglaander Malt, about 2
to 3 lbs. for a 5 gal. batch.  Since you have already sprung for the
top shelf stuff, I would stay away from sugar as much as you can.

Good Luck and remember,
Relax, Don't Worry and Have a homebrew.
Roger Locniskar

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End of HOMEBREW Digest

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