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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Alternatives to traditional kegging... (Max Hayes)
  Re: Brewery Planning (Todd Goodman)
  Turkey Frying Safety (Mark Kempisty)
  Turkey's - DeDolle yeast (LJ Vitt)
  Trouble with Sparge Arm! (FRASERJ)
  Basement Brew Area (Calvin Perilloux)
  Re: Women and homebrew & Lite Free Philosophy (Barry LaBonte)
  RE: Cleaning aeration stones ("Parker Dutro")
  beer, turkey, Noni fruit, etc ("chad. . . .")
  Inadequate Carbonation in brew ("Romanowsky, Paul")
  Looking for a Brandon, Mississippi homebrewer. ("Randall Springstead")
  Turkey and other fowl topics, AlK, maltose syrup ("Steve Alexander")


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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 01:17:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Max Hayes <toxicbrewer at yahoo.com>
Subject: Alternatives to traditional kegging...

    I've been thinking recently about purchasing a
kegging system of some sort, but the arduousness of
finding a place to chill a two foot tall keg (don't
have a spare fridge at the moment), as well as having
to lug my five pound CO2 tank to a welding shop (the
fact that there might not be any in a ten mile radius
not withstanding), -and- getting it inspected and
stamped every five years, kind of puts me off a bit...
    But, it seems as if I just might have found the
answer to all of my kegging woes. I visited William's
Brewing tonight (http://www.williamsbrewing.com), and
checked out their kegging systems. It seems that they
carry an item known as a "Cartridge Injection System"
in 5 gallon systems as well as two 2 1/2 gallon
systems. They use 12 gram air-gun type CO2 cartridges
to dispense and/or carbonate your beer. I've seen a
few CO2 cartridge-dispenser-type systems before, but
nothing like this. These kegs look really nice and
durable, and it looks like, with their 5 gallon
system, they've modified corny kegs to take a
cartridge injector. 
    To get to my point, I'm wondering if anyone has
any experience with these, or, to be more precise, the
two 2 1/2 gallon injector system. I want to know if
these things will last, how well/badly they dispense
beer, if they can actually carbonate a batch well,
etc. Any information will be greatly appreciated.,
                                             Max Hayes

Oh, almost forgot. Here's a direct link to the 2 1/2
gallon "Cartridge Injection System":

http://www.williamsbrewing.com/AB1605000
/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Product_ID=748&CATID=14





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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:30:39 -0500
From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
Subject: Re: Brewery Planning

Bob Hall <rallenhall at toast.net> writes:
> 
> On a "constructive" note, one of my brewing buddies just broke ground for a 
> new home .... large house with full basement. We've been kicking around 
> some ideas, and my question to the collective ... if you could start a new 
> basement brewery from scratch, what would you plan? Any tips on equipment, 
> arrangement, plumbing, etc. would be appreciated and fun to play with (at 
> least until the compromises begin). BTW, he's currently a 5 gal partial 
> mash brewer on his way to all-grain.

As it happens I just got a new basement brewery and moved my basement
brewery from the old smaller space to the new.

So, important things for me were:

1)  Floor drains and tile floor  - My old BB (basement brewery) had a
tile floor and it was definately good for cleanup, but a floor drain
would have been better.

2)  More room - My old BB didn't have much room for storing grains,
kegs, etc.  It got difficult to move about.  This one is far larger.
Related to this I had the foundation dug deeper so the floor is much
lower than in the old BB (I'm 6'6" and have ended up on the floor as a
result of wacking my head on the old ceiling (and not from the
homebrew))

3)  I have a two bowl stainless commercial sink with built in shelves
(that are kind of like wings on each side) which are great.  I made
things much more convenient by having two outdoor faucets plumbed in
over one of these shelves (they have a lip that contains water and runs
it off into the bowl.)  One faucet is hot and I keep my bottle washer
attached to it most of the time.  The other is cold and I keep a
drinking water safe hose attached to it most of the time.  I use the
cold for my immersion chiller and to fill my mash tun and hot liquor
tank (both are converted kegs).

I use a commercial natural gas stove that isn't insulated (i.e., it's a
real commercial stove and not commercial grade for installation in a
residential kitchen.)  It's a six burner and I use one burner per keg
and have no more than two kegs on at once.  I pump up my sparge bucket
and then gravity feed for sparging.

Because it was a commercial stove, the fire department claimed that NFPA
required an automated fire supression system.  I found a company to
install a used Ansul system, but the custom made stainless hood cost
more than my stove and the suppression system put together.  It can't
have any seams in the ductwork from hood to mushroom fan outside.  The
hood has grease traps and a fuseable link that sets off the supression
system and gas shut off in case of fire in the duct area.  There's also
a manual ring pull for it.

The building inspector required a heat detector and CO detector hard
wired to the the rest of the house smoke detectors.  I used a digital CO
detector too though since I could read the level right on the display.

The building inspector also required large ventialtion holes (based on
the total BTU output of the stove and required oxygen use based on that
BTU rating.)  This was mostly because it was a small area the stove was
installed into and he was concerned about improper combustion and CO
production if there wasn't enough make up air.)

Once my new brew room is completed I plan the following:

1)  Hard plumb my pump and related items with valves to set the flows up
how I want.  I'm gonna look to getting rid of the gravity feed sparge or
at least get float switches to start/stop the flow.

2)  An electric hoist and trolley system for lifting the kegs full of
grain for cleanout.  They're heavy and my back doesn't like me lifting
them for cleanout.  I'll also use the hoist for lifting kegs into and
out of my chest freezer (once I get it.)  And fermenters as well.

Pics of the old brew room and partially completed new room are at:
http://bonedaddy.net/tgoodman/brewerypics/

Todd
Brewing again soon in Westford, MA  [630.3, 84]



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Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 10:18:23 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Turkey Frying Safety

There is no doubt that a couple of gallons of HOT oil requires a lot of
respect!

One way I have read to safely lower the bird into the oil is to put a
broom handle (or similar long pole) through the lowering hook.  Now two
people (one at each end) can stand back and lower the bird.  I'd still
dress safely and have gloves on.

Brew on!

- --
Take care,
Mark





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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:34:06 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Turkey's - DeDolle yeast


About turkey cooking methods

>Why cook a turkey in the oven anyway? Down here in
>louisiana we either smoke them or fry them. 

The reason why - you get different flavors from these different
methods of cooking.  For thanksgiving, I enjoy the long roasted
turkey -- However, I didn't do the cooking!

Fried turkey - nice in the summer with some sort of outdoor
event with a large number of people.

- --------------


>My records show A61 is Royal Oak, A78 is DeDolle .

I don't know the name of DeDolle's yeast.  But I did become aware
they changed yeast when I visited the brewery in May 2001.
The used to get yeast from Rodenbach.  After Rodenbach was taken
over by Interbrew, that supply was cut off.  They found a different
yeast from a University, and it improved the beer -- according to
the group of four of us that were visiting.  I'm not sure if we
currently see the new or old available in stores in the US now.



=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:06:17 -0500
From: FRASERJ at Nationwide.com
Subject: Trouble with Sparge Arm!

Darn it, this thing has been more hassle that the $15 it cost me.  It works
fine if I raise my HLT an extra six inches, but that means I cannot fill it
with the bucket!  Has anyone a better design than Phils?

I can always fill my HLT, then struggle to raise it an extra six inches
with six gallons of water in it, yuk!  I have also thought about modifying
the arms rests so that it is suspended inside the mash tun, therefore
giving me the extra six inches of head.

Anyone else have trouble with these "time/effort savers"??

John M. Fraser

http://rims-brewing.tripod.com
Sorry for the pop-ups!




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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:46:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Basement Brew Area

Bob Hall asks for tips on fitting out a basement brew area
in HBD 4108.  Bob, you have one lucky brew buddy!  That's
assuming the compromises don't end up pushing his brewing
out to the shed in the far corner of the garden.  (Note:
In a new house, SWMBO tends to frown on indoor brewing 
mess much more than she did in old, decrepit houses.)

Myself having a house with a basement, and wistfully 
thinking of what I could do with it if I started from 
scratch, here are some basics:

Plan a brew area along an outside wall, so you can get
proper venting of exhaust gases from the burners/boil.
In ideal circumstances, you'll have a walk-out basement
where you can perhaps step outside to a covered area
where you can brew in warm weather.  Make sure that in
any case you access for a large vent to outside, and
be prepared for $$$ for such a vent fan.  You might also
need a way to get air *in*, so you don't suck all the
climatised air out of the house while you're brewing.

Make sure you have plumbing to that area, and don't 
forget that you should plan drain access NOW!  That's 
something that you ought to get "roughed in" when the 
foundation is set up; doing it later can be a messy and
costly pain.  (Added note:  Make sure it's separate from 
a bathroom "rough-in" because I have a feeling that the 
contest between a future upgrade decision of brewery vs. 
bathroom could be a hard-fought loss for the brewery.)

Get electrics in there, with GFCI.

I won't go into details of dimensions, which I think
you might find in archives anyway, but I'd personally
look for a U-shaped kitchen arrangement with room for
countertops, cabinets, one or more fridges, and perhaps
a slot for that three-tier system he doesn't yet kow
he's going to want to buy.  Think all-grain space
requirements, obviously.

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA




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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:42:47 -0500
From: labonte at kiki.icd.teradyne.com (Barry LaBonte)
Subject: Re: Women and homebrew & Lite Free Philosophy

In a previous HBD Teresa said:

"Interesting thing about women and beer though... except for the few 
women lurking here at HBD, I've never met a female "beer fan" either. 
Perhaps all those macrobrew commercials with the bikini girls are to 
blame?"

My wife & I seperately fell in love with real ale, then german beer before 
meeting. Although she doesn't drink much now due to a medical condition, 
she always provides a quality control to my brewing. Quite notable 
considering her 9 siblings prefer megabrew to anything that might have 
taste.

And speaking of real ale, this was just sent to me by a friend in 
Manchester, UK in response to the "LITE FREE PHILOSOPHY" article quoted 
in a recent HBD:
"	A good article, if only there were more of these places.
	I was heartened earlier this month when visiting God's on city (on the 
6th day God created MANchester). In two city centre establishments, very 
close to a major concert venue, and both offering some of best selections 
of seasonal ales, I was pleased hear the staff advise visitors that 
"alcopops" are not available on the premises. The said visitors were 
then asked to move aside to enable people who know what to drink into 
the bar. Ah! The pleasures to be had in a drinking establishment."





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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:33:36 -0800
From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: RE: Cleaning aeration stones

Randy wrote:
>First, I pulled the stone apart (the barbed fitting easily pulls out
from 
>the hollow, cylindrical stone). I then made a strong solution of bleach
and 
>hot water. I soaked the parts in this solution for 15 to 20 minutes,
then 
>flushed them out thoroughly with water. I let them air dry overnight.

Glad to hear a good method for cleaning air stones.  A word on bleach
and hot water.  Its effects are negated in hot water, and you get a room
full of bleach fumes while your stuff soaks.  Use lukewarm to cold water
for a good twenty minute soak, and rinse thoroughly with hot running
water.  This ought to clean any organic material away. Also, I didn't
catch if your air stone was SS or not but assuming that it is, bleach is
not the best chemical for stainless.  Your lime away is probably a
better bet, just rinse that mutha good.  For organic deposits, I'd
probably go with Straight-A or B-Brite.  A small investment that I found
to work wonders, be very forgiving and easy to use.  All this talk of
cleaning air stones, I should probably do it myself.  Thanks for the
hint on cleaning mineral deposits.

Parker Dutro




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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:53:37 -0800 (PST)
From: "chad. . . ." <eclectic_solitaire at yahoo.com>
Subject: beer, turkey, Noni fruit, etc

I concur the chef's post about frying, however, if you
just cant for some reason fry the thing, try brining
the bird before you roast it. Soak the bird in mix of
one cup salt, half cup sugar, one bottle beer, 
various other seasonings, in one gallon of water
overnight before roasting.
Everyone I know thats eaten a turkey done this way
says its the best theyve had including yours truly.
(when not fried). This technique works w/ any big cut
of meat, chickens too.

Am typing this while waiting on my primary to finish
soaking in sanitizer. Honey wheat wort cooling off on
the stove, just racked a honeywine to secondary. Tasty
stuff but ill never use montrachet yeast again.

anyone ever use Noni fruit in a beer? cause of its
rather unique flavor im sure some recipe adjustments
will be necessary. I found a cheap (relatively) source
of raw juice by the gallon and want to use one in a
batch of beer. Anyone familiar w/ this stuff knows a
gallon of noni to an unadjusted recipe would make a
beer that a desperate wino would pass up.
As putrid as this stuff is, it works just like its
rumored to.

enjoy

73's




=====
 .
 .
CQ CQ CQ de KM5QF k kn



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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:32:10 -0500 
From: "Romanowsky, Paul" <paul.romanowsky at siemens.com>
Subject: Inadequate Carbonation in brew

Hope someone can help me on this:  I brewed a clone of "Samuel Smith's
Winter Welcome" on 10/11/02.  The recipe is from the "Clone brews" book.  
My OG on brew day was 1.068.
I had good fermentation as the airlock in my primary, (plastic), bubbled
quite nice for a good 5 to 6 days.  After about 9 days, (10/20/02)(I know I
should have done it sooner), I transferred to my secondary, (5 gal glass
carboy). 
 
Before transferring to secondary I checked the gravity and it was 1.022.
At transfer to secondary I noticed that fermentation was complete.  There
was no yeast activity left on top, only the remains sticking to the sides of
the pail above the beer.  I had use a bucket with a spigot in it as my
primary, so I did not siphon to the secondary but just attached my vinyl
tubing and racking wand to the spigot and transferred that way, leaving the
trub at the bottom of the primary.  I noticed while transferring that the
beer was quite clear at this point, much different than I am used to.  I let
the beer in the secondary till 11/14/02 at which point I bottled.  During
the whole time in the secondary I had no activity in the airlock.  Before
bottling I checked the FG and it was still at 1.022 which was the same
reading I got before transfer to secondary.  Also I only had very minimal
trub settle to the bottom of the carboy, (it did not even cover the whole
bottom).  I used corn sugar to prime instead of DME that was called for in
the recipe. 
 
Well it's been 2 1/2 weeks since bottling and I am sampling the fruits of my
labor.  Problem is that there is almost no carbonation in the beer.  I can
pour into a glass very aggressively and still hardly get any head.  The beer
of course tastes flat.  Other than that the taste is quite nice.  One other
thing, there is no sediment at the bottom of my bottles and the beer is
quite clear, (the clear part not being a bad thing)and yes I'm sure I put in
the priming sugar.

Can anyone tell me how to salvage this brew???  Could I open all the
bottles, pour into a sterilized fermentor and pitch some more yeast, (which
was Wyeast's 1084 Irish Ale in the XL size smack pack)?  It would be worth
the aggravation I'm sure.

Thanks in advance.

Paul R.


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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:30:06 -0500
From: "Randall Springstead" <springs28 at attbi.com>
Subject: Looking for a Brandon, Mississippi homebrewer.

To whom,
I've contacted Bayou Classic and need someone to purchase a burner for me at
their outlet store in Brandon, Mississippi...
If yoou are interested in helping....springs28 at attbi.com

Thank you in advance...
Oldshoe Brew



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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:06:14 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at att.net>
Subject: Turkey and other fowl topics, AlK, maltose syrup

I'm 100% with Chef Tom Clark.   Fried turkey is great but so is a properly
roast bird.  The problem is that most recipes bake a bird at 350F and don't
roast it at all.   You need temps around 450F for the first hour (+ or -)
while turning it every 15-20 minutes - then the temp can be lowered.  On a
big bird you must shield some parts like the breast and legs w/ aluminum
foil at the end to prevent overcooking.

TomC is right about the temp dropping when the bird is first inserted in the
oil, but even after that point the cooking temp should be watched to prevent
smoking of the oil.  The specific temp is very dependent on the oil and not
what you are cooking.

How long to cook ?    Regardless of cooking method you'll find that internal
temperature is the only reliable guide.   The USDA probably recommends 160F
internal temp, which will produce a nasty dry chewy lump   James Beard OTOH
suggests pulling birds out of the heat at 135F-140F which produces a moist
but sometimes too-rare bird.  It's 140F-145F for me.

I've a question for this eclectic group.   When I was at the 1999 Stuttgart
O'fest  (other places around S.Germany) I had some roast duck that was
absolutely terrific.   I know the US folks are thinking of those nasty
little 3 lb "Pekin" or "Long Island White" ducks that are 90% fat by weight.
The Duck I had in Germany was clearly from a much different animal - a
single breast filled a plate and had a texture close to moist & tender
pork - not greasy & fatty at all.     I was told by one of the locals that
the French started growing these several years before and it was really
taking off in Germany.

I've come to believe that these are Muscovy duck, an huge almost flightless
S.American breed.   I've had Muscovy duck in the US a couple times and tho'
the preparation is different I think it's the same bird.  The few
ultra-gourmet yuppy shops in the US that carry these want $50+$20shipping
for a bird frozen.  Has anyone had any luck finding these at a more
reasonable price ?

Tom - is this Muscovy ?   Is there a way to get these at a decent price
without digging a duck pond ?

- --

Skotrat says ...
> Subject: Al Korz....  [...]
> Come on back and post more often.

Please return Al.    It still amazes me that the same basic brewing
questions arise year after year and for many years Al patiently replied to
every one of them.  I try to email replies to some but there is no way I
could keep up with Al's pace.  Al was of course involved in most of the
advanced discussions too.

Whether you're a newbie or an experienced brewer you'll probably find a lot
to like in Al Korzonas' book "HomeBrewing: Vol 1"  http://www.brewinfo.com/
 .  Tho' Al is too nice a guy to plug his own book on HBD I don't share that
limitation ;^)  .   Al's book is  primarily about partial mash brewing, but
the related information on style and problems resolution is excellent and
the description (yes actual descriptions) of the flavors and aromas of
specialty malts, hops and yeasts don't appear in any other book.

> "The broken seats in empty rows, It all belongs to me you know"
>  - P. Townshend

OK Scott, but let's keep those 5 inch side-vents on your jacket, not
your kilt.  The 'leeping along' is straight out too.
- ---

Maltose syrup.  I recently posted that an 80% glucose + 20% malto-dextrin
couldn't emulate anything called maltose syrup (whatever that is).  I found
a description (in AlK's book btw) stating that "high maltose corn syrup"
used by brewers which consists of 3% glucose, 72% maltose and maltotriose,
and 25% unfermentable dextrins  From the description is sounds like this
stuff was meant to add a dextrinous body to certain beer.

Anyway 80% glucose and 20% maltodextrin (or better 75% sucrose and 25%
maltodextrin) is probably as close as a brewer is likely to get to making a
"high maltose syrup" substitute, but the glucose or inverted sucrose will
impact yeast metabolism differently than maltose syrup.    IMO maltose syrup
and it's substitutes  would not be appropriate for milds, bitters, IPAs
which use 'chip sugar'  (lightly caramelized sucrose) additions.

AlK suggests reserving syrups for high gravity Belgian ales only.

fwiw,
 -S





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