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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re:  hop utilization, Designing Great Beers ("Ray Daniels")
  Re: Grains of Paradise (Tom Davidson)
  yeast slants (Randy Ricchi)
  AHA Club Only Fruit & Vegi Results (David Perez)
  Subject: Brewing as a Job ("Bridges, Scott")
  VALOR Y AL TORO! ("Beer Phantom")
  Re: Ayinger Yeast (Rick)
  Re: yeast slants (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Grains of Paradise (Jeff Renner)
  acrylic cement (Wade Hutchison)
  DCL (Saf) Yeasts (Alan McKay)
  Wyeast 1968, Commercial slants ("John Misrahi")
  RE: Ayinger Yeast (Brian Lundeen)
  Brewing as a Job ("greg man")
  Slants ("Strom C. Thacker")
  yeast slants (Rama Roberts)
  Ayinger yeast/Slants (Richard Foote)
  How long in the bucket (D H)


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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:53:07 -0600
From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net>
Subject: Re:  hop utilization, Designing Great Beers

This is about altitude and hop utilization.  My information on this
subject came from Garetz (Using Hops, 1994).  On page 137, he gives a
correction factor as follows:

TF = ((Elevation in feet/550)*0.02) + 1

Multiply your wort volume by this factor in IBU or hop weight
calculations to apply the correction.  

I just ran a little sample calculation to see what the effect would be
for your two locations and it showed a drop in bitterness yield of about
20 percent.

As I have brewed entirely in Chicago with a few hundred grand feet of
elevation above sea level, I have never had occasion to use or test this
equation.  
Others may be able to comment on its suitability in settings such as
those Dave describes. 


Ray Daniels
Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer
Director, Brewers Publications
Association of Brewers

ray at aob.org
773-665-1300

For subscriptions and individual copy sales, call 1-888-822-6273. 




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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:27:49 -0500
From: Tom Davidson <tj.davidson at comcast.mapson.net>
Subject: Re: Grains of Paradise

> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:41:55 -0500
>  From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
>  Subject: Re: Grains of Paradise

http://www.thespicehouse.com/grainsofparadise.htm




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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:35:53 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: yeast slants

Jeff, I'm surprised you aren't aware of BrewTek yeast slants. Brewers
Resource sells them. I've tried many of their strains, and they are
excellent quality.
Check them out at: http://www.brewtek.com/

Jeff Renner wrote:
>One more thing - there is, as far as I know, no supplier of yeast
slants now.



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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:37:55 -0500
From: David Perez <perez at gator.net>
Subject: AHA Club Only Fruit & Vegi Results

Well after several failed attempts to post, here it is!

The results are in!!!  We had a great competition with
46 entries from all over the country. The quality of the
entries was quite high, which led to 14 beers moving
to the Best of Show round. So without further ado,
here are the results.

1st Place - Kurt Hausam of Strange Brew
    Salem, Oregon
    Entry Name - Thrilla Vanilla
    Entry - Robust Porter with Vanilla Beans

2nd Place - Paul Pilcher of Kansas City Bier
Meisters
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Entry Name - English Brown with Chilies
    Entry Type - Northern English Brown with Anaheim
& Jalapeno Chilies

3rd Place - Ray Lewis of Upstate New York
Homebrewers Association
    Livonia, New York
    Entry Name - Cherry Smash
    Entry Type - Oud Bruin with Sour Cherries

Honorable Mention -* *Ronnie Anderson & Joel
Trainer of James River Homebrewers
    Goochland, Virginia
    Entry Name - Double Dip Brown
    Entry Type - Southern English Brown with Chocolate
and Vanilla

Hogtown Brewers would like to thank all who entered
and the out of town guest judges & Stewards who
lended their expertise to this event. We will be sending
out the score sheets to all entrants within the next couple
of days. It may take a bit longer to receive than normal
due to the holiday mail.

Dave Perez
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL




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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:39:15 -0500
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: Subject: Brewing as a Job


Dan Listerman writes:

>>I agree that it is a risky business to start especially a brewpub because
>>first you have to have a successful restaurant, an that's hard to start as
>>well.
>
>I have come to question this bit of conventional wisdom.  Restaurants have
a
>horrible failure rate.  The bet with a brewpub is that the beer will
>increase traffic enough to increase the odds of survival while paying for
>the brewhouse.  It is my belief that restaurant biz is too fickle for this
>strategy to work reliably.  Starting a restaurant is a huge undertaking and
>operating it is still another.  I believe that the corner bar that brews
its
>own beer has a good future, especially an established bar.  Bars generally
>have a better survival rate than restaurants if the urge to be hyper trendy
>is resisted.  Go to your neighborhood bar and think "how would this place
do
>if the bartender brewed the beer and it only cost about $20 a keg to
>produce?"

Good point, but the investment to start a brewery (even a brewpub w/o a
bottling line) is far greater than that required for a simple neighborhood
bar.  I've also been to such brewpubs that served little to no food, but
they are the exception.  From what I have learned, you need the flow of
people (and cash) that a restaurant brings in to drive enough volume through
the establishment to pay any kind of return on the brew house.  Like I said
before, grain is cheap, so maybe you spend $20/keg for the ingredients.
When you amortize the cost of the stainless steel, rent, insurance, taxes,
wages, and utilities required to produce that keg of beer, how much did that
keg now cost you?   It's far more than $20.  In fact, you might be able to
buy a keg of Bud cheaper, unless you can produce enough volume to lower the
cost per unit.  It's all about volume - how much volume you can pump through
a given piece of equipment.  Our economist friend posting in today's HBD,
Boris from Spain, would call this economies of scale.

Everybody knows that a restaurant is the riskiest business there is (except
maybe dot coms....).  I'm foggy on the numbers, but something like 50% of
them fail in the first few yrs.  Who in their right mind would open a
restaurant?  I think it's been established that a brewpub is a less risky
venture than a std restaurant, but conventional wisdom says that you still
need to have a good restaurant attached to the brewpub to give the brewpub a
better chance at survival.  

Just my $.02
Scott
(home)brewing in Columbia, SC




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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:46:34 -0600
From: "Beer Phantom" <beer_phantom at hotmail.com>
Subject: VALOR Y AL TORO!

A standing ovation for Boris!

For those of you who missed his post on Friday, drop what you are doing and 
read it.  I realize my posts are typically cynical in nature, but this will 
definietly be a departure from the norm.

I actually got goosebumps reading Boris' post.  What balls! Quitting his 
well paying "normal" job in persuit of a dream.  How many of us hate, or are 
not thrilled with our jobs?  How many of us dread Mondays and look forward 
to Fridays?  Too many, I'm sure.  I know there are some of you who love your 
vocations, so count your blessings.  You are a staggering minority.  Too 
many people live their lives in bondage to a paycheck which comes at a very 
high price.  Let's face it, we spend the best part of the day at work, at 
least 8 hours, plus commute time, plus overtime.  By the time your time is 
your own, you may have a scant 3 or 4 hours (at night usually) before it's 
time to go to bed so you can do it all over again.  To spend that much of 
your day doing something that is unfufilling, unrewarding, and unexciting is 
a terrible waste of the time that God gave you.  Yes, brewing is hard work, 
but what worthy persuit isn't?  We should all be as dillegent to our dreams 
as Boris. Stories like this are meant to inspire us, and I am definitely 
inspired, I can't believe at least half of this audience isn't inspired 
also.

Damn the naysayers, silence the critics, and screw the cowards - COURAGE AND 
GO FOR THE BULL (Valor y al toro !).  Thanks Boris!

Inspired in anonimity,

The Beer Phantom






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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 06:40:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Rick <ale_brewer at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Ayinger Yeast

Jeff Renner wrote:
>I emailed Chris White telling him of our discussions 
>and encouraging him to consider renaming the yeast.
>I got a better answer than I had expected:

Jeff,

I for one am ecstatic to hear I don't have to wait
until next fall to get the Ayinger yeast.  I was
really bummed to hear about YCKCo. I was just
preparing to order some slants when I read the post
that they closed.  The other two yeasts I desparately
wanted were their Weizen and Faversham Ale yeasts.  I
made my best weizen with their W51. Does anyone know
if these yeasts exist with other suppliers?

As for White Labs, I raise my pint to them.  I'm
convinced with one over the other, but White Labs sure
is winning the PR battle.  Chris White seems to be
more visible in the homebrewing community and their
willingness to make this yeast a standard offering
proves their commitment to their consumers.  

Thanks Jeff for helping make this happen. I like the
Upper Bavarian Lager description.

Rick Seibt
Bierstein Brewery
Mentor, OH



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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:37:04 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: yeast slants

At 8:35 AM -0500 12/20/02, Randy Ricchi wrote:
>Jeff, I'm surprised you aren't aware of BrewTek yeast slants. Brewers
>Resource sells them. I've tried many of their strains, and they are
>excellent quality.
>Check them out at: http://www.brewtek.com/
>
>Jeff Renner wrote:
>>One more thing - there is, as far as I know, no supplier of yeast
>slants now.

Guess that comes from not being a yeast rancher.  Glad to know of 
their availability.  Thanks.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:46:23 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Grains of Paradise

Dave Towson <dtowson at comcast.net> Bel Air, MD

>Thanks to Jeff Renner for answering my query concerning grains of
>paradise.  I have been curious to try this spice ever since I learned about
>it while perusing recipes a couple weeks ago.  Where do you get it, Jeff?

Your local home brew shop should have it or be able to get it.  There 
are also mail order spice sources. 
http://www.thespicehouse.com/grainsofparadise.htm has it for 
$2.95/ounce.  http://www.cookswares.com/individual.asp?n=V046 has it 
for $7.20/2.25 oz.

An ounce should last a long time for beer.  It might be interesting 
to investigate African cooking with them, though.

Hope this helps.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:53:15 -0500
From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu>
Subject: acrylic cement

Most acrylic cement is just a solvent that softens the acrylic and then
evaporates.  Basically "melting" the acrylic together.  None of those
solvents will be "food safe", but if you allow ample time to dry (several
days, perhaps) there shouldn't be any traces of the solvent left, and the
final product will be safe.  I would caution you that unless you use
fairly thick acrylic, the heat from the steam coming off the mash may
well warp and twist your lid.  If you really want to see what's going on,
and not worry about warping, look for a piece of polycarbonate.
Hope this helps,
         -----wade
         whutchis at bucknell.edu
         Brewing at 41deg 00' N by 76deg 50' W
         597.6 Klicks, 101.5 deg. Rennerian
         Milton, PA 17847

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'" ~ Dave Barry

At 12:13 AM 12/18/2002, you wrote:
>Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:01:35 -0500
>From: Kevin McDonough <kmcdonou at nmu.edu>
>Subject: Food safe acrylic cement
>
>My friend's dad built me a nice stainless steel, rectangular mash tun.  I
>want to add a lid and
>plan to use acrylic as it is cheap and effective.  However, I want to add
>some molded acrylic
>corner pieces to the underside of the flat lid so it won't move around when
>setting on top of the
>mash tun.  Does any one know of a cement or glue that will work with
>acrylic and is FDA
>approved or food safe?

         



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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:17:44 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: DCL (Saf) Yeasts


You can view all the DCL profiles in my Yeast DB :
http://www.bodensatz.com/yeastdb/index.php?Manu=DCL

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site (tm)


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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:07:16 -0500
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: Wyeast 1968, Commercial slants

Hi all,
I saw all the discussion related to Wyeast 1968. For what it's worth, I've
used it 5 or 6 times and it's always fermented out just fine, without the
need to 'rouse' the yeast or any other special attention. As always,
however, YMMV.

With regards to the subject of no slants beign available commercially, I
believe there is a university in the United States somewhere that sells many
yeasts on slants, but the name and other information slips my mind. Does
anyone recall? I just remember hearing about it in a discussion, but it was
3rd or 4th hand information.

john
[6631.2, 17.4] <aka montreal> Apparent Rennerian

Pothole?  Thats luxury!  I have to ferment directly in my mouth.  On brew
day I fill up my mouth with wort in the am and drop a few yeast cells in and
3 hours later I swallow.  Wish I had a pothole to ferment in. -Mike Brennan
on the HBD

"Ah, Billy Beer... we elected the wrong Carter." -Homer Simpson

"Fryer oil is like underwear, it needs to be changed once in a while or it
breaks down"  - Andrew Perron





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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:53:42 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Ayinger Yeast


> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:25:51 -0500
> From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
> Subject: Ayinger yeast
> 
> I have sent Chris some name suggestions, and he says he welcomes 
> other suggestions from you all.  Post them here and cc me and I'll 
> forward them to him.
> 

Well, if I'm pronouncing it correctly, we could always take the homonym
approach and call it the Lascivious Lager Yeast. ;-) 

Seriously, won't it simply become common knowledge in the brew world where
this yeast is from, no matter what you call it? I mean, Chris has picked a
name which is no more misleading, restrictive or informationally void than
most yeast strain names, wouldn't it just be more trouble than its worth to
change its name?

My vote is just leave it as is. BTW, have the yeast manufacturers ever tried
just asking the breweries for permission to use their names, so there's no
more of this "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" nonsense? 

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:18:00 -0500
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com>
Subject: Brewing as a Job


Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 08:56:42 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Brewing as a Job

"greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com> writes:


<I agree that it is a risky business to start especially a brewpub because
<first you have to have a successful restaurant, an that's hard to start as
<well.

I have come to question this bit of conventional wisdom.  Restaurants have a
horrible failure rate.  The bet with a brewpub is that the beer will
increase traffic enough to increase the odds of survival while paying for
the brewhouse.  It is my belief that restaurant biz is too fickle for this
strategy to work reliably.  Starting a restaurant is a huge undertaking and
operating it is still another.  I believe that the corner bar that brews its
own beer has a good future, especially an established bar.

greg writes..............
your right that is the general idea that the beer will attract the people. 
However I can't find the article but it was in the Daily News paper last 
year it mentioned a substantial number of brew-restaurants opened up over 
the last few years in New York city. Due the the craft beer revival, an 
growing interest in the beer with flavor.

However The article went on to mention that the ones that were still around 
and most successful had good restaurants an that's what really keep them 
alive.

I would suppose after spending most of my young adult life working in 
restaurants, the major draw seems to be the nitch. If you can start 
something different and carve out your own little nitch then people will be 
attracted to it.

In my opinion, although its not worth much I still believe that a great 
brewer could not save a dieing restaurant, they both have to be good the 
beer an food.





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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:17:05 -0800
From: "Strom C. Thacker" <sthacker at bu.edu>
Subject: Slants

Jeff Renner writes:

"One more thing - there is, as far as I know, no supplier of yeast
slants now."

I believe Brewer's Resource sells yeast on slants:

http://www.brewersresource.com

Strom Thacker
Palo Alto, CA


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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:21:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: yeast slants

Excellent news about WL- way to proxy for the masses!

> he asked me if that many people bought yeast on slants.  I 
> don't know.  You all tell him.

I would be very interested in slants for the handful of yeasts I tend to use a 
lot. Grape and Granary sells blank slants, and for a while, I would streak the 
slant with any new strain I aquired. Problem is, slants apparently only last a 
few months (debatable) then need to be restreaked- so you would need to be in 
the business of yeast ranching to see the benefit of buying a slant (long term 
storage), rather than a pitchable tube. 
Chances are, most people aren't going to buy a slant and use that same strain 
to make multiple starters within its moderately short lifetime- so IMO there's 
not much of a consumer audience for that sort of thing. You either are a 
rancher and make your own slants, or like to keep it simple and just buy a 
pitchable tube.

- --rama






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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:24:22 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Ayinger yeast/Slants

Brewerz,

Getting in on the Ayinger discussion...

Year 'round offering of Ayinger lager--YIPPEE!  I'll second Jeff's praise
of this strain for producing malt/hop balanced beers.  I have, however,
brewed N. German pilsners with good results using this strain in regional
HB competitions.  It is indeed great for CAP's too.  

Now for the name, taking a different tack...

When I think of Ayinger, I think of the famed Celebrator.  When I think of
Celebrator, I think of the little goat figurine hung around the neck (of
the bottle).  Now, "goat" or "billy goat" lager would not be a very
marketable name, but how about the German name for goat?  Not knowing
German, I'm a poor judge of this aspect.  This ties in the connection with
Ayinger and the current designation of "bock".  Just a thought, coming in a
convoluted manner from a warped brain.

As to use of slants... put me down as a supporter.  Got three in my brew
fridge and that's all the yeast I've got!  Although I've seen it recommeded
that slants be replaced every six months, I've had good results with year
and a half old slants of Ayinger.


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing 
Murrayville, GA





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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:09:42 -0800 (PST)
From: D H <uqob at yahoo.com>
Subject: How long in the bucket

Greetings,
I've had beer in a bucket under air lock since
mid-August. Looked in and took a sniff and can't
detect any off aroma. Smells like a bucket of beer.

Should I bottle it or should I just assume that it's
swill by default?

Thanks,
D



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