HOMEBREW Digest #4134 Wed 01 January 2003

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  re: Yeast & Maylasia ("Steve Alexander")
  Speed of Temperature Increases and Wort Flow in HERMS ("Kevin Eggemeyer")
  Just blame me! (Bob Sheck)
  Step Mash with a False Bottom (Hayes Antony)
  Fluoride (Hayes Antony)
  Re: Barley that tastes like coffee (Ed Westemeier)
  Re: re: New B3 false bottom ("Arnold Neitzke")
  Pre-poured petri dishes ("Mark Kellums")
  barley taste like coffee (LJ Vitt)
  RE: Why such long boils? (Donald and Melissa Hellen)
  FB's and 4VG (Richard Foote)
  Pre-poured petri plates (Volt)" <a-msharp at microsoft.com>
  double mash an hops ("greg man")
  new wooden kegs! (Teresa Knezek)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 23:51:39 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: Yeast & Maylasia KelvinK in Malaysia is interested in starting a yeast business. All large breweries and many small breweries manage their own yeast strain. Little guys may use Wyeast, WhiteLabs or others (and there are probably 2 dozen other yeast vendors) as a source or the strain or else pay a type culture to keep the strain for them. NCYC and ATCC are two big culture houses that have hundreds of brewing strains between them. Weihenstephan has a big culture library too. You can buy a slant of nearly any of these yeast for a few hundred dollars per slant. In addition to folks selling slants, starter cultures and slurries there are dry yeast vendors. DCL(SafBrew) and Lallemand(Danstar) are two big names. The big headache IMO is that to only dry yeasts are practically available at proper pitching rates for a reasonable price. All other means require starters. The recommended pitching rate for 5 gal of 12P wort is about 340 Billion *viable* lager cells or 170B ale cells. Since most HB tends to be of higher gravity and overpitching does little harm I'd suggest pitching pack sizes that deliver 400B cells for lager and 200B cells for ales would be ideal for HB use. The Wyeast tubes have 45-60B cells and the WL tubes 30B-60B. You *need* a starter when using these slurry tubes and I am not satisfied the slurries remain viable and vital for the 3 or 4 month label date. Using only slurry tubes it would cost something like $100US to properly pitch 12 gallons of pils I regularly make - out of the question. Smack packs are nice since you can see the pack swell and have some confidence in the yeast viabilty, but the biggest Wyeast smack pak - the 200ml pack intended for BOPs to pitch into15gal produces only 105B to 120B cells. Better than the tubes by far, but I don't see BOP packs in the shops and the 120B cell count is marginal even for 5gal ales. The XL pak is 45B-60B cells just like the tubes. Dry yeasts seem like the answer. They have great shelf life (1yr+) and the cost is reasonable. The big problem is that the selection is limited. Lallemand seems very interested in serving the HB market. On their website they have some Q&A from the annual(?) Dr.Clayton Cone's HBD session. Dr. Cone makes no bones of the fact that the 5gram sachet (an implied 75B cells when properly rehydrated) were intended for cheap beer kits. He openly recommends starting with 2 sachets(150B) per 5gal of 10P ale and then suggests trying 3 sachets (225B cells) if the HBer is not satisfied with 2. Lallemand vends only ale yeasts (no lagers I think), so Dr Cone's pitching rate advice seems "dead on" to me. At a cost of $0.70 per sachet I've no complaints about the cost of pitching Lallemand(Danstar) - it would cost about $5 to properly pitch 12gal of 15P ale with. That's very reasonable. If only they had a wider selection. DCL is a completley different story in dried yeast. DCL's website says ... "Homebrewing has recently and gradually changed into a means to produce cheap beers as a most affordable hobby". Yeah - pretty insulting attitude toward HBers IMO. DCL produces several lager strains but only makes one available to HBers. DCL suggests pro-brewers pitch ale yeasts at a rate equivalent to 190B cells per 5gal and lager at about 2X - this seems very reasonable. For HBers they suggest one packet per 5gal (115B cells) for ale yeasts. This is quite marginal. I suspect DCL is a great choice for the pro-brewer or the HBer who knows better than the DCL marketing team. I have to applaud the guys at Paddock Woods homebrew who buy the DCL yeast for pro-brewers and then package these in 75% larger packets. They give their customers a better selection *and* a much more reasonable size product. That's a great step in the right direction. Thanks PW for trying to make up for DCL's market ignorance. (and yes they ship to the US at reasonable rates). Personally I'd like to see DCL ale yeasts in 20gm packets (just as PW packs them) and the lager strains in 40gm packets - but pitching 2 20gm packs isn't a headache as long as the instructions reflect this. If I used one of these dry yeast regularly I'd appreciate being able to buy it larger amounts and again Paddock Wood Homebrew has it - they sell 500gm bricks of the DCL yeasts. The price is a stunning $110Cdn which translates to a more acceptable $70.15US. Odd but the brick costs more than the packets if I calculate right. You'd blow about $14 pitching 12 gallons of 12P pils - high, but not outrageous. - -- Not sure how much this helps Kelvin, but the ideal yeast vendor ... 1/ has a wide selection of strains 2/ sells a proper amount for direct pitching a reasonable price and 3/ the product has a long shelf life Any company with 2 of these 3 features is a winner today. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 23:27:22 -0600 From: "Kevin Eggemeyer" <KevinE at AccessTraining.com> Subject: Speed of Temperature Increases and Wort Flow in HERMS I have a question for the collective about the ideas behind recirculating mash systems. I've searched a little in the archives, but I'm not exactly sure what term to use. What I'm interested in knowing more about is how quickly the temperature can/should be raised using a HERMS type system. The limiting factor that I've come across is the speed at which the wort can be recirculated. To increase the flow rate, I thought about having the pump pull from the top of the grain bed and return to the bottom. I'm not sure if you'd call this "reverse mashing", "up mashing", or just plain crazy! The point being to increase the flow from the roughly one-half gallon of wort transferred through the heat exchanger now to several times that volume. My thought is that by going in reverse and constantly stirring the mash, it won't compact. For sparging, the pump would be turned off and the wort would be allowed to flow by gravity after the grain bed was set. What I've built so far is a HERMS controlled by a Javelin Stamp (the Java programmed cousin of the Basic Stamp) and a PC. I know that I have the proverbial "solution looking for a problem", but I'm really into gadgets. Any assistance with the following questions would be appreciated. Any thoughts on recirculating in reverse? Is it possible to damage the grist or extract undesirables based on the rough handling that would be required to improve the flow (other than HSA)? Is there a maximum to how quickly the mash temperature should be increased? Kevin Wentzville, MO Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:46:43 -0500 From: Bob Sheck <bobsheck at earthlink.net> Subject: Just blame me! Oh! How we have to pay for our sins. . . Just go to http://hbd.org/forums/messages/board-topics.html choose World Expressions, go to subtopic "Needs Adjustment" and we can continue this offline from the real HBD. Subject: Wankers/Beer topics Franklin, etc How to insult foreigners and other people on the list or any other rant you want to reply to me about. . . Yep, just ask me how to piss off anyone, I can tell you, I'm an expert. Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC bsheck at earthlink.net // [583.2,140.6] Apparent Rennerian Home Brewing since 1993 // bobsheck at earthlink.net // Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:28:16 +0200 From: Hayes Antony <HayesA at aforbes.co.za> Subject: Step Mash with a False Bottom Steve Alexander asked, "You guys who mash with a false bottom(FB) in place - just exactly how do you step the temperature ? (w/o a pump I mean). There is always some grist under the FB and direct heating is a formula for scorch and the FB plate retards any heat flow anyway." My mash tun is a scaled down version of the Draymans Brewery mash tun (http://www.draymans.com/ ). It has a false bottom in place while mashing occurs. Draymans use a pump to recirculate. The process involves opening the outlet valve wide for a few seconds to flush out any grist caught underneath. The gas is then lit under the tun, and the recirculating flow rate reduced so as not to pull a vacuum (which can also lead to scorching). I don't bother with a pump for recirculation at the moment. I just use a jug, and pour back on top gently. (HSA is the least of my worries). I have not had a scorch yet, and yet I can ramp from 65C to 76C in about 10 minutes ( 149 to 169). (See pictures at http://www.geocities.com/anthayes/glenbrewery.html) Ant Hayes Johannesburg Confidentiality Warning ======================= The contents of this e-mail and any accompanying documentation are confidential and any use thereof, in what ever form, by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:14:50 +0200 From: Hayes Antony <HayesA at aforbes.co.za> Subject: Fluoride Our Minister of Health is contemplating requiring our local water boards to add fluorine to municipal water. Currently our water is quite pleasant (Ca 18; Mg 9; Na 12; SO4 15; Cl 12; HCO3 84) and so the only treatment really necessary is to remove chlorine - which a carbon filter seems to do well. I gather that fluorine has been added to US water for some time, but a search of the archives gives no tips as to how to remove it. Do any of you bother, and if so, what do you do? I asked one of the SAB brewers, since they also use municipal water, but his view was that they could still persuade government that fluorine was not environmentally friendly. He did say that their carbon filters would not work. Any tips? Ant Hayes Johannesburg Confidentiality Warning ======================= The contents of this e-mail and any accompanying documentation are confidential and any use thereof, in what ever form, by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 07:27:56 -0500 From: Ed Westemeier <hopfen at malz.com> Subject: Re: Barley that tastes like coffee On Tuesday, Nathan Matta wrote: > My mother doesn't drink > coffee for religious reasons, but likes the taste. She recently found > a > beverage called "BarleyBrew" which is made from 100% barley, and > looks and brews up pretty much like coffee. The bad news is that the > company is out of business, and the stuff is no longer being made. FWIW, you can find a product at some Oriental food stores called "roasted barley tea." The package in front of me contains 52 large (10g) bags, each suitable for making a pitcher (1.5L) of tea. Ingredients listed are: 1. Barley (no color, no preservative). Odd taste, but quite nice. I like it as iced tea in the summer. Product of Japan. If you want to try finding it online, the brand name is Shirakiku. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:10:03 -0500 From: "Arnold Neitzke" <arnold_neitzke at ameritech.net> Subject: Re: re: New B3 false bottom > My question is this. You guys who mash with a false bottom(FB) > in place - just exactly how do you step the temperature ? (w/o a pump I > mean). There is always some grist under the FB and direct heating is a > formula for scorch and the FB plate retards any heat flow anyway. > > False-bottoms - I don't see how you guys put up with them ! > > -S With a false bottom and no pump, you use containers to recalculate. I used a 8 cup measuring cup and a 2 cup measuring cup container. I would start filling the 8 cupper and quickly switch to the 2 cupper and keep exchanging them while dumping the wort back on top. This is a great pain in the a$$ and I now use a pump (thank you Pico-Brewing co!) Pumping is a much preferred method of recalculating. Brewed my last batch of the year on the 30th, I wanted it to be the 31st but swmbo said that my brewery was her kitchen that day :) Hope you all had a happy new years eve. Arnold Neitzke Brighton Mi Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:58:29 -0600 From: "Mark Kellums" <infidel at springnet1.com> Subject: Pre-poured petri dishes Here's a link for prepared media plates. http://www.cynmar.com/default.php?cPath=179_108&sort=1a&&page=4 Hope this helps. Mark Kellums Decatur Il. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:42:57 -0800 (PST) From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com> Subject: barley taste like coffee Nathan is looking for a barley that can be used as a coffee substitution. I suggest 3 forms: Roasted Barley -- like commonly used in stouts Black Patent malt Chocolate malt These are the most highly levels of roasted malts that can be found. Actually, roasted barley is not malted, but I am including it in my comments about roasted malts. I suggest trying the first 2 over chocolate, because roasted barley and black patent malt cause the coffee flavor description to come to mind. I think ANY homebrew supply shop will have these malts available. Price per pound is likely to be lower than coffee is. However, I don't know how much one would need to use to make a coffee like drink. ===== Leo Vitt Rochester MN Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 11:55:54 -0500 From: Donald and Melissa Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net> Subject: RE: Why such long boils? Ralph Davis asked if boil times can be reduced for the mash liquor: - ---------------------------------------------------------------- I understand that bittering hops require a while for the proper oils to be fully dissolved.... (hence some IPAs advertise a "90 minute boil") however, why not just boil the bittering hops for the required long time (and you could use less in the brew-water too) and add the mash liquor just for the last 20 minutes or less? Sterilization will take place in boiling about 10 minutes . . . Isn't there something to be gained from not overboiling wort? - ------------------------------------------------------------------ There was a couple of articles in Brew Your Own magazine that covered this topic back in October or November. The gist of the information was that you can boil your hops in water only, but you would need to reduce your hop quantity by a certain amount because hop utilization increases as the wort density decreases. Or, you could just boil the hops for a shorter time period to compensate for this. The article stated that some award-winning beers have been brewed this way, so it might be worth a try. The wort will darken less this way, and this was the reason for the article, if I remember correctly. We don't know about all of the complex interactions between wort and hops, and there might be some difference in hop flavors using this method. I'm not endorsing this method, and there will no doubt be a lot of controversy over this method. I merely mentioned the BYO articles as a starting point for you to check out. They sell back issues. Don Hellen Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:13:26 -0500 From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com> Subject: FB's and 4VG HBD'ers: Steve inquires... >My question is this. You guys who mash with a false bottom(FB) >in place - just exactly how do you step the temperature ? (w/o a pump I >mean). There is always some grist under the FB and direct heating is a >formula for scorch and the FB plate retards any heat flow anyway. I know a bunch of HB'ers using FB's and direct heat to do upward temp. step mashes, some more successfully than others, I must say. A certain individual in our HB club, who shall remain nameless, will never live down scotching a certain batch of weizen, the end result of which was "suitable"??? only for cooking. Yes, you can get too heavy handed on the 'ol propane and get a right nice scorch job. I've noticed a scorching problem of late myself with my last two brews. It coincides with my going to a new mash/lauter tun. In doing the welding (DIY anyway), you get that nice burnt-in coating. This was removed with much elbow grease and liberal doses of Bar Keepers Friend. The bottom surface seems rather rough campared with my old tun. I liken the bottom of my old tun to a smooth non-stick (if you will) surface. By comparsion, the bottom of the new tun looks and feels noticebly rougher. I feel this problem will basically fix itself as this "breaks-in" from repeated use and non-abrasive scrubbing/polishing using a white scrubby. BTW, don't use the green ones--too rough IHMO. I know others who use FB's and hand stirring with no problem. I have the ability to use a motorized MashMixer, of my own design, to accomplish mixing and evening out of temperature in the mash column. All I can say is it works, if you observe moderation coupled with stirring. Regarding the 4VG and Ferulic acid rest debate and the production of clove character for weizens... I know a brewing friend of mine who has captured first place for two years running with his weizen. He uses Wyeast 3333. Now, this particular brewer does not follow accepted pitching rates (under pitches). With this particular brew and his results, I'm not about to mess with his formula for success. What I'm wondering about and throwing open to debate is the impact under-pitching might have on producing a more estery, pronounced or characterful beer in general, and as a useful technique for weizens in particular. Note to Dr. Pivo: You got yer ears on? Hoppy Brew Year! Rick Foote Whistle Pig Brewing/Chicken City Ale Raisers Murrayville, GA Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:39:50 -0800 From: "Mike Sharp (Volt)" <a-msharp at microsoft.com> Subject: Pre-poured petri plates Randy asks about a source for pre-poured disposable media. While they don't sell exactly this, http://www.brewingscience.com does sell premade sterile media in a variety of flavors. Each comes with 5 mini plates. Regards, Mike Sharp Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:10:10 -0500 From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com> Subject: double mash an hops I have been racking my brain all day trying to figure this one out, maybe you collective thinkers can help me out? Classic beer 8 scotch ale in the style series is a good book for some history an insight into those malty Scottish an scotch ales. For those of you who use recipes there are some good ones in the back of this book, that's where my question begins. The back of the book talks about a double mash an I want to experiment an try something new but the recipes can't be right? here's one for two 5 gallon batches, one is 1.090 an the other is 1.040 8 3/4 lbs pale malt, 1 1/2 cara pils, 1.6 oz roast barley.......? An that's it? According to my calculations at 85% mash efficiency you would get a beer that was.......1.065 or there about. Even if you assumed a 100% efficiency you'd still get a beer that was 1.077 So how could both these beers be made using this recipe? The method for lautering goes something like this, sparage an run off 4 gallons or so into the first pot, then 3 gallons into the second pot. Heat the second pot(to what temp he doesn't say)an then add back to the mash {re-mash} ( for how long?) an then run off one gallon into the first pot. OK now the first beer is ready to boil? but only 5 gallons? What about evaporation, trub an hop losses? who knows but that first beer should be 1.090. Now stay with me............ sparage the 2nd mash with 5 gallons into the second pot for the other beer that should weigh 1.040. I think after reading it 5 times i understand the process but fail to see how this could work to extract the right amount sugars. Also the second beer is boiled on top of the first beers spent hops? Sounds like a cool idea but how could you calculate IBU's for that one? Personally I don't use recipes so I'm trying to crunch the numbers on my equipment an I believe I figured out how to do it, But I would appreciate the help or advice of anyone who has ever tried this method. Or if you can try to explain how Noonan is right? Thanks in advance an PS: I have read the SWIG method in the recent BYO. Gregman Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:46:53 -0900 From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com> Subject: new wooden kegs! This is just cool... http://www.lehmans.com/ They sell wooden barrels in three types: plain (they say they're great for aging cider), charred (for aging whisky, perhaps?), and paraffin coated (not fitted as tight as the others, so they're sealed with wax). Available in 1, 2, 5, 10, 15 and 30 gallon sizes. (80 character per line limit hit me on the link... search for "kegs" on the site search, or click "Everything Else" on the left, then drill down through "Barrels, Bells and Crocks" > "Barrels" > "Oak Storage Barrels") That would be much cooler than using mini-kegs with my beer engine! hehehe. (They also have wooden bungs and wooden tap/faucets one level up in their store.) No affiliation... just think it's great someone still makes/sells such things in the US. :-) - -- :: Teresa :: http://rant.mivox.com/ Freedom of speech is wonderful... right up there with the freedom not to listen. Return to table of contents
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