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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: Yeast & Maylasia ("Steve Alexander")
  Speed of Temperature Increases and Wort Flow in HERMS ("Kevin Eggemeyer")
  Just blame me! (Bob Sheck)
  Step Mash with a False Bottom (Hayes Antony)
  Fluoride (Hayes Antony)
  Re: Barley that tastes like coffee (Ed Westemeier)
  Re: re: New B3 false bottom ("Arnold Neitzke")
  Pre-poured petri dishes ("Mark Kellums")
  barley taste like coffee (LJ Vitt)
  RE: Why such long boils? (Donald and Melissa Hellen)
  FB's and 4VG (Richard Foote)
  Pre-poured petri plates (Volt)" <a-msharp at microsoft.com>
  double mash an hops ("greg man")
  new wooden kegs! (Teresa Knezek)


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Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 23:51:39 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Yeast & Maylasia

KelvinK in Malaysia is interested in starting a yeast business.

All large breweries and many small breweries manage their own yeast strain.
Little guys may use Wyeast, WhiteLabs or others (and there are probably 2
dozen other yeast vendors) as a source or the strain or else pay a type
culture to keep the strain for them.  NCYC and ATCC are two big culture
houses that have hundreds of brewing strains between them.  Weihenstephan
has a big culture library too.  You can buy a slant of nearly any of these
yeast for a few hundred dollars per slant.

In addition to folks selling slants, starter cultures and slurries there are
dry yeast vendors.  DCL(SafBrew) and Lallemand(Danstar) are two
big names.

The big headache IMO is that to only dry yeasts are practically available at
proper pitching rates for a reasonable price.  All other means require
starters.

The recommended pitching rate for 5 gal of 12P wort is about 340 Billion
*viable* lager cells or 170B ale cells.  Since most HB tends to be of higher
gravity and overpitching does little harm I'd suggest pitching pack sizes
that deliver 400B cells for lager and 200B cells for ales would be ideal for
HB use.

The Wyeast tubes have 45-60B cells and the WL tubes 30B-60B.  You *need* a
starter when using these slurry tubes and I am not satisfied the slurries
remain viable and vital for the 3 or 4 month label date.   Using only slurry
tubes it would cost something like $100US to properly pitch 12 gallons of
pils I regularly make - out of the question.

Smack packs are nice since you can see the pack swell and have some
confidence in the yeast viabilty, but the biggest Wyeast smack pak - the
200ml pack intended for BOPs to pitch into15gal produces only 105B to
120B cells.   Better than the tubes by far, but I don't see BOP packs in the
shops and the 120B cell count is marginal even for 5gal ales.  The XL pak is
45B-60B cells just like the tubes.

Dry yeasts seem like the answer.  They have great shelf life (1yr+) and the
cost is reasonable.  The big problem is that the selection is limited.

Lallemand seems very interested in serving the HB market.  On their website
they have some Q&A from the annual(?) Dr.Clayton Cone's HBD session. Dr.
Cone makes no bones of the fact that the 5gram sachet  (an implied 75B cells
when properly rehydrated) were intended for cheap beer kits.  He openly
recommends starting with 2 sachets(150B) per 5gal of 10P ale and then
suggests trying 3 sachets (225B cells) if the HBer is not satisfied with 2.
Lallemand vends only ale yeasts (no lagers I think), so Dr Cone's pitching
rate advice seems "dead on" to me.   At a cost of $0.70 per sachet I've no
complaints about the cost of pitching Lallemand(Danstar) - it would cost
about $5 to properly pitch 12gal of 15P ale with.  That's very reasonable.
If only they had a wider selection.

DCL is a completley different story in dried yeast.    DCL's website says
 ... "Homebrewing has recently and gradually changed into a means to produce
cheap beers as a most affordable hobby".  Yeah - pretty insulting attitude
toward HBers IMO.  DCL produces several lager strains but only makes one
available to HBers.

DCL suggests pro-brewers pitch ale yeasts at a rate equivalent to 190B cells
per 5gal and lager at about 2X - this seems very reasonable.   For HBers
they suggest one packet per 5gal (115B cells) for ale yeasts.  This is quite
marginal.  I suspect DCL is a great choice for the pro-brewer or the HBer
who knows better than the DCL marketing team.

I have to applaud the guys at Paddock Woods homebrew  who buy the DCL
yeast for pro-brewers and then package these in 75% larger packets.   They
give their customers a better selection *and* a much more reasonable size
product.  That's a great step in the right direction.  Thanks PW for trying
to make up for DCL's market  ignorance. (and yes they ship to the US at
reasonable rates).

Personally I'd like to see DCL ale yeasts in 20gm packets (just as PW packs
them) and the lager strains in 40gm packets - but pitching 2 20gm packs
isn't
a headache as long as the instructions reflect this.  If I used one of these
dry
yeast regularly I'd appreciate being able to buy it larger amounts and again
Paddock Wood Homebrew has it - they sell 500gm bricks of the DCL
yeasts.  The price is a stunning $110Cdn which translates to a more
acceptable $70.15US.  Odd but the brick costs more than the packets if
I calculate right.  You'd blow about $14 pitching 12 gallons of 12P
pils - high, but not outrageous.

- --

Not sure how much this helps Kelvin, but the ideal yeast vendor ...
1/ has a wide selection of strains
2/ sells a proper amount for direct pitching a reasonable price and
3/ the product has a long shelf life

Any company with 2 of these 3 features is a winner today.

 -S



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Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 23:27:22 -0600
From: "Kevin Eggemeyer" <KevinE at AccessTraining.com>
Subject: Speed of Temperature Increases and Wort Flow in HERMS

I have a question for the collective about the ideas behind
recirculating mash systems.  I've searched a little in the archives,
but I'm not exactly sure what term to use.

What I'm interested in knowing more about is how quickly the
temperature can/should be raised using a HERMS type system.  The
limiting factor that I've come across is the speed at which the wort
can be recirculated.  To increase the flow rate, I thought about
having the pump pull from the top of the grain bed and return to the
bottom.  I'm not sure if you'd call this "reverse mashing", "up
mashing", or just plain crazy!  The point being to increase the flow
from the roughly one-half gallon of wort transferred through the heat
exchanger now to several times that volume.  My thought is that by
going in reverse and constantly stirring the mash, it won't compact.
For sparging, the pump would be turned off and the wort would be
allowed to flow by gravity after the grain bed was set.

What I've built so far is a HERMS controlled by a Javelin Stamp (the
Java programmed cousin of the Basic Stamp) and a PC.  I know that I
have the proverbial "solution looking for a problem", but I'm really
into gadgets.  Any assistance with the following questions would be
appreciated.

Any thoughts on recirculating in reverse?

Is it possible to damage the grist or extract undesirables based on
the rough handling that would be required to improve the flow (other
than HSA)?

Is there a maximum to how quickly the mash temperature should be
increased?


Kevin
Wentzville, MO






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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:46:43 -0500
From: Bob Sheck <bobsheck at earthlink.net>
Subject: Just blame me!

Oh! How we have to pay for our sins. . .

Just go to 
http://hbd.org/forums/messages/board-topics.html

choose World Expressions, go to subtopic    "Needs Adjustment"

and we can continue this offline from the real HBD.

Subject: Wankers/Beer topics
           Franklin, etc
           How to insult foreigners and other people on the list
           or any other rant you want to reply to me about. . .

Yep, just ask me how to piss off anyone, I can tell you, I'm an expert.

Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC
bsheck at earthlink.net // [583.2,140.6] Apparent Rennerian
Home Brewing since 1993 //  bobsheck at earthlink.net //



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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:28:16 +0200
From: Hayes Antony <HayesA at aforbes.co.za>
Subject: Step Mash with a False Bottom

Steve Alexander asked, "You guys who mash with a false bottom(FB)
in place - just exactly how do you step the temperature ?  (w/o a pump I
mean).   There is always some grist under the FB and direct heating is a
formula for scorch and the FB plate retards any heat flow anyway."

My mash tun is a scaled down version of the Draymans Brewery mash tun
(http://www.draymans.com/ ). It has a false bottom in place while mashing
occurs. Draymans use a pump to recirculate. The process involves opening the
outlet valve wide for a few seconds to flush out any grist caught
underneath. The gas is then lit under the tun, and the recirculating flow
rate reduced so as not to pull a vacuum (which can also lead to scorching).

I don't bother with a pump for recirculation at the moment. I just use a
jug, and pour back on top gently. (HSA is the least of my worries). I have
not had a scorch yet, and yet I can ramp from 65C to 76C in about 10 minutes
( 149 to 169). (See pictures at
http://www.geocities.com/anthayes/glenbrewery.html)

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg






Confidentiality Warning
=======================
The contents of this e-mail and any accompanying documentation
are confidential and any use thereof, in what ever form, by anyone
other than the addressee is strictly prohibited.



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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:14:50 +0200
From: Hayes Antony <HayesA at aforbes.co.za>
Subject: Fluoride

Our Minister of Health is contemplating requiring our local water boards to
add fluorine to municipal water. Currently our water is quite pleasant (Ca
18; Mg 9; Na 12; SO4 15; Cl 12; HCO3 84) and so the only treatment really
necessary is to remove chlorine - which a carbon filter seems to do well.

I gather that fluorine has been added to US water for some time, but a
search of the archives gives no tips as to how to remove it. Do any of you
bother, and if so, what do you do?

I asked one of the SAB brewers, since they also use municipal water, but his
view was that they could still persuade government that fluorine was not
environmentally friendly. He did say that their carbon filters would not
work.

Any tips?

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg



Confidentiality Warning
=======================
The contents of this e-mail and any accompanying documentation
are confidential and any use thereof, in what ever form, by anyone
other than the addressee is strictly prohibited.



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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 07:27:56 -0500
From: Ed Westemeier <hopfen at malz.com>
Subject: Re: Barley that tastes like coffee

On Tuesday, Nathan Matta wrote:
>  My mother doesn't drink
> coffee for religious reasons, but likes the taste.  She recently found 
> a
> beverage called "BarleyBrew" which is made from 100% barley, and
> looks and brews up pretty much like coffee.  The bad news is that the
> company is out of business, and the stuff is no longer being made.

FWIW, you can find a product at some Oriental food stores called 
"roasted barley tea." The package in front of me contains 52 large 
(10g) bags, each suitable for making a pitcher (1.5L) of tea. 
Ingredients listed are:
1. Barley (no color, no preservative).
Odd taste, but quite nice. I like it as iced tea in the summer.
Product of Japan. If you want to try finding it online, the brand name 
is Shirakiku.



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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:10:03 -0500
From: "Arnold Neitzke" <arnold_neitzke at ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: re: New B3 false bottom

> My question is this. You guys who mash with a false bottom(FB)
> in place - just exactly how do you step the temperature ? (w/o a pump I
> mean). There is always some grist under the FB and direct heating is a
> formula for scorch and the FB plate retards any heat flow anyway.
>
> False-bottoms - I don't see how you guys put up with them !
>
> -S

With a false bottom and no pump, you use containers to recalculate.  I used
a 8 cup measuring cup and a 2 cup measuring cup container.  I would start
filling the 8 cupper and quickly switch to the 2 cupper and keep exchanging
them while dumping the wort back on top.

This is a great pain in the a$$ and I now use a pump (thank you Pico-Brewing
co!)  Pumping is a much preferred method of recalculating.

Brewed my last batch of the year on the 30th, I wanted it to be the 31st but
swmbo said that my brewery was her kitchen that day  :)

Hope you all had a happy new years eve.

Arnold Neitzke
Brighton Mi



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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:58:29 -0600
From: "Mark Kellums" <infidel at springnet1.com>
Subject: Pre-poured petri dishes

Here's a link for prepared media plates. 

http://www.cynmar.com/default.php?cPath=179_108&sort=1a&&page=4

Hope this helps. 

Mark Kellums
Decatur Il.


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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:42:57 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: barley taste like coffee


Nathan is looking for a barley that can be used as a coffee substitution.

I suggest 3 forms:
Roasted Barley -- like commonly used in stouts
Black Patent malt
Chocolate malt

These are the most highly levels of roasted malts that can be found.
Actually, roasted barley is not malted, but I am including it in my
comments about roasted malts.  I suggest trying the first 2 over
chocolate, because roasted barley and black patent malt cause the 
coffee flavor description to come to mind.

I think ANY homebrew supply shop will have these malts available.
Price per pound is likely to be lower than coffee is.  However,
I don't know how much one would need to use to make a coffee like
drink.






=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 11:55:54 -0500
From: Donald and Melissa Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net>
Subject: RE: Why such long boils?

Ralph Davis asked if boil times can be reduced 
for the mash liquor:
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
I understand that bittering hops require a while 
for the proper oils to be fully dissolved....  
(hence some IPAs advertise a "90 minute
boil") however, why not just boil the bittering 
hops for the required long time (and you could 
use less in the brew-water too)  and add the
mash liquor just for the last 20 minutes or 
less? Sterilization will
take place in boiling about 10 minutes . . .

Isn't there something to be gained from not 
overboiling wort?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
There was a couple of articles in Brew Your 
Own magazine that covered
this topic back in October or November. The gist
 of the information was that you can boil your hops
 in water only, but you would need to
reduce your hop quantity by a certain amount 
because hop utilization increases as the wort 
density decreases. Or, you could just boil the
hops for a shorter time period to compensate for this. 

The article stated that some award-winning beers 
have been brewed this way, so it might be worth 
a try. The wort will darken less this way,
and this was the reason for the article, if I 
remember correctly. 

We don't know about all of the complex 
interactions between wort and
hops, and there might be some difference
 in hop flavors using this method. 

I'm not endorsing this method, and there 
will no doubt be a lot of controversy over this 
method. I merely mentioned the BYO articles as a
starting point for you to check out. They sell back issues.

Don Hellen






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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:13:26 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: FB's and 4VG

HBD'ers:

Steve inquires...

>My question is this.  You guys who mash with a false bottom(FB)
>in place - just exactly how do you step the temperature ?  (w/o a pump I
>mean).   There is always some grist under the FB and direct heating is a
>formula for scorch and the FB plate retards any heat flow anyway.

I know a bunch of HB'ers using FB's and direct heat to do upward temp. step
mashes, some more successfully than others, I must say.  A certain
individual in our HB club, who shall remain nameless, will never live down
scotching a certain batch of weizen, the end result of which was
"suitable"??? only for cooking.  Yes, you can get too heavy handed on the
'ol propane and get a right nice scorch job.

I've noticed a scorching problem of late myself with my last two brews.  It
coincides with my going to a new mash/lauter tun.  In doing the welding
(DIY anyway), you get that nice burnt-in coating.  This was removed with
much elbow grease and liberal doses of Bar Keepers Friend.  The bottom
surface seems rather rough campared with my old tun.  I liken the bottom of
my old tun to a smooth non-stick (if you will) surface.  By comparsion, the
bottom of the new tun looks and feels noticebly rougher.  I feel this
problem will basically fix itself as this "breaks-in" from repeated use and
non-abrasive scrubbing/polishing using a white scrubby.  BTW, don't use the
green ones--too rough IHMO.

I know others who use FB's and hand stirring with no problem.  I have the
ability to use a motorized MashMixer, of my own design, to accomplish
mixing and evening out of temperature in the mash column.  All I can say is
it works, if you observe moderation coupled with stirring.

Regarding the 4VG and Ferulic acid rest debate and the production of clove
character for weizens...

I know a brewing friend of mine who has captured first place for two years
running with his weizen.  He uses Wyeast 3333.  Now, this particular brewer
does not follow accepted pitching rates (under pitches).  With this
particular brew and his results, I'm not about to mess with his formula for
success.  What I'm wondering about and throwing open to debate is the
impact under-pitching might have on producing a more estery, pronounced or
characterful beer in general, and as a useful technique for weizens in
particular.  

Note to Dr. Pivo: You got yer ears on?

Hoppy Brew Year!


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing/Chicken City Ale Raisers
Murrayville, GA




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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:39:50 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp (Volt)" <a-msharp at microsoft.com>
Subject: Pre-poured petri plates

Randy asks about a source for pre-poured disposable media.

While they don't sell exactly this, http://www.brewingscience.com does
sell premade sterile media in a variety of flavors.  Each comes with 5
mini plates.  


Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:10:10 -0500
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com>
Subject: double mash an hops







I have been racking my brain all day trying to figure this one out, maybe 
you collective thinkers can help me out?

Classic beer 8 scotch ale in the style series is a good book for some 
history an insight into those malty Scottish an scotch ales.

For those of you who use recipes there are some good ones in the back of 
this book, that's where my question begins.

The back of the book talks about a double mash an I want to experiment an 
try something new but the recipes can't be right?
here's one for two 5 gallon batches, one is 1.090 an the other is 1.040
8 3/4 lbs pale malt, 1 1/2 cara pils, 1.6 oz roast barley.......?
An that's it?

According to my calculations at 85% mash efficiency you would get a beer 
that was.......1.065 or there about.
Even if you assumed a 100% efficiency you'd still get a beer that was 1.077

So how could both these beers be made using this recipe?

The method for lautering goes something like this, sparage an run off 4 
gallons or so into the first pot, then 3 gallons into the second pot. Heat 
the second pot(to what temp he doesn't say)an then add back to the mash 
{re-mash} ( for how long?) an then run off one gallon into the first pot.

OK now the first beer is ready to boil? but only 5 gallons? What about 
evaporation, trub an hop losses? who knows but that first beer should be 
1.090.

Now stay with me............ sparage the 2nd mash with 5 gallons into the 
second pot for the other beer that should weigh 1.040.

I think after reading it 5 times i understand the process but fail to see 
how this could work to extract the right amount sugars.

Also the second beer is boiled on top of the first beers spent hops? Sounds 
like a cool idea but how could you calculate IBU's for that one?

Personally I don't use recipes so I'm trying to crunch the numbers on my 
equipment an I believe I figured out how to do it, But I would appreciate 
the help or advice of anyone who has ever tried this method.

Or if you can try to explain how Noonan is right?

Thanks in advance an PS: I have read the SWIG method in the recent BYO.
Gregman



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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:46:53 -0900
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com>
Subject: new wooden kegs!

This is just cool... http://www.lehmans.com/

They sell wooden barrels in three types: plain (they say they're 
great for aging cider), charred (for aging whisky, perhaps?), and 
paraffin coated (not fitted as tight as the others, so they're sealed 
with wax). Available in 1, 2, 5, 10, 15 and 30 gallon sizes.

(80 character per line limit hit me on the link... search for "kegs" 
on the site search, or click "Everything Else" on the left, then 
drill down through "Barrels, Bells and Crocks" > "Barrels" > "Oak 
Storage Barrels")

That would be much cooler than using mini-kegs with my beer engine! 
hehehe. (They also have wooden bungs and wooden tap/faucets one level 
up in their store.)

No affiliation... just think it's great someone still makes/sells 
such things in the US. :-)
- -- 
:: Teresa ::
http://rant.mivox.com/

Freedom of speech is wonderful...
right up there with the freedom not to listen.


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