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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: Rubbermaid & Igloo 10 gallon coolers ("Fred Bonjour")
  Re: Step Mash with a False Bottom ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: Step Mashin' witha false Bottom ("Scott D. Braker-Abene")
  In defense of dry yeast ("David Houseman")
  Youngs Chocolate Stout (homebre973)
  10 gallon coolers and Phil's Phalse bottoms ("Dan Listermann")
  RE:Rubbermaid 10 gallon cooler ("djandowen")
  re: Speed of Temperature Increases and Wort Flow in HERMS ("Steve Alexander")
  re: Fluoride ("Steve Alexander")
  non-coffee coffee (Marc Sedam)
  A-B Specialty Beers (Rick)
  Lager History ("David Houseman")
  We're not worthy ("Bob Sutton")
  Lost Brew in the Boiler ("Greg Collins")


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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 00:40:09 -0500
From: "Fred Bonjour" <bonjour at myexcel.com>
Subject: RE: Rubbermaid & Igloo 10 gallon coolers

A friend recently bought a Rubbermaid Cooler for conversion.  The
standard Phalse bottom for 10 Gal coolers fits, sort of.

There is a small elevated bump in the middle of the bottom, and the
outside edge is very slightly depressed.  This results in a Phalse
bottom that would not "seal" and allowed grain to underlet the bottom
resulting in a stuck mash.  

The solution seems to be to place a piece of vinyl tubing around the
bottom of the cooler to seal the phalse bottom on. (Pardon the crude
drawing below.

                             
|                           ___  <-- elbow             | <-- cooler side
|       v--Phalse bottom   / --                        |
 \ ------------------------||------------------------ /
  \O    <-- vinyl tubing   ||                       O/
   __----------------------^^----------------------__         <---
Cooler bottom
                            ^ 
                     bump in bottom


My set up is a 10 gallon Igloo cooler (13.25 in. at the top) with a 12
in. Phalse bottom.  The curvature at the bottom has the Phalse bottom
just inside the curvature and I mash with no problem. I just mashed and
sparged 25.5 pounds of grain including 5.25 pounds of Flaked Barley with
no problem.

Having seen both set-up's, and given the choice, I would opt to not use
the Rubbermaid. Search on "Igloo 10 gal cooler" with your favorite
search engine.

Fred
[37, 60.9] Apparent Rennerian

- -----Original Message-----
- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:01:29 -0500
From: "Menzl's" <menzl at concentric.net>
Subject: Rubbermaid 10 gallon cooler

I am going to move into the world of "No-Sparge" mashing and purchased
the required 10 gallon cooler.  The problem I discovered is that the
Igloo cooler has a 13.25 inch diameter where the Phil's Phalse bottom I
have is 12 inches.  The Igloo has since been returned and I do further
study to find a suitable mash tun.

I have done some searching and I really like the price for the
Rubbermaid 10 gallon cooler that Bob Hewitt recommended in HBD #4122 at
http://www.shoplet.com/office/db/gCRUB5379.html.  My main question is if
anyone knows if the 12 inch Phil's Phalse Bottom fits this cooler?  I
would like to avoid buying something over the internet if it is not
going to fit the False bottom that I have.

Thanks in advance!
William Menzl
Midland, Michigan [99.8, 344.8] Apparent Rennerian

- ------------------------------




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 01:27:11 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Step Mash with a False Bottom

Ant Hayes notes ....

> The process involves opening the
> outlet valve wide for a few seconds to flush out any grist caught
> underneath. The gas is then lit under the tun, and the recirculating flow
> rate reduced so as not to pull a vacuum (which can also lead to
scorching).

Sounds reasonable but the question was really how is it done without a
pump.

> I don't bother with a pump for recirculation at the moment. I just use a
> jug, and pour back on top gently. (HSA is the least of my worries). I have
> not had a scorch yet, and yet I can ramp from 65C to 76C in about 10
minutes

Sort of a manual pump.  1C/min is a decent rate (tho' some commercial
hardware designs suggest 2C/min), but it sounds like the recirc is
necessary to remove 'floor grist' and to produce enough convection to even
the temp out.

Is manual recirc a common method to step mash all you FalseBottomers ?

 -Steve



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 04:51:55 -0800 (PST)
From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Step Mashin' witha false Bottom

Heya, 

I have used a stainless false bottom in a converted keg like set up for a
number of years. Re-circulation is the key if you have a flame on the mash. 

Keep the mash at a medium flame and the flow constant. 

Stirring always helps too. 

Pictures of the rigs: http://www.skotrat.com/skot/equipment/Brew_Rig_Pics

Hope this helps. 

 -Scott

=====
"The broken seats in empty rows, It all belongs to me you know"
 - P. Townshend

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page
http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club



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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 07:56:37 -0500
From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam at earthlink.net>
Subject: In defense of dry yeast

Bill Wible says "Dry yeast is a joke."   I disagree.  While Wyeast and White
Labs yeast are both very good; so is today's dry yeast from Lallamand and
DCL.   Wine makers have been using dry yeast for years and continue to do
so.  The dry yeast that comes with some kits may still be the lower quality
stuff that initially gave dry yeast it's bad name, but quality yeast is
quality yeast.  More important, as Steve and others continue to point out is
the volume of the yeast pitched.  And of course the sanitation necessary to
be sure that you're pitching the yeast that you expect and not wild yeasts.
For very high volumes, many local brew pubs are homebrew friendly and will
be glad to fill a pint or quart, sanitized jar with yeast from their
fermenters.  Of course that yeast might just be from DCL or Lallamand to
begin with....

Dave Houseman




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Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 08:55:35 -0500
From: homebre973 at mindspring.com
Subject: Youngs Chocolate Stout

Anyone have any idea how to make a clone of this
beer (Youngs Chocolate Stout) and get the rich smooth chocolate flavor it has
without losing its head?  A great beer!



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 08:58:36 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: 10 gallon coolers and Phil's Phalse bottoms

Phil's Phalse Bottom does not seal on the sides of the vessels so exact
diameter matching is not a problem.  They are convex shaped like an inverted
dish so that they seal on the vessel's bottom.  The 12" is designed for ten
gallon coolers and works just fine in them.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 09:22:59 -0500
From: "djandowen" <djandowen at msn.com>
Subject: RE:Rubbermaid 10 gallon cooler



Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:01:29 -0500
From: "Menzl's" <menzl at concentric.net>
Subject: Rubbermaid 10 gallon cooler

I am going to move into the world of "No-Sparge" mashing and purchased the
required
10 gallon cooler.  The problem I discovered is that the Igloo cooler has a
13.25
inch diameter where the Phil's Phalse bottom I have is 12 inches.  The Igloo
has since
been returned and I do further study to find a suitable mash tun.

I have done some searching and I really like the price for the Rubbermaid 10
gallon
cooler that Bob Hewitt recommended in HBD #4122 at
http://www.shoplet.com/office/db/gCRUB5379.html.  My main question is if
anyone knows
if the 12 inch Phil's Phalse Bottom fits this cooler?  I would like to avoid
buying
something over the internet if it is not going to fit the False bottom that
I have.

Thanks in advance!
William Menzl
Midland, Michigan [99.8, 344.8] Apparent Rennerian

Response:
I recently converted a 10 gal Rubbermaid using a 12 inch false bottom with
which fits fine.  I used a 12 inch stainless bottom from Midwest Supplies.
The bottom of the cooler is slightly rounded which reduces the diameter plus
you need room to fit the bottom under the bulkhead conversion hardware.  I
used the Zymico Kewler Kitz, also from Midwest, for the replacement valve
and bulkhead.  That has been a problem.  The hardware package is
incompatible with the false bottom, thus additional hardware is required,
and leaks are a continue maintenance problem.  If anyone knows of a
different, and hopefully better, source for a replacement valve kit for the
Rubbermaid, I'd appreciate the feedback.

Owen Halpeny
Asheville NC






- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:08:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Speed of Temperature Increases and Wort Flow in HERMS

Kevin Eggemeyer wanted to consider reverse circulation
with his HERMS rig, in an effort to shorten ramp
times:

>What I'm interested in knowing more about is how
>quickly the temperature can/should be raised using a
>HERMS type system.  The limiting factor that I've
>come across is the speed at which the wort can be
>recirculated.  To increase the flow rate, I thought
>about having the pump pull from the top of the grain
>bed and return to the bottom.  (snip) The point being
>to increase the flow from the roughly one-half gallon
>of wort transferred through the heat exchanger now to
>several times that volume.  (snip)
>Any thoughts on recirculating in reverse?

Kevin, trying to recirculate in reverse is fraught
with problems.  Where would the suction inlet of your
system be?  It would (obviously) have to be beneath
the surface of the mash, and be submerged enough that
it would not suck air on pump start-up, when the level
in the tun drops.  You would have to have a screen to
keep the grist out - and posibly result in compacting
the top of the mash.

When you mentioned the flow rate, you did not give a
time period.  Assuming that you meant one half gallon
per minute, that would seem to indicate a restricted
loop.  Granted, I don't know what kind of pump you are
using, but the typical small (1/25th HP) mag drive
pumps frequently used in RIMS/HERMS systems are
capable of 5 to 6 GPM at three feet of head.  If you
are only getting 0.5 GPM flow, you may need to examine
your setup for high head conditions.  How high is your
pump lifting the wort?  Are you using overly
restrictive valves?  If you are using solenoid valves,
be sure that they are rated for the lowest possible
pressure differential, preferably zero.  You also need
to check the coefficient of volume (CV), which will
tell you the maximum flow rate through the valve,
which varies with the diameter of the inner orifice. 
Other items which contribute to high head conditions
are standard port ball valves and the number of ells
in the loop.  And of course using too small a tubing
for your HERMS loop, which should be at least 0.5" OD.

Also, check the delta T on the coil.  With a flow rate
that low, the discharge temp from the HERMS should be
very close to your HL temp.  This *could* lead to
denaturing enzymes, if your HLT is at 170-180 F, so
you would need to either increase the flow rate or
lower the HL temp.

Hope that helps,
Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal





- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 22:33:46 -0500
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: Double mash?

"Greg Man" Asked about Noonan's double
mash approach for a strong Scotch Ale.
 It had me puzzled for a while also.
  My take is as follows: given grist A,
Grist B. Kettle A, kettle B. Mash in grist A
and direct first runnings to kettle A. Run off
spargings and use to mash in grist B. First
runnings of grist B go to kettle A to satisfy
volume for "Heavy" boil.  Excess first
runnings and spargings of grist B go to kettle
B for small beer. 


- ------------------------------
*************************************
- -------






Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 09:48:58 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Speed of Temperature Increases and Wort Flow in HERMS

KevinE writes ....

>What I'm interested in knowing more about is how quickly the
>temperature can/should be raised using a HERMS type system.

I've seen commercial specs at 2C/minute as a required max rate, but there is
no upper bound.  The place where you really need the higher boost rate is
when you're trying to get from below the dead-head zone (around 50C) up to
the saccharification temp (62C-72C roughly).  If you spend much time in the
dead-head zone  when using modern malts your beer will lack body &
foam(head).  Too much proteolysis.

>limiting factor that I've come across is the speed at which the wort
>can be recirculated.  To increase the flow rate, I thought about
>having the pump pull from the top of the grain bed and return to the
>bottom.  I'm not sure if you'd call this "reverse mashing", "up
>mashing", or just plain crazy!  The point being to increase the flow
>from the roughly one-half gallon of wort transferred through the heat
>exchanger now to several times that volume.

I don't get this.  Flow is a rate of volume transfer like one-half gallon
*per minute*.  I haven't measured for a long time but I think you should see
well over 1 gallon per minute in a decent forward-flow false-bottom or
manifold system once the grist bed is set. Any RIMSers, HERMSers have a flow
rate figure handy ?

>My thought is that by
>going in reverse and constantly stirring the mash, it won't compact.
>For sparging, the pump would be turned off and the wort would be
>allowed to flow by gravity after the grain bed was set.

>Any thoughts on recirculating in reverse?

As for reverse flow mashing - I don't think that will gain you much.  I
assume you'll have some sort of screen or manifold at the top of the
mash(false top !).  My hunch is that if you increase the flow rate much
beyond what you are seeing in the forward direction, that you'll just create
gristbed that compacts "upwards".  Gravity acting on the grist bits floating
in wort  is a very minor force compared the force of the wort flow.   Maybe
John Palmer or Dave Harsh has a more qualified thought on the issue of
reversing the flow to gain flow rate.  Stirring the grist while you are
pumping is a formula for a stuck mash I think.

I know a lot of RIMSers use thinner mashes to keep the flow rate up without
compaction.   I also suspect that the false-bottom or manifold design has a
lot to do with the maximum flow rate obtainable.

If you really want a very much higher rate perhaps you could find a pump
that would recirculate the mash - grist and all - a waste pump(maybe you
have and that is what you meant).    Such pumps certainly exist - but
finding a high temp food grade one of the right size may be an issue.  I
suspect this would work fine in a HERMS if you can get the grist to flow.

>Is it possible to damage the grist or extract undesirables based on
>the rough handling that would be required to improve the flow (other
>than HSA)?

A fear that's always in the background for recirculating systems is that the
extra flow could extract extra tannins or that the shear forces may denature
enzymes too quickly (yes it's a real phenomena).  Experience has convinced
everyone that neither issue plagues RIMS designs.   Unlikely you'll have a
problem I think, but you'll just have to try and see.

With a waste pump you might end up extracting more from the 'germ' portion
of the malt as it goes through the pump.  There is more potential for
bitterness to derive from the germ.    That's again just a remote
possibility  - I wouldn't let that keep you from trying.

 -S



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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 12:15:37 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Fluoride

Ant Hayes asks .... re fluoride ..

Fluoride ion is added to muni water at a rate around 1ppm and according to
Dave Miller has no impact on beer flavor even at 10ppm.  As for brewing -
you'll never taste it.

 -S



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Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 14:17:14 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: non-coffee coffee

Try buying some dehusked Carafa III malt.  I think this
produces the closest "coffee" flavor of any of the grains
commonly used.  If not this, then maybe a combination of
roasted barley with a pinch of Special B.



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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:30:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Rick <ale_brewer at yahoo.com>
Subject: A-B Specialty Beers

Just wanted to thank Michael Hartsock for his post in
HBD#4100 about the A-B Michelob Specialty Sampler
pack.  I remembered this while looking for something
unique to bring to the Browns game last week and the
bev store I was at was pretty picked clean. Picked up
the 18pack which comes with 2 nice pilsner glasses for
$17.  

I've got to agree that the All-Malt & Marzen brews are
very good, and I like the others as well.  I second
his recommendation to try it out. The only bummer was
that most of the beers had a "born-on" date of
Aug/Sep.

Go Browns!

Rick Seibt
Bierstein Brewery
Mentor, OH 



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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 21:34:02 -0500
From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam at earthlink.net>
Subject: Lager History

During the golden age of American lagers (late 19th century early 
20th), a banker called on a brewery that wanted a loan to expand. The 
brewery owner was giving the banker a tour and wanted to impress him.
"Our lager beer is so healthful and drinkable, why I'll bet you that
Hans, here, my foreman, can drink a pail of it straight away without
stopping. Can you do that, Hans?" "Chust a minute, if you please, 
Herr Fehrenbach," replied Hans, who then stepped though a door from 
the brewhouse to a side room. A minute later he returned and 
said, "OK, Herr Fehrenbach," proceeded to the brewery tap, drew a 
pailful of beer, tipped it to his mouth and drank it straight down. 
The banker was suitably impressed and the owner beamed proudly with 
his thumbs in his suspenders, thanked Hans, and continued with the 
tour. Later that day, he spoke to Hans, "Thanks for the 
demonstration, but tell me, why did you leave for a minute before you 
drank the beer?" Vell, Herr Fehrenbach, I didn't vant to disappoint 
you mit dat big banker man, so first I had to go and make sure I 
really could do it."





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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 22:01:04 -0500
From: "Bob Sutton" <Bob at homebrew.com>
Subject: We're not worthy

Let's not overlook the superb job Pat and Karl have done in managing the HBD
(and saving us all from the excesses of r.c.b.).

With the new year upon us, it's appropriate to recognize the expenses of
maintaining this awesome service - predominantly the maintenance of the
server equipment and the domain name.

As HBD has no bank account of its own, your donations should be made payable
to Pat Babcock in order for the funds to be used.

Snailmail to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

Thanks guys!

Bob Sutton
Fruit Fly Brewhaus
Yesterdays' Technology Today



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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 22:37:02 -0500
From: "Greg Collins" <gmc123 at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Lost Brew in the Boiler

I am trying to figure out some way to capture that last tad bit of brew
after a boil that my 15 gallon keg leaves behind in the bottom.

I have tried a fitting on the back of the 1/2 ball value with 3/8 copper
tubing (compression) angled down a couple of inches lower with the idea that
it would siphon out some of the portion left behind. Much to my amazement,
the fluid level stopped exactly in the same place as it did before. Now,
really it don't take much to amaze me, but I felt like that should have
worked......

How are other folks getting around this?

Who knows? Maybe If I can get over this minor hurtle it may be possible to
install a false bottom and pump, pitch, aerate, re-circulate, separate and
filter like Jeff Renner does with his boiler......Now how's that for
equipment utilization?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Greg Collins,
Eastern, KY




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