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Contents:
  Again.. HOLD on a sec. (was dry yeast) (Wil)
  Grain Mill ("Eyre")
  Again.. HOLD on a sec. (was dry yeast) (Bill Wible)
  Re:  Mash tun for 10 gallon batches (Bill Tobler)
  Re: Beer Consulting revisited (Bill Tobler)
  Re: very high gravity brewing (Christopher Frey)
  RE:Mash tun for 10 gallon batches (Brian Millard)
  BJCP Levels ("Peter Garofalo")
  Re: Mash tun for 10 gallon batches (Kent Fletcher)
  Grain Mills (Rod Tussing)
  Re: Mash tun for 10 gallon batches (Bill Rogers)
  DCL K-97 Yeast/Liquid Yeasts vs Dry Yeasts (Donald and Melissa Hellen)
  Re: re dry yeaat ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: Iodophor Staining ("Tidmarsh Major")
  Re: Dry Yeast is a joke ("Bridges, Scott")
  Re: efficiency and malt amounts ("Rogers, Mike")
  No Sparge runoff rate/Stated IBU in recipes (william.m.menzl)
  All Grain Newbie ("Dan Listermann")
  Iodaphore staining (Mark Kempisty)
  Reclaiming yeast caution (stupid brewer trick) (Mark Kempisty)
  Re: Reclaiming yeast from one batch to another ("Adam Wead")
  Re: false bottoms (Jeff Renner)
  Re: pump question, dry yeast discussion ("Drew Avis")
  Transfering CO2 from tank to tank ("Sven Pfitt")
  RE: Contentious issues (category 5) (Brian Lundeen)
  yeast treatment (daniel)
  Pitching big, and false bottoms (Dave Darity)
  Superior Lager Yeast (darrell.leavitt)
  RE: Pitching big, and false bottoms ("Mike Sharp")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 22:03:33 GMT
From: Wil at thebeermanstore.com
Subject: Again.. HOLD on a sec. (was dry yeast)

I can't hold back
"Todd" said in HOMEBREW Digest #4139

>Just a quick comment. While I don't doubt that you are exteremely reputable
>and ethical in your LHBS business, it sends a bad message when you talk
>about being both a homebrew shop owner, *and* that you always steer folks
>towards the more expensive liquid yeasts. Talk about having a ton of
>expereince in the homebrewing hobby, how many years you've been a BJCP
>Judge, etc, etc... But when you throw in the fact that you stand to profit
>from steering your customers away from an inexpensive product towards a more
>profitable product, it sends up a credibility red-flag (in my book, at
>least). (Most dealers do this, FWIW)

For God sakes Todd, Where do you work, what product or service do you
or the company you work for supply? Do you or your company only supply
ONE product or service? Do you or your company have one product that's
better and cost more than other products or services.  Do you or your
company have a product that YOU or they feel works great and you would
like to tell your customers about that one product?. Do you or your
company want to succeed? to make money? to grow? Do you or your
company want your customers to be happy with the products you sell.
Does ANYONE in your company sell stuff they feel is inferior and look
you in the eye and tell you its NOT? I hope not. Is it OK for you or
your company to make a profit or a living but not other people? Is it
OK for other people to make a profit on other people but not you?
   This man stated why he moved people toward a product that he felt
better selling and he felt better selling it because in his experience
it makes BETTER beer. God knows, as well as all LHBS owner know we
don't make a killing on liquid yeast.  (I make $1.71 on one tube of WL
before I pay rent ,or phone, or me or many other bills. If you would
like the brake down I will e-mail it to you)
Would some one please tell me WHEN it became politically incorrect for
and man to try and make a living or, Heaven forbid a profit.
I get very tired of seeing people slam shop owners for making a
profit,big or small. Where do these people think that paycheck they
get every one to two weeks comes from...perhaps your company or the
one you work for..dair I say it, makes a profit!!!
I would be willing to say that 90% of the people that come into my
store make MUCH more money than I do, they have a nicer house and
drive a nicer car. But they have one thing I don't have...A BOSS, and
that boss wants them to make a profit......and sell that HIGH end unit
or service and he PUSHES them to do it!. Its what make this part of
the world go around.
I love my job, my store and my customers and would not have it any
other way and I will tell my customers what it is I sell that makes
better beer no matter what it cost, and they expect me too!
Wil Kolb
The Beer Man
Plaza at East Cooper
607 B Johnnie Dodds Blvd
Mt. Pleasant SC 29464
843-971-0805
Fax 843-971-3084

Wil at maltydog.com
www.maltydog.com
www.thebeermanstore.com
Wil at thebeermanstore.com

God bless America!


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Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:17:37 -0500
From: "Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Grain Mill

Has anyone got any experience with the KitchenAid grain mill attachment for
that big ol' blender my wife (and yours) inevitably has in the kitchen? Sure
would be nice if that mill would serve my purposes too..

Mike
554.8, 89.2 Apparent Rennarian,
or, conversly, Barkhamsted, CT



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 17:55:46 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Again.. HOLD on a sec. (was dry yeast)


>> But when you throw in the fact that you stand to profit
>> from steering your customers away from an inexpensive
>> product towards a more profitable product, it sends up
>> a credibility red-flag

In fact, the markup is higher on dry yeast!  It is also
easier to store and ship, and has a longer shelf life.
If it were about money, we'd be trying to steer people
TO the dry yeast!
 
>I get very tired of seeing people slam shop owners for making a
>profit, big or small

And people don't realize exactly what a SMALL profit we make
most of the time!  We don't plot to make a killing by adding
a whole $3 to your order with a tube of liquid yeast!

I've been on about internet competition, big places who give out
free, full-color catalogs that I *wish* I could afford to have
printed, offer free shipping, which small places like us can't
do, etc.  Everybody runs to the mail order houses, then gripes
because they don't have a local shop, after the local shop goes
out of business because they're not making anything - especially
during the summer.

Wanna see my books from July and August???  It was 98 degrees
here every day for 3 weeks, and NOBODY was brewing ANYTHING -
wine, beer,  mead, - NOTHING.  I might as well have closed up
and gone on vacation for 3 or 4 weeks.  But I have bills to
pay, so I can't.

There's NOT much of a markup on this stuff, despite what
people think!  How much do people think we make on 10 lbs
of grain that we sell for $9, or an ounce of hops we sell
for $1.50?

We're not scheming to get rich by trying to 'trick' you into
paying an extra $3 for liquid yeast.  That's absolutely ridiculous!
We recommend the liquid yeast because it makes better beer.
Period.

>I would be willing to say that 90% of the people that come into my
>store make MUCH more money than I do, they have a nicer house and
>drive a nicer car. But they have one thing I don't have...A BOSS,

They also probably have paid time off, health insurance, life
insurance, and a 401K or retirement plan.  I gave all that up
the day I opened my own business.  But...

>I love my job, my store and my customers and would not have it any
>other way and I will tell my customers what it is I sell that makes
>better beer no matter what it cost, and they expect me to!

Here, Here.  

Bill



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Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 16:56:44 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re:  Mash tun for 10 gallon batches

Brian Schar is thinking about moving to all grain, and said...

>The consensus on HBD seems to be that the 10-gallon Gott coolers are the
>thing to use for all-grain brewing.  However, I'm not going to be able to
>fit enough grain in one of those for a 10-gallon batch of beer.  From what I
>hear, the Gott coolers hold anywhere from 17-25 pounds of grain--not enough
>grain for any but the lightest beer styles.  snip..

Brian, 23 or 24 pounds of grain in a ten gallon pot is bout right, but if
you have 78% efficiency, using 24 # of grain gives you a predicted OG of1067
for 10 gallons.  That's not in the category of "any but the lightest beer
styles"  If ALL your beers are higher than that, then you a need a bigger
pot.  You can get about 32 pounds in a 15 gallon pot.  That will give you a
1090 beer.  Now, if just some of your beers are higher than 1065, you could
always opt to make a little less at a higher gravity.  Using that same 24
pounds and making only 7 gallons instead of 10 gallons, will give you a
predicted OG of 1096.  And 5 gallons puts you in the Barleywine range.
Actually, I think a 10 gallon mash tun is a great size for most beers making
10 gallon batches.  I use a 10 gallon Polarware Pot, but, I also have a 15
gallon pot, just in case. :>)

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 17:08:38 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject:  Re: Beer Consulting revisited

On Beer Consulting,

    Actually,  $10 is a good price to have your beer tasted and rated.  But,
you can do just as good by entering your beer in Beer Competitions.  You'll
get 3 or 4 sheets back telling you all about your beer from different
judges.  This is a good way to get an idea as to how you are doing. The big
plus is you might win a medal! (And you also have to brew to style, of
course)  

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 20:46:56 -0500
From: Christopher Frey <crispy275 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: very high gravity brewing

I have had a fair amount of practice at Super High Gravity beers, 
having done a series of "experiments" with a gallon of Imperial Stout 
and a few gallons of a super strong scotch ale.

A year ago several of us (David Cords, Scott Day, propprietor of Brew & 
Grow in Livonia and Steve Close) boiled down an absurd amount of wort 
and sugars down to just about five gallons of over 20% barley wine 
after oh, 6 or seven raackings. This is no joke, but Scott threw in 36 
ounces of some 13%AA pellets into what started at 12 gallons of initial 
wort, filtered through 40 lbs. of grains and 3 or 4 cans of liquid malt 
extract. Our SG was 1.160 and we added almost 15 pounds of candi 
sugars, DME and other sugars (3 lbs and a few quarts of water, boiled 
15m, ice bathed to 75o and then poured onto the cake, wait for takeoff 
and rack the rest back onto the cake. We did this every few weeks).

Each time we racked, throwing the new batch on the yeast cake 
(originally we started with 1056 (I think), and then after a few weeks 
we feed the cakes with the WLP 099 SHGY. It kept chewing the wort and 
we kept feeding it, until this last summer, when, much to my surprise, 
it was ready, balanced and, as Tony the Tiger said "GREAT!". One hint - 
don't bother priming these suckers much unless you are really sure it 
has eaten all the sugars it can!

I recently brewed a 14 gallon batch of Strong Scotch ale, hitting 1.121 
starting gravity. New to me this year was the addition of what I 
call "The Twaddler", a 30 inch plastic rod with two little paddles on 
the end that hang down flat. Hook that sucker up to your power drill 
and you will areate like a mother! I have always stepped up yeasts days 
in addvance and usually have 1+ liters of each yeast I plan on using. 
In this case, I threw the 099 straight onto the smaller carboy (WLP 
recommends NOT using this yeast for this style - I suspect the malts 
will get quite chewed up, as it attenuates at 80%+). The other two used 
appropriate yeasts.

So, there they sit, looking popped in primary, so this weekend they 
will get transfered and I will take gravity readings and report on that 
and their taste profiles so far. And by the way, this batch I only 
utilized 7 ounces of fuggles (6.6AA leaf) in the boil, so I am looking 
for a great Strong Scotch Ale that will make it in a keg to Chicago, 
along with the recent Triple, Nearly Nirvana Pale Ale...you get the 
picture. Sees youse all in Chi Town this June! 



- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Date: Tuesday, January 7, 2003 9:49 am
Subject: Re: very high gravity brewing

> Chris
> 
> Don't know if you read HBD regularly.  I thought you might be
> interested in answering this post in today's.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> >Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 02:06:53 -0500
> >From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
> >Subject: very high gravity brewing
> >
> >Greetings,
> >
> >Having made a smoked potato beer, a wasabi beer, and a blueberry
> >braggot (not all of them successful), I'm now interested in
> >making a *very* high gravity beer, something on the order of 20%.
> >Anyone else done this?
> >
> >White Labs makes a yeast (WLP099) that is supposed to go to 25%
> >and their web site ( http://www.whitelabs.com/gravity.html )
> >lists these suggestions:
> >
> >*Aerate very heavily, 4 times as much as with a normal gravity
> >beer. Less oxygen dissolves into solution at high gravity.
> >*Pitch 3-4 times as much yeast as normal.
> >*Consider aerating intermittently during the first 5 days of
> >fermentation. This will help yeast cells during a very
> >difficult                                      fermentation.
> >Aerate with oxygen for 30 seconds or air for 5-10 minutes.
> >*Higher nutrient levels can allow yeast to tolerate higher
> >alcohol levels. Use 2 times the normal nutrient level. This
> >is                                      especially important when
> >using WLP099 to make wine and mead, which have almost no nutrient
> >level to begin with.
> >*Do not start with the entire wort sugar at once. Begin
> >fermentation with a wort that would produce a 6-8% beer, and add
> >wort (it can be concentrated) each day during the first 5 days.
> >This can be done together with aeration. This is mandatory if the
> >reported 25% ABV is to be achieved.
> >
> >All these suggestions seem very sensible. My only additional
> >thoughts would be to repitch an appropriate yeast(s) each time
> >more wort is added. I'd like to hear from anyone who has made (or
> >tried to make) a very high gravity beer. TIA.
> >
> >Cheerio!
> >Peter A. Ensminger
> >Syracuse, NY
> >http://hbd.org/ensmingr
> 
> -- 
> Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
> "One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
> 



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Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 20:13:22 -0500
From: Brian Millard <bjmillard at cox.net>
Subject: RE:Mash tun for 10 gallon batches

I  have been brewing all grain for 10 years. I uses a 55 Quart Converted 
rectangular Cooler. I use copper tubing in the bottom for drainage. It 
been working fine for 10 years and it cost about half the price of the 
10 gallon Gott cooler. Also there is plenty of room to mash any type of 
Brew you want to make.




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Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:40:27 -0500
From: "Peter Garofalo" <pgarofa1 at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: BJCP Levels

In today's HBD, Brian Lundeen says:

>As for being "BJCP Recognized, just promoted", all that means is that you
>didn't achieve the requisite 60% mark on your first attempt(s), and scored
>somewhere in the 60-69% range on your latest try. I would say somewhere in
>that missing 30+% are the reasons why you hang on to such beliefs, Bill. I
>know a BJCP Certified judge (that's 70-79%) who uses DCL yeasts almost
>exclusively. Are you saying he can't pick out phenolics?

I have few comments:

First off, I believe that Bill mis-stated his recent promotion, as he was
recently promoted to the Certified level. That means that he achieved _at
least_ a 70 on the exam (no upper range) and has at least five experience
points, half of which must be from judging. Examinees commonly assume an
upper range to exam scores that does not exist, but only a minimum score
(plus experience points) is required for each level.

There is no way that Brian or anyone else can presume Mr. Wible's exam score
from his statement. It may be that he scored a 99, but only has 5 experience
points. That can be his secret...;-)

Obviously, this is a point of much debate. Dry yeasts have apparently come a
long way from the Red Star Ale yeast that I first used. By the way, I later
realized that it led to phenolic beers. That yeast was generally high in
contamination, I believe. While the most common cause of phenolic flavors is
probably "wild" yeast, chlorophenols have a somewhat similar flavor, but are
objectionable in parts per billion. They can only occur when a source of
chlorine is present, such as highly chlorinated public water or incompletely
rinsed chlorine-based sanitizer (such as bleach).

I think the dialogue spurred by Bill's comment is quite interesting.

Cheers,

Peter Garofalo
BJCP Western Exam Director
Syracuse, NY



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Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 18:56:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Mash tun for 10 gallon batches

Brian wants to brew 10 gallon all grain batches:

"From what I hear, the Gott coolers hold anywhere from
17-25 pounds of grain--not enough grain for any but
the lightest beer styles.  Ideally, I'd like to be
able to get some kind of cooler, screw in the Zymico
fitting and Bazooka ( to avoid messing with the false
bottom), and mash.  Any recommendations?"

I mash both 5 and 10  batches in a rectangular cooler.
 The one I use is a 56 quart model wiht extra
insulation.  The temp of a 20 pound mash doesn't drop
more than a degree F over a 90 minute rest.  I have
mashed as much as 30 pounds of grist.  Slotted copper
pipe manifolds are very easily and inexpensively
contructed, and are (IMHO and experience) more
difficult to "stick" than a perforated false bottom in
a cylindrical tun.  When our club is doing large brews
we use coolers in the 120 quart range with the same
manifold setup.

Hope that helps,
Kent
brewing in So Cal



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Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:08:54 -0800 
From: Rod Tussing <RodT at pplant.UCDavis.edu>
Subject: Grain Mills

I asked about grain mills about a year ago and got many informative
responses from the collective - THANKS.
I never did buy a mill last year and now am revisiting the idea and looking
for feedback from any millers out there.

The mills I am currently considering are:
Automatic (St. Pats) Roller Mill 
Cankandstein CGM-3E
Barley Crusher

I would like to hear from users of any of these mills (or other mills for
that matter) regarding your experiences.
The 3 roller design offered by Crankandstein is intriguing and I would
really like to hear from any "monster" users out there.
 

Rod Tussing
Sacramento, CA

[1975.1, 275.1] Miles Apparent Rennerian


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Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:38:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Bill Rogers <bill6beers at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Mash tun for 10 gallon batches

Brian Schar writes:
<snip>
>I would like to step up and start making some good all-grain
>beer.  My problem is that I'm not sure what to use for a mash tun.
>
>The consensus on HBD seems to be that the 10-gallon Gott coolers are the
>thing to use for all-grain brewing.  However, I'm not going to be able to
>fit enough grain in one of those for a 10-gallon batch of beer.  
<snip>

Many people in our homebrew club have been using 48-52qt rectangular picnic
coolers to good effect.  Various types of manifolds have been cobbled together
with <$10 worth of plastic or copper plumbing tubing from the local home
improvement store.  Make a pitchfork shape out of them, or an "H", or a fancy
4-tube model with the 4 ends connected by another tube.  Saw slits or drill
holes in the underside of all your pipes then run a connector piece to a ball
valve on the outside of the convenient factory-installed drain.  You'll find
these will hold lots of grain for those 10-gallon batches of beer.  And they
hold temps very well for an hour or more. 

Bill Rogers
Madison, WI




=====
"Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents,
and everyone is writing a book."

- -- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, and writer
(106-43 B.C.)



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Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 00:12:35 -0500
From: Donald and Melissa Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net>
Subject: DCL K-97 Yeast/Liquid Yeasts vs Dry Yeasts

Drew Avis writes:

Don Hellen and H. Dowda ask about US sources for the
complete DCL line, including K-97.  Can't help you there,
but if you can't find one, I wouldn't be afraid to order
from Canada.  I've ordered stuff from the US that has
showed up here in 3 days, and shipping (via US Post *NOT*
UPS) is reasonable.  Add the exchange rate discount, and
you're doing well.  BTW PW *did* carry K-97, and may still
do so - although they have an excellent web site it's not
always up to date - I always call in my order and get
clarification on what's available (often lots of stuff not
on the site).
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not afraid to order from Canada, at least during the
more temperate months, but Paddock Woods told me that DCL
asked them to stop repackaging the K-97 yeast. It was only
available in 500 gm bricks and they were repackaging it for
the rest of us who didn't want to buy a large amount like
that. 

Someone told me that a US supplier did offer it (I won't
mention the name for fear that DCL will get on their case
also) and I will be contacting them.

By the way, I've made many good beers with dry yeasts, and
some with liquid as well. One brew won an award with dry
yeast. I'm sure I could have used a liquid yeast and done as
well.

I tend to use liquid for lagers, dry for ales, but liquid
for some special ales. I'm trying out a dry yeast for a
Kolsch right now, and I'd like to try a DCL K-97 for a
Kolsch sometime soon.

I hope that as production methods improve, we can see more
quality dry yeasts for various types of ales and lagers.
They're great for wines and meads, and I wouldn't switch for
either of those two beverages.

Don





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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 03:15:01 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: re dry yeaat

Helomech says ...

>... DRY YEAST ...
>You just need the right one, and to make a starter with it.

You don't "need" the starter when you pitch enough rehydrated
yeast.

[on direct pitching dry yeast]
> Yes you sure can, but if you rehydrate it and add some cooled sterile wort
a
> few hours before you need to pitch it, you start with a bigger batch of
> cells and get a swifter / better fermentation (in my opinion).

According to Dr.Cone and and many commercial DCL dry yeast users
you don't need to the sort of acclimitization you are suggesting.   The
dry yeast are not in the same dormant state as a dormant flocculated
slurry.   Also you aren't making much extra yeast mass in "a few hours".

> You can also just sprinkle dry yeast on top of your wort and wait 3 days
for
> it to start a decent fermentation [...]

You're suggesting underpitching and expecting a longer fermentation
produces the same flavor results as proper pitching.  It doesn't and
the evidence is clear.

> By the way, next time you want to answer something I post - do it in the
> group.

I did - check the CC: line next time.

 -S



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Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 07:10:36 -0600
From: "Tidmarsh Major" <tidmarsh at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Iodophor Staining

Paul R asks about staining caused by Iodophor. I've used it, and most 
of
the staining that occurs is in plastic brewery equipment that soaks 
in the
iodine solution (e.g., hoses & plastic fermenters). 

I have not noticed any staining of floors or sinks. I don't have a 
laundry sink, so I don't know how susceptible one would be to 
staining. I have had some staining of light-colored laminate counter 
tops,
primarily from drips of concentrated Iodophor running down the 
bottle.
These stains eventually evaporated out over a few weeks.

Tidmarsh Major
Tuscaloosa, Ala.




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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:38:26 -0500 
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: Re: Dry Yeast is a joke



>Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 11:24:11 -0500
>From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
>Subject: Re: Dry Yeast is a joke
>
>Ok, enough is enough.
>
>Let's move on to one or more of the other
>thoroughly beaten dead horses again, like:
snip
>
>Let's have some more opinions and rehash these same, tired
>old dead arguments again.
>
>Geeks.
>
>Bill

Gee, Bill.  You are really endearing yourself to your clientele...  

When you make a provocative statement, you shouldn't be surprised if you
receive some response challenging your assertions.  If you don't want to be
put in the position of discussing the basis of your conclusions, feel free
to keep them to yourself.

BTW, it should also come as no surprise to you, especially if you've been
reading the HBD long, that many homebrewers who participate in internet
forums are of the geeky persuasion.  Did you really think that was a
revelation?    

FWIW, I mostly use liquid yeast for the variety of strains available.  Since
I typically brew in 10-12 gal batches, I always make a starter, even if use
a "pitchable" size liquid yeast.  I have and will continue to use dry if I
don't have time to make a proper starter.  I always keep some dry yeast
around as a back-up.

Scott



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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:55:35 -0500 
From: "Rogers, Mike" <mike.rogers at eds.com>
Subject: Re: efficiency and malt amounts

The bottom line is the % of fermentable vs. non fermentable ingredients
contributed to the total batch.  Especially if you have a lot of non
fermentables (sweeteners, spices, etc.),,, you will not have enough sugars
produced by your base and add on malts to produce the volume to make your
desired batch size with the same color, bitterness, spice, etc.   

Your example.
++++
So if the recipe is 10# pale 1# roasted barley at 90%, is it 20# and 2# at
45% efficiency or is it 20# and still 1#.
++++

Yes, according to Pro*Mash's math, you would double the content.  2 row
English Pale malt has 1.038 possible fermentables  at 100% efficiency with a 3
SRM color rating.  English Roasted Barley malt has 1.029 possible
fermentables  at 100% efficiency with a 575 SRM color rating.  Your 10lb Pale
and 1 lb Roasted equates to a 40 SRM, same is true if you double both
ingredients.

The same would not be true if you were including non malt adjuncts.  Just
make sure that you add the appropriate amount of hops for the amount of wort
you are able to extract.    

Use Pro*Mash for recipe formulation.  For $20 something, it is excellent.
You can download a free copy to do 5 batches (I believe).   

Mike Rogers
Cass River Homebrewers
Mid-Michigan
www.hbd.org/cassriverhomebrewers/ <www.hbd.org/cassriverhomebrewers/> 
mailto:mike01.rogers at yahoo.com <mailto:mike01.rogers at yahoo.com> 




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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 09:03:11 -0500 
From: william.m.menzl at dowcorning.com
Subject: No Sparge runoff rate/Stated IBU in recipes

First, thanks to ALL for their opinions on every subject.  Being new
at this I like to hear both side/everyone's arguments and I learn from
both.

No on to my two questions.  I made a batch of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale
using the recipe in "Clone Brews" modified for No Sparge using
the calculations in John Palmers "How To Brew".  When doing my
regular sparging method, my runoff rate was 1.5 to 2 cups per minute.
When doing No-Sparge, can I increase that rate (and to what rate) or
do I still need to go slow to capture my "normal" amount of sugar?
I am looking for an area to speed up my brew day and this looks like
it might be an area of opportunity.

Second question.  I have built myself a spreadsheet of the
utilization calculations found in "How to Brew" and they
agree with the bitterness formulae found in the front of
"Clone Brews".  Problem is that when I put a recipe in to my
spreadsheet, the IBU's it calculates is not near, and sometimes,
very far away than what the recipe indicates.  Now it is entirely
possible my spreadsheet is off, and I haven't tried the same thing
with ProMash (I will soon) but maybe someone has come across this
already and has a quick answer.  I can provide data and examples but
I will leave it at that for now in case someone has dealt with this
(since both are popular books) and save some bandwidth for others
as it has been getting up there lately.

Thanks in advance and Thanks to all those who replied to me about the
Rubbermaid/Igloo cooler.  I used the Igloo cooler and it worked great!

William Menzl
Midland, Michigan [99.8, 344.8] Apparent Rennerian


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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 09:07:34 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: All Grain Newbie

 "Gilbert Milone II" <gilbertmilone at hotmail.com> asks about poor extraction
from all grain batches.  Easily 9 times out of 10 the cause of this problem
is insufficient crushing.  Usually new all grain brewers are trying to
follow the "just barely crush it" advice you frequently read in books.  This
may have been good advice for the difficult to adjust Corona mills, but will
cause very poor extraction.  You should adjust the crush until you find it
difficult to see what appears to be uncrushed corns and those that you do
see appear undersized.  Otherwise a lot of starch ends up locked up in the
your mill is unadjustable or is a pain to adjust, run the grain through more
than once.

Go through your spent grains and look for corn ends.  If you find them, you
can squeeze them and produce a blob of starch that you paid for and did not
get.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 10:23:21 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Iodaphore staining

On brew days I fill up a wallpaper soaking tray with Iodaphore sanitizer
(great for sanitizing those long items) and throw my airlock in there.
By the time the fermenter is ready for it the airlock has a reddish
tinge to it.  This seems to fade over the course of fermentation.

When I go to sanitize my plastic bottling bucket I make sure I have
about two gallons of water in it before I add the Iodaphore so there is
some dilution before it actually touches the plastic.  I also make sure
I pour it in very close to the surface so I do not splash it.

Yes, the undiluted stuff will stain very fast.

- --
Take care,
Mark






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Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 10:35:31 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Reclaiming yeast caution (stupid brewer trick)

Wow, two posts in a day...

I recently tried to save some 1056 from a light ale I made.  I swirled
up the remaining liquid in the fermentor and poured the contents into a
two gallon zip lock plastic bag.  I let it sit in the main fridge for a
day and it settled out very nicely but my wife asked me to move it to my
small beer fridge (a cube fridge) in the basement.

A floppy bag of yeast does not sit well on the particularly narrow shelf
in my cube bridge (this is an older model and has a smaller compressor
than more recent ones I've seen), so I placed it behind the double row
of bottles in there.  Well, in its shifting around one of the points on
the crown caps poked a hole in the bag and let the liquid drain out.
The mess wasn't too bad, but I didn't want to risk using the potentially
infected yeast on another batch.

Some sort of box or shallow basket may be in order for using bags to
hold yeast.

- --
Take care,
Mark






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Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 08:36:08 -0700
From: "Adam Wead" <a_wead at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Reclaiming yeast from one batch to another


I've been doing this for several months now, and it really cuts down on 
costs, since you don't have to pay $6 for a batch of yeast each time your 
brew.

I have two methods:  The first uses 5 oz. mason jars, the kind used for 
making jelly.  I boil about 12 of them to sanitize, then fill the bottoms 
with 1/4 inch of a mini-wort solution of malt extract, yeast nutrient, and 
gelatin.  I put the lids on while it's still hot and then stick them in the 
fridge to chill.  I can now use these "slants" to culture different varities 
of yeast.

I can take one Wyeast pack and make it into several by saving a about a 
teaspoon of the yeast solution and "innoculating" each slant with it.  
Basically, you remove the lid on a fresh slant, after it's warmed up from 
being in the fridge. Take a santized spoon and dip it in the yeast solution. 
  Then rub the spoon with the solution on the surface of the gelatinized 
wort in the mason jar.  Put the lid back on and leave it at room 
temperature.  In a few days, you'll see some white yeast growing on it and 
lid will begin to buldge.  At that point, put it back in the fridge and it 
can safely stay there for several months.

Then, about a week before brew day, take out the slant and let it warm up.  
Make a starter.  When cooled, pour and little bit of it in your mason jar 
slant, swirl/scrape to get the yeast in solution, then pour back into the 
rest of the starter.  I've used this techinique lots of times and had good 
results.  Just make sure everything is sanitized.  Some suggest even 
sterilizing with boiling water and flaming the lids of the jars and so 
forth.  I haven't gone that far and haven't had any mishaps...(knock on 
wood)

The second technique, which is easier, is one I got from Jeff, who posted it 
a few months ago.  When a beer is at a high krausen, take a sanitized 
slotted spoon or some such other utensil, and collect the yeast from the top 
of the beer.  Scoop it into a sanitized mason jar...or heck, I even use old 
mayonise jars, boiled of course, to clean and sterilze them.  Then just 
throw it in the fridge and your done.  You might have to "burp" the jars so 
they won't explode.  You can store the jars in plastic bags just in case...

Then you can make a starter from the the slurry leftover in the jar.  Always 
check the starter before you brew...if it's looking or smelling funky, you 
might have some contaminated yeast.  That way you've only lost a starter and 
not a whole batch of beer.

Happy Yeast Ranching!

adam




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Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 10:36:37 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: false bottoms

"Christian Rausch" <christian at rauschbiercompany.com> asks:

>Secondly does anyone have any thoughts about false bottom construction?

For a really different false bottom construction, check out

http://makeashorterlink.com/?G37321203

Feeling frisky this am.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:17:04 -0500
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: pump question, dry yeast discussion

Darrell Leavitt asks about the March pump w/ a polysulphone face.  This
appears to be the exact same pump that Moving Brews sold for years to
hundreds of happy homebrewers.  I use the same model (but with a bronze
face), and a couple of other brewers around here have the polysulphone
model - we're all ecstatically happy with our pumps.  It's interesting to
see that pump prices have risen lately- the bronze version last year was
$119, and I notice their polysulphone version is now $129.  Perhaps because
of a lack of competition?

And on the topic of dry yeast (again) - though Bill Wible would like the
discussion to end (can't take the heat, Bill?  You can always hit "page
down", at least until you try a decent dry yeast & come over to the dark
side) I think that it's been an excellent exchange of information.  Clearly
there is much more variety and higher quality today.  As Mike Racette points
out, C&B has carried these yeasts for over quite some time, but homebrew
shops have been slow to adopt them, and only a couple of types are available
in homebrewer-sized packs (11 gr).  Our local homebrew club has resorted to
ordering bricks of other types, and re-packaging them into smaller amounts
with a vacuum sealer (PW carries bricks, which is a very economical way to
buy these yeasts).  Hopefully at some point DCL will clue in that there is a
market, and will sell their full line in 11 gr packs.  Maybe the AHA could
lobby on our behalf?

Finally, LJ Levitt wonders if DCL is different from Danstar?  Yes, LJ,
Danstar is made by Lallemand, DCL is the maker of the Saflager, Safale, and
Safbrew line of yeasts (a thoroughly confusing branding and naming
strategy).  And you can make very good weizens and koelch with some of these
dry yeasts to boot.  Belgians - that's another story.

Cheers!
Drew Avis, Merrickville, Ontario ~ http://www.strangebrew.ca


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Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 11:51:52 -0500
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Transfering CO2 from tank to tank

My son used to be into paintall, and at one time we had a 100# Dip Tube CO2 
tank in the basement for filling the smaller paintball tanks, along with a 
CO2 Transfer assembly. The Transfer assembly is a set of high pressure lines 
with the apporopriate control valve and bleed valve for bleeding the air out 
of the system before begining a transfer.

Fortunatly he has moved on from the sport (expensive) and after turining in 
the Dip Tube tank, I got to wondering about transfering from a standard 
tank.

A dip tube tank is a tank with a tube from the valve all the way to the 
bottom of the tank to pick up liquid CO2 instead of taking the gas from the 
top of the tank.

I use the Paintball CO2 transfer assembly and made an adapter to hook the 

I have to invert the 20# CO2 tank to perform the transfer, since it has no 
dip tube.

I actually only get around 60% transfer before it stops, so my 5# tank only 
gets 3# of fresh CO2. However, it is well worth it.

I wear heavy leather gloves and eye protection in case of an incident.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck






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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:53:56 -0600 
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Contentious issues (category 5)

Bill Wible, the Keeper of the Bridge of Death, writes:

> Stop!
> Who would cross the Bridge of Death
> Must answer me
> These questions three
> Ere the other side he see.
> 
>  - Which is better - liquid Malt Extract or Dry?

Dry, of course.

>  - Do homebrewers really need to worry about hot side aeration?

Emphatically, yes.

>  - What is the best brewing software?

ProMash... No, I mean, StrangeBreeeeeeeeeeewaaaaaaaggggggghhhhhhh!!!!

And thus, Brian was cast into the Gorge of Eternal Peril, or as it is
commonly known, rec.crafts.brewing. ;-)

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 12:29:27 -0500 (EST)
From: daniel at buffnet.net
Subject: yeast treatment

Since this has been brought up yet again I thought I would ask a
question based on the technique I use. For the most part I use dry yeast 
and have had good results with many batches of beer and mead. My
technique though may be a little different. In my extract brews, just a 
couple of minutes into the boil I pour off about a liter of wort and cut 
it with maybe a liter of water, and cool it. When it is at 80deg or so 
I'll pitch an envelope into the starter and continue with the boil, add 
hops, cool and so forth on the wort. Almost always by that time the 
starter has an inch or so of foam and is very opaque with supended  cells.
Am I fooling myself in thinking that the yeast has significantly 
multiplied in that time or what? I have found at least this is a good 
indication of further problems with the yeast, since if I see lots of 
activity it will be a good ferment and if it has low activity, it will  be
a problem. Any thoughts?





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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:45:01 -0600 
From: Dave Darity <dave at jamesbaker.com>
Subject: Pitching big, and false bottoms

Christian R. asked for opinions on false bottoms,  I thought I would throw
in my .02$.  I have been using a false bottom a friend put together for me
and I have not seen it used anywhere else.  I was using a rubbermaid mash
tun and was getting pretty frustrated with stuck sparges.  I do not have a
picture but I will try my best to describe it. The actual false bottom is a
disc made of perforated SS. The disc is approx 10" diam and 2" deep with a
non perforated bottom.  What makes it a little different is that it has a SS
Tube (I believe this was the tube from a 15gall keg) welded into the top of
the disc.  I drop this into my mash after the grain has had time to convert.
After the grain has had time to settle,  I drop a SS racking can down the
tube and begin draining the wort.  I have found a couple of benefits with
this.  First if I have a stuck sparge I can always pull it out and start
over, although I have not had one stick since I began using this. #2 I can
use it with my 15gall SS  mash tun, and still use this method.  It allows me
to stir the mash and use direct heat to maintain or increase my mash temp
without scorching.  It also came in very handy the time I forgot to attach a
false bottom to my brew kettle.  Like I said I have not seen this anywhere
else, but there may be a good reason for that that I have not yet stumbled
upon. If anyone would like any more info feel free to email me.

I hope this is not too remedial for this goup of highly experienced and
knowledgeable brewers, but what do you expect for .02$.

Dave Darity - dave at jamesbaker.com
OKC


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Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 12:57:08 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Superior Lager Yeast

ANyone have experience with "Superior Lager Yeast" from Australia?  It is 
described as slightly "drier" than Saflager, and I am thinking about 
experimenting with it...

 ..Darrell




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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:20:20 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Pitching big, and false bottoms


Christian Rausch asked:

"Secondly does anyone have any thoughts about false bottom construction? I
have used the B3 stainless for the bottom of a five gallon Gott. It gets
stuck all the time and it is starting to get frustrating. I had made one in
the past out off a food grade bucket bottom and regret giving it away when I
purchased this new one. Any Ideas?"

I had boatloads of problems with stuck sparges in a 5 gallon Gott, using a
different false bottom.  My opinion is that it's not the FB, but the aspect
ratio of the mash tun.  In a 5 gallon cooler, in ID is so small, and the
grainbed height is so high, that controlling your flow rate becomes
critical.  I got the best results when I throttled the outlet flow to some
small value, and let it flow continously while I vorlaufed.  In other words,
after I filled a pitcher and while I poured it back into the top, I let the
flow continue into the kettle.  Starting and stopping the flow was
problematic.  The trick is finding a flow rate low enough.  You can't just
open the valve and let 'er rip.

Later I built a FB for one of my kettles, and began mashing in that.  The
width to height aspect ratio is closer to 3:2, a much better ratio for
getting good flow rates.  My sparge time is about 15-20 minutes for a 6.25
initial volume.  At that point, my runnings are ususally 1.011.  Now I just
use the Gott cooler to hold my sparge water...

Regards,
Mike Sharp



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