---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Berliner Weiss questions & pitching rates ("Steve Leonard")
  Secondary Lagering Temperature ("Orin Walker")
  Re:B3 28 gallon system & LHBS ("Michael O'Donnell")
  DCL said what? (Randy Ricchi)
  Re: DCL said what? (Alan McKay)
  Re: false bottoms ("Tidmarsh Major")
  Re: Palm Style Guidelines (Bill_Rehm)
  new brewery (b shockley)
  interesting development (Marc Sedam)
  boycott french wine to support trappist monks (Alan McKay)
  Re: Repackaging Dry Yeast/Pitching Rates ("Drew Avis")
  LHBS (Michael Hartsock)
  Yeast banking questions ("James Weston")
  Re: kitchen aid mill (Bill Wible)
  Re: Mill wars (Bill Wible)
  Re: Palm Style Guidelines ("Mary Johnson")
  Another LHBS supporter (Mark Kempisty)
  RE: Repackaging dry yeast (Brian Lundeen)
  RE: Repackaging dry yeast (Alan McKay)
  LHBS chatter (Alan McKay)
  Re: All Grain Newbie (Rama Roberts)


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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 20:42:27 -0800
From: "Steve Leonard" <specialk at speakeasy.org>
Subject: Berliner Weiss questions & pitching rates

Hello to the collective, and I find myself in need of advice on effective
pitching rates for a new endeavor - Berliner Weiss.

After searching back on the HBD, I find many excellent posts from Mr. Sedam
on his experiences, and a very interesting posting from Siebel in HBD#3949
regarding pitching rates for good results.  Based on the collective posts,
I'm going to pitch yeast & lacto together directly into the finished wort.

>From HBD#3949, "The yeast and bacteria are pitched together in a ratio of
4-6 parts yeast and 1 part Lactobacillus." And, "Ale yeast will still
ferment at these pH and lactic acid concentration but is inhibited and will
ferment much slower and
maybe not to the attenuation limit."  My translation: Pitch more than
'recommended' amounts of yeast.

For a 5 gal. batch of 8P wort, the recommended pitching rate would be around
113 billion cells.  Planning on using Nottingham, and figure 10 grams would
give me ~150B cells.  Assuming that 6:1 ratio refers to cell counts, my math
tells me I should aim to pitch at least 25 billion lacto cells.

I'm planning on using a 100 ml tube of Wyeast #4335 Lactobacillus
delbrueckii for the 'critter' component.  Being the curious type, I called
Wyeast directly to inquire about the approximate cell counts for this
product.  (Side note: An actual person answered the phone, and cheerfully
transferred me to a microbiologist!!!  WTG, great support!)  In response to
my question, I was informed that the Lacto culture contains ~6 million cells
per ml or 600M cells per tube.

Questions:
1) Am I correct in assuming the pitching ratio in the Siebel refers to cell
counts?
2) Should I do a starter (per the same Siebel post) to step up the cell
count?  I'm unfamiliar with the critter here, but would a 1 liter 10P
starter wort be enough?
3) How the heck to you harvest lactobacillus?

Curious to find out what everyone thinks.

Steve Leonard
Seattle, WA



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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:10:39 -0500
From: "Orin Walker" <orinw at hotmail.com>
Subject: Secondary Lagering Temperature

I am doing a Yuengling Porter clone from Tess and Mark Szamatulski's "Clone
Brews" book (p159). I am using Wyeast's 2042 Danish Lager yeast. It has been
in the primary for about two-weeks at 50F (10C)  and I'm ready to rack. The
book recommends 57-65F (14C-18C) for the secondary fermenter. How long
should I hold at this temperature before bottling and lagering (in the
bottle)?

Orin


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Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 23:38:48 -0800
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: Re:B3 28 gallon system & LHBS

Well, I have no hope of ever affording a B3 sculpture, so I can't comment 
much on them except that they make me drool and resolve to be a better 
welder.

But, living an hour from my nearesht LHBS -- not too local --, I can say 
that B3 (and most of the internet stores with whom I have dealt) are great 
about answering questions from a distance.

If are serious about shelling out 3K on one of their sculptures, I'll bet 
that they'll answer any question you have either by email or their 800#.... 
if you they don't want to answer questions, buy somewhere else and tell 
them why you are walking away from the deal.

I hear all the comments about supporting LHBS, and agree that they can be 
great. Still, I feel compelled to make the case for the on-line stores for 
those of without a local... quick turnaround and cheap shipping make the 
difference between brewing and giving the hobby up altogether.

cheers,
Mike
Monterey, CA

At 12:38 AM 1/10/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 12:33:10 -0500
>From: "Christopher Post" <chrispost@ earthlink.net>
>Subject:
>
>I'd appreciate the Forum's collective advice on a significant investment I'm
>considering, in Beer Beer & More Beer's B3-2050 28/20 gallon "brewing
>sculpture".  This would initially be used simply to free up some of my
>weekends by producing larger batches but, in the fullness of time, I have a
>dim idea I may use it as a "pilot" system for a microbrewery.
>
>I was thinking of going the whole hog and getting the digital SMART (= a
>funky HERMS system, as far as I see) option, but thought getting the digital
>HL option might be overkill (at an extra $750 w/ mandatory control panel).
>
>Unfortunately BBB doesn't seem to have a great deal of info on the system
>beyond
>what's on the website (come on guys this is a lot of money!  This is what I
>paid for my car!...ok I spent a lot more than that on the car since...)



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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:57:12 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: DCL said what?

I can understand DCL not wanting someone else to re-package their
product. If Paddock Wood (or anyone else) is not careful they could
introduce some contamination during re-packaging. Then when someone uses
the yeast and gets an infected batch, they will go on a public forum
such as this one and yak about how DCL yeasts are contaminated.

>Alan Mckay wrote:
>> I'm not afraid to order from Canada, at least during the
>> more temperate months, but Paddock Woods told me that DCL
>> asked them to stop repackaging the K-97 yeast.

>I strongly encourage each and every one of us to express our
>displeasure over this to the North American business development
>agent  Richard Munro <rmunro at dclyeast.co.uk>

>Unbelievable!

>cheers,
 >-Alan





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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:04:32 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: Re: DCL said what?

Quoting Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>:
> I can understand DCL not wanting someone else to re-package their
> product. If Paddock Wood (or anyone else) is not careful they could
> introduce some contamination during re-packaging. Then when someone uses
> the yeast and gets an infected batch, they will go on a public forum
> such as this one and yak about how DCL yeasts are contaminated.

Yes, I understand this as well, but maybe I am the exception in that
I fully realise this is a potential source of problems, and were I
ever to get an infected batch from such a yeast this would be my
immediate culprit.  (i.e. I would blame the fact that it had been
repackaged, not the company)  Our local club has bought a half dozen 
or more of the DCL bricks and we repacked them ourselves.  Several 
months later and nobody has reported any sort of problems.  In the
past I've also had a Brew-on-Premise give me a huge ziplock bag
of their yeast which I used bit-by-bit, and never once had a 
problem.

Perhaps instead of expression our displeasure with them asking
Paddock Wood to stop doing this, we can still mail the North American
rep en-masse to let him know what kind of homebrew market there is
for his product.  Maybe then they will start offering more of their
yeasts in homebrew-sized packaging.

cheers,
 -Alan

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site 


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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:15:21 -0600
From: "Tidmarsh Major" <tidmarsh at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: false bottoms

On 9 Jan 2003 at 0:11, Mike Sharp wrote:

> I had boatloads of problems with stuck sparges in a 5 gallon Gott, using
> a different false bottom.  My opinion is that it's not the FB, but the
> aspect ratio of the mash tun.  In a 5 gallon cooler, in ID is so small,
> and the grainbed height is so high, that controlling your flow rate
> becomes critical. 

I use a 5 gallon cylindrical cooler and don't have trouble with stuck
sparges. I use an EZ-Masher adapted to a ball valve rather than the 
rubber
stopper it came with and find it works much better than the false 
bottom I
have also used. With the false bottom, grain leaked under the bottom 
and I
also found that husks would lodge in the holes, increasing cleaning 
times
by necessity of poking out hundreds of clogged holes with a 
toothpick.

I don't think that careful flow is the critical difference, as I had 
no
troubles when my only flow control was a clamp on the outlet hose. 
The
ball valve makes it easier to sparge slowly to increase efficiency, 
but it
doesn't have much effect on stuck sparges, at least with an EZ-
Masher.

Tidmarsh Major
Tuscaloosa, Ala.




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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:33:40 -0600
From: Bill_Rehm at eFunds.Com
Subject: Re: Palm Style Guidelines

Rick Theiner asks about Palm Styles Guidelines.  I have the Beer Style
Guide loaded on my Visor, all this is a database, not an application.  It
requires you to have the thinkDB2 application installed as well.  As far as
other Brewing Software for the Palm, I have AlcCalc, FirstStrike, and
HydroCalc all from Jeff Donovan at ProMash.  I don't use them often since I
now have an old laptop  with the full version of ProMash installed that use
only for brewing.

Bill Rehm
Weil Street Brewery
Oostburg, WI




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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 05:46:30 -0800 (PST)
From: b shockley <indythedog at yahoo.com>
Subject: new brewery

I have just constructed a two tier beer brewing
structure.  I have converted kegs as the hlt, mash tun
and boil pot.  I also have purchased a good mag drive
pump.  My question is... Where do I go from here?  I
have seen great photos of hard plumbed breweries and I
would like to do this, but I have oh so many
questions.  (I don't mean to start a firestorm, but..)
Which is better RIMS with a heating element or HERMS
using the hlt?  Also, how do you guys clean and
sanitize the hard plumbed breweries?  Any help would
be appreciated; I prefer not to reinvent the wheel.

Thanks, 

Bill Shockley  W5GYW

Kent, WA 

[6037.7, 342.7] Apparent Rennerian





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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:24:45 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: interesting development

Hi all,

Wanted to share a recent experience with the list and see if this has 
happened elsewhere.

I'm getting a friend of mine into all-grain brewing.  My LHBS doesn't 
have much of the equipment I'm looking for so I decided to go online.  I 
hadn't ordered anything from St. Pat's in a while so I placed what 
amounted to a $225 order with them for some equipment.  The same stuff 
most online shops have and the St. Pat's prices weren't even better.  

I get an email back from Miss O'Connor within an hour of placing my 
order stating:

"You should buy these items elsewhere.  St. Patrick's of Texas will not 
sell to you."

I sent two follow up emails for clarification and asking for proof that 
my credit card information was destroyed (since it's clear I cannot 
trust this organization with my information), but received no response. 
 Frankly, I'm at a loss.

I can only think of two possible reasons.  First, I do recall being 
critical of some of St. Pat's practices in the past.  If you ever saw 
their catalog you'd understand.  For example, it states "St. Pat's is 
undoubtedly the industry leader in both experience and knowledge of soda 
kegs, having sold more than 20,000. "  That's kinda like saying 
McDonalds is undoubtedly the food service industry leader in knowledge 
of cooking since they have served billions of hamburgers.  Volume 
doesn't denote competence.  The only other thing I can think of is that 
Ms. O'Connor saw my last name (Sedam...it's Dutch, but I do get a lot of 
flak for people thinking it's Arabic) and chose not to sell to me for 
some personal reason.  I don't really understand whether it's due to her 
not "liking" me or from predjudice, but I'll buy everything somewhere 
else.  I could care less, but I though the HB community and the AOB 
should know about her business practices.

I do try to be helpful here and in my homebrew club...write a 
little...even judged in the National HB conference last year.  For some 
reason I'm not good enough for St. Pat's (now officially putting the 
"aint" in Saint).  ROFLMAO.  I've already acquired the stuff elsewhere.

That being said, I'd like to hear from any of the shops who would be 
willing to turn away ~$200 worth of business.  Given the recent thread 
of how low the margins are on brewing supplies, I guess you can consider 
this shop one of a handful in the country who can afford to do it.


Cheers!
Marc

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:10:55 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: boycott french wine to support trappist monks


Folks,

On my website I am calling for a boycott of French wine to support
the Trappist Monks battle over a new tax introduced in France.

>From my site :
http://www.bodensatz.com/article.php?story=20030110095919293

Belgian's Trappist Monks have broken their vow of silence and are speaking out
against a new French tax on beers stronger than 8.5% alcohol. The levy was
brought in unexpectedly at the end of last year, and according to government
officials is intended to combat alcoholism.

However it is worthy to note that French wines have an even higher alcohol
content than Trappist beers, and already enjoy much lower level of taxation than
beer, even before this new tax. Since virtually no French brewers are affected
by the tax, opponents I think rightfully accuse the French government of using
protectionist tactics which go against the spirit of the EU.

In support of the Trappist Monks Bodensatz is calling for all homebrewers to
boycott French wine until this tax is removed.

Some of the biggest Breweries in Belgium have already watered down their brews
in order to avoid the tax in France, but many are reluctant to change their
traditional recipes, some of which are centuries old.

Spokesman for the monks Henroz Phillippe says that they have asked the European
Commission to investigate, and they remain confident that a ruling will come
down in their favour.

"If somebody wants to get drunk quickly" says Phillippe, "I guess they would go
for a cheap wine rather than a specialist beer" 

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site (tm)


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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:11:37 -0500
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Repackaging Dry Yeast/Pitching Rates

Bill Tobler, fellow electric brewer and dry yeast dabbler, notes that
Danstar recommends against re-packaging dry yeast, because it loses
viability when exposed to air (and probably presents a risk of
contamination).

This is probably true, though in my experience the yeast has been "viable
enough" for quick starts and vigorous fermentation.   This applies to
several yeasts re-packaged by Paddock Wood (before they got shut down by
DCL) and yeast re-packaged by other brewers. I have some 1 year old S-189
vacuum sealed that I plan to use soon, so I'll see if it's still in good
shape.  The exposure to air is minimal, though - the brick is opened,
divvied up, and re-vacuum sealed.

I guess the secret to doing this is to pitch big, which gets to your second
question, Bill.  I've been pitching 11 gr ale yeast and 20 gr lager yeast in
per 20 litres (5 gals) with excellent results.  DCL recommends pitching
rates of 50-80 gr/hl for ales for 5-8 million cells/ml.  For lagers it's
80-120 gr/hl ( at  9-15C) for 8-12 million, up to 200-300 gr/hl at or below 9C.
These are their suggestions for industrial brewing, so homebrewers can get
away with the lower end of the ranges.  Divide by 5 to get homebrew rates:
10-16 gr / batch for ales, 16-24 gr / batch for lagers (or if you *really*
want to over pitch at cold temps, which I call "pulling a Lundeen", 40-60 gr
/ batch).  An aside on the incredible convenience of dry yeast: imagine how
much time and effort you have to put into a starter to get similar pitching
rates from liquid yeast!

All of this assumes your yeast is viable.  Note that the lager range has a
built-in buffer: I'm pitching 20 gr, which gives me a 20% buffer over the
minimum recommended pitching rate for commercial brewers.  Not a bad gamble,
even with re-packaged yeast, eh?

Cheers!
Drew Avis, Merrickville, Ontario ~ http://www.strangebrew.ca


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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:25:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: LHBS

I just thought I would chime in on this issue.  I live
in an area with no home brew shop.  There is one store
that sells a few dramatically overpriced supplies. 
2.99 for a pound of american 2 row?!?!?!?!  And they
don't know anything about home brewing, the stuff just
sits in there store.

Anyhow, I would adore having a LHBS here.  I would pay
more for items, and I still think that I would get a
net savings, and just having a local environment and
store.  Try running out of something you need for a
brew and having to order it!  Besides, grain is heavy
and expensive to ship, I would rather buy it locally
and not have to deal with shipping and waiting.

Perhaps local shops will someday become prosperous,
but it has been my experience that local,
knowledgeable shops for ANYTHING are giving away to
the Walmart's of the world.  Ever try to go to
radioshack and ask for a 5000 puff capacitor?  Just
try it to see the look you get ;)

Home brewing is experiencing the same fate as every
other niche activity.  I don't see it getting any
better, sadly

my 2 cents.

mike



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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:35:01 -0600
From: "James Weston" <jweston at mint.ua.edu>
Subject: Yeast banking questions

I am a relatively novice extract/partial mash brewer and I have recently
started using liquid yeast. For my first attempt, I used a pilsner
lager. Prior to pitching, I innoculated some home-made slants. After
three days at room temperature, I have some healthy (?) yeast cultures
growing on the slants. My questions are as follows:
(1) how long should I let the yeast incubate at room temperature prior
to storing them? I am burping the tubes as I go along.
(2) what's the proper storage temperature (fridge? freezer?)
(3) how many times do other bankers reuse the same culture (what I mean
is the next time I use the yeast, I will start a pitching culture, start
a next generation slant, and recylce my original slant tube -- how many
times is advisable? I have limited lab resources).

Any suggestions are appreciated.
James




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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:36:38 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: kitchen aid mill


I've been interested in this discussion.

How adjustable is this attachment for the Kitchen Aid,
or is it adjustable?  Isn't it designed to make flour?
Can it or will it grind the grain coarse enough?

And yeah, 10 cups sounds ridiculous.  Why that small
amount?  Is grinding grain alot of stress on the motor?

We just got a Kitchen Aid stand mixer, haven't used it
alot yet.  I saw that attachment ages ago, when we
didn't have the mixer yet, and I was recently wondering
about it.

It's not going to replace my JSP malt mill, though!
Especially if it can only do 10 cups at a time.

Bill



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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:42:17 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: Mill wars


Alan,

I agree.  All of those mills are great.

I have a JSP in my store, it has been here for 3 years
now, and it takes a constant beating.  It's held up very
well, and I wanted to put in a good word for Jack here.

He replaced the hopper for me when it got broken, and sent
me replacement parts and o-rings for free whenever I needed
them.  He really stands behind and backs his mills.  I can't
say enough good things about the JSP and the service I got
with it.

Also, have you seen the mills from Crankandstein?

http://www.crankandstein.com

I have at least one customer who got one of these and loves it!

Bill 



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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:38:35 -0600
From: "Mary Johnson" <mpmarus at hotpop.com>
Subject: Re: Palm Style Guidelines 


Eric, you have to have a DOC file reader. I recommend the MobiPocket reader.
Version 4.5 is 19.95 from www.mobipocket.com, version 4.4 is free, 
available at http://makeashorterlink.com/?N35224A03

Mary Johnson
Retriever Brewers
http://www.mj-pg.com/brewers.htm




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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:22:58 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Another LHBS supporter

I buy almost all of my supplies at my LHBS.  I only brew about 6 or
7 times a year so this helps put me in the "frame of reference" for
brewing.  Plus I get to talk beer with the proprietor or staff, get
advice,
ideas and meet other brewers.  Its part of the hobby to me.  If I want
to brew this Saturday I know my deadline for getting to the shop based
on what I'm doing for yeast.  Shipping could end up throwing me off a
week (I don't want to pay the premium for next day delivery).

I appreciate the service I get at retailers.  While I do like to save
money, if I have to pay a few dollars more to experience better service
and more knowledgeable staff I will.  I find that in the end that saves
me money and aggravation.  If I didn't brew I would be buying cases of
microbrews around $18-$22 a case.  I run around $23 for a 5 gallon batch
(counting propane but not my time) so I'm still saving $.

A LHBS owner told me what his 1/8th page ad in the Yellowbook phone
directory cost.  OUCH!  If he's making $2 on a pack of yeast, that's a
lot of yeast he has to move.

Please don't consider this mail a flame against on-line retailers (even
my LHBS sells on-line).  I do occasionally order on-line for brewing and
my other hobbies.  They have a viable and useful place in the hobby and
for some people are the only option.

- --
Take care,
Mark





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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:26:06 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Repackaging dry yeast

Alan McKay writes:
> 
> > I'm not afraid to order from Canada, at least during the
> > more temperate months, but Paddock Woods told me that DCL 
> asked them 
> > to stop repackaging the K-97 yeast.
> 
> I strongly encourage each and every one of us to express our 
> displeasure over this to the North American business 
> development agent  Richard Munro <rmunro at dclyeast.co.uk>
> 
> Unbelievable!

Perfectly believable, Alan. Yeast are produced and packaged under carefully
controlled conditions. Repackaging introduces a risk of infection and loss
of viability. If brewers using these yeasts get poor results or spoilage, it
is not Paddock Wood's reputation that will necessarily suffer, it is DCL's.
They are simply trying to ensure that their retailers put their product on
the market in the state in which it left the factory.

Bill Tobler writes:
 
> Nottingham will rapidly lose activity after exposure to air. 
> Do not use packs which have lost vacuum. Opened packs must be 
> re-closed and stored in dry conditions, at 4 deg C and used 
> within 3 days.
> 
> You may be seriously hurting the yeast by exposing them to 
> air.  This may need some more looking into.
> 

I don't doubt that repackaging will affect the product. The question is, to
what degree? 

The answer will depend largely on how the repackaging is done. Continued
exposure to air from leaving the yeast in its original packaging is likely
the most harmful. However, anecdotally, I have heard from a few winemakers
who do just that with their Lalvin bricks with no ill effects. Perhaps, they
just pitch large to compensate.

When I repackage a brick, and so far I have only done that with lager
yeasts, I vacuum pack them using my FoodSaver in 50 g amounts. I feel this
gives me a large enough population to account for any loss caused by their
brief exposure to air. Note, I said this is how I feel, not that I know this
as a fact.

The risk of infection is a greater concern, and in that regard I don't know
if I do enough. I sanitize the container I use for weighing the yeast, but
not the vac bags. So far, I've had no problems, not have I heard of any
infection problems from people with whom I've shared the yeast. As always,
YMMV.

So, the bottom line is, this is something that retailers probably shouldn't
be doing, and that homebrewers do at their own risk.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:36:45 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: RE: Repackaging dry yeast

Quoting Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>:
> Perfectly believable, Alan. 
> Repackaging introduces a risk of infection and loss of viability. 
[...]
> They are simply trying to ensure that their retailers put their product on
> the market in the state in which it left the factory.

I guess it was wrong of me to assume that everyone would be like me and
known up-front that there was some risk involved.  And as I've already
mentioned if I ever did have problems, I would not kid myself into thinking
it was due to anything other than the repackaging.  I certainly would not
blame DCL. But I guess you are right that some folks probably would.

So the right approach would then be to still email DCL, but instead of
raking them over the coals about the slap on the wrist they gave P-W,
encourage them to release all their yeasts in homebrew sized packages.

cheers,
 -Alan

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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:48:51 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: LHBS chatter


I would love to have a LHBS worth patronizing, but unfortunately here
in Ottawa we are in a homebrew wasteland.  There are a number of shops,
but few of them cater to the allgrain crowd, and even those who do, have
no selection to speak of.  1 type of base grain, 1 crystal malt, 1 wheat
malt and from time to time flaked maize.  Absolutely no allgrain equipment.
And worse of all, in the last 2 years most of them have almost completely
ignored the beer crowd in favour of the wine and wine-on-premise crowds.
Not only that, but if I had a nickle for every time I've heard them give 
out blatantly flawed or deeply misinformed advice (not unlike "dry yeast 
is a joke"), I would have more than a few bucks right now.  Sorry, but
shops like that do not deserve my patronage.

The lack of a decent local shop has banded together local brewers into
something of a brewing coop where we make bulk purchases and as a result
get really great pricing.  But I would still gladly give up some amount
of that great pricing to also eliminate the headache of organising these
bulk purchases, and distributing the goods once the order is in. 

Fortunately one of our club members has found a shop that at least seems
interested in learning more about the needs of advanced brewers, and 
my past experience tells me that sometimes the best homebrew shops can
be built from next to nothing as long as the owner is eager to please,
and to learn.

cheers,
 -Alan

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http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site 


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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:07:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: Re: All Grain Newbie

"Gilbert Milone II" <gilbertmilone at hotmail.com> said:  
"I'm having a problem with undershooting my target
gravity. Sometimes by as much at 10 points."

to which Kent Fletcher had some good suggestions on improving efficiency. One 
of Kent's comments was:
"One approach is to sparge until the SG of the output drops down to
about 1.010 or so, then boil down to the desired volume/OG."


I'm of the opinion that the lengths many brewers go to in order to extract 
every bit of sugar is a waste of time and energy. Grain is cheap, time is not.  
(I should mention I'm also a devote batch sparger). 

The suggestions to mill your grains finely, watch mash pH, etc are all good- 
but personally I wouldn't bother sparging until the low teens. You risk 
astrigency problems as you leach undesirables from the husks the lower you go 
(I think) and you end up with a bunch more fluid you'll need to boil off. Just 
bump up your grain bill by 10%- as long as your mash/lauter tuns have the space 
for it.

- --rama



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