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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: lhbs whine (Sean Carothers)
  Re:  new brewery (Bill Tobler)
  Re: LBHS Chatter (Bill Wible)
  Re: Youngs Chocolate Stout (Yerry Felix)
  Boulevard Wheat ("August F. Altenbaumer")
  re: Reducing the malt flavor in no-sparge brews ("Steve Alexander")
  Very dusty base malt (Fred L Johnson)
  Meadllennium Reminder ("Howard & Patty Curran")
  Brewing Software for PDAs ("Pete Calinski")
  Re: All Grain Newbie ("Mike Sharp")
  Re: Palm Style Guidelines  -  Palm "Application" for BJCP guideli ("Rogers, Mike")
  Hella-packed yeast in the Unitank! (Jennifer/Nathan Hall)
  RE: WLP 565 Belgian Saison Yeast ("Dan Gross")
  Cappers (David)
  Removing beer Labels ("Jason")


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Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 02:56:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Sean Carothers <seancarothers at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: lhbs whine

Some one said in their post "in Ottawa we are in a
homebrew wasteland".  I currently live in the
Portugese Azores island chain.  I would kill to have
overnight UPS, let alone a homebrew store.  I'm in the
military so everything I order goes to New York,
(Postal service only so I can't use online retailers
that ship only UPS) and then the military gets it too
here.  Unfortunately they don't have the velvet gloves
of some shipping companies.  It's not uncommon to be
shaking dry malt extract out of a box (where the bag
broke open) and in to the brew pot.  Thank god a
liquid malt package hasn't broken open yet.  Ordering
liquid yeast is a gamble all in itself.

My last assignment was in Italy.  There was a homebrew
shop there, but he mostly dealt in wine equipment, and
didn't know very much about the beer stuff that he
had.  I'm sure the language barrier didn't help alot
(I can figure Italian out, but some of the technical
stuff get's tricky).

If you have a local store I would say use it and love
it.  There is going to be a day when you realize you
don't have enough bottle caps or something.  When you
drive to the store you'll wonder why it's all of a
sudden out of business.

Sean



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Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 08:12:02 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re:  new brewery

Bill Shockley has a question on HERMS and RIMS,

"I have just constructed a two tier beer brewing
structure.  I have converted kegs as the hlt, mash tun
and boil pot.  I also have purchased a good mag drive
pump.  My question is... Where do I go from here? "


   I have a 10 gallon all-electric HERMS in the garage.  I like the "soft
heat" aspect of a HERMS over a RIMS.  Your wort will only get as hot as your
HLT temperature.  Obviously, both systems work very well, and I think it's
going to be just a personal choice.  I sent you a pdf file of how I built my
brewery.  I like playing  with the temperature controllers, pumps and
electronics.  My newest addition is a bumper-pool/card table, not very hi
tech at all.  My system has 25' of copper tubing inside the HLT.  A brewer
who helped me a lot when I was building my system is a guy named ER.  His
HERMS uses a counter flow wort chiller as a heat exchanger to temperature
control the mash.  Hot wort circulates on the inner tube and HOT HLT water
on the outer tube.  You need two pumps here. He control's the temperature of
the HLT to control the exiting wort temp and when the mash gets to setpoint,
the water circulating pump shuts down, stopping the heating process.  The
mash circulates all the time.  I like that idea, and may switch to it one
day.  

My system is built-in, and it is plumbed with soft 3/8" ID tubing.  Cleaning
in place is easy.  After mash-out, I shut down the mash circulating pump,
block in the mash tun and line up the HLT to the suction of the pump, and
pump sparge water through all the lines and into the mash. That gets all the
wort out of the lines and in the mash tun where it belongs.  During the
boil, I run hot HLT water through all the tubing.  By opening and closing
different valves, I can direct the hot water anywhere in the system, and it
discharges into the sink or a bucket.  I do a CIP session two or three times
a year with hot PBW solution.  This is a must do, as I always get funky
looking cleaning solution afterwards.  I always do the kettle, kettle pump
and CFC at the same time.  The mash tun disconnects from the system and I
take it outside and clean it.  I use high-temp QD's on the tubing I have to
disconnect often.  If you have any questions, I'll be glad to try and help.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian







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Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:13:17 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: LBHS Chatter



>And worse of all, in the last 2 years most of them have
>almost completely ignored the beer crowd in favour of
>the wine and wine-on-premise crowds.

Alan,

I know exactly how you feel on this.  Unfortunately, the
'wine side' of the homebrew business is where all the
business is now.  4 or 5 years ago, it might have been
all beer.  Not now.  I probably have 8 or 9 wine guys
for every beer guy here, and from what I hear, this is
pretty much a national trend.

First, let's face it, it's cheaper to make wine at home
than it is to buy wine, especially if people can get
grapes or fruit for free.  Alot of people grow their
own.

Even working from the kits, it is cheaper to make wine
than it is to buy wine.  We all know how cheaply we can
buy beer.

If you can buy a wine kit for $49.99 and it is a complete
kit that makes 6 gallons of wine, which works out to
between 28 - 30 (750ml) bottles, then you're paying
around $1.75 per bottle.  You can't get even close to
buying wine in a State Store here for that, unless
you're talking Night Train, MD 20-20, or Boone's Farm.

And not to talk up wine or winemakers on this big beer
forum, ;) but the kits do make great wine, and are pretty
much idiot-proof.  I carry Brew King's line.  They're a
Canadian company, might even be in your neck of the woods.
These kits come with everything, and all the work is done
for you, acid balance, ph balance, etc.  You just add water,
add the yeast, and stir.

There's also a 'time' consideration.  I can't tell you how
many brewers I've lost over the past few years to 'time'.
Not having enough 'time'.  Everything from golf, to kids,
(the biggest killer), other hobbies - people want more free
time to themselves.  It's a recurring theme that people
constantly complain about the time it takes to brew.  I
know when I do an extract batch batch of beer, it's about
3 to 3 1/2 hours from start to finish.  All grain, jeez,
I've spent 11 or 12 hours.

Munton's sure recognizes this, that's what their 'Gold'
line of kits is all about, and if you look at their ads
on the inside cover of BYO and Zymurgy, you'll see that's
what they're marketing - TIME.

When you make a batch of wine from a kit, it takes longer to
sanitize the pail than it does to do the work of putting the
kit together.  You don't have to boil wine, you don't need a
big stainless pot, it saves money, and it's less time than
brewing beer.

I hate to admit it, but I've gotten more into wine myself
since taking over the store.  I have 3 batches of kit wine
working right now.  I might even be at a point where I can
now tell a 'bad' bottle from a 'good' bottle for some wines.

Again, I know exactly how you feel.  I'm more hard-core beer
myself, but when you have a business, you have to stock and
sell what people want.  If I have 8 or 9 wine guys for every
beer guy, then I have to put emphasis on wine stuff if I want
to make any money. 

And I think if you ask, you'll hear from shop owner after shop
owner that that's the way the whole industry is going.

Things change, though, and maybe beer will make a big
comeback in the not-too-distant future.  I sure hope so!

There have been several shows about homebrewing beer on the
Food Network, for example, - Alton Brown, and there was
something on 'Unwrapped' recently, and there have been a
few others.

I know shortly after those shows, quite a few people came
in and asked a few questions, some even bought stuff.

Bill



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Date: 12 Jan 2003 00:47:05 +0000
From: Yerry Felix <1i at esperi.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Youngs Chocolate Stout

homebre973 at mindspring.com writes:

> Anyone have any idea how to make a clone of this beer (Youngs
> Chocolate Stout) and get the rich smooth chocolate flavor it has
> without losing its head?  A great beer!
> 

Can't gurantee that it won't lose its head (my one doesn't, but well,
ymmv) but here is the recipe for my Double Chocolate Stout:
(originally posted on r.c.b by me when I first made it(it was still in
the secondary then), slightly edited with stuff I figured since then)


I used 75gr of a Dark Belgian Bakers Chocolate bar (from Sainsburys)
and melted that into a small amount of wort (.25 l) initially, then
put that into the next 3 l of wort I collected and kept it on warm
(65C) on the cooker whilst sparging the rest before adding the entire
lot to the boil.  The key is to regularily stir to break up the
chocolate whilst its on the cooker -- this takes some time.

Fermentation (with Irish Ale Wyeast slurry from a previous stout) went
smooth, didn't produce a big head as usual tho (a smallish one), but
was done within 4 days at 18/19C.  Initial tasting at racking time was
mellow, clean and had a good hint of chocolate, promising! :) It
wasn't as bitter as I feared (I messed up on the hops I thought, see
below)

Recipe for 5 US gallon was:

Mash 90 mins  at  65C: 4.5kg pale Malt, 0.25kg flaked Barley, .2kg
Chocloate Malt.

50gr of roasted barley at sparge time. (Because this stuff is bitter
when mashed)

Boil 75 mins with 30gr of Tettnang (they were a bit old, so I added
more), 20gr of Target. This tasted pretty bitter in the boil, so I
removed the majority of the hops at 50 minutes. OG 1.060, FG 1.014.

I since adjusted the hops a little, to just 20g of Tettnang and 15 gr
of Target and they are ok to leave in now ;)

The Stout is clean, smooth and chocolaty -- and its my favorite brew,
I don't make straight stouts anymore since I figured this one out.
The Young's stuff against that tastes a bit thin btw, so if you like
it light, you need to tone it down a bit -- I've never tried to do
that tho, and it maybe that higher allohol level keeps the oil in
check. (Let me know what happens if you do)

If you don't have a stout slurry handy, make a big starter (I find the
Wyeast Irish Ale Yeast is just the perfect thing here), and then give
them an appetizer made from the first runnings (800ml, dilute that
with water so you have a 1.060 wort in there(boil 15 min and crashcool
to 19c), and they get the measure of what is to come)[1].  Be sure to
aerate the wort real well (I leave my airstone (fishtank pump) in for
about 4 hours after pitching)

I've been asked to up the chocolate by my friends, and found that its
ok with 100gr as well.  Also I brewed this at a friend's house using
dried yeast(Windsor), it came out fine, but I much prefer the soft,
sweet flavour of the Irish Ale Yeast for this one) I have not tried
re-using the slurry from this, because of the oil (thoughts on this
anyone?)

Happy brewing!

Hexe Froschbein 
- -- 
[1] I do this for all my beers, the tip comes from Gregor in Berlin
(hello Gregor :) and it works a treat.  But I think its esp. important
here cause of the chocolate oils.  The dry yeast (rehydrated in water
but fed an appetizer) took noticably longer (both to get going and to
ferment this) and gave up the ghost at 1.020.  That may be the yeast,
but I suspect the oils and/or the fact that it didn't have a nice big
starter.

Junk the icky spraymalt beer before pouring in the slurry.  Don't add
the chocolate bit into that btw.  My timing here is always another 4
hours(or so) before the stuff is finally in the fermenter, and by that
time the yeasts are lively and rearing to go.

               Hexenbrau    /||x~x~<  
            0==============|x||~x~x<
               London UK    \||x~x~<

- -- 


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Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:31:05 -0800 (PST)
From: "August F. Altenbaumer" <afalten at yahoo.com>
Subject: Boulevard Wheat

I was wondering if anybody has a good recipe to
duplicate this beer.  I've looked around the archives
and the internet, but haven't had any luck.  This was
the beer that originally set me on the path to
homebrewing, so I would like to try my hand at making
it.

Thanks for any help!

Augie Altenbaumer
Brownwood, TX



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Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 03:27:39 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Reducing the malt flavor in no-sparge brews

Chris Lanthier asks about no-sparge mashing.

>But, what if I don't
>want this extra malty flavor?

>Would a balance of malt and some
>non-flavored fermentable such as rice or wheat malt
>do the trick.  Or would adding a
>pound or so of dextrose be a quick fix (so much for
>"full-grain").

The malty character of no-sparge(NS) is enhanced.   I've made side-by-side
same gravity beers and triangle tested these and the no-sparge is perceived
as maltier with statistically significance. My personal tasting of these is
that NS beer has a slightly more malty aroma, the color is darker but the
overall flavor isn't very much maltier. In flavor the NS beer is far
smoother and a bit 'cleaner', but also a bit simpler in taste than a regular
beer.  Something like the difference between a beer before and after
lagering.  I think that no-sparge reduces other distracting flavors moreso
than it amplifies maltiness.

No-sparge will not generally push your beer out-of-style.  There is little
or no need to reduce NS maltiness unless making a Coors clone.

If you want to reduce malty flavors in beer you can reducing vienna malt,
munich malt and melanoidin malt from the recipe replacing these with pale
base malt.  Replacing some malt with rice or corn will also reduce
maltiness.  Replacing malt with sugar will reduce maltiness, but will also
reduce the beers body considerably.  I'd reserve sugar additions to styles
where it's conventional - some english & belgian ales.

 -S



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Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 07:15:44 -0500
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Very dusty base malt

I recently purchased 55 pounds of Munton's "American Style Pale" malt and
have brewed two 5+ gallon batches with it.  On the first batch I discovered
that it was extremely dusty malt.  There is a fine powder which constitutes
at least 8% of the total weight of the malt (from sifting a kilogram of the
stuff).  I was able to sift off most of this powder at my local homebrew
store which has dealt with this type of problem before and regularly sifts
all of their bulk grains before repackaging these in one-pound quantities.

I felt like both of these batches have had a coarse bitterness that I'm not
accustomed to having--not a mouth-puckering astringency--more of a
bitterness.  Can anyone explain what this dust is, does it indicate a
defective product, and if it is likely to be causing my brews to be less
than they could be?
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 08:41:52 -0500
From: "Howard & Patty Curran" <OCurrans at cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Meadllennium Reminder

	Meadllennium VI is just around the corner. Deadline for entries
is January 21st. This will be the first mead-only competition of 2003
and is one of the Premier Mead Only Competitions in the United States. 

	Entry procedures have been streamlined to make entering the
competition as easy as possible. You can now enter Meadllennium VI
online. From the online entry form you can print the required forms, and
electronically submit them to the tabulation team. Now you can pay your
entry fees online and get a $1 per-entry discount! You can even use your
credit card. At a minimum, awards will be made for suitable 1st, 2nd and
3rd places in each category. Additionally, an award will be given for
Best of Show and to the Club with the most points.  Beautiful etched
glasses will be awarded again this year. 
	
	This competition is registered and sanctioned through the BJCP.
Judging will be Saturday, January 25, 2003, and all entries are due no
later than Tuesday, January 21, 2003. Entry fee is $6.00 and will
consist of 3 bottles, 6 oz. or greater. You can pay your entry fees
online and get a $1 per-entry discount!

Mail your entries to:
Meadllennium VI
c/o Rockey Markham
2247 King John Court
Winter Park, FL 32792

The following styles will be judged and follow the BJCP Style
Guidelines, Category 25, Mead Subcategories A-H. See:
http://www.bjcp.org/styleguide25.html

A.	Traditional Mead 
B.	Varietal Honey Traditional Mead 
C.	Cyser (Apple Melomel) 
D.	Pyment (Grape Melomel) 
E.	Other Fruit Melomel 
F.	Metheglin (spices and/or herbs) 
G.	Braggot 
H.	Mixed Category or Experimental Mead (combines ingredients from
two or more of the other mead sub-categories or a mead that does not fit
into the above categories.)

More information and the downloadable forms can be found at the Central
Florida Home Brewers site. Go to: http://www.cfhb.org/mead6.html or
E-Mail the Meadllennium competition team at: mead at cfhb.org.





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Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 09:54:41 -0500
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Brewing Software for PDAs

All this talk on the HBD about brewing software for the Palm makes me
thirsty for a version of Promash that runs on the PocketPC.  Then I could
take it right into the brewery (garage) with me when I brew and keep notes
in real time. Even verify inventory and all the other stuff I keep doing by
note paper and retyping into Promash.


Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************





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Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 09:05:43 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: All Grain Newbie

"Gilbert Milone II" <gilbertmilone at hotmail.com> said:
"I'm having a problem with undershooting my target
gravity. Sometimes by as much at 10 points."

To which rama replied:
"I'm of the opinion that the lengths many brewers go to in order to extract
every bit of sugar is a waste of time and energy. Grain is cheap, time is
not."

To me, the issue seems to be that Gilbert can't hit a _consistent_
efficiency.  I'm sure most would agree that the actual efficiency doesn't
matter all that much, but being able to repeatedly hit it is important.  If
the efficency is that variable, something is wrong.  Perhaps an inconsistent
crush?

Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 12:22:56 -0500
From: "Rogers, Mike" <mike.rogers at eds.com>
Subject: Re: Palm Style Guidelines  -  Palm "Application" for BJCP guideli

Regarding .doc versions of BJCP guidelines...

Don't waste time with the text version.  I highly recommend downloading John
Varady's Palm Application for BJCP guidelines.  It is small and clean.  It
is has a nice user interface that allows you to selectively navigate the
styles, rather than scrolling through pages and pages of text (been there,
done that), looking for your desired entry.  John
http://www.uberbeergeek.com/bih/ <http://www.uberbeergeek.com/bih/>  is the
developer of Beer in Hand in addition to other brewing software tools....
http://www.uberbeergeek.com/bih/ <http://www.uberbeergeek.com/bih/> 

Here is the direct link:
Download the Beer Style Viewer for the Palm OS (BJCPPALM.ZIP : contains
bjstyle.prc, SF-SE_BJSTYLE.pdb, SFT-SE_HBSTYLES.pdb, SF31RDKS.prc)
<http://www.netaxs.com/people/vectorsys/varady/bjcppalm.zip>  

Mike Rogers
Cass River Homebrewers
Mid-Michigan
www.hbd.org/cassriverhomebrewers/ <www.hbd.org/cassriverhomebrewers/> 
mailto:mike01.rogers at yahoo.com <mailto:mike01.rogers at yahoo.com> 



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Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:10:25 -0500
From: Jennifer/Nathan Hall <hallzoo at comcast.net>
Subject: Hella-packed yeast in the Unitank!

Just a little theory-to-practice knowledge biscuit for everyone - dumped some
yeast from my cylindroconical fermenter last night, about 7 days after primary
fermentation started, and the yeast was so damn packed in the bottom of the
thing that I had the 1/2" ball valve fully open and not a drop of beer came
out. This is with about 6 gallons of Oatmeal Stout above it, mind you! I had
to jab a sanitized spoon handle up into the valve while it was open in order
to dislodge the yeast booger. Even after a few pokes it still kinda slid out,
giving me enough time to exchange spoon for glass so that I could catch the
yeast and shut the valve. Has anyone else out there experienced this? I'm
using WL California Ale yeast at a temp of about 65F. Thanks!

Brewing proudly & hastily during South Carolina's one month brewing season,

Nate Hall




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Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:00:10 -0500
From: "Dan Gross" <degross at starpower.net>
Subject: RE: WLP 565 Belgian Saison Yeast

Darrell asks about WLP565 Belgian Saison yeast characteristics,
>I have really grown to like the flavors that I have found with the Belgian
>Saison yeast (wlp565).  I brewed with it on 28 Dec, OG was 1.052 and I
>used just the one vial.  It took off real quickly, and while the vigor of
>the ferment has slowed a good deal, it is still bubbling about 2x per
>minute or more.
>My question is: is this common for this yeast to keep on slowly
>working,...and, if so, how long is typical before transferring to the
>secondary?
Darrell,
I used this yeast for the first time recently and found that it continued to
ferment for almost two months in a high gravity wort. I made a strong ale
that started at 1.082 and ended up at 1.013.  The primary lasted a month and
the secondary kept going for another three weeks before I kegged it.  During
the secondary I moved the carboy from the cool basement (about 62F) to a
warmer upstairs room where it kept working slowly at about 72F for several
weeks.
Dan Gross
Olney, Md



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Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:03:10 -0800
From: David <jdlcr at flash.netdex.com>
Subject: Cappers

Dear HBD'rs
   I have capped my bottles with an Emily capper for three years. I always
wonder as I use it if they ever break. That would sure put a bottling
session in trouble and I am thinking of buying one as a back-up. Has anyone
out there ever had trouble with their cappers or is this a senseless worry?

David Brandt
Cloverdale, CA

ps: Blasted Niners! Baseball season just started. 


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Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:06:57 -0600
From: "Jason" <jhayes75 at cox.net>
Subject: Removing beer Labels

	I currently soak commercial beer bottles it hot water and then have to
scrub all the glue off. This is a timely process when you are doing about
thirty bottles. I was wondering if someone has a easier way of removing
those glued on labels. Alot of work to save 10 bucks.



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---