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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Cappers (Hayes Antony)
  Re: LBHS Chatter ("Gavin Scarman")
  Re: beer labels ("Shaun and Sarah")
  dusty malt (Alan McKay)
  lager yeast at ale temps (Randy Ricchi)
  DCL Yeast Strains ("Dan Listermann")
  Removing beer labels ("Andrew Moore")
  Dusty Malt ("Dan Listermann")
  removing beer labels (Randy Ricchi)
  dusty base malt (Randy Ricchi)
  RE: Boulevard wheat (Michael Hartsock)
  Removing Beer Labels ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Re:  New Brewery ("Dennis Collins")
  RE: Removing beer Labels (Michael Hartsock)
  Beer lines through a refrigerator (william.m.menzl)
  Re:  Removing beer Labels (Bill Tobler)
  Re: Removing beer Labels (Jeff Renner)
  Gott cooler questions ("Kotowski, Tom")
  RE: kit wines (Brian Lundeen)
  Removing labels (Michael Grice)
  Boulevard Wheat (LJ Vitt)
  Thanks to all who replied ("Jason")
  RE: Cappers (Volt)" <a-msharp at microsoft.com>
  Re: Removing beer Labels ("Kent Fletcher")
  RE:  Removing beer Labels (Volt)" <a-msharp at microsoft.com>
  Berliner Weisse (Richard Foote)
  Label removal ("Chris Eidson")
  Parti-gyle batch produces two different clarity levels(?) (RiedelD)
  Subject: Re: LBHS Chatter; Dry yeast is a joke (Ronald La Borde)
  Removing Beer Labels (Thomas Rohner)
  Lable Removal Lament (Richard Foote)
  Re: RO Water (jal7)
  Re: Hella-packed yeast in the Unitank! (David Towson)
  No protein rest Wit - any data out there? (RiedelD)
  Re: dusty malt (Fred L Johnson)
  Re: Filling CO2 tanks (David Towson)
  Re: Removing labels from bottles ("Chris M")
  RE: Cappers (Donald and Melissa Hellen)
  Homebrew Competition Announcements (Donald and Melissa Hellen)


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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:58:59 +0200
From: Hayes Antony <HayesA at aforbes.co.za>
Subject: Cappers

I test drove my new bench capper this weekend. What a pleasure, no skew
caps, and easy action. I should have bought one of these years ago.

Interestingly, I noted that both my wing capper and my bench capper were
made in Italy. I dug out my old ones, and they were also made in Italy.
Looking at online stores, I see that cappers all seem to be made in Italy.

Does anyone have any idea why? Italy does not have a big homebrew community
as far as I know.

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg; South Africa


Confidentiality Warning
=======================
The contents of this e-mail and any accompanying documentation
are confidential and any use thereof, in what ever form, by anyone
other than the addressee is strictly prohibited.



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:19:27 +1030
From: "Gavin Scarman" <suba2 at bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: LBHS Chatter

> time to themselves.  It's a recurring theme that people
> constantly complain about the time it takes to brew.  I
> know when I do an extract batch batch of beer, it's about
> 3 to 3 1/2 hours from start to finish.  All grain, jeez,
> I've spent 11 or 12 hours.

Hmm, if I do a full triple decoction with complete rests and 
a 45-55-64-71 schedule I could maybe draw it out to 12 hours.
A normal mash is 3-4 hours, of which maybe 30 mins is actually 
required to be in front of the mash/boiler.

I have 2 kids under 6 and plenty of other hobbies, and can't
understand someone saying they don't have time for brewing, 
desire yes, time no. 

Perhaps they aren't 'doing it right'. If you have time to watch 
a movie, then you have time to brew.



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:08:12 +1100
From: "Shaun and Sarah" <polidori at bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: beer labels

The solution is simple - dont bother....

After two or three cycles you will find the labels will have come off as a
result of the wash/sterilise process - anything that involves less bottle
handling is a plus in my book

Shaun Gambrill
Canberra Brewers



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:33:02 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: dusty malt


Fred talks about dusty malt.

Fred, I had that once in a sack of malt that I bought, only in my
case the malt looked almost like it had been pre-crushed as well,
though the shop owner assured me this was not the case.

This is when I came to realise that some of the 'conspiracy' stuff
I'd heard brewers talk about really was true.  What is likely 
happening is that somewhere along the chain a supplier is sending
substandard malt because they know it is 'only' for homebrewers.
In some cases what you get has been literally swept up off the
floor after all the other bags have been filled.

I'd bet you dollars to donuts this is it.

cheers,
 -Alan

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site (tm)


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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:13:43 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: lager yeast at ale temps

Has anyone fermented an ale-style beer (for example, american pale ale)
using Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils yeast? I know some brewers use lager yeasts
for ale styles at ale temperatures, and I know about the "steam" beer
yeast, but I don't much care for that yeast.

Wyeast 2308 (Munich) has been used and is recommended by some for saison
style ales. I figure I'll get esters fermenting Y2278  in the sixties
(F), but will I get overpowering esters?



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:42:31 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: DCL Yeast Strains

When I read about K-97 and S-189, I had our buyer look into seeing what it
would take to get some in here.  The DCL strains are working out great.  He
called Crosby & Baker, our usual supplier of  these products, who told him
that K-97 and S-189 were the 500g brick forms of S-04 and S-23 respectively.
>From this information, it would seem, there is no need to break down bricks
to smaller quantities beyond, perhaps, a cost perspective.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:50:41 -0500
From: "Andrew Moore" <abmjunk at hotmail.com>
Subject: Removing beer labels

Jason:

I feel your pain. All of the bottles I use have come from commercial beers 
with commercial labels needing removal. My technique is to soak overnight in 
a hot water (which cools rapidly) and ammonia solution. I then scrub/scrape 
using a variety of implements, depending on the tenacity of the label.

I have found, however, that some labels are easier to remove than others. 
Susequently, I tend to save the bottles that I know to be easily de-labeled 
and recycle the rest. For example, most European beers seems to have easily 
removed labels; perhaps it is due to the tradition of reusing bottles at the 
brewery. For many of these, the label will float off by itself. Samuel 
Adams, on the other hand, has labels that seem nearly impossible to get off 
cleanly. I have also run across some bottles that seem to have thermoset 
glues, which will only come off when peeled under very hot water. These 
labels tend to be glossy, BTW.

Andrew Moore
Richmond, Virgina







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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:07:14 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Dusty Malt

 Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
<I recently purchased 55 pounds of Munton's "American Style Pale" malt and
<have brewed two 5+ gallon batches with it.  On the first batch I discovered
<that it was extremely dusty malt.  There is a fine powder which constitutes
<at least 8% of the total weight of the malt (from sifting a kilogram of the
<stuff).  I was able to sift off most of this powder at my local homebrew
<store which has dealt with this type of problem before and regularly sifts
<all of their bulk grains before repackaging these in one-pound quantities.

It sounds like the store is buying precrushed malt.  The "powder" is
probably flour and should not be a problem if the percentage is not too
high.  The problem with precrushed malt is that it has a strong tendency to
stratify in the bag.  The hulls go up and the dust goes down.  The ratio of
dust to hulls varies a lot with where in the bag a sample is taken.  It is
difficult to know where "up" or "down" were when the bags were handled.
These bags should only be used all at once and not scooped out into smaller
quantities.  If a bag of malt is to be broken down into smaller quantities,
it is far better to buy whole malt and crush it as it is bagged.  If you
want to buy whole bags of malt, consider buying a mill and crushing it
yourself.

<I felt like both of these batches have had a coarse bitterness that I'm not
<accustomed to having--not a mouth-puckering astringency--more of a
<bitterness.  Can anyone explain what this dust is, does it indicate a
<defective product, and if it is likely to be causing my brews to be less
<than they could be?

I don't know what your bitterness problem is, but it is probably not related
to the flour.
 - --

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:24:47 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: removing beer labels

Soak them in bleach water overnight. 1oz bleach per gallon of water.
They'll slide right off, unless they are metallic labels. If they are
metallic labels, ammonia in hot water will loosen them, and you'll still
have to do a little work to get them off.

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:06:57 -0600
From: "Jason" <jhayes75 at cox.net>
Subject: Removing beer Labels

        I currently soak commercial beer bottles it hot water and then
have to
scrub all the glue off. This is a timely process when you are doing
about
thirty bottles. I was wondering if someone has a easier way of removing
those glued on labels. Alot of work to save 10 bucks.



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:29:12 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: dusty base malt

Fred Johnson asked about dusty base malt.
Fred, I don't really have an answer to your question, but I wanted to
point out that if you're sifting the malt through a screen you WILL get
a lot of dust, probably from any malt. Sometimes when I get to the
bottom of a 55# sack of grain I will dump the last pound or two into a
screen colander I have in order to seperate the malt from the
accumulated dust at the bottom of the bag. I am always amazed at how
much dust comes off. Seems like the more you shake the colander the more
that comes off. Could it be that you're "sanding" the dry outsides of
the malt?



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 06:47:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Boulevard wheat

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:31:05 -0800 (PST)
August F. Altenbaumer asked about bouli wheat

I think it is an american "traditional wheat" not a
heffeweisen.

I isolated the bottling strain, does anyone know if
this is the same yeast used to ferment it?  I've never
used the strain, its in storage though.

mike



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:03:47 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude02 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Removing Beer Labels

Jason asks about removing beer labels.  This is actually what Straight-A 
was made for.

When I lived in Memphis, I could head down to the A-B distributor and buy a 
case of bar bottles (returnable long-necks) for $3 or $4.  They were 
nasty-- these are bottles that were on the line to go through the bottle 
washer, so there was old moldy beer in the bottles, sometimes they were 
half full and sometimes they had cigarette butts, and sometimes (shudder) 
they had been used as receptacles for guys who had been dipping.

Needless to say, I didn't want to touch those bottles too much.

Using my 15 gal. capacity sink in the lab, I could put two cases of bottles 
in, fill, and dissolve a concoction that I had come up with specifically to 
clean those bottles up.  In the space of 5 to 10 minutes the water would 
have a layer of paper labels floating on the top.  Note that these were not 
the aluminum labels or plastic labels-- those took extra time, and 
sometimes I'd need to start a corner so that the solution could get under 
them, but those harder ones would be off in another 30 minutes to 2 hours 
(with no other elbow grease).

So try some Straight-A out at a ratio of 2 tablespoons per gallon of 
water.  And that solution can be re-used, too.  It won't be as strong the 
second or third time through, but it'll keep taking the labels off.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.




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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:19:45 -0500
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Re:  New Brewery

Regarding Bill Shockley's inquiry about what to do with all his equipment:

"I have converted kegs as the hlt, mash tun and boil pot.  I also have
purchased a good mag drive pump.  My question is... Where do I go from
here?"

I have to echo Bill Tobler's sentiment on the benefits of the "soft" heating
of a HERMS over a direct heated RIMS.  I gave this a lot of thought before I
built the HERMIT and settled on the HERMS approach.  BUT, there are too many
brewers out there making great beer with a traditional RIMS approach to say
one method is better than another.  Just too many opinions and testimonials
to back up both sides.  My suggestion here is to go to
http://www.barleys.nl/index.htm?thuisbrouwerijen where this guy has listed
over 100 home breweries on the web in every configuration you can think of
(the HERMIT is #088).  Look at as many as you can, contact the brewer, ask
questions, and make your own decision.  I've found that the brewers who put
up these sites love to talk about their systems (I do), and would gladly
offer any assistance or advice.

Regarding hard plumbing, I have to stick my neck out and say I think this is
a mistake.  Hard plumbing does have some advantages, but I have found that
homebrewers are rarely satisfied with the status quo and always looking to
change things up and move things around.  Very difficult to do when
everything is hard piped.  At least until you've brewed with your system a
few times, refrain from the permanency of hard piping.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com

"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but not in practice".





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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:19:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Removing beer Labels

Jason asked about removing glue:

New Belgium bottles have labels that come off cleanly
in hot tap water after a 20 min soak.  They are also
realively heavy.  More importantly, the beer that
comes in them is very good!  Many of my home brews go
in New Belgium bottles.  Heineken and Paulaner labels
also come off easy in tap water.  Sam adams labels,
while the bottles are high quality, are a pain in the
ass!!!!  Corona bottles don't have paper labels so
there is nothing to remove.  But they are clear and I
hate the beer, they are quite heavy though.

mike



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:11:39 -0500
From: william.m.menzl at dowcorning.com
Subject: Beer lines through a refrigerator

My colleague has been building his bar in the basement and has
installed a couple of taps through the wall behind the bar which leads
to the work/brew room.  He has found a refrigerator for the brew
room and is pondering the best way to get the beer through the
refrigerator wall and to the taps.  Current thought is to drill
a 7/16" hole through the refrigerator and feed the beer line
directly through the refrigerator wall and to the back end of
the shank feeding through the wall to the bar.  The major reason
for direct feed is cleaning but he is concerned about damage to the
beer line by the hole in the refrigerator.  Anyone have any better
ideas?  Any help is appreciated!

William Menzl
Midland, Michigan [99.8, 344.8] Apparent Rennerian








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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:29:19 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re:  Removing beer Labels

Jason asks about getting the labels off of bottles.  That is, by far, the
one job I don't like doing.  If you soak the bottles in a solution of
Electric Dishwashing detergent like Cascade and ammonia for a few hours, the
labels come right off, unless they are the foil kind.  Nothing penetrates
the foil.  I think if the world ended in an atomic blast tomorrow, the only
things left on the planet would be cockroaches and beer bottles with foil
labels.  I peel the foil off first, which leaves the paper backing, then
soak.  But sometimes I still have to scrape the heck out of it.  Most of the
time, I throw them out.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:28:58 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Removing beer Labels

"Jason" <jhayes75 at cox.net> asks

>I was wondering if someone has a easier way of removing
>those glued on labels.

Ammonia in hot water makes a big difference.  Of course, some labels 
never come off easily.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:38:29 -0600
From: "Kotowski, Tom" <Thomas.Kotowski at bestbuy.com>
Subject: Gott cooler questions

I've recently decided it's time to step up to all-grain.  I'd like to
purchase
a Gott cooler as a mash/lauter tun.  I'm having difficulty finding
Rubbermaid's
"Gott" line anywhere.  I'm not sure if the "Victory" line can withstand the
high
temperatures.  Has anybody had any luck with other lines or brands?  Also, I
primarily make 5 gallon batches.  Would it behoove me to purchase the 10
gallon
cooler or will it make my grain bed too shallow on 5 gallon batches?

Tom



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:42:12 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: kit wines

Bill Wible wrote:

> I know exactly how you feel on this.  Unfortunately, the
> 'wine side' of the homebrew business is where all the
> business is now.  4 or 5 years ago, it might have been
> all beer.  Not now.  I probably have 8 or 9 wine guys
> for every beer guy here, and from what I hear, this is
> pretty much a national trend.

Since wine is where the money is, I think every LHBS should gouge their kit
wine customers for as much profit as they can squeeze out of them, so they
can afford to sell brew supplies at cost. ;-) 
 
> And not to talk up wine or winemakers on this big beer
> forum, ;) but the kits do make great wine, and are pretty
> much idiot-proof. 

Although I've been making wines from grapes (or juices for some whites) for
many years now, I've gotten back into kits just to see how they've changed
over the years. I buy only the premium kits, such as RJ Spagnol's Gold and
Platinum series Cru Selects, and even there, I'm reluctant to do anything
but whites. Reds need the skins. Period.

I have noticed the kits still produce what I call "kit wine taste". I am
told this is due to higher levels of hydroxymethylfurfural in wines made
from concentrates. This compound is produced from sugars in the presence of
acids, but the reaction is increased in the presence of heat, as you would
find in the production of concentrates. It is hard to describe, sort of an
unpleasant sweet undertone, and maybe some people just aren't sensitive to
it. I seem to be. I can generally pick out a kit wine when it is made "dry"
(or as dry as you can get with a kit). Residual sugar seems to mask it, but
I don't really care for off-dry wines, so I don't regard that as a solution.

On a related note, one of my MoB compatriots swears there is a "BrewHouse
kit taste". Possibly this is from their process of adding phosphoric acid
for better storage, then neutralizing it at fermentation time with their
little packet of "wonder powder" (my name, not theirs). He says he notices
this flavour in every kit, whether he made it or someone else did. It's been
awhile since I made a BrewHouse beer, I can't say I recall there being
anything unusual, but I wasn't really looking for it back then either. The
only thing I remember thinking was how great these kits tasted compared to
the dreadful thin, sour, tangy concoctions I had been exposed to by some
co-workers over the years.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg
 


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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:03:30 -0600
From: Michael Grice <grice at binc.net>
Subject: Removing labels

Jason wrote:

>       I currently soak commercial beer bottles it hot water and then
>have to scrub all the glue off. This is a timely process when you are
>doing about thirty bottles. I was wondering if someone has a easier way

You can make it easier by adding a cleanser to your hot water. For
instance, I have been adding one or two tablespoons of Straight A
cleanser per gallon of soaking water, and the labels come right off. I
have a bucket full of bottles now.

You could also use bleach.


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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:03:02 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Boulevard Wheat

August asked about making Boulevard Wheat


>Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:31:05 -0800 (PST)
>From: "August F. Altenbaumer" <afalten at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Boulevard Wheat
 
>I was wondering if anybody has a good recipe to
>duplicate this beer.  I've looked around the archives
>and the internet, but haven't had any luck.  This was
>the beer that originally set me on the path to
>homebrewing, so I would like to try my hand at making
>it.

I am familiar with Boulevard's Wheat beer.  It is an American
style wheat beer.  This style uses a clean ale yeast not the
wezen yeast like German wheat beer.  

You need to find a recipe for American wheat beer.
I have never made one, because when I make a wheat beer, it is
a weizen.

You don't way if your looking for an extract or all grain recipe.

For extract, you can get wheat extracts that are 67% wheat - Briess
makes one.  Blend that with 100% barley light extract.  If you use
equal amounts, you will have 33% wheat extract.  That may be about
right for the style. 

For grain, it is easy to blend any ratio you want.

Data from the BJCP guidelines for category 3C Am Wheat
OG 1.035 - 1.055 FG 1.008 - 1.015
IBU 10-30 SRM 2-8  ABV 3.7 - 5.5%
It states under ingredients - Often 50% wheat or more.

=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:31:16 -0600
From: "Jason" <jhayes75 at cox.net>
Subject: Thanks to all who replied

	I would like to thank all who gave great advise on removing beer labels. I
will try these techniques on my next swarm of bottles. You know how it is
when your friends know you make beer. They stock pile there bottle for you,
Hopefully you will give them back full.



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:11:59 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp (Volt)" <a-msharp at microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Cappers

David talks about: Emily Cappers

Get a good bench capper, and keep the Emily as a backup.  Even the
modern bench cappers will fail eventually.  Now, if you have a
prohibition capper like I do (two, actually), it will _never_ break.
Hardened machined steel dies, not spun sheetmetal.  Machined rack and
pinon gear, not a metal on plastic lever.  Oh yeah!

Regards,
Mike Sharp



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:15:15 -0800
From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher at socal.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Removing beer Labels

Jason asked about
> I currently soak commercial beer bottles it hot water and then have to
> scrub all the glue off. This is a timely process when you are doing about
> thirty bottles. I was wondering if someone has a easier way of removing
> those glued on labels. Alot of work to save 10 bucks.

I took a tip from Charlie Papazian on this, it was in "Homebrewer's
Companion," IIRC:
Use a large plastic trash barrel.  Fill it with water and add bleach, then
pitch in the bottles as you empty them.  After sufficient soaking (a week,
maybe more? minimum), most labels will slide right off.  I use about a half
cup of bleach in 35-40 gallons of water.  I have had as many as 50-60 or
more bottles in it.  When I need bottles I pull them out, rinse and then
give them a no-detergent run in the dishwasher.

Hope that helps,
Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:18:59 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp (Volt)" <a-msharp at microsoft.com>
Subject: RE:  Removing beer Labels

"Jason" asks about: Removing beer Labels

I use very hot water, and a nice strong solution of TSP (nowadays, it's
usually sodium metasilicate) from the harware store paint department.
Fill a bucket, mix in the TSP.  Poke the bottles down in there one at a
time with a dowel rod, until you can't get any more in (a single layer,
standing vertically).  

Green gunk floats out of the bottle, and the labels float off.  Wear
rubber gloves.  I use a green scrubbie to wipe the bottle as I remove
it.  Remove a bottle, a quick once-over with the scrubbie, and put
another bottle in to replace it.  Work your way around the bucket, one
at a time.  By the time you get back to that first bottle, it's ready.
This works on even foil labels.  At most, you need to scrub a bit.
Rinse them well.  

If you  use too strong of a solution, it will etch the bottles slightly
(you'll see a sort of colored sheen on them in the light), in the same
way that dishwasher detergent will eventually etch your glasses.

But since you only need to do the TSP soak once, I don't worry about it.
I usually sort the bottles by height, to make capping easier.

Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:35:22 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Berliner Weisse

Steve Leonard writes with questions about brewing Berliner Weisse...

>Questions:
>1) Am I correct in assuming the pitching ratio in the Siebel refers to cell
>counts?
>2) Should I do a starter (per the same Siebel post) to step up the cell
>count?  I'm unfamiliar with the critter here, but would a 1 liter 10P
>starter wort be enough?
>3) How the heck to you harvest lactobacillus?

>Curious to find out what everyone thinks.

Some of my experience...

I have brewed a Berliner Weisse twice in the recent past.  Each time I have
used tidbits of information gleaned from an article on the topic that
appeared in Brew Your Own.  I don't remember which issue, but it had to be
in the last couple years.  In it the author recommends a two hour advance
pitching of Lactobacillus followed by Wyeast Kolsch.  I followed the
article pretty much to the letter.  The result was a second place wheat
beer in a state competition last year.  

This year I have again brewed the same beer.  This time I allowed a 4-5
hour lead time on the Lactobacillus.  I also grew the culture up over a
longer period of time--couple weeks?  I thought I had the culture sticking
around a bit too long when I noticed a few green colonies of "I don't know
what" floating around on the surface like the Tidy-Bowl Man.  Having given
the culture the "sniff test" and having invested so much time and money
already, I skimmed the colonies off the top and went ahead undeterred (more
or less).  

The result this time around is far closer to style, IMHO.  The refreshing
acidity really leaps out at you.  Now, you don't find many commercial
examples of this style for comparison.  However, I was fortunate a few
years back to sample a Berliner Weisse that was imported to this country
(by a private individual) direct from the Motherland.  My second attempt
was definitely closer to what I remember from this experience.

I grew both cultures up in a 1/2 gal. starter each.  I used my normal
starter ratio of 1/3 c DME to 3 c. water as per Mary Beth Raines (I think),
who worked either with YCKC or Brewers Resource?  I pitched the whole
starter of Lactobacillus.  For the yeast, I decanted first and pitched the
slurry.

My two cents.  Hope this helps.

Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA








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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:44:58 +0000
From: "Chris Eidson" <eidsonc at hotmail.com>
Subject: Label removal

Jason--

Try an ammonia and hot water soak, overnight if possible.  Labels will fall 
right off.  Hope this helps.

Chris Eidson
Birmingham, AL







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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:03:22 -0500
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: Parti-gyle batch produces two different clarity levels(?)

Thought I'd pass on a somewhat unusual experience...

I formulated a double-batch yesterday on the basis of
a 12 gallon 1.050, post-boil wort.  I ran off 3.3 gallons
of first-runnings, diluted and boiled to get 6 gallons of 1.052.
I then added 350g of crystal malt, sparged and boiled
to get 6.5 gallons of 1.048.

The two hydrometer samples left sitting on the counter
after the boil did something unusual.  The 1st wort sample
cleared remarkably.  The 2nd remained hazy.

The only differences between the two are:
#1 was chilled to ~54F
#2 had the added crystal, had more finishing hops
	and was chillled to ~66F.

Did I just get such a tremendous cold break on the first
wort that it dropped very clear or is something else going
on that made the second wort cloudy?

Any thoughts?
Dave Riedel
Victoria, BC, Canada


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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:08:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald La Borde <pivoron at yahoo.com>
Subject: Subject: Re: LBHS Chatter; Dry yeast is a joke

>From: mailto:bill at brewbyyou.net
>
>..I hate to admit it, but I've gotten more into wine
>myself
>since taking over the store.  I have 3 batches of kit
>wine
>working right now...

Hey Bill, what kinda yeast are you making
all that wine with? ;>)


=====
Ron
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 20:01:50 +0100
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Removing Beer Labels

Hi Jason
We brew 12 gal+ (50l), so that means 100 bottles to clean.
At least when we bottle them all. In the beginning there was just
bottling.
It proved to work out very well, soaking the bottles in hot water
with dishwasher-detergent added. It cleans the bottle on the inside,
as well as on the outside. The labels swim off without mechanical
action like scrubbing and so on. But it depends on the glue. Some
glue has to be removed with a sponge. The yellow soft side from
a 3M green/yellow sponges one is enough. If you can choose, stay
away from Wheat/Weizen bottles with dried up yeast (and other goo)
inside. These are next to impossible to clean on the inside.

happy brewing   Thomas


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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:28:48 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Lable Removal Lament

Brewerz,

Jason laments about lable removal:


	>I currently soak commercial beer bottles it hot water and then have to
>scrub all the glue off. This is a timely process when you are doing about
>thirty bottles. I was wondering if someone has a easier way of removing
>those glued on labels. Alot of work to save 10 bucks.

Everyone has their own "pet" method when it comes to label removal.  I have
noticed, as I'm sure have others, that some labels come off easier than
others.  I received a mixed six of Magic Hat (S. Burlington, VT) beers for
Christmas.  Soak 'em a bit and man do they just slide right off--totally
intact!

With this talk of data bases for this and that, I'm wondering if anyone has
ever compiled a data base ranking, by brewery, the ease with which labels
can be removed.  With this information, you could go to your neighborhood
bar, restaurant or recycling center and key-in on the low hanging fruit, as
it were.


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA




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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:37:30 -0500
From: jal7 at cox.net
Subject: Re: RO Water

Mike Sharp provides a fascinating and detailed description 
of RO systems, then ends with:
> 
> By the way, personally, I neither treat my water (Puget Sound water is
> pretty decent by itself, and I think it makes excellent beer by itself), nor
> do I generally bother with adjusting the mineral content to match a specific
> style...but then my wall isn't littered with ribbons and gold 
> medals, either! ;^)
> 
Mike, this may be due to the salinity of water taken from 
the Puget Sound ;-)

Are you still biohazard brewing?
 
Jim Larsen
Former leftcoaster stranded in Omaha, NE 
(I haven't even SEEN seawater in years)
jal at novia.net
jal7 at cox.net




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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:50:18 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Hella-packed yeast in the Unitank!

In HBD 4144, Nate Hall asks about problems getting sedimented yeast out of 
a unitank.

I have come to expect this problem, especially after the beer has been 
cooled to drop the yeast.  My dump valve is a half-inch full-port, and if I 
wait long enough (sometimes 15 minutes or more), the yeast will usually 
start to ooze out VERY slowly.  If I don't resort to poking, or other means 
of coercion, it will easily take a half-hour or so to dump a quart of heavy 
slurry.  I just find something else to do nearby while I wait.  The process 
has a decidedly scatological appearance - great for grossing-out unprepared 
bystanders :-)

Dave in Bel Air, MD



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:44:43 -0500
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: No protein rest Wit - any data out there?

The last wit I made was almost exactly what I wanted flavour-wise, but
I'd like to increase the body and retain the haziness it had in the
fermenter.
I rested only briefly at 50C/122F (15', I believe), so I'm considering
dropping
the protein rest altogether.  Has anyone tried this?  Did you have any
problems
doing a single-infusion mash with 45% raw white wheat, 5% flaked oats and, 
50% N. American Pale 2-row? 

If I don't use a single-infusion, my next try would be mashing in at 50C
then
ramping up to 67C (for sacc. rest) immediately.

Thanks,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, BC, Canada


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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:00:15 -0500
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Re: dusty malt

Regarding the very dusty Munton's malt I just purchased, Alan is pretty sure
that this is what was swept from the floor after all the other bags had been
filled and that this is sold to the unsuspecting homebrewer community.

I, too, suspect that this bag represents the "dregs" from the packaging
floor, but I do wonder if the professional brewer doesn't also get such a
bag mixed in with his pallet of base malt.  It would be hard to know you've
got a bad bag among the several good bags your dumping bags into the hopper,
unless, of course, you know this can happen and you are looking for it.

Any pro brewers out there run across bags of dusty malt?
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA

> From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:33:02 -0500
> To: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
> Cc: post@hbd.org
> Subject: dusty malt
> 
> 
> Fred talks about dusty malt.
> 
> Fred, I had that once in a sack of malt that I bought, only in my
> case the malt looked almost like it had been pre-crushed as well,
> though the shop owner assured me this was not the case.
> 
> This is when I came to realise that some of the 'conspiracy' stuff
> I'd heard brewers talk about really was true.  What is likely
> happening is that somewhere along the chain a supplier is sending
> substandard malt because they know it is 'only' for homebrewers.
> In some cases what you get has been literally swept up off the
> floor after all the other bags have been filled.
> 
> I'd bet you dollars to donuts this is it.
> 
> cheers,
> -Alan
> 
> -- 
> http://www.bodensatz.com/
> The Beer Site (tm)



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:32:10 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Filling CO2 tanks

In HBD 4140, Jay Pfaffman asks about filling CO2 tanks.

I have watched this process, and discussed it with the person doing 
it.  The first thing to never forget is that this involves pressures in 
excess of 800 PSI, and can be quite dangerous if one doesn't exercise due 
caution.  For example, if a hose comes loose while under pressure, you'll 
be lucky if it doesn't beat you to death, and I'm not joking.

That said, here is what I witnessed.  The operator first made sure the tank 
to be filled was empty by very slightly opening the valve.  Next, he 
weighed the empty tank so he'd know how much to subtract from the total 
weight to determine the weight of CO2 he would be putting in.  Then he 
connected a special high pressure hose between the source tank and the tank 
to be filled.  This hose, of course, had tank fittings on both ends.  The 
source tank was mounted in a holding fixture so that the valve-end was 
down.  This was so liquid CO2 was discharged, and not gas.

To start the filling process, he put my 5 pound tank on a scale, and then 
let about a half pound of CO2 into it.  He then closed both valves and 
disconnected my tank.  Then, holding my tank very firmly, he opened the 
valve and let the half pound of gas out pretty fast.  It made quite a blast 
of sound.  This was done to get my tank very cold, due to the rapid 
expansion of the gas.  (You want to be real careful doing this, as a loose 
gas bottle rocketing around the room can do a lot of damage, including to you.)

Once the tank was cold, he reconnected it to the filling hose and opened 
both valves to let it fill.  He said a full charge would not fit in the 
tank unless it was good and cold, but if it was cold enough, he could get 6 
pounds into a 5 pound tank.  (I'm not saying this is a good idea.)  After 
the filling was complete, he shut off both valves, disconnected the special 
hose, wiped the condensate off my tank, and gave it back to me.

So there you have it.  Aside from the obvious risk involved, I expect your 
biggest problem would be finding the special high pressure hose with 
appropriate fittings.  Were I to try this, I'd be darned sure to get a 
properly credentialed transfer hose, and not try to fake it.  800-plus PSI 
is nothing to play around with.

Dave in Bel Air, MD



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Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:35:50 +1100
From: "Chris M" <chrismac_aus at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Removing labels from bottles

Replying to Post.

Hi,

I fill up a black plastic garbage bin with wasing and sterlising powder 
outside and let them soak for a few days in the water, labels come off 
fairly easily on their own. I also throw in a bit of dishwashing powder, i 
get a lot of bottles from friends and they are never clean, this also 
gaurantees to remove yucky organisms growing inside the bottles.

I then throw the stubby bottles into the dishwasher - come out fine.

Ive stopped worrying about labels as i tend to pour the beer into a glass 
for friends, i re-use the bottles and the labels will come off over time any 
way. As long as the bottles are clean then you will be fine, leaves you more 
time to concentrate on the final product - your beer.

Chris Mac - Oz.



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:33:30 -0500
From: Donald and Melissa Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net>
Subject: RE: Cappers

David asked if anyone has had trouble with their cappers . .
 .
I have an old, 4-handled cast-iron capper that the handles
rotate around (like spokes in a wheel) so you always have
one where you need it to apply pressure to cap a bottle. I
have one handle that was cracked when I bought it and I've
replaced it with a modified file handle. It just broke on me
and I had to tape it back together (like the original one
was) to finish my bottling session.

Other than that somewhat minor inconvenience, since it is
made of cast iron and steel, no plastic, I don't think it
will ever fall apart. I think it could survive a Kenworth
truck running over it (I would not allow another brand of
truck to run over it since I work for Kenworth) and still
cap bottles perfectly.

If yours is made of plastic and steel, examine how well it
is made to figure out if it may wear out someday. If it is
one of the older stamped steel cappers like people who used
to make their own soda pop or even prohibition era
homebrew, it probably will not wear out. You may need to
replace the pad below the bottle or the cushion inside the
capper itself, but other than that, it will probably last
you years.

I made my own pad for below the bottle out of a rubber
gripper to open jars with, and I replaced the cushion in the
capper that crimps the cap with a garden hose washer glued
in with silicone sealer. 

Don



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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:42:03 -0500
From: Donald and Melissa Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net>
Subject: Homebrew Competition Announcements

I don't know about most of you but I would like to see
homebrew competition announcements made here to be made at
least 2 months before the competition. That's cutting it
close if someone were to make a barleywine or imperial
stout, but it would give someone who is making a lighter ale
or lager enough time to brew especially for that
competition. 

A week or two just isn't enough time for me to get things
together to brew and enter a competition. It's pushing it
for me to pack up and enter a competition with beer that's
ready since I have to find time after work sometime to get
to the UPS office in time to ship the brew. 

I know that HBD doesn't have rules about many things, but
for the courtesy of us brewers, could the people who wish to
announce their competitions give us some more notice,
please?

If we had more notice, perhaps more of us would spend the
money to enter these things and we could help finance the
competition and club.

Of course, maybe I'm the only one who doesn't keep beer
around just waiting for a competition announcement.

This is just a suggestion that might make some of the
smaller competitions more successful.

Don 



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