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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re:  Free Market ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: BJCP Levels (Bob Sheck)
  Re: RIMS pump (Kent Fletcher)
  re: diacetyl rests ("Steve Alexander")
  Use of Star San after several weeks ("Lou King")
  Update on MCAB-V ("Ridgely, William")
  Yeast Question ("Colby Fry")
  LBHS Chatter ("mfrench518 at earthlink.net")
  Milk Adhesive (joel trojnar)
  RE: Apple Juice for yeast starter (Michael Hartsock)
  re:water/grist ratio + ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  dubbel recipe info ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Re: BJCP exam discussion (David Towson)
  re: BJCP exam/writer's cramp (Bill Wible)
  Vienna ("Bill Riel")
  Wordy boilerplate at end of posts (David Towson)
  legal mumbo jumbo (jayspies)
  Boulevard Unfiltered Wheat (Michael Hartsock)
  Re: barleywine overcarbonation (Rama Roberts)
  RE: RIMS pump ("Mike Sharp")
  re: Apple Juice for yeast starter (Rama Roberts)
  too much extraction efficiency ("Bill Frazier")
  The Purple Pimpernel ("Stephen T Yavorski")
  Hot Water Heater Elements (David Hooper)
  Info on Swedish indigenous beers (Jim Wilson)
  re: Brewers Resource ("Adam G. Fisher")
   ("Fred Scheer")
  FW: Best of Brooklyn VI Competition ("Kevin Winn")


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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:04:06 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re:  Free Market

Eric R. Theiner writes sentiments that I agree with, but I think we're
talking at cross purposes re ethics vs law.

>[...] refusing service to anyone.
>Is this illegal?  I don't know.  Is it ethical?  Absolutely.

Just the opposite.   Reserving the right to 'refuse to serve' permits you to
discriminate against left handers, Alaskans, old people, folks of a
particular sex .. all sorts of things.   It's unethical IMO to refuse a sale
just because the customer is female or a lefty.  This one is legal but
sometimes unethical IMO.

Of course Eric, like any  sensible business person, wouldn't dream of
rejecting an order unless there was a business reason.  As he says, "a sale
is a sale", which is exactly as it should be.  A free market is about free
exchange based on the value of the items/money and cost of the transaction -
not someone's pet peeves.

>[...]  I  refused [...to sell ....]
> Why?  Because I had an exclusive distribution deal in the
>U.S. with two other companies.  I simply could not ethically sell direct,
>even though I had no written contract stipulating that.

This is a legal restriction Eric.  Verbal contracts are valid and so selling
direct would have violated your verbal exclusive distribution contract.
It'd be unethical to breach your verbal contract too.

>If you have a problem with someone's exclusionary practices, do what has
>been done here-- publicize, criticize, and act if you are so moved.

Right. Talking over a minor problem is a good solution Eric, but I'd seek a
legal remedy if the issue was arbitrary refusal of utilities, medical care,
or even service at the sole grocery or gas station in town.  If  you want to
use your business to promote some personal agenda then be up-front about it
so customer's can choose to support or reject the agenda.

 -S



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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:23:55 -0500
From: Bob Sheck <bobsheck at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: BJCP Levels

I have too must agree with David Houseman, even though I would benefit 
from using a PC to compose my essays. And for just the reason he states.

My hand (and brain) are severely strained after sitting a comp.
And I'm lucky to get more than a few dozen words <in each category>
to describe what I perceive the brew to be. Particularly after the 6th
in a 10 or more flight style~! 

>Oops Phil, you're leaking like a sieve;  any judge form received back with
>only a few dozen words is not a good example of what should be done.   My
>hand hurts as much after a flight of judging as it did when I took the exam.


Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC
bsheck at earthlink.net // [583.2,140.6] Apparent Rennerian
Home Brewing since 1993 //  bobsheck at earthlink.net //



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Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:31:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RIMS pump

Sam Taylor asked about:

>I've come across a very cheap 2nd-hand diaphragm
>pump.  Is this type of pump appropriate for a 
>RIMS system?  The throughput is around 1L/minute, 
>it's an old type with two pistons sticking out.  I'm
>not planning a RIMS at the moment, but I might be one
>day.

>There's a similar, but bigger one which will do
>2.4L/minute - would this be more appropriate?

I think you would find either of these pumps "palpably
inadequate" (Hey S.A., another D.K. quote!) for RIMS
use.  2.4 lpm is less than three quarts per minute. 
You would have to use a VERY low wattage heat input in
order to avoid denaturing enzymes at this flow level.
The end result wwouldbe that it yould take a very long
time to ramp from one temp to another, defeating the
purpose of a RIMS system.

I think you'll find that most RIMS and HERMS rigs pump
at least a gallon per minute, and many are at two or
three times that rate.

Besides, diaphragm pumpvibration a lot of vibraation,
and can make for a very noisy system.

Hope that helps,
Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal



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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 02:46:16 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: diacetyl rests

Always great to hear from George DePiro - and thanks for the practical
diacetyl test George.

Just a micro-nit ...
>Yeast can take up and metabolize diacetyl, thus reducing its concentration
>in beer below taste threshold, but they do not metabolize AAL.

Diacetyl is reduced during the diacetyl rest to acetoin and 2,3 butanediol -
not very flavor active and this requires energy.   AAL is normally
metabolized by yeast to form the keto-acid precursor of the amino acid
valine.  Once yeast growth stops the pool of AAL is nearly fixed as you say.

 -S



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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 05:59:10 -0500
From: "Lou King" <lking at pobox.com>
Subject: Use of Star San after several weeks

In HBD #4140 Dave Towson [dtowson at comcast.net] talked about reclaiming
yeast from one batch to another.  He had indicated he has a conical
fermenter, and I contacted him offline about sanitation techniques for
harvesting yeast.

I use Star San, but I wasn't sure if the Star San I use during the
brewing session would still be viable when I was cleaning the bottom
dump port a week or two later.  Dave suggested some names at Star San to
contact with this question and to publish their answer.

Their technical support contact responded yesterday.  He said:

'Yes it will [last for a couple of weeks].  I would use de-ionized or
distilled water.  The Soap portion of the Star San has been known to
react with some trace metals in water and cause a "soap scum".  I always
recommend treated water when storing the use solution for long periods
of time.'

Lou King
Ijamsville, MD



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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 07:56:01 -0500
From: "Ridgely, William" <Ridgely at cber.FDA.gov>
Subject: Update on MCAB-V

As you may know, the BURP Club is hosting the 5th Annual Masters
Championship of Amateur Brewing (MCAB) on February 7 and 8, 2003.

As part of the MCAB-V festivities, a special reception is scheduled for
Friday evening, Feb 7 hosted by our good friends from Hop Union.

I am pleased to report that we now have a very pretigious site for this
reception. Rep Jim Moran of Virginia, a great supporter of both the local
brewing industry and the homebrewing hobby, has agreed to sponsor the event
in the beautiful and historic Cannon House Office Building Caucus Room on
Capitol Hill. This magnificent room, built in 1903 in the Beaux Arts style,
is the oldest House assembly room outside of the Capitol itself. To see a
full write-up on this facility and a photo of the incredible interior, visit
the Architect of the Capitol website at
http://www.aoc.gov/cc/cobs/chob_caucus_rm.htm. The reception will be held
from 6:00-10:00 PM.

Of course, this is only part what is in store for MCAB-V participants. On
Saturday afternoon, following the competition, a special program will be
held at the world famous Brickskeller, holder of the Guinness World Record
for the largest number of different beers sold in one establishment (over
1,000 brands). The program will be hosted by Bob Tupper, creator of the
world-renowned Tupper's Hop Pocket Ale and Pils. Bob will talk about the
vision behind his products and how that vision was brought to reality. The
program will also feature a roundtable discussion featuring other
GABF-winning brewers from the Washington, DC area (all, of course, with
samples of their beers for tasting).

And, of course, Saturday night will feature an awards banquet featuring
outstanding food and yet more award-winning beers and brewers.

The total cost for the event, including reception, lunch and feature program
at the Brickskeller, and Saturday banquet, is $50, an incredible bargain
considering what is being provided over the full two-day period. In fact,
over $45 of the $50 total goes toward food. All of the beer is being
contributed by participating brewers.

Please visit the MCAB website at http://burp.org/mcab5 for full info and a
registration form. Those without web access can contact MCAB organizer Bill
Ridgely at 301-762-6523 or e-mail ridgely at burp.org for details.

I hope to see many of you at MCAB-V. Cheers!

Bill Ridgely
MCAB-V Organizer



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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:13:09 -0500
From: "Colby Fry" <colbyfry at pa.net>
Subject: Yeast Question

I am thinking about brewing a all grain oatmeal stout. I like the taste of
Sammy Smith's (who doesn't). Does know what kind of yeast is used or the
wyeast equivalent?
Thank you,
Colby Fry
Shippensburg, Pa




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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:48:22 -0500
From: "mfrench518 at earthlink.net" <mfrench518 at earthlink.net>
Subject: LBHS Chatter

Sorry, Mark, I can't agree with you on this one either.  At the end of the
day, your arguments sound an awful lot like the kids defending Napster. 
Repitching you own yeast is one thing, but IMHO, redistributing even 10cc
for even no profit is something else entirely.  You save four bucks, but
you are taking money out of your local proprietor's pockets, and you are
depriving White Labs and Wyeast profits that drive their R&D and new
product development.  You are lucky to HAVE a local homebrew shop, a lot of
us don't. If they do suck as bad as you make it sound (although to be
honest, you come off sounding a bit like a jilted lover), pick any on-line
shop and support them.  Dan Listerman is in here all the time, contributes
freely and seems VERY suuportive - buy from him.  It doesn't much matter,
but I'd reconsider your strategy.  It sounds a lot to me like stiffing the
waiter for a tip.

Cheers!

Mark


>Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:46:37 -0600
>From: "Vernon, Mark" <mark.vernon at pioneer.com>
>Subject: RE: LBHS Chatter

>Wow Wil you sound like almost as big a jerk as our guy  :) But seriously
you
>cant think for a minute that a club supplying 10ml starters to its members
>is really competing that much with your yeast business can you? I mean if I
>get a 10ml (yes we only did 10ml starters) then I have to step that up
>multiple times using....hmmmmm DME that I had to buy somewhere, like maybe
>my LHBS? You have to buy your glassware somewhere to do these step
>ups....hmmmmmm maybe my LHBS? 

- --------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 06:14:06 -0800 (PST)
From: joel trojnar <joeltrojnar at yahoo.com>
Subject: Milk Adhesive

"Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 23:15:13 -0500
From: Kevin White <kwhite at bcpl.net>
Subject: Variable results using milk as a label
adhesive

I use milk to affix paper labels to bottles. I have
noticed that
sometimes the dried labels simply drop off the bottle
and
sometimes they adhere so well they have to be soaked
off. I've
had some that survived an entire weekend in an
ice-water bath in
a cooler.Does anyone know what causes this different
behavior?

Kevin White
Columbia, MD"

Kevin,

   The primary "sticker" in milk is casein (milk
protein) and is often used as part of commercial
bottle labeling adhesives (I used to make them BTW).  
A second thing to remember is bottles are different
from each other.  Most bottles have a polymeric
coating on the outside. It protects the glass from
shattering. These coatings are either continuous or
lightly sprayed and usually make adhesion more of a
challenge.  Take a careful look and you can see the
coating.  

  You may notice commerical labels are different from
each other.  Some just float away in water (most
European imports) while some are attached well.  Some
are caustic removable (for recycling purposes).  It
depends on application and cost of the adhesive.

Make sure you bottles are clean as a first step.  Try
using powdered milk to a paste.  Is there a perticular
reason why you use milk?  

 -Joel Trojnar
James River Homebrewers
Richmond, VA




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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 06:24:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Apple Juice for yeast starter

In regards to:

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:18:27 -0800
From: Jeffrey Gordon <jgordon at library.ucsb.edu>
Subject: Apple Juice for yeast starter

The only thing that I would be concerned about would
be the nutrient level in apple juice in terms of
getting good propogation.  I know that in my cider
making experience, I need a good amount of yeast
nutrient to the must to get a good ferment.

mike




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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:07:55 -0500
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: re:water/grist ratio +

At first glance it would appear that mash water and sparge
water were confused and not considered seperately.
A quick look at homebrew systems and most pub
systems will show you most cannot heat the mash to 
mash-out temperature. Generally mashout temps are
attempted by overheating sparge water and reaching
some degree of mash-out during the sparge. 
  So I look at it as the mash was never finished (mashed-out)
and the sparge really is diluting the mash (that's OK and expected)
but in extraction of "undesirables" (tannins, lipids) this 
can be detrimental. The net effect is a very dilute mash
probably exceeding the 6:1 ratio in the foam rest study I had
referenced.
 Hit mash-out of at least 164 F and the major enzymes denature
rapidly and now sparging can be done without diluting the "mash",
diluting the liquor, yes.
  But lets look at the the "suggestion" that we stay slightly below an 8:1
water/grist ratio w/w. Taking my system efficiency of 83% and
planning 2 different brews, a mild and a CAP. The mild should hit
a gravity of about 1035 and the CAP 1062. 
My mild should have a grain-bill of 6 lbs, 48 lbs of mash/sparge water
combined (5.76 gallons). After some water being absorbed by the grist
that doesn't leave a 5 gallon batch. I guess I could add some make up
water that hasn't been through the mash pH-buffering system.
 On to the CAP; 10 lbs of grist, 80 lbs mash/sparge liquor (9.6 gallons),
now I have way too much run-off liquor for a 5 gallon batch. I have
to boil down too much and it gets too dark.
At a cursory glance any rule as too grist/water ratio comes apart.
  This is why I always gripe loudly when some sort of rule is put out
as some sort of gospel that must be followed. How an individual
sytem works is going to be different than other systems.
"Rules" that work with 1 system have no guarantee of working in
another system.  It's something that one must figure out by the
by the "seat of one's pants"(desired entity forbid.)

++
Steve says I said
>>Del's argument as I understand it was that one couldn't produce beers
with
normal levels of foam and head without a mashout rest<<

to repost my exact words:
"The issue is; does a mash out benefit someones' beer?
  1)_improves_ foam stand.(your 'pro lit' supports this)..."
      (emphasis added)
 
I never stated anyone's foam was not normal. That was an inferential
conclusion. I also stated the study did confirm their findings in
a commercial size batch.
  I don't know why but people like foam, seems the more foam-stand
the better; I've seen people watch a Guinness for 5 minutes before
even taking a sip. So what's the problem with suggesting people try
to reach at least 163 F before sparging if they want to improve foam-
stand.

>>The degree to which it actually improves head and the extent to
which the same enzymatic activities take place in conventional thickness
mashes haven't been demonstrated. <<

  Now, this part is only slightly argumentative on my part, partly real
curiousity;
is it enzymatic? Melanoidin formation is called "non-enzymatic browning"
and starts with amino acids and glucose binding. Is the glycoprotein
formation from larger saacharides and peptides an interupted
Amadori rearrangement? more of a coagulation?
  And, I thought I had mentioned them actually measuring foam with
schaumhaeftvermoegen results at 68C 140cm3, results at
71 C 160cm3. 

NL


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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:14:56 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: dubbel recipe info

I'm playing around with using Wyeast 3787 for some Belgian ales.  I'm
looking for some all-grain dubbel recipes to consider and maybe brew one or
two of.  Please help if you can. Just scaled up the yeast using a batch of
belgian pale ale so its ready to get repitched.

For the dubbel, would 1 or 2lbs of dark candi sugar be more appropriate for
5 gallons? Would 2 lbs thin out the taste too much?

Thanks,
Pete
Albany, NY




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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:39:05 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: BJCP exam discussion

The ongoing discussion concerning means of writing for the BJCP exam has 
raised my curiosity.  From what I've read, the exam is timed, and it seems 
not unusual for people to have difficulty finding time to finish it to 
their satisfaction.

I am one of those people classified as "partially sighted" or "legally 
blind".  In common English, that means I can't see worth a hoot.  I need 
subdued lighting (contrary to the usual model), and large text.  And even 
then, I read very slowly, and that includes what I have written, as well as 
the test questions.  Getting my engineering degree was not my idea of a 
good time, as I had to battle skeptical professors all the way in order to 
have any semblance of a fair chance to demonstrate what I knew.

So now I am curious to know how the BJCP would deal with me were I 
interested in becoming a judge.  I'm not, by the way; I already have enough 
"balls in the air" that I occasionally drop some.  But I'd like to know 
whether an understanding test administrator could "cut me some slack", and 
whether the organization leaders would have a problem with that.

Dave in Bel Air, MD



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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:33:03 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: re: BJCP exam/writer's cramp


All this recent complaining about the BJCP exam makes
me think of "standardized testing" and all the complaining
that led to the total "dumbing down" of high school
testing, SAT's and college entrance exams.

People made every argument on those tests ranging from how
some felt it wasn't fair to minorities to how we were asking
too much of the kids to how none of it applied to real life,
etc.

Anybody who's part of or knows anything about the school
districts today knows how the material and cirriculum of
just about every class and every program has also been
dumbed down.

If kids aren't passing the test, the answer isn't to make
the test easier, like our school systems have done.  The
real answer is to teach the material better, and make sure
they understand it.

I'm appalled at the number of people who can't even write
complete sentences or spell common words today, even in
this age of computers and word processors with spell checkers
and grammar help.

God bless the BJCP for actually requiring people to
articulate thoughts in writing, and for not providing
easy-answer, multiple-guess questions.

Even with all its perceived problems, the current exam is
still a better measure of knowledge than any test that provides
instant answers and guesses, because it requires the examinees
to think and form sentences, and work in the material - if
they know it to begin with.  The examinees can only write what
they know, not guess at answers that were already provided.
Multiple guess tests hand people the answers too much of the
time.  I loved multiple guess tests in high school, because
I knew I could pass most of the time without even studying.
And there are still alot of kids who feel that way today.

Leave the exam exactly as it is.

Bill



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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:35:20 -0800
From: "Bill Riel" <up883 at victoria.tc.ca>
Subject: Vienna

Greetings!

I have an opportunity to attend a conference in Vienna this April -
it's being held at the University of Agricultural Sciences (Universitat
fur Bodenkultur). I'm wondering if anyone in hbd-land has
recommendations for breweries or pubs that are must-see's?

Thanks!

Bill



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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:05:55 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Wordy boilerplate at end of posts

Lately, I've noticed an increasing amount of time-and-bandwidth- wasting 
stuff hanging on the ends of digest posts.  I'm talking about those little 
paragraphs that say things like, "if this email wasn't intended for you, 
but you got it anyway, yada yada" and "this email is certified virus free 
etc." (which is just a sneaky form of advertising, in my opinion).  If the 
people sending this stuff could turn if off for posts to the HBD, I suspect 
we'd all appreciate it, especially those who have to use a dialup 
connection to download this irrelevant material.

Dave in Bel Air, MD



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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:20:20 +0000
From: jayspies at att.net
Subject: legal mumbo jumbo

All -

Although Louis Bonham is the *man* on this, I'll chime in with my .02, being a 
lawyer, albeit not actively practicing in the IP area...  BTW, if I am wrong 
or vague in anything I'm about to say, please correct me, but this is right to 
the best of my knowledge.  BTW, if you're not interested in legal talk, page 
down....   ;)

In terms of ownership of yeast, there is really only one way to establish 
*ownership* of an organism, and that's through a "plant patent", granted by 
the US Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO).  99% of the time, a plant patent 
is granted for a genetically altered or engineered organism that is different 
from anything out there in the public domain, including the parent of the 
organism (it had to come from somewhere).  Yeast obviously has been around for 
some time, and while many companies and breweries bank yeast and actually 
create new strains as they mutate and adapt to their environment, they 
wouldn't be eligible for a plant patent because these new strains were not 
actively *created*, if that makes sense.  They *evolved* on their own, and 
simply possessing them as they do so does not confer the status necessary for 
patent recognition.  However, for example, if you genetically engineer a 
disease or pest resistant strain of carrots, you would be eligible to apply 
for a plant patent because you actively *created* the thing.  See the 
difference?

There are three kinds of patents...plant patents, which I have described, 
process patents, which regulate the process of creating something (albeit NOT 
general recipes - these fall under trade secrets like "KFC 11 herbs and 
spices") and design patents, which are far and away the most common, and 
regulate unique designs and, in general, physical inventions.

Can white labs sue you for using their yeast strain?  Yes, if you sell it and 
call it "White Labs WLP 001" or anything that's confusingly similar, 
like "Whitehead Labs" or some such nonsense.  They would base their suit under 
trademark law, which is a separate animal from Patent law.  TM's are names and 
designs, like Wyeast, Whitelabs, HBD, and the like.  They can be protected 
either in-state, with the TM symbol, nationally, by the R symbol, or 
internationally.  

Bringing a plant patent infringement suit is a costly and time consuming 
and expensive.  Pharma companies, seed companies and the like will vigorously 
defend because they've sunk literally billions into their little critters and 
their livelihood depends on exclusivity.  Yeast companies, on the other hand, 
have not.  All hats off to Chris White at Whitelabs and the other folks at 
Wyeast, but they're merely custodians of the yeast, keeping them clean, pure, 
and commercially available.  Which I love.  Great companies, yes.  Patent 
enforcers, no.

Sorry for the long winded diatribe, but there's really only one way to explain 
it, and that's to explain it....

Jay Spies
Charm City Altobrewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:40:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Boulevard Unfiltered Wheat

This is probably a question for midwesterners only due
to the limited distribution of Kansas City based
Boulevard Brewing.  

I want to clone this recipe (i think someone else
asked about it earlier).  Here is what I know about
the beer:

Ingredients include Pale Munich and Aromatic malts.
Unmalted soft red winter wheat. Nugget, Willamette and
Magnum hops. Starting Gravity: 1.046 Alcohol Content: 
3.6% by weight.

This is from their website.  I have isolated the
strain of yeast in the bottle, and since it is
unfiltered, I presume that it is also the fermentation
strain.  What has me the most confused is the use of
Unmalted soft red winter wheat.  I can't find this at
any of the HB stores.  Anyone have any experience
making an american wheat beer from unmalted wheat
only, especially in terms of mashing/gelatinizing and
ratio to be used with the barley?

Sorry for so many questions... but I can't wait for
summer and that means WHEAT BEER!

mike




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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:51:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: Re: barleywine overcarbonation

>>  Palmer says as temperatures decrease, you need *less* priming sugar.
>> What's up with that? I can see how the beer would absorb the CO2 more
>> quickly at lower temperatures, but shouldn't the system (head
>> space/beer) reach the same equilibrium given enough time?
>
>As gases are more soluble at lower temps, the cooler beer starts out 
>with more CO2 in solution at ambient pressure than a warmer beer at 
>ambient pressures, so less additional CO2 is needed for proper 
>carbonation levels.

Ah, that makes sense, but seems a little anal to adjust for IMO. 
Suppose the beer has been agitated during the racking or bottling phase after 
the fermentation, or sat long enough in the secondary to partially de-gas. The 
brewer would need to adjust priming sugar levels for these factors too. 

One reason to cut over to kegging!

- --rama



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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:28:28 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: RIMS pump

Sam Taylor asks about a RIMS pump

"I've come across a very cheap 2nd-hand diaphragm pump.  Is this type of
pump appropriate for a RIMS system?  The throughput is around 1L/minute,
it's an old type with two pistons sticking out.  I'm not planning a RIMS at
the moment, but I might be one day.

There's a similar, but bigger one which will do 2.4L/minute - would this be
more appropriate?"

I would say it depends on the temperature rating, the materials of
construction, and what it was previously used for.  They're darn handy pumps
to have around though, as they can be operated dry indefinitely.  For
example, they can be used as a trash pump for a sump drain.  You can clean
your equipment, letting hop residue and trub run to a low sink, and use the
diaphragm pump to pump up and out into your sanitary sewer.

There are plenty of air operated food grade diaphragm pumps in use, and they
are popular in the wine industry because they generally have low sheer,
which could be important for a RIMS.  They also pass solids very well (I
used one to pump lime slurry once--not too different from pumping concrete
that's ready to set!).  Your's sounds like it's motor operated, but I can't
be sure.

If it has ball check valves, it's probably fine.  If it uses a reed valve or
something like that, you might have problems with stray grain particles.

Do you have a link to it?  You can send it to me offline, if you don't want
competing bidders!

Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:33:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: re: Apple Juice for yeast starter

> Oftentimes instead of dealing with making a starter with malt extract, I'll 
> just buy a quart bottle of apple juice and use that.  I pour out about four 
> ounces and pitch a Whitelabs tube into it. ... Does anyone see other 
> potential problems with this method?

I haven't brewed cider before, but tried my hand at a mead (honey) before, and 
know that you need to add yeast nutrient if you want the yeast to have a 
"balanced diet". There's just not that much in honey, and I would suspect 
that's true with apple juice.

If you want to ensure healthy and multiplied yeast, oxygen and nutrients are 
both key. You would be much better off using DME or wort from your previous 
batch, oxygenating the best you can, and pitching your tube into that. 

- --rama



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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:38:10 -0600
From: "Bill Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: too much extraction efficiency

Steve wrote "During a continuous sparge, when you are
trying to determine when the runoff gravity falls to 1.015 
so you can cutoff the sparge you don't have 10
minutes to permit chilling the runoff to 60F."

I couldn't agree more.  My answer is to buy a
refractometer (RI).  Mine is not temperature
compensated but the test only uses a drop of
wort which cools rapidly on the refractometer
surface.  The test results compare nicely to values
for cooled samples tested with a narrow-range 
hydrometer (NR hyd).  

Here's some data from a bitter I brewed back
in 1999.

Specific gravity of sparge    
Time                 RI hot     RI cold     NR hyd. 
zero                 1.010      1.096     1.093     
13 minutes     1.010       1.096     1.093     
22 minutes     1.067       1.065     1.063     
32 minutes     1.041       1.037     1.037     
42 minutes     1.018       1.017     1.017     
52 minutes     1.009       1.009     1.008     
54 min. mixed 1.053     1.052      1.053     

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas




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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:02:30 -0500
From: "Stephen T Yavorski" <syavorsk at csc.com>
Subject: The Purple Pimpernel


>>
>> [lipids leech late in the lauter, the vessel with the pestle is the brew
>> that is true  - where is Danny Kay when you need him ?]
>>
>>  -S
>>

>Actually, the vessel with the pestle has the pellet with the poison, the
>flagon with a dragon has the brew that is true!  Any Fool ;) knows that!

>Kent Fletcher

No need to avoid the vessel with the pestle.  It broke.  Avoid the chalice
from the palace.  That's where the pellet with the poison can now be found.

 - The Black Fox





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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:10:27 -0600
From: David Hooper <dhooper at everestkc.net>
Subject: Hot Water Heater Elements

Dan Listerman wrote:
Common hot water heater
elements are far cheaper and easier to find, but they only go to about 5500
W as far as I can tell. I have a pot with two elements, a 3500 and a 4500.
When I want to bring the wort to a boil, I plug both in. I can then
regulate the boil by using only one or the other. This solves two problems.
I have inexpensive, easy to acquire elements and my control system consists
of two electric cord plugs. Further, if one or the other element fails, I
can still brew. It will just take longer to get to the boil.

Dan, can you go into a little more detail how you set this up?  Did you
drill holes in the sides of the pot and then install the elements?

Thanks

David Hooper

dhooper at eversetkc.net
http://pages.prodigy.net/david_hooper



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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:49:08 -0800
From: Jim Wilson <jgwilson at adelphia.net>
Subject: Info on Swedish indigenous beers

As a gift for a friend, I'd like to brew a traditional Swedish beer.  I
have the 94 Zymurgy article on Gotlandsdricka.  Are there other historical
Swedish beers?  Can anyone point me to resources on these beer styles?
Recipes would be welcome too.  Thanks!

Jim Wilson

                o          \o
   __o         /\          /
  `\ <>       `\ `>       `\  >
(*)/ (*)    (*)/ (*)    (*)/ (*)

I ride my bicycle to ride my bicycle.




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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:17:43 -0500
From: "Adam G. Fisher" <adamgfisher at earthlink.net>
Subject: re: Brewers Resource

I just ordered some slants from them and got them in the mail last week. 
 I think everything is still running as normal.

Adam Fisher
Boston, MA.
[646.1, 85.4] Apparent Rennerian (miles)



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Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:16:48 -0600
From: "Fred Scheer" <FHopheads at msn.com>
Subject: 

>Re: George de Piro 
>Subject: Lauter efficiency 

George:
I think when one is talking about lautering
and boiling the wort, we should mention that
the greater the evaporation, the more sparge
water can be used previously.
The timing of boiling (and consequently the
% evaporation) depends on a lot of factors, such
as protein of the malt used, extraction and 
transformation of hop components, and formation 
and precipitations of protein-polyphenols
complexes.
Also, it is important to mention the design of the
boil kettle, as a good convection throughout the boil
means a vigorous movement, which improves the
reactions during the boil (especially proteins and
polyphenols).
As you know, a 60 minutes boil on a 3 MIO kcal/hour
burner is different than on a 4 MIO one.

Thanks,

Fred M. Scheer


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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:38:55 -0500
From: "Kevin Winn" <krewbrew at earthlink.net>
Subject: FW: Best of Brooklyn VI Competition

The Malted Barley Appreciation Society will be hosting its sixth annual
homebrew competition, Best of Brooklyn VI, on February 22, 2003 at the
Brooklyn Brewery, in Brooklyn NY.  This AHA sanctioned event will continue
the tradition of providing quality judging and rewarding brewers with a
prize for first, second, and third place in each category.

There will again be a First Time Contestant Best of Show.  Entries will be
due by February 14, and several drop off points will be provided.  Visit our
website at http://hbd.org/mbas/bob2003.html or contact Lucy Zachman at
lucyz35 at yahoo.com for more information.



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