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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  question about starters ("greg man")
  LP Automated Gas Control Valve (wayne majors)
  Pink Lager (Hayes Antony)
  Unmalted Wheat (eric)
  Re: Wheat beer questions ("Gavin Scarman")
  Re:  Lauter efficiency / diacetyl rests (Bill Tobler)
  Water Heater Element Mounting -  Ouch! ("Dan Listermann")
  Swedish indigenous beers (Jonathan Royce)
  Used 3 Gallon ("Berggren, Stefan")
  Re: Lauter efficiency (George de Piro)
  Brewers Resource (Alan Dowdy)
  Business Ethics and BJCP Exam ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Free Market, writer's cramp, Vienna, woordy boilerplate (Ronald La Borde)
  Discrimination and The Free Market (Charles)
  RE: yeast controversy (Brian Lundeen)
  BJCP exam formats; apple juice starters; vessels with pestle ("Frank Tutzauer")
  Diode Installation for RIMS ("Martin Brungard")
  Re: BJCP exam discussion ("David Houseman")
  Re: Boulevard Unfiltered Wheat (Jeff Renner)
  No carbonation in first batch of HB (Tom Okerlund)
  Beer taxation in France (Arnaud VIEZ)
  Aid in kettle conversions ("Parker Dutro")
  LBHS Chatter ("Bob Sutton")


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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:37:48 -0500
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com>
Subject: question about starters


OK this is a little question for the collective thinkers to ponder over:

What if I made a 1/2 to 3/4 gallon starter an poured it into a sanitized 6 
gallon carboy. Waited three days an then pitched the wort on top of the 
starter? This would save a little work on the brew day since the carboy 
would have to have been sanitized already.

  The thing that bugs me about this idea is the thought of all that extra 
head space, could it harm the starter? More air can't be a bad thing right? 
And after It ferments the co2 would be like a blanket on top of the starter 
protecting the beer, Because co2 weighs more than ambient air is that 
correct?

  Problem number two is of course will the fermenter still be sanitized 
after 3 days?

Any way with all this talk about yeast an proper pitching rates, It got me 
thinking...................and that's always a dangerous thing! ;)

gregman







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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:48:43 -0800 (PST)
From: wayne majors <waynemajors1 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LP Automated Gas Control Valve

OK, it was - 2 degrees F here in MKE last night and it
looks to be a cold 
week. Quite a few weeks before I am able to brew
outside again. Enough brew 
to last till then except the B52 Honey Wheat. Super
Bowl will party will finish off the last keg.... 
No Green Bay Packers to cheer for this year....  ;-(

I have completed most of my list of minor updates on
my HERMS since brewing last fall. 

I have the upgrade bug again. 

Has anyone installed an automated gas control valve on
a LP gas ring burner or point the way to installation
guide lines? I want to automate the HLT temp 
to keep it between 155 to 160F. I know many use water
heating elements but I run my HERMS outside with an
extension cord by design. 

Thanks in advance! 

Wayne 




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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:05:12 +0200
From: Hayes Antony <HayesA at aforbes.co.za>
Subject: Pink Lager

I poured a lager saved over from my phenolic period the other day. It had
developed pink tinges. It was a nice pale straw colour a year ago. Does the
colour change perhaps give a clue as to what was causing the phenol taste in
my beer (4-vinyl guiacol was the best guess)?

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg; RSA


Confidentiality Warning
=======================
The contents of this e-mail and any accompanying documentation
are confidential and any use thereof, in what ever form, by anyone
other than the addressee is strictly prohibited.



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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 03:48:17 -0600
From: eric at schoville.com
Subject: Unmalted Wheat

Michael Hartsock asks about using unmalted wheat.  While I have never used
unmalted wheat in an American wheat beer, I used it regularly in my wit beers. 
It can be found at your local feed/seed store.  Just be sure it is "seed" wheat,
as "feed" wheat has a lot of feed contaminants like corn kernels.  Also be sure
that the "seed" is untreated.  I hope you have a strong mill...

Have fun,

Eric Schoville
Now living in Strasbourg, France, but going to Germany to buy beer
http://www.schoville.com




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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:27:18 +1030
From: "Gavin Scarman" <suba2 at bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: Wheat beer questions

> From: "Lyga, Daniel M." <daniel.lyga at pw.utc.com>
> 1. Is a protein rest required with this much wheat?  (I really
> wouldn't mind a cloudy appearance)

No, I use 60% wheat with no chill haze. We can start an argument, probably,
about never using protein rests for wheat beers, but the higher gluten will
result in less chill haze than any non-wheat beer. If you want to be bothered
you can read:
http://www.asbcnet.org/Journal/abstracts/search/2001/0621-01a.htm


> 2. I am planning on using a weizen yeast strain (wy3068).  Are there
> any other special considerations (must dos) that I need to ensure I
> get plenty of clove, banana, and phenolic flavor/aromas?

This is the most temperature dependent yeast you will come across. If you have
not used it before, and you wish to make a Bavarian Weizen, I strongly suggest
you pitch and ferment at 60-64F / 15-18C. Have a decent starter or it will be
sluggish. If you have very good temperature control, the ideal is to pitch at
12C (54F) and ferment at 18C (64F).

Basically, higher than 64F/18C and you will have too much banana ester and thus
mask the clovelike phenol. Apparently the clovelike phenol is most produced
during the lag phase, hence the low pitching temp.

Also, hop very low with a noble hop like hallertau hersbruker, about 15 IBU, and
use no aroma or flavour hops.

Good luck :)



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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 06:23:06 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re:  Lauter efficiency / diacetyl rests

On Monday, George de Piro, (From a very cold spot in upstate NY) talked
about Lauter efficiency and stuff.  Chopping up his post, he said,

>One could attempt to eek out as much extract as possible from the malt by
>sparging, but one would then end up with an overly dilute wort that would
>require a lot of evaporation to reach the required gravity.  Malt is cheaper
>than energy.

>The latest lauter tun designs strive to reach a low runoff gravity quickly,
>in other words, the rate of gravity drop in the runoff should be as high as
>possible so that dilute wort need not be collected.  Modern breweries (esp.
>in Germany) like to keep evaporation down below 5%.

Reaching a low runoff gravity quickly is something I would like to strive
for.  Right now, I usually take 45 minutes to sparge a 10 gallon batch.  My
system gets good efficiency, around 80%.  I have a refractometer and quit
the runoff at 3.5 brix or 1014.  Being curious, and you being in the
business and all, are the latest lauter tun designs different from what
typical HB'ers use?  (False bottoms, manifolds, Bazooka type screens) How do
modern breweries collect the runoff? (Do they sparge slowly, batch sparge,
no-sparge) Sorry for all the questions, but it's too cold to go out outside
so I'm sitting at my Mac.

How do these big breweries keep the evaporation rate down below 5%?  They
must have a partially closed system.  My boiloff is up around 15%.  That's a
good rolling boil uncovered.  I'd like to visit your Brewery someday.  I
used to live just down the road in Suffern, NY.  Next time I go visit, I'll
make it a point to get up there.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:00:06 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Water Heater Element Mounting -  Ouch!

 David Hooper <dhooper at everestkc.net> Writes:

<Dan, can you go into a little more detail how you set this up?  Did you
<drill holes in the sides of the pot and then install the elements?

I had a welder cut holes for 1" half couplings to be welded to the pot.  A
word of warning.  Most couplings are NPT. Heater elements appear to be NSPT
( national straight pipe thread.)  NPT will screw on to NSPT, but it can be
a tight fit.  NSPT seals on a gasket and must go in deep enough to do this.
Sometimes NPT will get too tight before sealing.  I had to buy a 1" NSPT
pipe tap.  Tapping, even retapping, stainless steel that large is not easy.
I have not found a good source for NSPT stainless couplings.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 06:27:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonathan Royce <jtroyce at earthlink.net>
Subject: Swedish indigenous beers

Jim Wilson asks for Info on Swedish indigenous beers:

I found some recipes here from a Swedish homebrew site:
http://www.shbf.se/Hembryggning/old_recept/recept.php

In the rightmost column is the heading "Specialol". There is a
recipe for Gotlandsdricka (which I've translated below). There
is another for Svagdricka, which many Swedes might today
call "lattol" or even "folkol"--it's a very low alcohol beer. 

My personal favorite (which is not listed on the above website)
of the Swedish varieties is julol or Christmas beer. Most of the 
major Scandanavian breweries have a variety of this, which is 
(at its most basic) a Vienna dark lager. Here's a recipe for a
Gold medal winner (FWIW):

http://hem2.passagen.se/frhj/recept/1999_ulfards_originalwiener.htm

If you (or anyone else on the list) wants one of the other
recipes translated, send me an email and I'll do my best.

Hope that helps with your task at hand. You've got me inspired 
to try a Gotlandsdricka now. 

SKAL!
Jon
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com

GOTLANDSDRICKA
recipe makes 125 liters

25 kg Gotlansk malt 
37 liters juniper twigs (loosely packed)
6 kg brown sugar
6.5 kg table sugar
+
Water used is from Klintehamn
+
33 grams Gotlansk hops (7.0% AAU) - 20 minutes
+
Fresh baker's yeast
+
60 minute single temp mash at 68 C

Begin by making a juniper liquor with 80 liters of water and 
approx. 25 liters of juniper (a paper grocery bag, loosely 
packed). Heat to boiling. Turn off the heat, cover the pot and 
let the juniper stand in the water 8 hours (overnight). 

Prepare the mash in a large pot by adding the 25 kg of malt and 
enough water so that the malt is completely covered. Let convert 
approx. 60 minutes, mixing occasionally. (Don't use your mash 
tun--you'll need this later.)

Discard the juniper twigs and heat the juniper liquor to 
boiling. 

Sparging and lautering should take place in a mash tun with a 
bottom drain valve. In the bottom of the tun, spread 12 kg of 
fresh juniper twigs (1/2 a paper bag, loosely packed) to create 
a filter bed. Ladle the malt onto the juniper bed and pour the 
rest of the sweet wort into the tun. The boiling juniper liquor 
is now poured into the tun so that it is completely full. Let 
the mixture stand an additional 60 minutes. Drain the sweet wort 
via the bottom valve. Recirculate and sparge with enough water 
to have 125 liters of wort. 

Heat the wort to boiling and carefully skim off the hot break. 
Add the brown sugar, table sugar and hops (in a hop bag). Boil 
the wort 60 minutes, removing the hop bag after 20 minutes.

Chill to 20-25 C and add 1/3 teaspoon of fresh bakers yeast. 
After 2 days of vigorous fermentation, rack to a secondary. 
After 4-6 days of secondary fermentation, the drink is ready for 
consumption. 

This drink continues to develop positively for awhile but is 
considered to be a fresh good and should be not be saved for a 
long time. The sediment which continues to grow over time can be 
removed by additional racking. In order to prolong the 
fermentation, the yeast can be fed regularly with small portions 
of sugar. Note that this drink should be consumed while the 
yeast is active. Directly after fermentation this drink is 
really sweet. The sweetness diminishes, of course, with time. 

Description of the raw ingredients:
Water should have a high calcium content (should be hard).
Juniper should be newly picked and fresh, best if the berries 
are still present. The wood should not be thicker than 10-15 mm.
The malt should be from Gotland with a weak smoke aroma and 
slightly darker color than normal lager malt. (This could be 
replaced with lager malt combined with 3-5% smoked malt and 
0.5% "color" malt (**color may be crystal?)
The hops are a variety that is often grown in Gotland. (German 
or Czech hops could also be used.) 



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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:04:21 -0600
From: "Berggren, Stefan" <stefan_berggren at trekbike.com>
Subject: Used 3 Gallon

Dear HBD'rs

I am on the look out for a used 3 gallon keg(ball lock) or a decently priced
new 3 gallon keg.   Does anyone have any leads on 
these elusive little monsters?  

Cheers, 

Stefan - Madison, WI where its been a three dog night too
long.........(Brrrrrr)

Life must be lived forwards, but can only be understood backwards."--Soren
Kierkegaard




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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:44:04 -0500
From: George de Piro <george at EvansAle.com>
Subject: Re: Lauter efficiency

Hi all,

Bill Tobler wrote, regarding lauter tun design:

> Being curious, and you being in the
> business and all, are the latest lauter tun designs different from what
> typical HB'ers use?  (False bottoms, manifolds, Bazooka type screens) How do
> modern breweries collect the runoff? (Do they sparge slowly, batch sparge,
> no-sparge) Sorry for all the questions, but it's too cold to go out outside
> so I'm sitting at my Mac.
>

The latest design I have seen is a tun called Pegasus, built by Steinecker.
On the surface it looks like a standard commercial lauter tun with a false
bottom (the only manifold designs I have heard of for commercial brewing
were not well accepted and have not been used for a decade or more.  I think
it was an Anheuser-Busch thing).

The most noticeable difference is that Pegasus is donut-shaped; in other
words, there is no middle.  Instead, the shaft to support the rakes and
various plumbing come up through the center.  This is designed like this
because the researchers at Steinecker discovered that there is hardly any
flow at the center of a lauter tun, so the mash bed in the center 1 square
meter is not efficiently lautered.  I doubt that this has much practical
level on a homebrew scale, where the entire lauter tun is much less than 1
sq meter.

The other reason for the donut shape is because the rake velocity near the
center of the tun is so low that the rakes there are practically useless.
By eliminating the center of the tun, they maintain higher flow rates and
efficiency throughout the rest of the tun.  Even if the Pegasus tun is built
to the same overall diameter as a conventional tun, it can maintain higher
flow rates with good efficiency despite the higher grain load, because the
center of the convential tun contributes so little.

The folks at Steinecker have also paid special attention to the flow
dynamics of the wort collection piping.  They found that even one 90 degree
bend will substantially slow the flow in a given pipe, which in turn will
reduce the flow and efficiency of the sparge in the grain bed above that
collection point.

They combat grain bed compaction by utilizing wide diameters at the mouth of
the collection points, so that flow can be high while velocity remains low.
The other key is raking:  most large breweries (if not all) run rakes to
prevent impermeable spots from forming in the grain bed.

Batch sparging is not commonly practiced commercially.  The reason is that
the second runoff is likely to be cloudy, thus requiring a second
recirculation before the second runoff. Why take the time to recirculate
when you can just sparge on the fly?

There are also people that would argue batch sparging produces lower-quality
wort because the second wort will be relatively low in extract but high in
undesirable components.  Perhaps Mr. Alexander has some information about
this?

Bill then asks: 
> How do these big breweries keep the evaporation rate down below 5%?  They
> must have a partially closed system.  My boiloff is up around 15%.

They do it by putting less energy into the system and reducing boil times to
the bare minimum needed for hop utilization and protein and undesirable
volatile removal.  Remember:  you don't need a rolling boil to isomerize
hops, just heat to speed the reaction.  Those of you that whirlpool your
wort should realize that the hop alpha acids continue to be isomerized
during the whirlpool rest, and the oils evaporate off.

To reduce your evaporation at home, simply turn the flame down under your
kettle!  5-10% evaporation should be more than enough to get DMS down to
acceptable levels.

It is damn cold up here.  I look forward to brewing just to keep warm!

Have fun!

George de Piro
Head Brewer, C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
19 Quackenbush Square
Albany, NY, USA 12207
(518)447-9000
www.EvansAle.com

Brewers of Kick-Ass Brown:  Twice declared the Best American Brown Ale in
the USA at the Great American Beer Festival (2000 & 2002)!



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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:55:20 -0800
From: Alan Dowdy <Alan at Auroracorp.com>
Subject: Brewers Resource

When I read the post regarding Brewers Resource going out of business I was
a little concerned, especially since I got a gift certificate from them for
Christmas.  I called Brewers Resource and found out that yes they are
closing their doors.  The young lady I spoke with informed me that all of
their inventory was being shipped to Brewers Rendezvous in Downey, CA and
that they would also be selling their Brewtek yeast line.  She also informed
me that Brewers Rendezvous would honor my gift certificate.  I then called
Brewers Rendezvous and spoke with the owner Bob.  Bob confirmed what the
young lady at Brewers Resource told me and took an order over the phone that
I look forward to picking up next week.  Not only will Brewers Rendezvous be
carrying the product Brewers Resource was carrying but a lot of other stuff
too, including commercial beers for sale.  I thought it was really cool of
Brewers Rendezvous to honor my gift certificate from Brewers Resource and I
look forward to picking up my order (and a few six packs) next week. 

Alan Dowdy
Torrance, CA 


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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:06:23 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude02 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Business Ethics and BJCP Exam

We're really getting far afield with what started out as a complaint 
against St. Pat's (and I admit that I do have a lot to do with that).

First, I'll quickly say to Steve Alexander that although I really respect 
your input with regard to brewing issues, you're off your nut as to ethics 
regarding who does business with whom.  Two primary points that you are 
mistaken on are:

1)  Ethics are basically the means by which you conduct yourself in a moral 
manner.  If I find someone to be offensive to me, I will refuse to deal 
with them.  That is ethical.  If I beat them or humiliate them in the 
process, that would be unethical.  If I find someone to be offensive to me, 
but my reasons are not suitable to you, then I am still conducting myself 
ethically.

2)  Seeking a legal remedy means forcing someone to do what they will not 
do on their own.  There are only three ways to get what you want, by 
trading, receiving a gift, or by force.  Legality or government regulation 
pertains only to that last part.  I will not force someone to do business 
with me.  That would be unethical.<g>

With that said, I think further debate should take place privately-- it has 
really moved beyond the scope of the HBD.

On the BJCP:

Bill Wible makes an excellent point regarding the resistance of "dumbing 
down" the exam.  I know no one has used the phrase "dumbing down" except 
for Bill, but to change it to a simpler format would do exactly that.

People who score well on the exam have a right to be proud of their BJCP 
ranking (once they get the points to back it up), and to move to a multiple 
choice or true false type of exam would cheapen that accomplishment for 
those who already have rank, and cheapen it for those who have yet to get 
to that point.

If the real problem is simply the way your hand cramps up after 3 hours of 
writing, I'd say that you need to start working that hand-- write for 30 
minutes a day for a week, then move up.  I have noticed myself that I 
cannot write longhand the way I did 15 years ago, but that was before 
computers had become the staple that they are now.  Train those muscles the 
way you'd train for a marathon!  (I'm thinking that's not a bad idea-- the 
last time I took the exam I missed my chance at National because my hand 
ran out of steam.)

Just my $0.02

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.




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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:29:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald La Borde <pivoron at yahoo.com>
Subject: Free Market, writer's cramp, Vienna, woordy boilerplate

>From: mailto:steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net
>Subject: re:  Free Market
>
>Just the opposite.   Reserving the right to 'refuse
>to serve' permits you to
>discriminate against left handers, Alaskans, old
>people, folks of a
>particular sex .. all sorts of things.   It's
>unethical IMO to refuse a sale
>just because the customer is female or a lefty.  This
>one is legal but
>sometimes unethical IMO.

Awh, gee, why does it seem that almost everyone
thinks discrimination is a bad thing?  Shucks, I
discriminate
all the time, I avoid Mardi Gras in New Orleans,
avoid eating high fat foods, avoid smoking, avoid
so many things that it's almost impossible to list
them all.

Have we all been brainwashed by the contemporary buzz
words force fed to us by the media and lawyers?
C'mon guys, use the brain, use it or loose it!

>From: mailto:bill at brewbyyou.net
>Subject: re: BJCP exam/writer's cramp
>
>All this recent complaining about the BJCP exam makes
>me think of "standardized testing" and all the
>complaining
>that led to the total "dumbing down" of high school
>testing, SAT's and college entrance exams.
>...
>Leave the exam exactly as it is.

Right on, Bill. Really, how many times do you guys
take the exam in a lifetime?  Quit crying about a
minor thing.

>From: mailto:up883 at victoria.tc.ca
>Subject: Vienna
>
>I have an opportunity to attend a conference in
>Vienna this April -
>it's being held at the University of Agricultural
>Sciences (Universitat
>fur Bodenkultur). I'm wondering if anyone in hbd-land
>has
>recommendations for breweries or pubs that are
must->see's?

Yes go to the Augustiner Keller in the center of town.

You just must go to Figlemuller's (behind St. Stephens
Cathedral) 
for the Wiener Schnitzel.
We know it as a veal cutlet.  This place has the
greatest
Schnitzel, it is very thinly cut, completely covers
the plate
and hangs over the side.  Not greasy, delicious.

As a funny side note about language, my wife and I
were
trying to find Figlemuller's, we were close to it but
just
could not find it so we kept asking about a dozen 
people where is 'figel..mule..ers, and they had a
blank
look on their faces.  Finally, I pointed to a map we
had and
someone said oh 'feeegel...mooouuulers' and directed
us
there.

When you have quenched your thirst, go to the
Belvedere Palece and see the Gustav Klimt paintings.
It's an easy walk or bus ride.

Go to the Kunsthistoriches museum, on the Ring.
You don't want to miss this!

>From: mailto:dtowson at comcast.net
>Subject: Wordy boilerplate at end of posts
>
>Lately, I've noticed an increasing amount of
time-and->bandwidth- wasting 
>stuff hanging on the ends of digest posts......
>....
>we'd all appreciate it, especially those who have to
>use a dialup 
>connection to download this irrelevant material.

Yes Dave, it's annoying, but the text takes only
milliseconds to 
travel, even with your modem.  If it were graphics,
maybee
download time would matter, but this extra text - no.

It is unnecessary for other reasons though.

>From: jayspies at att.net
>Subject: legal mumbo jumbo
>
> ...They *evolved* on their own, and 
>simply possessing them as they do so does not confer
>the status necessary for 
>patent recognition.  However, for example, if you
>genetically engineer a 
>disease or pest resistant strain of carrots, you
>would be eligible to apply 
>for a plant patent because you actively *created* the
>thing.  See the 
>difference?...

Seems like I remember hearing that someone has a
patent on the 'Human Genome'.  Now charges can
be levied against others for use of the patented
object.

Actually, I think that greedy people would charge for
the air we breathe if they could only find a way.


=====
Ron
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:20:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles at thestewarts.com
Subject: Discrimination and The Free Market

On Wed, 22 Jan, "Steve Alexander" enlightened us on the Free Market:

> Just the opposite.   Reserving the right to 'refuse to serve' permits you to
> discriminate against left handers, Alaskans, old people, folks of a
> particular sex .. all sorts of things.

Not all sorts of things . . . just many sorts of things.  Actually, I believe a
commercial establishment may find itself in trouble for refusing service to
someone based on Federally protected classes of race, color, religion, national
origin (does that apply to Mr. Sedam here?), and sex (and sexual orientation in
several states).  Under the Interstate Commerce Clause, thexception would be
clubs that: (1) are private; and (2) accept dues; and (3)are selective in
choosing its members; and, (4) Have voting membership.  Many state laws even
restrict the club exception.  So your local home brew club MAY be able to
discriminate, but your shop couldn't.

> >[...]  I  refused [...to sell ....]
> > Why?  Because I had an exclusive distribution deal in the
> >U.S. with two other companies.  I simply could not ethically sell direct,
> >even though I had no written contract stipulating that.
> 
> This is a legal restriction Eric.  Verbal contracts are valid and so selling
> direct would have violated your verbal exclusive distribution contract.
> It'd be unethical to breach your verbal contract too.

Actually, 

Any agreement with a duration that exceeds a year is unenforceable unless in
writing under the Statute of Frauds as codified in all state laws.  So any such
oral agreement is unenforceable.  As they say . . . an oral contract isn't worth
the paper it's written on.

[Smartass mode off]

Chip Stewart
Charles at TheStewarts.com
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com

Support anti-Spam legislation.
Join the fight http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:36:51 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: yeast controversy

Mark (one of at least 518 M. French's) writes:

> 
> Sorry, Mark, I can't agree with you on this one either.  At 
> the end of the day, your arguments sound an awful lot like 
> the kids defending Napster. 
> Repitching you own yeast is one thing, but IMHO, 
> redistributing even 10cc for even no profit is something else 
> entirely.  You save four bucks, but you are taking money out 
> of your local proprietor's pockets, and you are depriving 
> White Labs and Wyeast profits that drive their R&D and new 
> product development.

R&D?!!!! Hey, these companies aren't exactly finding a cure for AIDS. Marc
Sedam sends Chris White a sample of a certain Swiss brewery's yeast and
BANG... White Labs is selling the Zurich Lager Strain so homebrewers
everywhere can take their shot at Samiclaus. That's some R&D budget!

This isn't like Monsanto developing Round-up resistant canola strains.
Wyeast and White Labs didn't perform any genetic engineering marvels, they
just took existing organisms with a natural tendency to reproduce, and
parlayed those tendencies into profit. Not that there is anything wrong with
that. Sure, the production facilities are top-notch, and they can be rightly
proud of the products they produce. But to claim these organisms as their
property, ad infinitum,...? Bet it wouldn't stand up to a court challenge. 

Listen, if I go out and buy a couple of rabbits from the pet store, do you
think they have a right to come after me if I decide to sell off the
offspring? I can do whatever I want with my yeast slurries, and if Chris or
Dave don't like that attitude, they are welcome to come up to Canada and
take me on. If my LHBS proprietor doesn't like it because I'm giving away
yeast and depriving him of a sale, what's he going to do? Refuse to sell to
me like some petulant Texan? Big woop, I order on-line. That's the nice
thing about having money. I can afford to buy whatever I want, wherever I
can get it, no matter what it costs. I don't have to suck up to some store
owner just to keep a few measly bucks in my wallet.

Here's my message to retailers. Take the business you get, be happy you are
getting it, and don't whine too loudly about the stuff you aren't getting.
You made the decision to be self-employed instead of slaving away in a 9-5
job like most of us. Nobody put a gun to your head and said open a homebrew
shop, or else. Fact is, if you have even a half-ways decent personality and
business savvy, you will do just fine from the vast majority of customers
who don't share yeasts or purchase things in bulk. We are just small puddles
of spilled milk in your entrepeneurial fridge. If you go out of business,
it's not because of a homebrew club.

Brian


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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:12:53 -0500
From: "Frank Tutzauer" <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: BJCP exam formats; apple juice starters; vessels with pestle

Bill thinks multiple-choice exams are a joke:

>God bless the BJCP for actually requiring people to
>articulate thoughts in writing, and for not providing
>easy-answer, multiple-guess questions.

 ...

>...the current exam ... requires the examinees
>to think and form sentences, and work in the material -
>if they know it to begin with.  The examinees can only
>write what they know, not guess at answers that were already
>provided.

You obviously haven't seen the essays that my students write!  They
have no problem writing what they don't know.  Seriously, as someone
who has designed many exams, of both the multiple-choice and essay
formats, my students tend to prefer the essay exams because they think
they can BS for partial credit whereas a multiple-choice answer is
either right or wrong.

As Nate said the other day, a well-designed multiple-choice test can
be a very good test of knowledge and skills.  In fact I venture to say
that my multiple-choice exams are a *better* test of what my students
have learned than essay exams.  When I teach a 300-person lecture
course, I'm forced to use multiple-choice because there's no way to
grade 300 essay exams; in my 20-person classes I use essays...but NOT
because they're better.  It's because a good multiple-choice test
takes so damned much effort to create.

The ridiculous, rote-memory, "multiple-guess" tests that Bill decries,
well I agree they're a joke.  But no one is saying we should use a
*bad* multiple-choice test; use a good one.  You can have poorly
designed essay exams, too, but no one is advocating their use.  As
Nate says, it's whether you want to put your time into designing the
test or grading it.  True, a multiple-choice test won't allow you to
assess writing skills (not easily, at least; it can be done, though),
but writing can be assessed by giving the examinees scoresheets to
fill out, if that's what you want.

All that being said, I have no preference on which format the BJCP
should use, as long as it is well-designed.  There's nothing intrinsic
to the format that would rule out either type as long as the test is
properly designed.

**************

Rama comments on apple-juice starters:

>I haven't brewed cider before, but tried my hand at a
>mead...and know that you need to add yeast nutrient...
>and I would suspect that's true with apple juice.
>... You would be much better off using DME...

I agree that DME is better, and I can't ever think of myself using
apple juice for a starter, but I might mention an alternative:  Malta Goya.
It's basically sugary malt syrup.  I'm always a little queasy using it
because of the high simple-sugar content, but I keep a few bottles
around for emergencies, like running out of DME or being too drunk or
lazy to make a proper starter.  The three or four times I've used it
I've had no problems, but I stick with DME when I can.

**********

Finally:

What's the deal with all this vessel with the pestle stuff?  There's
obviously something you all find amusing that I don't get.  No fair
using unattributed literary references, or you'll be cast into the
Gorge of Eternal Peril, also known as rec.crafts.brewing (for my own
unattributed reference and with apologies to Brian Lundeen).

 --frank in Buffalo



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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:29:52 -0500
From: "Martin Brungard" <Martin.Brungard at trow.com>
Subject: Diode Installation for RIMS

I have to admit that I'm a semi-intelligent civil engineer with a good
understanding of electrical power wiring.  But when it comes to risking my
life with electronic "enhancements" to my RIMS, I'm willing to ask for advice
before cooking MY goose.

My RIMS is currently controlled with an on/off switch.  This has proven to be
acceptable under most conditions, but there are times when I wish the power
density on my heating element were even lower.  Therefore, I want to wire in
a diode into the heater power circuit.  

I'm using a low density heater element rated at 4800w at 240v.  I'm running
it at 120v, so my calculations indicate that the heater resistance is 12 ohms
and the corresponding current is 10 amps under 120v power.  This gives 1200w.


>From the data above, it appears that I will need a diode that can handle at
least 10 amps and have a reverse voltage rating of at least 120v.  I see that
Digi Key has 12a, 200v diodes available.  I assume one of these would work. 

I see that wiring a standard 3-way wall switch into my present switched
circuit should enable me to still have on/off control and hi/lo heater
settings.  My question to the electrical mavens in the group:

1. Are my calculations correct?
2. Is a 12a, 200v diode suitable for use in this heater power supply
arrangement? 
3. Will the diode need a heat sink?
4. Is this approach still safe?  There is a GFCI on the power supply.

Thanks for the help.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL


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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:28:23 -0500
From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: BJCP exam discussion

Dave Towson asks about how the BJCP would handle giving the exam to someone
who is "partially sighted" or "legally blind."   Since I'm the MidAtlantic
Representative for the BJCP and as such David's representative I'll take a
shot at answering this question.  I believe that the handling of any such
special request by any handicapped individual would be considered by the
Board on a case-by-case basis.  It probably should not be up to the decision
of the particular test administrator but rather the BJCP Board of Directors
so that we handle all such requests on a fair and equal basis.  Perhaps in
David's case it could be providing a copy of test in large type or allowing
more time if that's the remedy for his particular handicap.  While I can't
speak for any other Board member, I do believe that the Board would be open
to working with any handicapped individuals in considering their requests.

Dave Houseman




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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:31:04 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Boulevard Unfiltered Wheat

Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com> wants to clone Boulevard Unfiltered Wheat:

>Ingredients include Pale Munich and Aromatic malts.
>Unmalted soft red winter wheat. ... What has me the most confused is 
>the use of Unmalted soft red winter wheat.

I've written about unmalted soft wheat before.  Your best bet is a 
health food store or food co-op.  They're often sold as wheat 
berries.  I actually prefer soft white winter wheat rather than red, 
but it's a small difference.  I use it at 45% in wit beer.

I don't know what percentage they use, but with unmalted wheat you 
may want to stay at 30% or less, especially if you are using Munich 
malt as a base, which does not have a lot of extra enzymes.  I think 
I'd use a base of 2-row brewers malt, myself, plus the Munich, 
aromatic and wheat.  You'll note that it says that the ingredients 
"include" pale Munich, etc.  To me, this suggests there are other 
ingredients.  I don't think that Munich would be the base malt.

You can grind soft wheat pretty easily in a Corona mill.  Go for a 
coarse meal, not a fine flour.  I just put it in the mash raw, but 
often use a 15 minute protein rest at 122F.  Soft wheat has a low 
protein level (~9%), and it is not glutenous, so I never need to use 
rice hulls,  YMMV.

Hope this helps.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:52:55 -0800
From: Tom Okerlund <tfo at mindsync.com>
Subject: No carbonation in first batch of HB

I'm really new to home brewing (I've been enjoying beer for a long time,
just not brewing it). I've got a couple of questions I can't fine the
answers to in any of my brewing books... I brewed my first batch (5 gallons
of malt extract-based Brown Ale) around new years and bottled on Jan
12,2003. OG=1.048, FG=1.018, boiled 3/4 cup corn sugar with 2 cups of water
for 10 minutes and gently stirred it into the beer. It's been stored at
63-66F since then. Just couldn't wait so I chilled and poped a bottle on
Jan. 19 (7 days later) and no carbonation had developed. Did I just not
wait long enough? Should it be stored a little warmer (68-70F) to get the
yeast active? The beer looked very clear when I racked it into my bottling
bucket. Did enough yeast get into the bottles? I'd really appreciate any
ideas anyone has, especially since I have a batch of Pilsner brewing right
now...  and will be wanting to bottle it soon...
Thanks, Tom.  From Paradise, in the foothills outside of Chico, CA.




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Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 03:10:53 +0100
From: Arnaud VIEZ <aviez at teaser.fr>
Subject: Beer taxation in France

Hello fellow brewers,

I read with interest the post of Alan Mc Kay (dated 10 January,
I am a bit late on my HBD readings) about the beer over-taxation in France.
I would like to say that numerous french beer amateurs also rise against 
this
ridiculous and outrageous law, and to inform you about the existence of 
a petition,
accessible at : "http://petition.atpub.org/en".

 >Since virtually no French brewers are affected
 >by the tax
Au contraire!
Here is the list of good french beers which are endangered :

   Brewery          |   Departement        |   Name of the beer     |Alc.%
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
B. A. Tribbiera     |Corse - 20            |Apa                     |  9
B. du Roy           |Cote d'Or - 21        |La Tavernoel            |  9.7
B. Sainte-Colombe   |Ille et Vilaine - 35  |Grand Cru               | 10
B. de Granges/Baumes|Jura - 39             |Nebuleuse brune         |  9
B. du Cambier       |Nord - 59             |Iris ambree de Noel     |  9.5
B. La Choulette     |Nord - 59             |La Millenaire           |  9
B. de Gayant        |Nord - 59             |Biere du Demon          | 12
B. Grain d'Orge     |Nord - 59             |Belzebuth               | 13
B. St-Sylvestre     |Nord - 59             |3 Monts                 |  8.5
                    |                      |Gavroche                |  8.5
                    |                      |Biere de Noel           |  8.5
B. du Cerf          |Puy de Dome - 63      |Biere brune des Volcans |  9
B. de Saverne       |Bas-Rhin - 67         |8.8 Extra Strong        |  8.8
B. La Rondelle      |Saone et Loire - 71   |La rondelle             |  9
                    |                      |Le brassin              | 12
B. de St-Martin     |Tarn et Garonne - 82  |Noel                    |  9.7
B. Lancelot         |Morbihan - 56         |XI.I                    | 11


arnaud at brasserie-du-coin.com





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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:00:52 -0800
From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: Aid in kettle conversions

Can anyone refer me to a site with solid info on kettle conversions?  I
am looking for pix and ideas on hardware.  I am a little nervous about
the drilling process, too, so any advice or resource recommendations
would be much appreciated.

Parker


Joke-  "A pirate walks into a bar and the barkeep says, 'hey mister, you
got a steering wheel hooked to your crotch'  to which the pirate
replies, 'Arrrrgh, I know, it's drivin' me nuts!'"





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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:38:09 -0500
From: "Bob Sutton" <Bob at homebrew.com>
Subject: LBHS Chatter

Mark debates Mark over the legitimacy of 10-ml of yeast stating...

"your arguments sound an awful lot like the kids defending Napster.
Repitching you own yeast is one thing, but IMHO, redistributing even 10cc
for even no profit is something else entirely"

Gee Mark (or is it Mark... ), does that mean we all should quit brewing beer
and giving it to our friends... I'd hate to think that I'm taking money out
of my local retailer's pockets, and depriving Anheuser Busch profits that
drive their R&D and new product development... bummer...

I suppose I'm lucky to HAVE a local beer retailer, as a lot of folks
don't...

Just what am I going do with that Fermenator now...

Bob
Fruit Fly Brewhaus
Yesterdays' Technology Today



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---