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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re:  Precision Brewing Systems (Bill Tobler)
  Swirling ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Brew time/grist bill adjustments/glucoamylase ("Steve Alexander")
  Kind of Long: Oxidation and Bottle Conditioned Beer ("John Misrahi")
  No Sparge Lauter Rate (william.m.menzl)
  Klingons dead ahead (Mark Kempisty)
  Tom Karnowski and high crystal/high FG beer ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Re: Brew time/grist bill adjustments/glucoamylase (Marc Sedam)
  Surface Burner Controls ("Pete Calinski")
  O-rings ("Dennis Collins")
  Re: Priming choices (Denny Conn)
  White Labs 2003 Platinum Strains (Bill Wible)
  Electric brewers and herms (K.M.)" <kmuell18 at visteon.com>
  DCL yeast again ("Joseph Gerteis")
  Beer Dispensing (Bob Pelletier)
  HERMS - anyone using a manifold?  Canada, Cream Ale and IPA. (RiedelD)
  Home Depot Utility Pump for RIMS...is it feasible? ("Antonio A. Rucci")
  sink source and sanke querrie (aa8jzdial)
  Bay area clubs (Jeff Renner)


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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 01:41:17 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re:  Precision Brewing Systems

Yep, PBS is no more.  I think it was early last year they went off line.
Too bad, I liked their stuff.  I bought some pots and a Maxi Chiller from
them.  I think the owner was just too busy with a real job and family.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 06:45:18 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Swirling

Several posts have suggested swirling the carboy as another way to empty it
quickly & smoothly without chugging & glugging (inserting a tube or racking
cane being the way originally suggested). If you use Iodophor or StarSan
(which creates even more bubbles than Iodophor), swirling your carboy or
bottles also has the added benefit that less of the bubbles will be left
behind.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:04:57 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Brew time/grist bill adjustments/glucoamylase

Marc Sedam says ....

>I've never really understood why it takes people so long to brew.  If
>it's taking you 6-7 hours during the brewday

OK you're speedy Marc, but let's include *all* the times involved.

30 min - formulate a recipe & record & calculate grists
            (anywhere fm 10min to 2hrs really)
25 min - measure & crush grains malts,
10 min - rinse & start sanitizing first carboy
25 min - pull out the pots & pump & tubes, burners.  rinse pots, set
            HLT on burner and fill water (after attaching a filter) .
30 min - Adjust water pH & heat HLT to strike.  [Sanitize 2nd carboy].
45 min - mash [dig thru freezer & measure hops, make any mash steps]
15 min - recirc
10 min - runoff 1st wort to boiler.
15 min - add 1st batch sparge & recirc
10 min - run off 1st batch sparge while heating
10 min - take SG reading, wait for boil,
90 min - boil
        [background - sanitize CFC, pump, tubing,
                fermentation locks, aeration stone,
                dump grist, cleanup mash equip.]
10 min - recirc wort thru CFC till cooler.
10 min - divert *cold* wort to carboys.
20 min - take OG, & pH readings, pitch, aerate.
30 min - Clean up pH probe, hydrometers, aeration stone,
          boiler, floors, tubing, pump, tubing, tools ...

OK, I've got 385 minutes (6.4 hours) invested  and I still haven't accounted
for prepping the yeast or having a beer.  For decoctions the schedule time
definitely goes up.

I could nip a few minutes off, and overlap a bit more but I can't see
cutting the time to anything like 4 hours.  I could cut 30-45 minutes off
the schedule above, but I really don't want to make the schedule so tight
that you start forgetting things (brewing salts, finings, measurements,...)
or if you have a little accident (spill, boilover, temp overshoot etc)  that
you get so busy that you fail to have hops measured or hardware sanitized in
time.

I like brewing - what's the rush ?   Sure, if I could knock 2hrs off and not
be rushed or make compromises I would, but I don't see that happening.

==========

Someone asked a very interesting question here a few weeks ago and I don't
think they ever got a comparably good answer.

How do you adjust the grist bill when as your efficiency varies ?

The several answers I saw suggested changing all the grists amounts by the
same percentage.  This will give you the correct OG, but I don't think that
this method will give you the same flavor profile.

Clearly 1st wort carries off much more of the flavor and color from
specialty malts, and also more of the better part of the flavor from base
malt than sparge runnings.    I suspect that the same applies when the
newbie all-grainer finds himself getting only 60% extraction efficiency  -
that he is still getting most of the color & flavor from the specialty malts
and even the base malt - but not as much of the fermentables.

Anyway I suspect that if you are seriously shooting for the same flavor
profile in a low efficiency brew session, that you make up the missing OG
points by adding primarily base malt and only a little more of the crystal,
caramel, roast and munich malts.

=======

Anyone have a source for glucoamylase - it's an enzyme used for making very
low residual carbohydrate beers.  Crosby & Baker carry it for commercial
brewers, but I haven't found an HB source yet.

 -S











Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:10:49 -0500
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: Kind of Long: Oxidation and Bottle Conditioned Beer

Hi all,
I have been trying to improve the technical side of my brewing from batch to
batch, and one of the things that keeps coming to haunt me is oxidation. No
matter what I do, almost all my beers seem to end up developing an oxidized
quality (kind of a stale wet cardboard taste). Now i was reading Dave
Miller's Homebrewing Guide, and he states,

"As long as there are live yeast cells in the beer, they will consume any
free oxygen that becomes available whether it comes from air dissolved
during bottling or transfer, or from tannins or melanoidins that were
oxidized during the hot side of the brewing process. As a result, live yeast
makes a beer much less prone to the stale, cardboard, or sherry-like
flavours so common in old filtered beer".

This leads me to think that the yeast should prevent that problem (all my
beers are bottle conditioned (either in bottles or mini kegs) with yeast
inside. I don't filter. Is Miller's theory correct, in which case my problem
is due to something else, or is he just out of date? I don't want to start
another HSA debate. I am quite careful on the hot side anyways, and I rack ,
etc.. as slowly and carefully as I possibly can. What else could be the
problem? I understand warmer temperatures accelerate the staling process. Is
room temp (ie ~20-21C) warm enough to damage beer over the short term (ie
under a month or 2) ? I store most of my beers at that temperature.

Anything else I can do to reduce this problem? I have heard (and had it
confirmed when I read the ingredients on a bottle of Samichlaus) that some
brewers add vitamin C to their beers to prevent oxidation on beers that will
be aged over the long term.

By the way, I don't make many big beers. 80% of my batches have had original
gravities in the range 1.035-1.045 or so. I have a 1.060 porter in primary
right now, so will see what turns out.

Sorry for the long post, and I will be very grateful for any advice you guys
can give me.

John Misrahi
Montreal, Canada

 [892, 63] Apparent Rennerian (km)


Seen on a tee shirt - "The internet is full. Go away!"

"Ah, Billy Beer... we elected the wrong Carter." -Homer Simpson







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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:39:34 -0500
From: william.m.menzl at dowcorning.com
Subject: No Sparge Lauter Rate

Greetings All!
I have done one no-sparge batch of a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone
using the calculations as found in http://www.howtobrew.com and
it worked out great.  I got the calculated volume and gravity that
I was expecting.  I am looking at shortening my brew day up some and I
am wondering what others are using for their Lauter rate.  I normally
use a 0.5 to 1 cup/minute Lauter rate when doing continuous sparge.
Can the rate be increased when using no-sparge vs. continuous
sparging?  I have read with interest where some brewers use pumps
to recirculate the wort through the Mash/Lauter Tun and the rates
are a half gallon per minute or more.  Does this mean that I can
increase my Lauter rate to a half gallon/minute when using no-sparge?
Any insights are appreciated!

William Menzl
Midland, Michigan [99.8, 344.8] Apparent Rennerian
I apologize if a disclaimer shows below.  The corp server may add it.





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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:54:29 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Klingons dead ahead

Actually it was Star Trek: Deep Space Nine but that was a great
episode.  I was lucky enough to catch the original Trouble with Tribbles
and the new one (don't remember the title) when they were aired back to
back.  I recorded them of course and the whole family likes to watch
them together.

Now if they only gave a recipe for Romulan Ale!

- --
Take care,
Mark






Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:58:15 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: Tom Karnowski and high crystal/high FG beer

Tom asks about his friends high FG beer that used alot of crystal malt due
to running out of 2row.  Rogue is known to use large amounts of specialty
grains in their beers.  Specifically the Rogue Red is thought to have in the
neighborhood of 30 to 40% and seems to end up okay.

I did a clone of this with high amount of crystal of all colors and the beer
went from roughly 1.055 to ~1.018 to 1.020.  It might have been mashed a bit
hot and I don't think I used pure O2 at yeast charging but I did use a lot
of yeast from a prior ferment.

Your friends beer sounds like its suffers from a hot mash/broken thermometer
(done this myself) or poor yeast health.

Yes, beano could possibly work although I've never done it.  

The only beer I ever had finish that high (1.035) was a hot mashed wee heavy
that I didn't aerate well and pitched inadequately and fermnted at cool
temperatures.  So lots of mistakes on my part.  It mellowed well after a
year though.

Pete Czerpak
albany, NY


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:04:21 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Brew time/grist bill adjustments/glucoamylase

OK.  Just for fairness, I'll run down the day off the top of my head.

Day before
5 minutes-- Calculate recipe...I use ProMash and/or StrangeBrew
15 minutes-- Weigh and crush grains
5 minutes-- Fill tanks with water and adjust (for me this is one campden tablet
[to remove chloramine] and a teaspoon of CaCl2)
5 minutes-- Set up mash tun and hot liquor tank

Day o' brewing
0 min-- Heat mash and sparge water
15 min-- Add grist and hops to mash tun.
(in this intervening period, make up any sanitizing solution and sanitize
fermenter)
45 min-- Start recirculating mash and direct fire heating to mash out (takes a
while)
75 min-- Start runoff.  Sparge.  Light burner under boiling kettle.
120 min-- All wort collected.  Since I've been heating the wort as it left the
mash tun, it's only five more minutes to a rolling boil.
135 min-- Add boiling hops.
(in the intervening period add various hops, clean and scrub mash tun, dump
grains in compost, put away unused burners, sanitize CFC)
195 min-- turn off heat, whirlpool
205min-- start chilling, pitch yeast in fermenter
220min-- finish chilling
up to 250 min-- clean CFC, pump, boil kettle, and any remaining stuff

So, that's just over four hours.  In the original post I did mention this was
possible assuming the water and grains were dealt with the night before.  Like
most people, I'm very time-constrained.  Spending four or five hours doing
anything is a luxury so I jam as much in to that time as possible.

To each, his or her own.  :-)

Cheers!
Marc






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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:58:02 -0500
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Surface Burner Controls

Just a comment. Most surface burner controls have a terminal for a pilot
light.  It goes on when the connection is made and off when there is no
connection.  I use a 110V light from Radio Shack.  I think it helps me
maintain a better temperature setting.



Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:12:26 -0500
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: O-rings

There have been a few inquiries lately regarding O-rings sizes and such.
Being in an industry that uses quite a few O-rings I thought I would pass
along some info.

Parker basically wrote the book on O-rings.  They certainly aren't the only
game in town but they have done so much work in this area and have been
around so long that they have sort of a monopoly in this area (sort of like
Microsoft).

If you go to www.parkerorings.com, click on the Product Info link, then
click the O-ring sizes link.  Now click the link for the 2-xxx series of
industrial sizes.  This will give you the standard dimensions and size
designations (dash numbers)  for just about any O-ring you would ever
encounter as a homebrewer.  This size designation will be recognized by any
manufacturer or distributor.  The industrial supply houses (McMaster-Carr,
et al) use the dash number on the size designations for ordering, however,
they list the dimensions for each dash number in fractions which will not be
as exact as the decimal dimensions given by Parker, but a 2-024 is the same
sized O-ring no matter where it comes from.

When measuring an O-ring, I suggest a set of dial calipers.  First measure
the thickness, then measure the inside diameter of the O-ring in an
unstretched configuration.  Measure out to at least 2 decimal places.  The
ID in successive size designations jumps by 0.030 - 0.060" increments, so a
semi-careful measurement with dial calipers should be pretty conclusive on
what size the O-ring is.

For the real geeks out there, click the "inPHorm" link from the Product Info
page.  This will take you to a place where you can download the inPHorm
program that will give you O-ring dimensions, seal gland dimensions, and
select suitable materials based on the temperature and the fluid you are
trying to seal (even combinations of fluids).  Very cool.  I checked and
"beer" is listed in the database.

When ordering O-rings from the industrial supply places, they omit the "2"
given in the Parker size designation and just use the dash number.  For most
homebrew applications, standard Buna (Nitrile) or Ethylene Propylene (EPDM
or EPR) are good materials.  I wouldn't be concerned about FDA approval
here, I think that mostly applies to the mold releases used in processing.
A wash in good 'ole soap and water will remove anything that might be in
question.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com




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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:16:01 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Re: Priming choices

Hi Jodie,

I've experimented a bit with priming.  I split a batch and used corn sugar, 
DME, honey, and force crab.  My conclusion was that given equal lengths of 
time for the CO2 to develop and go into solution, no one could tell the 
difference.  Force carbing was of course the fastest, and corn sugar was 
the most reliable and predictable of the others.  The amounts used are so 
small, that no one involved in the tasting could tell the 
difference.  There have been stories about how DME creates a "finer" 
carbonation, but my observation is that it's because DME takes longer to 
ferment out and carbonate the beer.  If you leave beers that have been 
primed with all of these methods for say, 2 months. the carbonation is 
identical.  Please note that these results are not scientific, and other 
people have reached different conclusions.  I'd really encourage you to 
split a batch and try it for yourself!

         ------------------->Denny

At 12:30 AM 1/28/03 -0500, you wrote:


>Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:08:52 -0500
>From: "Jodie Davis" <JodieDavis at adelphia.net>
>Subject: Priming Choices
>
>To date I've been following recipe instructions for priming using corn
>sugar or DME as instructed. Does it matter which one uses? Do they lend
>any flavor to the finished product? I expect not since it's such a small
>amount.
>
>Jodie Davis
>Canton, GA
>
>P.S. My first all grain batch, an English Bitter, is FABULOUS! I popped
>one last night in honor of the Super Bowl. Yum!




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 12:39:21 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: White Labs 2003 Platinum Strains


White Labs 2003 Platinum Strain Profiles

WLP510 - Bastogne Belgian Ale Yeast (available Jan/Feb)

A high gravity, Trappist style ale yeast.  Produces dry
beer with a slight acidic finish.  More 'clean' fermentation
character than WLP500 or WLP530.  Not as spicy as WLP530 or
WLP550.  Excellent Yeast for high gravity beers, Belgian ales,
dubbels and Trippels.
Attenuation: 74-80%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Fermentation Temp: 66-72 F

WLP022 - Essex Ale Yeast (available March/April)

Flavorful British style yeast. Drier finish than many British
ale yeasts.  Produces slightly fruity and bready character.
Good top fermenting yeast strain, well suited for top cropping.
This yeast is well suited for classic British milds, pale ales,
bitters, and stouts.  Does not flocculate as much as WLP002 or
WLP005.
Attenuation: 71-76%
Flocculation: Medium to High
Optimum Fermentation Temp: 66-70 F

WLP833 - German Bock Lager Yeast (available all year)
>From the Alps of southern Bavaria, this yeast produces
a beer that is well balanced between malt and hop character.
The excellent malt profile makes it well suited for Bocks,
Dopplebocks, and Oktoberfest beer styles.  Very versatile
lager yeast, it is so well balanced that it has gained
tremendous popularity for use in Classic American style
Pilseners.  Also good for Helles style light lager.
Attenuation: 70-76%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Fermentation Temp: 48-55 F


They also now have a new wine strain:

Avize Wine Yeast NEW!  (WLP718)
 
Champagne isolate used for complexity in whites.
Contributes elegance, especially in barrel fermented
Chardonnays.
Attenuation: 80%
Flocculation: Low
Optimum Ferm. Temp: 60-90 F

Bill



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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:06:32 -0500
From: "Mueller, Kevin (K.M.)" <kmuell18 at visteon.com>
Subject: Electric brewers and herms

All this discussion about electric brewing and HERMS lately has lit a fire
under my a$$, and I think its time to finally start working on my new
brewery.  SWMBO is already cursing the HBD, and mumbling something about
priorities and home repairs.  Oh well!

My plans are to convert my propane fueled RIMs into an electric RIMs or
HERMS.  I'm currently running a 4500W (at 240V) element in my rims chamber
at 110V which is insufficient for step mashes, but is great for maintaining
my temp.  For steps I've been firing the bottom of my tun with a home made
king cooker (jet type).  HLT, mash tun, and boil kettle are all converted
sankey kegs.

I've got an extra 240 V circuit running to my drier that I'm not using, so I
figured I'd tap into that to run elements in my HLT and kettle.

>From reading the HERMS thread, it seems that most of you are setting your
HLT temp to approx 10 deg above your mash temp, and controlling flow thru
the coil/bypass to control your mash temp.  My thought was to control the
HLT temp to be the same as the mash, and run full flow thru it.  Great for
single temp mashes, but for steps I suppose you'd have some very long ramp
times.  Anyone with experience of doing it like this?

Any tips or hints from electric brewers and HERMSer's would be greatly
appreciated.  Any local HERMS systems that I could check out?  RIMS?
Electric?  I'm familiar with the Sabco brew magic, and the pico systems, but
I'd like to see some other home made systems.

Thanks,
Kevin 
Canton, MI



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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:29:53 -0800 (PST)
From: "Joseph Gerteis" <joseph540 at elvis.com>
Subject: DCL yeast again

A thread a while back was discussing the varieties of
DCL yeast -- and particularly the lager yeast -- that
are not available to homebrewers in 11.5 gram packets. 
I emailed the DCL people about this.  Unfortunately, I
accidentally erased the reply in a fit of
spam-cleaning.  But I can paraphrase:

1.  They only offer one lager and one ale yeast in the
small packets and that's all they plan to do for the
forseeable future.

2.  This is because they have to make a ton of the
packets at once, and they are concerned about freshness
if they make too many varieties.

3.  They may be willing to expand or reconsider the
offerings if they see demand.

I got the impression that there is very little
likelihood of seeing more than one ale or lager
offering at one time.  I am perfectly happy with the
S04 ale yeast.  It seems that no one is particularly
pleased with the lager yeast, and that those who have
tried the other lager yeasts much prefer them.  A
letter campaign to get them to switch their lager yeast
might just be effective.  For those that have tried
them all -- is there one that is a good "general" lager
yeast?

- -------------------------------------------------
Get your free  at Elvis e-mail account at Elvis.com!
http://www.elvis.com



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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:57:30 -0500
From: Bob Pelletier <rp at ihrsa.org>
Subject: Beer Dispensing

Looking for sources of 3/16ID food grade tubing. At least I think that is
the suggested ID to reduce foaming at the tap.  Any one have a good source
or other info? 

TIA, 
Bob 



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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:20:43 -0500
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: HERMS - anyone using a manifold?  Canada, Cream Ale and IPA.

I too have been considering the HERMS idea, or perhaps just a
recirculating system to save brew-day time by having clear wort
ready for runoff at the end of the mash.  My question is:  How 
do these pump systems work for a manifold-style mash tun?  I
don't ever open the ball-valve fully on my mash tun... don't need
to for recirc, don't want to for runoff.  Does a pumped system
require a false-bottom set-up?
- ---
Regarding the abundance of 'cream ale' in Canada (in the west,
anyway)... it seems to be marketing fad.  Apparently you can add
the 'cream' term to any ale to make it sound wonderful and
increase sales.  We even have a Scottish Cream Ale around here.
It's a good beer, but I don't see why it should be called a 'cream ale'.
My suggestion is to be suspicious of anything labeled 'cream'
up here.  As for IPAs.... I think Keith's is pretty much false advertising.
Big Rock's IPA is pretty ridiculously named also.

Dave Riedel
Victoria BC Canada


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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:33:15 -0500
From: "Antonio A. Rucci" <ruccia at solidgospel.com>
Subject: Home Depot Utility Pump for RIMS...is it feasible?

Gentlemen,
I'm looking for y'all's opinion regarding a utility pump that I am
considering picking up to complete my RIMS project. It a 1/12 HP Cyclone
Utility pump that they sell  at  Home Depot.  The link is below and I'd
appreciate any input.  From what I can see, it looks like it would serve
appropriately as long as it would keep the wort clean in the transfer. Just
wondering if would even be worth considering.  The one I'm looking  at  is the
$79 one from Flotec Inc., SKU #932442.

http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?CNTTYPE=PROD_
META&CNTKEY=Products_1%2fPlumbing_1565%2fPumps_1396%2fSubmersible+Pumps_6823
%2fNon-Pedestal+Submersible+Pumps_1937&BV_SessionID= at  at  at  at 2100017238.104379901
9 at  at  at  at &BV_EngineID=ccdeadchgkhjmihcgelceffdfgidgjl.0&MID=34

Thanks in Advance,

Tony Rucci
Frederick, MD

Current State:
*Primary: Raspberry Fruit Ale*
**Secondary:   Pebbles Light Ale**
***Conditioning: Screaming Girl Cream Ale***



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Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 02:40:20 +0000
From: aa8jzdial at attbi.com
Subject: sink source and sanke querrie

Greetings fellow obsessives:
Antony from RSA (where i bet it is summer) talked in a recent post about 
decreasing brew time by using a large tub for cleaning equipment.
I found a real cheap source. Locate a big plastic barrel that has been used for 
industrial floor cleaning liquid or whatever else they are used for.
Lay it on the floor sideways and use your skill saw to slice off about 3/8 of 
it lengthwise. That leaves a big enough opening for a carboy on its side, a 
Sanke keg/kettle or our german shepherd. The grand kids have even taken baths 
in the garage during summer and got a kick out of it. A hand full of 2*4's and 
you are in fat city. For the drain use your junk pile / imagination. 

I have been using Sanke kegs lately for fermenters. Without a doubt this has 
been discussed. I was sick that day. I am looking for cleaining tips, draw 
backs, etc. I have tried a long broom stick (with out the broom) and some short 
ropes on the end. Spin this thing with a good sized drill and the ropes flail 
out and seem to swipe it clean. I guess. It is hard to see in there. I have 
basically reverted to rinsing after last ferment, brushing pretty good (with 
Crest) and then boiling a 1/2 gallon of water for about 20 minutes. These 
babies are heavy when full but much more forgiving when suddenly stopping on 
the concrete.
Rick Dial
AA8JZ
N Muskegon, Mi. (where we hear Lake Michigan roar)  


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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:50:54 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Bay area clubs

Brewers

My nephew, who enjoys good beer and especially my homebrew, is 
interested in starting brewing.  He lives in Berkeley, California, and 
I'd like to put him in touch with a local club.  The AHA club listing 
has been lost in a site upgrade, so I can't check that source.  Can 
anybody tell me about Bay Area clubs?

Private email is fine.

Thanks

Jeff

(no sig yet - just upgraded to Mac OS X).



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