---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Dry Hopping, Wort Chilling, Overdoing Things (Gary Benson)
  Maerzen, Stainless (Jay H)
  Re:  Sharing Homebrew (techentin)
  Vienna vs. Munich malt (Enders)
  Re:brake fluid (Jason Goldman)
  Wheat Beer (ron)
  Lager questions.. (David Lim)
  Wyeast package bursts (Drew) Lynch <atl at stardent.COM>
  Oktoberfest and Marzen (florianb)
  Beer Travels (durk)
  Homebrew Digest #415 (May 09, 1990) (MMCDANIE)
  Re: Brewpubs in Cincinnati (Scott Bobo)
  Diacetyl (Bill Crick)
  stuck fermentations (Chip Hitchcock)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Archives available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 May 90 23:50:11 PDT
From: inc at tc.fluke.COM (Gary Benson)
Subject: Dry Hopping, Wort Chilling, Overdoing Things


Only a few bottles remain of my first batch that used dry hopping, and I'm
very pleased wiht the results. I only tried dry hopping as a result of the
discussion here. It was a brown ale from extract, and using all leaf hops,
this was my hopping schedule in a 1 hour boil:

    1 oz Cascade   - 1 hour
    1/2 oz Cascade - 40 minutes
    1/2 oz Fuggles - 20 minutes
    1/2 oz Fuggles - dry hopped

It was in the primary about 1 week. Starting at 1040, it was 1030 when I
transferred it to the secondary, where it was for about 10 days. Activity
really got slow, so when SG was at 1020 for a week, I bottled. Apparently
this is not very good attenuation. I was hoping for at least 1010. This was
two cans of John Bull dark unhopped extract with no added sugars or other
fermentables.

Questions: do hops adversely affect the vitality of yeast? Specifically, are
yeast less attenutative in the presence of higher concentrations of hop
oils? Are these gravity numbers what I should expect of Edme yeast? Is 1040
a reasonable starting gravity for a two-can, 5-gallon batch boiled for an
hour? Could it have been higher and I just measured it too warm?

My second topic: wort cooling

I GOTTA get a get wort chiller! Again, after reading here about the many
advantages of swiftly lowering the wort temperature, for this batch I put
the entire kettle in the kitchen sink. I use an enamel canning kettle.

I rigged a sponge in the drain to regulate outflow, and just let the cold
water drizzle into the sink around the pot. It worked great, lowering the
temperature to 90F in about one hour! (Accurate measurements courtesy of
my Fluke DVM with temperature probe!)

Of course, now that I think of it, perhaps I got such a lot of hop flavor
because I did not strain the boiling hops out until I poured into the
primary. I'v begun rehydrating at the suggestion of many here in this
digest, to good effect. It sure was fun, though, pitching the yeast on the
same night as I brewed, and waking up the next morning to the cheerful
sounds of bubbling yeasties!!

Final topic: overdoing it

I think for novice brewers (like myself), there is a certain value in
occasionally going overboard as part of the learning process. In fact, I
understand that to learn to be an official AHA brew judge, you must go
through a course that uses exactly this technique.

Often I've heard and read of "overhopped" beer, and couldn't imagine such a
thing since I am very fond of hops smell and flavor. Well, this batch is
overhopped, but even so, it is valuable for me to know just what overhopped
tastes like. It is still drinkable, (what me worry?) but has taught me at
least that it IS possible to get too much. The secret is balance, according
to what I've read, and while this batch may be overhopped, the same amount
of hoppiness might be very desirable (or even necessary) in a more robustly
malt flavored brew or in a sweeter one.

Similarly, I never really knew what "cidery" meant when applied to beer. A
few batches ago, I purposely added 3 pounds of cane sugar to see if I could
find out. Well guess what? It tasted like cider! Not unpleasantly so if
that's what you were expecting, just not a real beer kind of flavor. I wound
up retiring that "recipe", and called the batch Cider Beer.

For my stout, I gradually increased the amount of brewer's licorice until I
finally could locate the particular note it was adding - one it turns out I
had not cared for all that much, so I will probably be dropping the licorice
in the future! The last batch had one full 6-inch stick, and the flavor was
unmistakable, although not readily identifiable as licorice.

Enough from me! I'll go back to reading and enjoying our wonderful Digest,
and thanks once again to all who make it the quality reading it is.

Happy hoppy brewing, everybody...

Oh! ps: Would the person who has the quote in their .signature reading:

    If it's good for ancient druids,
    running nekkid through the wuids,
    drinkin' strange fermented fluids,
    then it's good enough for me.

please tell us where that came from? Is it original? 14th century England?

oops - one last thing: the recent remark about using a hydrometer being just
a form of worrying too much struck a real chord with me. I agree that thef
information you gain is minimal against the chance of infection; but mihgt
that only be true after some learning period? As a relative newcomer, I
don't feel I have enough experience yet to "know what the meter is going to
show anyway". I was also interested in the digital meter someone proposed a
while back - what became of that? I have visions of plugging a hydrometer
probe into my FLUKE DVM, then hooking up a (borrowed) Data Logger and chart
recorder. "What me Worry? Hell, Jake, brewin' beers' a cinch. Just watch that
line, and when it stays level for three days, bottle it!"

- --
Gary Benson    -=[ S M I L E R ]=-   -_-_-_-inc at fluke.tc.com_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

I never loved another person the way I loved myself.  -Mae West


Return to table of contents


Date: 08 May 90 16:11:35 EDT
From: Jay H <75140.350 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Maerzen, Stainless

If I remember it correctly Maerzen & Oktoberfest used to be the same beer.
 The beer was brewed during the winter for festivals in spring (March==
 Maerzen). When the weather got warm the stuff was hauled to the ice 
 caves to be stored for the summer and consumed intermittenly, mostly
 this was because people drank the lighter beers during the summer.
 When the harvest came and the fall/winter brewing season came round
 again it was time to empty the kegs. Hence BIG PARTY!!==Oktoberfest.

This sounds reasonable but so did the concept of Bartles & James
(what they don't really exist??).

As for Stainless steel brewpots, god how cheap can you be??? I got
my 5 gallon stainless pot (brand name Metro) at a Bradlees for
$30-$35. I had to search like hell for the 6 gallon one so I'd have
headroom to do a full 5 gallon boil. I found it in a rest. supply
place in Toronto's chinatown for $60. I expect you could do similar
in most any chinatown, seems these types of stores are real popular
in those sections. In any case the last thing you need to do is shell
out $150++ for the normal restaurant grade stainless. There are 
affordable home grade stainless pots readily available for all but
the most remote of homebrewers!! If you really want to use stainless
then 
   JUST BREW IT!! (The previous slogan is a registered trademark
                   of Jay S. Hersh and the Boston Wort Processors
                   any use of this slogan without written consent of 
                   the author will cost you a homebrew, come to think 
                   of it it will cost you a homebrew even with written
                   consent, hell just send me a homebrew anyway!)

 - Jay H
NIKE who the hell are they??


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 9 May 90 08:33:31 CDT
From: techentin at Mayo.edu
Subject: Re:  Sharing Homebrew

After reading my reply to Todd Enders <enders at plains.NoDak.edu> posting 
about which-brews-can-budmillobe-drinkers-handle-and-not-choke, I 
realized that I had been a little harsh.  I decided to wait a bit, just 
to see what kind of response would appear.

To be frank, I was surprised that I didn't get seriously flamed for 
being so self rightous.  Is everybody so hostile towards the uneducated 
that they can't even post a "Hey Bob!  Lighten Up!"?

I'd like to ask if anyone has had any luck brewing "lite" style beers.  
Is it possible?  My one (bad) experience in this arena was an infected 
light lager that tasted truely nasty.  Can this stuff be brewed at home, 
or is the risk of infection just too great?  My best beers have all been 
in the O.G. range of 1.040-060, so I'm not sure I could do a good job at 
1.020-030.  Any hints?

On a lighter note (pun intended), the most popular single word 
description of American Style Mass Produced Pilsner would appear to be 
"Swill."  (for those of you who are counting).

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Techentin                              Internet: techentin at Mayo.edu
Mayo Foundation, Rochester MN, 55905 USA             (507) 284-2702
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 9 May 90 10:03:44 -0500
From: Enders <enders at plains.NoDak.edu>
Subject: Vienna vs. Munich malt


     Not to be flaming anyone, but Vienna is the lighter malt.

     1.  Vienna malt              6.5 deg. Lovibond
     2.  light Munich malt        10 deg. Lovibond
     3.  dark Munich malt         20 deg. Lovibond

     As to whether homemade Vienna malt can be trusted to convert or not, it
probably can, IF you mash cool (ca. 150 deg. F) and long (2 hrs or more).  I'd
also have the iodine handy for a starch test or two.  And finally, I'd have a
couple pounds of crushed Klages on hand, just in case :-).

Todd Enders                            arpa: enders at plains.nodak.edu
Computer Center                        uucp: ...!uunet!plains!enders     or
Minot State University                       ...!hplabs!hp-lsd!plains!enders
Minot, ND 58701                        Bitnet: enders at plains.bitnet


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 9 May 90 09:10:12 mdt
From: Jason Goldman <jdg at hplsdli.cos.hp.com>
Subject: Re:brake fluid

Regarding "Beer For The Masses":

Shortly after I began brewing, I bartered a case of a special batch of beer
to a friend.  I asked him what type of beer he liked and he replied,
"Whatever's on sale." ;-(  I made a variation on one of Papazian'z Light
American Beer recipes from TCJOH.  It was too mundane for my tastes, but he
loved it.  Later, when we bargained again, he said he'd be willing to drink
anything I made for him.  As tempting as it was to make a heavy stout, I made
a mild Brown Ale.  The idea was to give him something dark without being too
heavy.  This went over real well.  I figure that I can train him to stout in
a couple of years ;-)

I have several friends who are used to drinking swill, but most are willing
to try my beers.  Unless I make a stout or porter, which I don't think that
they'd like, I get a reasonable amount of appreciation.  The beers that have
gone over the best with this crowd are my Wiezen and a recent batch of a
honey lager.  Both of these are drinkable (the Wiezen is great) but not too
extreme for people with pedestrian taste.

Fortunately, I do have friends who appreciate real beer, so I'm not
constrained to making milder brews.

Jason

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 09 May 90 10:14:36 PDT
From: ron at hpisoa2.hp.com
Subject: Wheat Beer
Full-Name: Ron Gould

I'm planning on brewing my first batch of wheat beer and I'm looking
for recipe suggestions.  I will be using 6 lbs. of wheat malt extract
and plan to use the Wyeast Bavarian Wheat Yeast.  Other than this I'm
open to suggestions as to other malts that may/should be added and also
the types of hops that go well with wheat beers.  So, if you have some
recipe or suggestions please post them.


Thanks,
Ron Gould

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 9 May 90 11:39:09 MDT
From: David Lim <limd at boulder.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Lager questions..

I've just bought myself a little refrigerator and fitted it with a more
accurate thermostat and am ready to start my first attempts at lagers.

Various books out there (Papazian, Miller, ...) mention that if the secondary
fermentation is very long, it might be necessary to add additional yeast
when priming to get the carbonation-fermentation kick-started.  I'm assuming
a prolong cold-storage before bottling can make the first crop of yeast go
to sleep such that they'll not wake enough to carbonate the beer.

It seems that as long as you don't let the cold-aging period last too long,
the yeast will still be active enough at priming time to carbonate the 
lager.

What do you experienced lager brewers do?  How long  after  the fermentation 
subsides do you cold-age the beer before bottling?   Is adding in some 
yeast during bottling a common practice (this is something I'd rather not 
have to do)? 

Thanks!

 -Davin

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 9 May 90 10:07:23 PDT
From: Andrew (Drew) Lynch <atl at stardent.COM>
Subject: Wyeast package bursts


In HBD #414 Len Reed writes:

>  I meant to use Wyeast Bavarian yeast for my "Dos Equis," but I had
>  a stupid accident with it.  (I left the swollen package so long it
>  burst.)  ...

  I use Wyeast products and if I recall correctly,  you are supposed
to let them sit (after activating them) for one day per month past the
date stamped on the package.  This usually means that I activate the
package about Thursday to brew on Saturday or Sunday.  I usually find
that by sometime on Friday the package *looks* like it is going to
burst. 

  My questions are; How long did it take for this package to burst,
and How closely should I follow the timing instructions on the
package? 

                 Thanks Much,
                          Drew

Return to table of contents


Date: 09 May 90 11:22:16 PDT (Wed)
From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com
Subject: Oktoberfest and Marzen

In #415, Algis R Korzonas sez,

>I believe that Marzen and Oktoberfest are the same style.  I
>somehow recall that it is called Marzen because beer in this style
>is usually started in March (Marzen in German) with the intention
>of being distributed in October (for Oktoberfest).


Ahem.
Having lived in Germany (on the local economy, as it's called) I can offer
some perhaps more accurate information.  Marzen beer, according to my Munchen
native friends, is to be consumed in Spring.  Oktoberfest is to be consumed
in the fall at harvest time.  I have consumed my share (and more) of each,
and although the style may be similar or the same, the two beers are vastly
different in taste.

Oktoberfest is a variation on normal Munich lager, but brewed stronger, for
the celebration.  It is a bit sweeter than helles, somewhat darker, and a 
little more bitter.  (The Stuttgarter Volksfest beer, brewed for the same
reason, is dryer, much more bitter, and much stronger.)   

Marzen beer is sweeter than Oktoberfest and, if memory serves, is balanced 
with greater bitterness, although still low by Swabish, Bohemian, or 
Northern German standards.  In addition, it is darker, having more dark
malt content.

I have been able to duplicate true Marzen beer with a made-up recipe.  I
can send it to whomever is interested.

While I'm on the subject, I'd like to point out that the "good books", 
Charlie Papazian in his recent article on German beer, and seemingly
everyone else in North America is ignoring a whole subculture of beer
from Germany.  This is the Swabish beer.  I have never seen a recipe for
Swabish Pils or Swabish lager in any book, nor have I heard anyone mention
it in the Brewpub newsletters, and so on.  My recent efforts in brewing
lagers have been oriented at brewing Swabish beers, with the intention of
expanding the homebrew knowledge on this vast, apparently uncharted area.
But I digress...

Florian, the determined.            

Return to table of contents


Date: 9 May 90 14:50:13 EDT (Wed)
From: dialogic!durk at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Beer Travels

In digest #414, Chris Yerga writes:

> ... I'm looking for pointers to beer hot spots in Europe.
>The only thing we are sure of in advance is that we will hit 
>Great Britain and Belgium. Beyond this we will be improvising,
>and any info from fellow HBML'ers may steer us towards a particular
>1: Country, 2: Region, 3: Town, 4: Brewery/Beer Garden, etc.

When in England, each region/county/city generally has its own style
of Bitter.  Try them all! 8-) I lived over there for nine years and
never tired for the variety.  When you go into a pub, if the publican
'draws' the pint by pulling a long handle three or fours times, then
you know you are getting a real ale.  But beware.  Some tricky pubs
have the long handles but still pump the beer via CO2.

I also wholeheartedly urge you to visit Austria if for no other
reason than to see it.  Undoubtedly, one of Europe's most beautiful
cities is Salzburg (you know, The Sound of Music place).  They also
have a local brewery.  It is in an old monastary (15th century if
I remember right) with an enclosed courtyard where you can sip from 
a clay liter or half-liter mug under the trees.  (I whiled away
many a summer hour under those trees.  It is called the Augustiner 
Braustubl (pronounced Owgoosteener broystewbel) -- ask anyone 
there, they will direct you to it.  You might also want to buy a
stadtplan (city map).

The braustubl has several indoor halls for loud raucous behavior and
general merriment. 8-) And if you are hungry, there are a good dozen
food kiosks in the hallways.  I used to buy the cut and salted radishes.
They goes excellently with the beer!!  Speaking of the beer, when you go
in, there are shelves and shelves of dirty mugs all along the walls.
Go on up and pick yourself a good one.  You then have to take it over
to what looks like a horse trough and clean it out yourself using your
hand or whatever.  Next, get in line for the cashier.  She will take
your money and give you a sales slip.  Take the slip over to the 
big surly guy in the white smock.  He'll take it and your mug and draw
the brew from a huge wooden cask brought up from the cellar.  Enjoy!
This place has atmosphere and the beer is OK too.

I hope my reminiscent ramblings hasn't bored anyone.  I think I
just made myself homesick -- or is that braustublsick? 8-)

Cheers,
	Durk

Dave Durkin         |  "You can tune a piano      |  Dialogic Corp.
durk at dialogic.com   |   but you can't tuna fish"  |  Parsippany, NJ 07054
durk at dialogic.uucp  |       -- Groucho Marx       |  (201) 334-1268 x105

Return to table of contents


Date: 9 May 1990 14:58:17 EDT
From: MMCDANIE at UMAB.UMD.EDU
Subject:  Homebrew Digest #415 (May 09, 1990)


test reply

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 9 May 90 10:41:24 PDT
From: Scott Bobo <scott at hprmokg>
Subject: Re: Brewpubs in Cincinnati
Full-Name: Scott Bobo

Chris - I used to live in Cincinnati and visit my family there once or
twice a year.  Unfortunately, there aren't as many brewpubs in Cincinnati
as it's strongl Germanic heritage might promise.  Most of the local 
breweries have consolidated (Hudepohl/Shoenling/Burger) or have been bought
up by larger brewers (Wiedemann).  Oldenburg is the only "pub" I'm aware
of.  It's not just a brewpub, though.  It's more like a combination of a 
beer museum, a restaurant, a brewpub, and a enormous beer hall.  The brew's
pretty good, but it's only half the show.  I don't know ho many gazillions 
of cans they have on display, but they have paraphernalia (sp?) going back
to the 1870's.  It's in Ft Mitchell, Ky, on I-75 at the Buttermilk Pike 
exit.  Very handy for those flying in and out, 'cause it's on the way to
the airport.  Allow yourself an hour or two to look around, if you go.  I'm
not a real antique or kitsch buff, but I found this interesting.

There's a local brew called Christian Moerlien that's worth trying.  

Chili - don't get me started.  I miss an all night chili parlor more than
anything.  There's really nothing better for the late night snackies than
a four-way bear and a couple of cheese coneys.  Ahhh, memories.  There's 
two big chains in Cincinnati - Skyline (the original Cincy chili) and Gold
Star (also good).  Go to both and compare.         

Hangouts - the City View Inn on Oregon St. in Mt. Adams has a small back
deck (two tables from K-mart) that offers a great view of the eastern side
of downtown and sunsets.  Arnold's has a lot of atmosphere, too.

Scott Bobo
scott at hprmokg.HP.COM
(916) 785-4728

Return to table of contents


Date: 	Wed, 9 May 1990 16:45:22 -0400
From: hplabs!gatech!mailrus!uunet!bnr-vpa!bnr-rsc!crick (Bill Crick)
Subject: Diacetyl



Here is how I get a good amount of butterscotch flavor in ales:

Boil all of your water, and try not to get too much oxygen in it
when handling it. This will cause the yeast to be oxygen starved
during its reproduction phase. the lag is longer, but I believe
this causes it to produce a lot more Diacetyl.

After 3-5 days in primary, add gelatin finings to strip out the 
yeast in suspension, and rack aftr a few days. Add finings again 
after a few more days. I use about 1/3 the recommended dose each time, and
the last 1/3 when I bottle. Stripping out the yeast in suspension will
stop it from reducing the diacetyl levelslater in the fermentation.
 
Note:It will take longer to reach final gravity, because the yeast has
     taken a beating. Think of it as growing Bonsai Yeast ;-)

Tis will give yo an ale similar to Samuel (? or john?) Smiths which
is fermented in "yorksire stones" which are large slate boxes. Due to
the temperature, and shape of the boxes, they have trouble getting
the yeast to stay in suspension, causing a high diacetyl, or butterscotch
flavor.

A lot of people try for minimum diacetyl, because it can be a sign of
contamination, but I've found an awful lot of people who like the 
"butterscotch" or "nutty" flavor it gives. I bet a lot of traditionally
inn brewwed ales had wuite a lot of diacetyl in them back in previous 
centuries. Hence we are probably genetically screened to enjoy this;-)

By the way, I used a aluminum pot for several years, and noticed no
difference when I switched to a enamelled steel pot!
Brewius Ergo Sum 
Bill Crick







Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 8 May 90 06:48:38 EDT
From: ileaf!io!peoria!cjh at EDDIE.MIT.EDU (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: stuck fermentations

   I recently had serious fermentation start up in some bottles and am
wondering whether there was any way I could have persuaded it to happen
in the carboy.
   The recipe was from Papazian's Sparrowhawk Porter with available
ingredients---1 John Bull dark, 1 M&F Amber, 1# dry amber, 1# chocolate malt,
2.5 oz hops (boil+finish), 5 gallons water. There was no action for three
days after pitching; this may have been poor yeast (I'm just now learning
about rehydration) or may have been the irregular room heating---temperature
in the carboy had fallen from 76F to 63F. I pitched another packet of yeast
and brought in a space heater. In a day the temp was in the low 70's; I got
vigorous fermentation for 2 days, then nothing. SG had dropped from 67 to 32;
I was expecting (from the recipe) somewhat lower so I stirred up the yeast
sediment (per suggestion of local homebrew shop). 10 days later there had
been no action (bubbles, dropping SG) whatsoever, so I bottled with the
canonical 3/4 cup of corn sugar.
   The beer was harsh but drinkable 2 weeks after bottling and mellowed a bit
as it aged. I had a few bottles in the office for ~6 weeks, then noticed that
all the caps had everted (my capper is the Italian model that makes a dimple
in caps on longneck bottles). It took about 5 minutes of careful bleeding in
a sink before I could take the cap off without a geyser. I chilled and
opened a second bottle; after it had subsided and warmed up I got an SG of
1.023.
   I'm not too worried about the bottles I have left in the cellar, but but
I'd really prefer to eat up all the fermentable sugars in the carboy (and be
able to bring samples in for other homebrewers without worrying about
explosions). Is there any way to test for remaining sugar, or to persuade the
yeast to finish its job?
 - When I pitched the yeast I aerated the wort by sloshing the carboy around
until there was a vortex in the middle, then reversing direction until the
vortex reversed---is a paint stirrer or an aquarium bubbler necessary for the
heavier batches?
 - Is it better to keep the fermenting temperature in the high 60's in hope
the yeast will grow slower but sturdier?
 - Is it worthwhile to take off some (possibly unfinished) brew,
boil to sterilize, and see whether it will activate new yeast (could spend a
lot of yeast that way...)?
 - The office was probably 65-75F most of the time---yes, that's not the best
keeping (or drinking) temperature, but I wouldn't expect it to jump-start
yeast that had shut down at that temperature.
 - I don't \think/ a wild strain could have gotten in and eaten some of the
sugars the packaged yeast gave up on; everything I worked with was thoroughly
sanitized (1/4-1/2 cup bleach in 6 gallons water)---the bottles were cleaned
\twice/ because I discovered while they were drying that my filler had vanished
(it took a day to get a replacement, and I wasn't sure I could use bottles
that had been sterilized the day before).

Any ideas? Any suggestions?

Return to table of contents



End of HOMEBREW Digest #416, 05/10/90
*************************************
-------

---