---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Big Rigs and winning... (Bev Blackwood II)
  Re: $4000 set ups? ("greg man")
  RE: Beer... Traveling ("Asher Reed")
  Re:  herms questions (Bill Tobler)
  Big Rigs Keep On Rollin (Pat Babcock)
  re. Plambic Digest ("John Misrahi")
  Ethics of Competitions (Nathan Kanous)
  maple syrup and toasting/roasting oats (Jake Isaacs)
  RE: Good BrewPubs in Norcross, GA ("Sven Pfitt")
  Killing time in Northwest Germany ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Re: beer travel question (Jeff Renner)
  Chillin Conicals ("Vernon, Mark")
  Computerized Washing Mashine All Grain System (Bret Kuhnhenn)
  Re: Lambic digest (Brian Lundeen)
  RE: filthy, rotten Sabco brewers (Brian Lundeen)
  WZZ Homebrew Competition ("John C. Tull")
  Harrisburg beer ("Bill Lucas")
  RE: RIMS water heater element grounding ("Mike Sharp")
  Re: Competition ethics/ questions ("Steve Alexander")
  War Of The Worts 8 (John Varady)
  Re: Competition ethics (Bill Tobler)
  Re: two things ("Steve Alexander")


*
* Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! 
* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
*
* The HBD Logo Store is now open!
* http://www.cafeshops.com/hbdstore
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:48:20 -0600
From: Bev Blackwood II <bdb2 at bdb2.com>
Subject: Big Rigs and winning...

> Speaking of unenforceble rules, I see a bigger problem with
> professional brewers who allegedly brew at home, or the guys
> who have the $4,000+ Sabco systems with RIMS controllers and
> programmable mash temps that they use.  Those guys win every
> time out.  You can always find their names on every winner's
> list in every local competition, and usually at least 3 or 4
> times, sometimes 6 or 7 times.

Having a rig doesn't automatically translate to a winning recipe.  You 
also have to look at the fact that these same people also have all the 
other "cool" toys... Ph meters, stir plates, etc.  Speaking as the 
owner of a "rig" myself (not a 4k Sabco, but nice) I can say that my 
skill as a brewer is what decides whether my beers ever win anything.  
Taking that a step further, I know a couple who brews in Florida who 
undoubtedly aren't stovetop brewers, and while they win consistently, 
many people have beaten them, some with extract beers!

It's all in the judging quality in my book.

 -BDB2

Bev D. Blackwood II
Brewsletter Editor
The Foam Rangers
http://www.foamrangers.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 00:43:53 -0500
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: $4000 set ups?

(snip)
>Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:20:13 -0500
>From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
>Subject: Re: Competition ethics

>Speaking of unenforceable rules, I see a bigger problem with
>professional brewers who allegedly brew at home, or the guys
>who have the $4,000+ Sabco systems with RIMS controllers and
>programmable mash temps that they use.  Those guys win every
>time out.  >I think its unethical to brew a beer at a BOP or the same
>thing - on a $4,000 system that does everything for you and
>make coffee, too, then enter that beer in a homebrew competition,
>and claim you made it at home.

  I totally disagree bill. I brew on a basic set up of 10g mash pot with  
False bottom on a gas burner, ferment in glass. All that ghetto stuff an I 
still do very well in competitions, agents said brewers.
I like the idea of competing agent these brewers with a $4000 set up.

The only reason I think your statement is a little off is this. At what 
point do you draw the line? If you have a conical fermenter does that mean 
your too advanced for a homebrew competition? What about these guys with 
RIMS? HERMS? An so on, do you see my point? How can you arbitrarily 
distinguish between what is home brew an what is not?
  As for the BOP I don't know how that plays into ethics? I know for a fact 
many competitions don't allow them But like you said how is it really 
enforced? THough I would rather compete agents a BOP than a professional 
brewer. A brewer with a working lab an major industry equipment would have 
an un fair advantage.
  But even then lets not lose site of why we enter competitions in the first 
place!! I know I don't do it for the prizes(although they do help) I 
personally do it to support most homebrew clubs. And for me there is nothing 
better than to get feed back about the beer I make, So I can improve the 
next batch!!!!!

Am I alone on this folks??????....................gregman


Ps: Let those guys with there $4000 set up enter a competition, It will be 
all the more sweet a victory when I beat them hands down!  ;^)




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 07:09:39 +0000
From: "Asher Reed" <clvwpn5 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Beer... Traveling 

you might want to have her pick up some yuengling while in PA, they claim to 
be the oldest brewery in america.  it is pretty good stuff, unfortunately 
their distribution does not reach us folks in the west... or the folks in 
the midwest.

>Hello all,  My wife is traveling to Harrisburg, PA and Indianapolis, IN.
>Being the wonderful wife she is, she has offered to bring me back some beer
>from these locations. So... can anyone offer suggestions on must try beers
>available there that I can't get in Texas?
>Thanks,
>     Charlie Walker
>     Old Okra Brewery
>     Lancaster, Texas
>     charlybill at prodigy.net






Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 05:29:51 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re:  herms questions

Steven S had some questions about building a HERMS in the new house.  I have
a 10 gallon all electric HERMS in the back room of he garage.

 - What size vessel tends to perform best?

For the Mash Tun, you will need at least a 40 quart (10 gallon) pot/cooler.
You can get about 23# grain in there, good for most brews.

 - Converted keg with a large coil and stirrer or a smaller vessel
  (5 gallon cornie) with tighter smaller coil?

I suggest a converted keg as the HLT.  5 gallons is just not big enough.  My
coil in the HLT is about 25 feet of 1/2" copper tubing, which is plenty long
enough.  

 - Does a stirrer mechanism offer measurable advantages?

I don't think the mash tun needs a stirrer, but you will need something for
the HLT.  I tried a few different things, including a submersible bilge pump
from Rule.  The specs said the pump was good to 190 degrees F.  It warped so
bad after the 3ed session, I couldn't use it anymore.  I ended up buying a
hi-temp mag drive pump and just circulating the HLT during heat-up and mash
steps.  

 - Should the vessel double as a heating vessel for sparge water?

You need good temperature control in the HLT.  I would put a electric
element in the HLT and get a PID controller to control the temperature.  The
HLT is the heart of your system.  Maybe Bill Freeman will chime in here.  He
uses a maxi chiller as the heat exchanger. I really like that system.  He
circulates HLT water on the outer coil of the counter flow chiller, and the
mash liquid on the inner coil.

 - What are some average degrees per minute (MAX) I should expect?

That depends on the temperature differential of the mash liquid and the HTL
water.  At first, when the differential is high, you should get 4 or 5
degrees/min.  As you approach the HLT temp, it slows down to 1-3 deg/min.  I
try to keep the HLT temp 10 degrees higher than the mash setpoint

 - Have you done electric vs gas HERMS (both) and what are your results?

No, I just went all electric to start with.

 - Do you use a specific controller system for the HERMS?

All my controllers are from Omega.  That's what was available on e-bay when
I bought them.  Any of the PID controllers will work just fine.  The model
numbers are CN9111A and CN9121A

I've got plenty of pictures of my system if you ever need some.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 08:30:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Big Rigs Keep On Rollin

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Size doesn't matter. You've been told and told. Why won't you
believe?! ;^)

Anyhoo, I have sampled many nasty beers brewed on professional
equipment as well as the sublime nectar of the gods brewed with
equipment they would have been proud to have in the backwwods of
a dry county in Kentucky back during the depression. Neither the
price of the system nor the gilded glitz of a system will
improve your beer. Outside of some better controls on
temperature and time, it still comes down to the skill of the
brewer. (Besides, I have much more than $4K tied up in my
brewing gear, and it hasn't done more than frustrate me that I
haven't enough time to use it...)

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:32:28 -0500
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: re. Plambic Digest

Gee,
I had been informed the Lambic digest was no more, and in any case, it
doesn't seem to be particularly active does it? I'm not trying to dump on it
in any way. But not a single person wrote to say, "hey! it's not dead yet!".
Or something similar.

re. the archives, I am removing the 'members only' archive feature in 5
minutes. It will be open to anyone who wishes to read it.

Thanks for the suggestion Pat.

John


 [892, 63] Apparent Rennerian (km)

"You're all wanking sissies if you even think about using a grain mill,
teeth, or ball-peen hammer.  A real brewer uses 17 vestal virgins
stomping on the grain in a large wooden vat.  And yeast is for losers.
True brewers just dip one end of their dog into the wort to get things
going." -- Drew Avis

Seen on a tee shirt - "The internet is full. Go away!"





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 09:05:15 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Ethics of Competitions

Bill Wible joins the discussion of the ethics of brewing for 
competitions.  I've got a couple things I'd like to say.
1.      If you go to a professional brewery and draw off wort, only to add 
yeast and ferment / package it at home, that ain't homebrew....in my opinion.
2.      If you start with a wort concentrate and have to add 
water.......that's closer to brewing and increases the variability.
3.      Any situation where you put the ingredients all together, whether 
from your recipe or someone else's, or a kit or whatever, you put it 
together and did all the "stuff"...that's homebrewing and that's fine.
4.      Not everybody that does well in competition has a $4000 brewery 
sculpture.....I brew out of stuff I cobbled together and I think I make a 
pretty good beer.  I've always wondered how much beer some of these folks 
that place in multiple styles in a single competition have in their 
basement and how much they are unwilling to enter because it won't win?  I 
know I've placed up to 3 times in one competition and I brew on a cobbled 
system and have beer in the basement I wouldn't send to competition 'cause 
it won't place and I can get reasonable feedback from my local club.

I think the expensive systems may make the process seem easier but that 
doesn't always equate to better beer.  Every time I've tried to "upgrade" 
my brewing system to include some fancy "innovation" I've read about here 
on the HBD, I always go back to my original set-up.

The moral to that is that it probaly has more to do with how well someone 
understands the equipment / process they use than how much they paid for 
the equipment.

Those are my thoughts for today.
nathan in madison, wi



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:11:05 -0500
From: Jake Isaacs <rjisaa0 at uky.edu>
Subject: maple syrup and toasting/roasting oats

I'm planning to use 2 lbs of rolled oats in a 5.5 gal batch of maple 
porter this weekend.  I was thinking about toasting a portion, roasting 
a portion, and leaving some as-is to get a fuller range of "oatiness" in 
the final brew.  Just wondering what the advice of the collective is on 
methods of toasting/roasting and what might be some upper limits for 
amounts used and other caveats.  I'll probably toss in some rice hulls 
to help out the sparge. Anyone have extract potential and Lovibond 
estimates for toasted/roasted oats?

As for the maple syrup, I was planning to add a pound in the secondary 
fermenter to preserve as much flavor/aroma as possible.  Is this a good 
amount?  I can get grade B in bulk from the local co-op and grade A dark 
amber cheap at Sam's Club.  Which is preferable?  What should I do to 
make sure it gets mixed in well enough?  Just rack on top of it?  
Stir/shake (I usually CO2 purge my carboys)?  Thanks for any and all 
advice.


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 10:10:15 -0500
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Good BrewPubs in Norcross, GA

Tray Bourgoyne is heading for Norcross:

>I'm headed to Norcross, GA (Very close to Atlanta) and will be looking >for 
>good brew pubs. I also need a good source to buy good brew by the >bottle. 
>Any one point me in the right direction?
>Thanks,
>Tray

The Old Taco Macs which is now Summets Wayside Tavern on Roswell Rd off the 
north loop of 285 is not a brewpub, but a nice Taphouse. Forget Hops in the 
mall. Ok for food, but the beer is bland.

>From Norcross, head into Atlanta and take the 285 bypass(right lane, right 
lane). Go about 5 or so exits on 285 and take Roswell exit (Big white 
lighted Skyscraper noticable on the right before the exit) and go north (up 
hill) get in the left lane asap, because Summets is only 50-100 yards up on 
your left after the exit. Food is pretty good, lots of TVs around (it is a 
sports bar) beer selection is really nice. Nice enough that I have yet to 
drink a bottled beer, even though the bottle selection is nice too. They 
sometimes have valet parking.

JAX has a pretty deicent selection of imported beer (although GA limits %ABV 
to 6%, sigh). JAX is a licquor/beer/wine store that is convieniently located 
on Roswell just up past Summets Wayside Tavern, but on the right instead of 
the left.

I usually hit JAX before going to Summets when I'm in Norcross on business 
(once a year if I'm lucky).

Good luck.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck






Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 10:12:06 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude02 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Killing time in Northwest Germany

Hey Collective!

I have a question, and based on responses to travel questions I've had in 
the past, I suspect that some folks will know exactly what to tell me.

Here's my issue:  I'm arriving in Frankfurt on a Friday, heading straight 
up to Schuettorf for a meeting with a new distributor, and then I'll be 
free for Saturday and Sunday, heading home on Monday morning out of the 
Frankfurt airport.  My intention is to stay in or near Schuettorf on 
Friday. This is near Osnabruck, Zwolle, Bremen, Hannover.  Being as this is 
a beer guy that I'll be meeting (and if the German homebrew business owner 
is anything like the American homebrew business owner, this will be a 
blast!), Tom might invite us to hang around on Saturday to do some sampling 
of his own brew, see the sights, or whatever-- so I might end up with only 
Sunday free.

So, knowing that I want to be gradually going south back to Frankfurt (I 
intend to spend Sunday night close to the airport), where should I spend 
the extra time? My thoughts are Dusseldorf, Essen, or Cologne, but the 
enormity of the Dusseldorf metro area worries me regarding traffic and 
spending 2 hours to find a parking place just so I can spend 1 hour at a 
neat spot.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 10:13:50 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: beer travel question

Charlie Walker <charlybill at prodigy.net> writes from Lancaster, Texas

>My wife is traveling to Harrisburg, PA and Indianapolis, IN.
>Being the wonderful wife she is, she has offered to bring me back some beer
>from these locations. So... can anyone offer suggestions on must try beers
>available there that I can't get in Texas?

The legendary Bell's  Beers of Kalamazoo Brewing Co 
http://www.bellsbeer.com/ are distributed in Indiana.   All of their 
beers are very good to great.  Check out the web site and prepare a 
shopping list.

Larry Bell is best known for his amazing array of stouts.  In 
November he produced ten!  Many of these one-offs are still 
available, but I think his regular production Expedition Stout, in 
the style of a Russian Imperial Stout, is probably the one to get. 
Michael Jackson rates it as one of the top beers of the world as I 
recall.  Kalamazoo Stout is his standard stout and is also very fine.

The Two Hearted Ale, a great American IPA, is another one I'd 
recommend.  Full of sticky, resinous hop (Columbus?) character.

Larry Bell started the brewery twenty years ago in a converted 
downtown Kalamazoo plumbing warehouse with a 15 gallon stockpot.  He 
gradually expanded, and just recently announced that they have a new 
place outside of town that will allow them to expand to be a major 
regional brewery (maybe 100,00 barrels? - can't remember).

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:23:14 -0600 
From: "Vernon, Mark" <mark at PleasantStreet.com>
Subject: Chillin Conicals

Lately people have been bragging about their new conical fermenters they
created using a TMS cone and other parts. Christian Raush has an excellent
page showing his design http://rauschbiercompany.com/home.html - I really
like the racking port diagram, been scratching my head on how this was done.
My question is how are you cooling these beasts? I don't have the room/area
to install a walk-in cooler so that's not the answer...if I was to build a
12gal conical based on a TMS cone how could I get it temperature controlled?

Mark Vernon
Brewing in frikin' freezing Des Moines IA

"The best thing about the future is that it comes one day at a time." --
Abraham Lincoln 


Return to table of contents


Date: 06 Feb 2003 11:13:42 -0500
From: Bret Kuhnhenn <bret at brewingworld.com>
Subject: Computerized Washing Mashine All Grain System

Check out these german home brewers sites.
Anyone ever try this in the states?

http://www.ping.de/sites/lodders/bier.htm 
http://www.m-fey.de/brauen/index.htm

- -- 
Bret Kuhnhenn




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:49:28 -0600 
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Lambic digest


> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:16:41 -0500 (EST)
> From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
> Subject: pLambic Digest 
> 
> Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
> 
> After a test post to the lambic digest lambic at hbd.org, I find 
> that there are still participants lurking out there. If the 
> list wishes to move itself to the new digs recently offered 
> by John Misrahi 
> (https://secure.neap.net/mailman/listinfo/plambic), I have no 
> qualms! 

My friend Brian is being kind enough (and as you all well know, this is a
rare event) to let me use his account to send you a message of dire warning,
Pat.

You can call me Deep Groat, if you like. My identity must remain a closely
guarded secret for reasons that will soon be obvious.

I am a former member of The MoB. Don't let their full name, The Members of
Barleyment, lead you into thinking these are a bunch of civilized, Robert's
Rules of Order types. They are ruthless, and I have it on good authority
that the Lambic Digest is just the start of a nefarious scheme to control
all of America's homebrewing discussion resources. Can the HBD be far
behind?

If a man with a ponytail and a case of zwickel beer shows up at your door
wanting to "talk", Pat, be afraid. Be very afraid.

Deep Groat


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:13:42 -0600 
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: filthy, rotten Sabco brewers

Bill Wible writes:

> Brian, I don't think you ever need to worry about one of 
> those kit beers winning anything in a competition.

I can't say I'm worried at all, Bill, because I did it several years ago
before I got into all-grain brewing. Granted the BrewHouse kits were not
made, how shall we say, "according to directions". However, at the AWC
National Competition, my Dessert Stout (basically the kit made without
adding water) won its class, my Munich Dark Lager (OK, I used a liquid lager
yeast) was named best entry, and I took away the Grand Champion Brewer
prize. Chalk it up to questionable judging all you want, the kits came out
winners.
 
> Speaking of unenforceble rules, I see a bigger problem with 
> professional brewers who allegedly brew at home, or the guys 
> who have the $4,000+ Sabco systems with RIMS controllers and 
> programmable mash temps that they use.  Those guys win every 
> time out.  You can always find their names on every winner's 
> list in every local competition, and usually at least 3 or 4 
> times, sometimes 6 or 7 times.
 
I can only assume that you enjoy starting a kerfuffle when you post stuff
like this. As Chuck Heston might say, "Equipment doesn't brew beer, people
brew beer". Did the Sabco system create the recipe? Did the Sabco system
decide on the mash schedule? Did the Sabco system decide how much sparge
water to use? Did the Sabco system sanitize all the necessary fermentation
equipment? Did the Sabco system select the yeast and provide for temperature
controlled fermentation? 

There is no such thing as a hands-off brew. In the hands of a skilled
brewer, such systems can offer an added level of control for the mash, but
they are not necessary to brew great beer, and no guarantee that the beer
will be great. Maybe the guys that keep winning are just really skilled
brewers. 

As for pro brewers being eligible to enter their homemade products, why not?
The commercial environment is very different from the amateur one. Would you
keep a banker out of a Monopoly competition? Heck, homebrewing might be the
only opportunity for these guys to express their creative side. Let them
have some fun, and compare their efforts with amateurs.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:45:49 -0800
From: "John C. Tull" <jctull at unr.edu>
Subject: WZZ Homebrew Competition

This is the last reminder (I promise) for the WZZ Homebrew Competition 
in Reno, Nevada. Entries should be received between 8 February and 22 
February.

This is both an AHA sanctioned and BJCP certified event. Entries can be 
completed online following the link below; bottle labels will be 
generated for your convenience. Last year's event had 97 entries, so we 
expect this to be a 100+ entry competition this year. The winner will 
have the opportunity to brew their winning beer at the Great Basin 
Brewing Company. You can view the details online (follow the 
"Competition" link):

http://jctull.biology.unr.edu/wzz/registration.html

An Acrobat file with the details can be had here (316kb):
http://jctull.biology.unr.edu/wzz/WZZ%20Competition.pdf

REMINDER
We will be using the Barlewine Festival at the Toronado in San 
Francisco, the excellent annual commercial event headed by Russ 
Wigglesworth, as an additional drop-off for entries. Tom Baldwin will 
be present to collect entries and bring them to Reno. This will 
eliminate the hassle of shipping for anyone that will be attending that 
event. Just ask for Tom from Reno. Otherwise, ship them to arrive 
between 8-22 Feb 2003 to the Reno Homebrewer.

The WZZHC will be held on Sunday 2 March 2003 at the Silver Peak 
Restaurant and Brewery. Lunch will be provided for volunteers. There 
will also be a BJCP exam administered by Dave Sapsis on Saturday 1 
March 2003. So plan on taking the test, then judging the next day if 
you are so inclined. Please let me know in advance if you plan to take 
the exam. We will need a head count for that as well.

Cheers,
John C. Tull
WZZ

P.S. Apologies for cross-posts.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 14:52:36 -0500
From: "Bill Lucas" <Homebrew42 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Harrisburg beer

Hi Charlie,

I can't help at all on the beer from Indianapolis; further I have no idea
what you can get in Texas so take this for what it is worth, but this is my
take on beers in and around Harrisburg.

In Harrisburg there is at least one brew pub and they are Appalachian
Brewing Company. Their beers are not bad, but I much prefer the food. Since
you won't be in attendance for a sampler of the beers I would just recommend
some of the 6 packs to go. I haven't tried in a while, but we used to be
able to mix and match a 6 pack (may take a little coaxing). That would not
be too bad, you could try the beers without over-committing... Their beers
are good, clean, free of infection and a quality product. Unfortunately at
least to my palate they are tame. Aiming for a broader market their beers
tend to be middle of the road and sometimes downright understated. I haven't
been there since last summer but IIRC they had/have a bourbon stout that is
actually quite tasty, I don't think that one will come in a 6 pack. The
other brewpub I know of in the area is Jacks Mountain Brewery 904 US Highway
522 South Lewistown PA 17044 (Can't comment on the beer though as I haven't
been there yet)

The other obvious child here is Victory. I don't know which of their
products make it to Texas but you can pick up a six of either the Storm King
Imperial Stout, or Olde Horizontal. The Hop Devil is really good also but I
would expect you to be able to get that one as it is their widest
distribution. Other Victory beers depending on your taste... All malt lager
(A Dortmund export style beer that is quite tasty), Prima Pils (My favorite
Pils), Golden Monkey (also a personal favorite Belgian style trippel).  Any
Victory beer is worth trying though...

There's always Yuengling, nothing special but a local staple and a part of
the regional history (skip it if you are running short on space). The lager
and the porter are easily drinkable (or at least I have been conditioned to
think so over the last 12 years). Not a huge fan of the Lord Chesterfield
though.

Flying Fish Brewery I've liked the beers from them but not really enough to
stick out very distinctly.

Dogfish Head Interesting beers check out their website for offerings if you
are interested http://www.dogfish.com I really like the 90 minute IPA and
the King Midas' Touch is an interesting beer. I would think it is worth it
to drink one of them, I really liked it but I was also in the minority
around here when we had it at our house warming party. It is a historical
brew and I would check it out first. World Wide Stout, Raison d' etre,
Indian Brown, and the Chicory Stout are some of the ones I like available in
6 packs.

Nodding head brewery, Independence Brewery, Valley Forge Brewing Company and
Manayunk Brewery: These are from Philly and the surrounding area and may or
may not be available in Harrisburg (I know at least Independence bottles,
and I _think_ VFBC does, not sure about Nodding Head or Manayunk, I wouldn't
think much if they did any)

Also from Philly is Yards Brewing Company good sweet oyster stout called
Love stout.  Other offerings are also very good.

Other beers from the region that should be available in Harrisburg:

*Frederick Brewing Company: Snow Goose, Oatmeal Stout, IPA and Amber
*Crooked River Robust Porter
*Blue Ridge Snowball's Chance
*Otter Creek Stovepipe Porter
*Penn Brewery St. Nikolaus Bock (If you can still find it), Pilsner,
Oktoberfest and other German style lagers
*Stoudts I would pick up either their dubble or trippel and leave the 6
packs (they are good, but not a favorite)
*Erie Brewing Company Railbender
*Troegs IMO better from the keg then the bottle... They are in Harrisburg
too.
*Weyerbacher Can't comment on this one, their beers seem to be going
downhill with the new production facilities (victim of scale??). Their hops
infusion used to be quite tasty and lived up to its name... However I had it
recently after someone I recommended it to blasted it out of the water and I
have to agree with their opinion.  Not at all what I remember and I wouldn't
recommend them at the moment. Their winter offering is good and should still
be available. I think it was a silver medal winner somewhere. I also like
the Merry Monks but apparently it suffers from DMS, which I unfortunately
can't detect if it is beating me over the head with a mash rake.

There are other local beers like Straub and such but there are much
better beers to be had.

Regards,
Bill

State College, PA



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:10:16 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: RIMS water heater element grounding

Lou King says, re:   RIMS water heater element grounding


"Note that my heater doesn't have a ground screw, nor is the chamber in
contact with house ground."

I'd recommend grounding *both* the chamber and the element flange.  In some
cases, this is required by code, but in all cases it's a good idea.  For
example, no matter whether the heating element is separately grounded or
not, in a spa, the chamber is required to be metal, and separately bonded
(it's called a current collector, which is a good description of it's
function in an electrical fault).  Ground them both, is my advice. You
certainly don't want to be R1 to ground, as we say.

Regards,
Mike Sharp


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:35:11 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Competition ethics/ questions

Bill Wible says ...

>Brian, I don't think you ever need to worry about one of those
>kit beers winning anything in a competition.

and

>I see a bigger problem with
>professional brewers who allegedly brew at home, or the guys
>who have the $4,000+ Sabco systems with RIMS controllers and
>programmable mash temps that they use.  Those guys win every
>time out.
 ...
>I envy them
 ....
>To me, this is no different than going to brew on premise and
>entering that beer,

====

Bill, I REALLY don't know what you've been drinking - but your experience
seems completely out of whack with mine.

1/ Despite your previous claims to the contrary  modern high quality dry
yeasts do not produce off flavors or any other beer problem.  I've sampled
enough Lallemands and recently some DCL yeast beers and there is absolutely
nothing wrong with the flavors.  They are top notch.

2/ Tho' I agree that kits aren't likely to win any competitions, this has
more to do with the beer design and the lack of fresh hops than anything
else.  I've had some great beers made from extract.   This isn't the norm,
yet very good beers can be made from extract.  Completely comparable to
all-grain beers.

3/ You are deluding yourself when you envy the hardware heavy brewers or the
BOP brewers.

I've tasted consistently defect-free but unexciting beers from BOPS.   Never
superior  to the stuff that comes of the backyard propane breweries of good
local HBers.

I don't know how you know what hardware was used by folks in the 'Winner's
Circle' but I'd wager that if there is any tendency for the winners to use
expensive hardware that it is because the same folks that pay for these
expensive toys are also highly interested in making the best beer possible
and take that goal seriously.  Automatic hardware may  help a little but the
thought that a $4k mash system makes significantly better tasting wort than
a carefully used Gott cooler mash tun is ridiculous

One of the best lager HBer I've ever known used the same basic hardware as
the rest of us, but had better control of the fermentation and lagering and
krausening.   Nothing automatic - he just spent more time at it and made
correspondingly better beer.

- --

>I think its unethical to brew a beer at a BOP or the same
>thing - on a $4,000 system that does everything for you and
>make coffee, too, then enter that beer in a homebrew competition,
>and claim you made it at home.

I think it's stupid and self-defeating to exclude *any* beer from
competition and that includes commercial beers.

{{
Let me digress and note a little history .  Long ago, before autos,
bicycles were the rage and racing of bicycles quickly became a major sport
in Europe.  These races had a huge impact on bicycle design and advances in
materials.    Then in the early 1900s a French commission set down a list of
rules that prevented changes to a bicycle geometry within certain bounds,
and also prevented the use of non-structural devices on a bicycle.
Basically they made it a competition between the human physiques and not a
competition to improve the bicycle.

Modern road and racing bicycles are still based on this antiquated design
restriction.   It is well known that recumbent designs and certain
non-structural aerodynamic features will result in a faster bike, but 'we'
decided to freeze the design and live with an inferior product.
}}

Same with beer competitions - we must reward the features we want to improve
and not restrict HBing to a competition on antiquated hardware.  I want beer
competitions to be about the best beer flavor and quality and NOT about the
hardware used to make the beer or even just the brewer's skill.   The
competition should reward success of the product, and allow any improvements
in ingredients, recipe or methods that the human mind can devise.  Look,
getting a gold medal or blue ribbon is a microscopic little ego trip for the
winner - no one with a life really cares very much about that.  The
competition is the thing and the competition should be about BEER QUALITY.
The real value of competition is that we all take interest and learn what is
necessary to make better beer by observing what the winners did to get
there -  no matter what hardware was used.

Look I'm a pretty critical person - not prone to give anyone much slack, yet
I've tasted a significant number of HB APAs that I'd prefer to SNPA.   I've
tasted at least a handful of HB lagers that I think would give Ayinger a run
for the money.  Nearly all of these produced on very primitive hardware.
OTOH I've tasted many bland and infected beers made on vastly expensive
commercial hardware.   Any really winning beer comes from a great recipe &
ingredients (which is probably 50% of the battle) and is matched with
equally good production methods.   If it takes a big investment in hardware
to make great beer - then prove it to me and sign me up.   I don't believe
the hardware is much of  a factor in quality, to date.

Personally I doubt that any of the expensive HBing hardware I've seen
discussed provides any significant beer quality at all over primitive
methods; just convenience.  Fermenter & lagering temp controls are the
likely exception.   If you are seriously interested in quality after you are
past the 'flaws stage', then learn to make a good starter and find a means
to control fermentation temps.   This makes a lot more difference to beer
quality than any $4k RIMS or $1.5k CCV.

- ------

Anyone please answer me - is it true that the heavy-hardware HBers  really
win all the competitions ?   Personally I doubt it.  I think it's Bill
Wible's obvious inferiority complex at work here.  If it's true then we had
all better figure out what the differences are and what exactly causes such
consistent differences.  That, like any palpable prospect to learn to make
better beer,  would be good, not threatening at all.

 -S








Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 15:58:34 -0500
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: War Of The Worts 8

BREWERS!

The 8th annual War of the Worts is scheduled for Feb 22nd at the Drafting
Room in Springhouse PA, just outside of Philadelphia. As usual you can
expect your beer will be judged by some of the best judges in the country
and those that win can expect fantastic prizes. For full information about
the contest please go to:

http://www.keystonehomebrew.com

and follow the links for the contest. Entry forms, drop off locations and
other pertinent information is available there. All entries must be
received by 02/16/03!

JUDGES!

We look forward to seeing the same happy judges back this year. To register
to judge, please use the new on-line registration form at:

http://www.keystonehops.org/worts8/judgereg.cfm

Thanks and we hope to see you there.




John


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 21:52:37 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Competition ethics

Bill Wible doesn't like the way some of us brew.  I guess if you use a pump
and a thermocouple, you are a professional brewer.  REAL brewers brew in the
kitchen on the stovetop.

Bill, get real.  This is 2003 man.  High tech electronics are available to
everyone at an affordable price.  I started brewing 5 or 6 years ago IN MY
KITCHEN, like most everyone else.  I moved outside because I wanted to do
full boils. Then I bought some Gott coolers and moved to all grain.  I
brewed like that for 3 years.  I was LUCKY ENOUGH to have a space in the
garage open up where I could build an indoor brewery, and built an electric
HERMS up from SCRATCH.  I scrounged and bartered for everything.  I bought
all the controllers on e-bay, and what I couldn't get there, I bought new.
I like gadgets, so I got Hi-tech.  My beer is no better than it was when I
was brewing on the back porch.  My HERMS just makes my day a little easier,
and more FUN. There is a key word for ya.  FUN!  I like the beers I brew,
but not sure if they would win anything in a contest, which I don't enter
very often.  The REAL homebrewers in my club (you know, the guys who brew in
the kitchen, on the stovetop?) usually kick my butt in the monthly contests.
These guys can brew.  They are very knowledgeable and innovative.

Sorry Bill, but equipment does not make you a great brewer/contest winner.
It's all technique, knowledge, and a bit of imagination.  Maybe a little bit
of being an artist too.  It certainly has nothing to do with being Hi-tech.

But what got my goat was you telling me I'm not a REAL homebrewer because I
use an automated system.  BULL.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 00:02:09 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: two things

Jeff Renner discusses fungi with greg man and
 ....
>One of the amazing things about life is that if there niche in which
>a living can to be made, something will no doubt evolve to exploit
>that niche.

Just so.

>Yeast such as we use for beer (and wine and bread)
>apparently evolved to make a living off of fruit.

Wrong niche.  I think that's probably the origin of Saccharomyces, but not
of brewing yeast.     Brewing yeast have the ability to metabolize maltose
and, maltotriose.  Brewing yeast evolved enzymes to break down 1-4 glucose
bonds of maltoXose and these 1-4 bonded glucose molecules don't exist in
fruit.   A more likely explanation is that brewing yeast developed in an
environment containing maltose and maltotriose and that's not fruit.

>People have simply exploited this ability of
 ...
 >People probably first exploited yeast in the making of wine.

People exploiting yeast - ha !

Here we have this crummy little one celled organism with a slim chance of
fame and fortune.  It could have ended up as just another spoilage organism
that humans would try to eradicate.  Oddly,  instead of burning off all the
energy in glucose and turning all the carbons into CO2, yeast mostly take
only a small percentage of the available food energy of the glucose and
leave a lot behind as ethanol.  Yeast only get 2 ATPs(units of useful
cellular energy) when they produce ethanol, vs 38 ATPs if they took all the
energy.

Pre-industrial humans liked this a lot.  No bad flavors, ethanol has a
preservative effect,  the yeast only use 5.2% of the energy which was a
reasonable exchange for the preservation, and as an extra bonus the ethanol
causes a pleasant intoxication to humans ...  tho' addiction and attendant
problems to some.   So humans now give yeast access to millions of barrels
of wort and similarly huge amounts of fruit juice and dough annually.

Today we don't need yeast fermentation for food preservation.  There is no
logical reason to hand over  5.2% of the food energy in grain and juice to
yeast except that we *want* the alcohol and the flavor.  Most of medical
science isn't in favor of ethanol consumption, there are damaging effects of
ethanol on some individuals, and it clearly costs society something to have
ethanol around.  Look I really enjoy the taste and flavor and yes the
intoxicating effect of beer and other alcoholic beverages, but the value is
all selfishly Epicurean with little objective value to society and a clear
objectivity disadvantage in the energy loss.

The yeast are 'selling' us a drug for a 5.2% energy tax  - and humans
willingly, anxiously, happily give yeast this food energy for a drug with
little objective value.  Let's face it Jeff,  yeast are exploiting humans.
We're yeasts' bitches.

 -S



Return to table of contents

---