---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Whining Wible ("DRTEELE")
  Re: competitions (Jay Hellhound)
  Re: competitions (Jeff Renner)
  Las Vegas brew spots ("Jeremy Lenzendorf")
  RE: Competitions (Freddy Toliver)
  Cross Reference of White Labs to WYeast yeasts ("Romanowsky, Paul")
  Re:  Equipment does matter (John Scime)
  Pros (Bill Wible)
  Re: Whining Wible (Bill Wible)
  Iowa Brewers Union Open Homebrew Competition. (Bill VanZante)
  re: The yeasts of Grover's Mill, and Bill's boudoir (Brian Lundeen)
  Boulevard Wheat ("Steve Ford")
  Diacetyl Rest and repitching on a Lager Yeast Cake ("Menzl's")
  Re: Competitions And Judging Brew ("Ross")
  Re: hbd 4167 ("Kevin Morgan")
  Re: PVC in a rectangular cooler (Teresa Knezek)
  p-lambic? (Hayes Antony)
  Perspex fermentors?? ("Mark Ellis - Artisansrus.com")
  Temperature changes / equipment (Thomas Rohner)
  re: $4K Systems ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Re: Equipment does matter ("Tidmarsh Major")
  Power nailers do not make good beer. ("micsmi at yahoo.com")
  RE: PVC in a rectangular cooler (Michael Hartsock)
  RE: Competitions/Equipment ("Jodie Davis")
  First few all grain batches (Michael Hartsock)
  BU:GU  " Designing Great Beers" (ShoesBrew3)
  Barbed Hose Fittings, Professionals? (MOREY Dan)
  food grade sealant ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Re: PVC in a rectangular cooler ---Sealing the Joint ("Pete Calinski")
  RE: Equipment does matter, Professional brewers in competitions (Ronald La Borde)
  See what I mean (Ronald La Borde)


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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:50:29 -0800
From: "DRTEELE" <drteele at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Whining Wible

STOP!STOP! I CAN'T STAND IT ANYMORE!!!

Bill's tantrums are driving me crazy. I read the HBD as a reprieve from my
4YO, 2YO and baby boy and you're ruining my respite. Your analogies of
professional athletes and contractors are totally off base. Your definition
of 'professional' doesn't jibe with the rest of the modern world. Your sense
of fair play isn't fair. It reminds me of the minorities crying for
affirmative action to "level the playing field". Even my 4YO daughtner has
learned how to play "Go Fish" with us without going postal when she doesn't
win (and guess what, she still wants to play it ALL THE TIME!).

>You can't tell me a guy putting on a roof with a power nailer doesn't have
an advantage over a guy >trying to do the same job driving nails with the
back of a screwdriver, and that the results are going to >be the same.

Well, the power nailer gives the roofer a time advantage, but if he's not
diligent about his quality of craftmanship, he can still do a crappy job. As
for the guy driving nails with a screwdriver...if your brewing equipment is
that inappropriate, you've got a problem. This analogy doesn't work because
in my opinion a  $10 hammer would equate to a basic $50-$75 brewing setup
any mail order place could sell you and should be affordable to most anyone
interested in brewing. And as others on this digest can and have attested
to, people do win with just this kind of setup. And a guy with a hammer can
do just as good a job as a power nailer, it'll just take longer and be
harder for him.

>We've also had the golf comparison - "should Tiger Woods be allowed in an
amateur golf >competition?"  How about Walter Ray Williams, should he be
allowed to bowl in a regular, local >league, or an amateur tournament?

Of course not. Tiger golfs for a living and devotes every waking moment to
his golfing career. Same goes for Walter Ray. Nobody makes a living off of
winning homebrew comps. Wake up to reality and go read the definition of
'professional'.

>I think that's getting closer to an accurate analogy, since we're talking
about a combination of >equipment and experience.

I don't think so. A certain level of experience does not equate to being a
professional. Now most professionals do have high levels of experience, but
that does not limit amateurs (i.e. homebrewers) from also having a lot of
experience.

>Even though both of these guys have clearly crossed the line from amateur
to pro, the answer is that >these guys could be allowed in any level of
competition, and it could be made fair for everybody using >the proper
handicaps.  Golf and bowling are both games that use handicaps in
>competition. Unfortunately, we have no way to handicap brewing competitions
based on someone's >advantages due to experience and equipment.

This is one of the few arguments you got right. Handicapping systems do help
to level the playing field for all participants in bowling and golf. And no,
there is no known handicapping system for brewing. BUT (you knew there was
one) professional bowlers and golfers are, by the rules of their sports,
barred from amateur competitions. Just as professional brewers are not
allowed to compete  in homebrew comps. They have their competitions and we
have ours.

>Anybody familiar with "Iron Chef"?  How about if we give the Iron Chef the
Henkels, the Kitchen Aid >and all the other electric appliances, and we give
the challenger a set of plastic utensils to work with?
>Would that be a fair competition?  If the challenger is a great chef,
shouldn't he be able to overcome
>that lack of equipment with all his knowledge and experience?  After all,
you'd say the chef makes
>the meal, not the equipment, right?  Or does equipment just possibly make a
difference?  (Not that Iron >Chef is ever a fair competition anyway.)

Sure it would be a fair competition, as long as who wins or loses is based
on the results and not a timed race. Part of what makes a great cook or
homebrewer is knowing how to make the most out of their equipment. That
takes practice and experience. Feedback from impartial critics doesn't hurt
either (guess where HB'ers get this?). It's all part of the process of
improving our abilities.

It sounds to me like you aren't interested in improving your beermaking
skills. You just want to wipe away those who are better than you so you can
win a few ribbons. If you got your way and you managed to win, do you know
what that would make you? The BEST OF THE WORST. I don't think that's what
any competition is about.

Why don't you do what the rest of us do? If you don't win, then find out
why. Read the judges comments, formulate a plan to solve the criticisms,
brew again and compete again. You may never win, but if your scores improve,
that is the point. Saying you can't win because of the other guy's equipment
is a cop-out (and makes you a quitter). $4k systems can't compensate for
improper mash schedules, cure an infection due to poor sanitation, or filter
esters and phenols from improper fermentation temps. These guys win because
they are better brewers than you. And that doesn't make them professionals.
It just means you are a poor brewer and an even poorer loser.

>You people are all saying what I'm saying, it comes down to the
'definition' of what an amateur is vs.
>the definition of a pro.  What makes someone an amateur, or not an amateur?
or a pro?

Well, it was pretty well defined for all of the modern world (present
company excepted), until the Olympics bastardized themselves.

>And if the only definition of pro is ever going to be "they make beer in a
brewery" or "they sell their
>beer", then I don't buy that, either, especially since so many of you claim
to be able to make way
>better beer than any micro and that you would beat any of them "hands down"
in a competition.
>
>You guys and gals must ALL be pros, then.  ;)

Man, what a whiner. Just because we think we can, or actually do make better
beer than some micros, doesn't make us professionals. It just means some of
us are better brewers that some micros out there.
You assume that equipment and experience makes someone a professional -
WRONG!
You assume that all professional brewers/breweries are better than all
homebrewers - WRONG!
You assume that you can't compete with professionals because of this -
WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!
It's not that you can't. You just don't want to.

>Makes me want to organize the thing.

Fine go ahead. Start your own homebrew comp. Only allow rookie extract
homebrewers and yourself to enter. Judge the entries yourself. Then award
yourself the blue ribbon(s). It won't make me think any more highly of you
or your brewing skills (and I don't think very highly of you as it is).
Tuning you out now.

Wheww. I feel better now. Hey girls! How 'bout a game of cards?

Dan




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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:27:23 -0500
From: Jay Hellhound <whiplash at juno.com>
Subject: Re: competitions

All of this talk about what kind of equipment people
are allowed to use in competitions makes me think of 
paintball... O.K. *beer* with me (so lame). My brother plays 
a lot of paintball. He and many of his friends have very 
expensive guns, maybe not $4K but closer than you may think. 
They are usually Auto-Cockers with a lot of after-market 
accessories. The difference between how far, straight and 
accurate these guns shoot compared to the glorified lob out 
of my Tippman .68 is huge. Now, every once in a while they 
play a "Stock" game. This is when they are only allowed to 
use a certain type of gun (maybe a pump) with little or no 
after-market accessories, to level the playing field. 

Back to brewing: It seems to me this is where the 
discussion is heading. Maybe there should be some Stock 
Brewing Competitions. Brewers would only be allowed to use a 
certain level of technology to brew their entries. Of course 
this would have to be on the honor system but most of it is 
anyway right?

Does this make it any better Bill?



Jay
Brewing Rehab Homebrew at 
The BoilOver BrauHaus in 
Walpole Ma 02081

"It's all fun and games until someone losses an eye."
 - James Hetfield, another American musician with bad grammar



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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:33:44 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: competitions

Jeff Gladish <JeffNGladish at ij.net> writes from Tampa, FL that he

>sat with Jeff Renner on
>the panel at the AHA nationals last summer when he judged Classic American
>Pilsners and wondered why he did not have an entry in the final round for
>that category.  'Didn't enter one?  If he didn't, he should have, in my
>opinion.

Thanks for the suggestion.   I actually didn't enter, for several 
reasons.  I haven't entered competitions at all for several years, in 
part because I keg nearly everything and am not happy with my 
counter-pressure bottling.*  Another reason is that I like to judge 
CAPs to further knowledge of them, and organizers and entrants are 
pleased to have me on that panel.

I have talked to enough CAP brewers to know that I represent a brewer 
that they would like to have their CAP judged against, and it would 
be a feather in their cap (so to speak) to "knock me off."  And I'd 
love to have my CAP judged against others.  I'm confident I'd do well 
AND that I wouldn't necessarily be the best.  So maybe I should 
rethink this.

I think the best CAP I've tasted was one brewed by Dave Sapsis at 
MCAB-3 in St. Louis two years ago.  It was crisp, snappy, and 
balanced.  I would have loved to have a head-to-head against Dave's 
beer.  And I've had others I would have been proud to have brewed.

BTW, George Fix entered one in the same competition and it was a 
great beer, but I felt it was too big for style.  I talked to George 
afterwards about it - it was brewed to a historic recipe (Nugey, 
1948, referring to a pre-prohibition lager).  It was 1.060+ and 
hopped ~45 IBU.  Sort of an Imperial CAP, or at least an India CAP. 
Actually, it was only slightly too big by the guidelines, and it was 
a pleasure to taste/judge it and then talk with George about it.  He 
and I were discussing how common other non-pilsner pre-pro lagers 
were before he died.  I wish for all kinds of reasons including this 
that he was still with us.

Dave's CAP changed my own brewing.  Along with what I learned about 
rest temperatures at the Anheuser Busch pilot plant, I now use a 
first saccharification rest at ~145F, then ~158F.  This gives me ~80% 
apparent attenuation, for a crisp, snappy, more pilsner-like beer 
that I really like.

Jeff

* Some may remember my commenting here last year about noting stale, 
oxidized pilsners at the NHC in June and that they seemed to all be 
sediment-free, indicating that they were CP filled.
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:09:45 -0600
From: "Jeremy Lenzendorf" <jlenzendorf at progeng.com>
Subject: Las Vegas brew spots

SWMBO and I will be in Las Vegas with another couple from 2/21 to 2/24.  The
brewery locator on beertown.org is down so can anyone give me any must see
beer stops?

Thanks,
Jeremy Lenzendorf
West Bend, WI



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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:17:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Freddy Toliver <freddytoliver at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Competitions

I agree with Bill.  Better equipment can make better
beer.  Better brewers make better beer.  Better taste
buds can tell which beers are better.  And domination
of brewing competitions by a select few may limit the
participation of a number of others.

To use Kent Fletcher's analogy - Should we disband the
Yankees because they are good?  No, but they shouldn't
be playing against the Toledo Mud Hens or Huntsville
Stars either.

Why not have advanced, intermediate, and beginner
categories?  Brewers could be restricted from entering
lower levels of competitions after having won in that
category at that level, or some such thing.

Just an idea.

Awaiting the flames,

Freddy Toliver
Streator, IL




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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:01:10 -0500
From: "Romanowsky, Paul" <paul.romanowsky at siemens.com>
Subject: Cross Reference of White Labs to WYeast yeasts

Hi All,

Is there any site on the web that has a cross reference chart or list that
has information such as:

WHAT White Labs yeast  "is equal to / or closest to"  WHAT Wyeast yeast.
This would be helpful when you have a recipe calling for Wyeast but your LHB
shop only carries White Labs and visa-versa.

Thanks

Paul Romanowsky




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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:40:04 -0800 (PST)
From: John Scime <jascime at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:  Equipment does matter

Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net> writes on the above-

Bill, I've only been all-grain brewing for one year,
I've never won a competition (or even entered one).
But I still don't buy your argument. I think your
'roofing' analogy actually makes the point many people
are trying to make. It is true that the roofer with a
neumatic nailer (analogous to a $4K brewing system)
will be much _faster_ than someone using a hammer, but
there is no correlation between 'faster' and 'better'.
I hired roofers 2 yrs ago to do our roof because I
didn't have time and my wife was 8 mths pregnant and
didn't need the stress ... and I was on the roof while
they worked, and can tell you they did a poor job, but
did it in one day. You can actually do a lot of damage
to shingles with one of those neumatic nailers!  I
know I could have done a much better job, but would
have taken me 3 weeks to do it (using a hammer, not
the back of a screw driver)! 

So my point is equipment doesn't make for great beer,
it just makes the process simpler and faster.  You
still must conduct all steps properly and with care in
order to achieve excellent results.  

Even if there is a correlation between owners of $4K
equipment and great homebrew (and it appears the
consensus is that there isn't), I would suggest to you
that it is because the folks willing to spend $4K are
_totally_ absorbed in the hobby and 'live, breath,
eat, sleep' brewing!  As a result of this absorbtion
they are attentive to all aspects of the brewing
process, most notably yeast treatment and fermentation
temperature control.  And those are things anyone can
do with a minimal investment.

Cheers!
John Scime
Member of Barleyment for Lanark-North
Almonte, Ontario, Canada



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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:21:03 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Pros


>most professionals do have high levels of experience, but
>that does not limit amateurs (i.e. homebrewers) from also
>having a lot of experience.

Wow - you finally got my point!!  So wherein lies the
difference?  A homebrewer who graduated Siebel entering
BJCP competitions ain't no different than Tiger Woods
without his pro card playing amateur events.  It's a
guy who has all the tools, but refuses to take the
step up to pro and remains an amateur.

And we have several of those kind of guys here.

Bill



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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:33:19 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: Whining Wible

>> Makes me want to organize the thing.

Oh, I guess from your post, you didn't understand
what this was a reference to.  In the other post,
I said micros shouldn't be allowed to enter.  It
might be a novel idea "Beat the micros".

That's what I referring to - organizing a
competition for micros to compete against
homebrewers.

But now that I think about it, it would probably
never happen.  One of my local micros has win gold
at the GABF 5 times in that past 5 years.  What
incentive do they have to beat your homebrew, and
why would they care?  They probably wouldn't enter,
because they'd only have everything to lose and
nothing to gain, because winning gold at the GABF
5 times proves all they need to.

So its a shame all you 'pros' will never get the
chance to prove you're right, and I'll never get
the chance to prove I'm right and laugh at you.

Bill



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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:21:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Bill VanZante <vanzantewm at yahoo.com>
Subject: Iowa Brewers Union Open Homebrew Competition.

Iowa Brewers Union Open Homebrew Competition 2003

Back by hoppier demand! The IBU Open continues to rule
as Iowa's largest homebrew competition and is fully
sanctioned by the AHA. The IBU Open is also a
qualifying event for the High Plains Brewer award.

Judging: Saturday, March 8th, 2003 (10 a.m.)
Entry deadline: Sunday, March 2nd, 2003

* $5.00 per entry.
* Two (2) bottles per entry.
* Only brown or green unmarked 10-16 oz. bottles
accepted.
* Limit of two (2) entries per category. Each entry
must be uniquely different.
* Competition Specific Category: IBU Challenge.  For
you hopheads, the only requirement for this category
is the beer entered must have 1 IBU of bitterness per
1 OG. Example:  1.045 OG must contain no less than 45
IBUs.
** Local entries must be received by 7:00 p.m., Sunday
March 2nd, 2003**
* Ship to the address below or visit
www.IowaBrewersUnion.org for local drop-off sites.

Edwards Graphic Arts
Attn: Mike Edwards
2700 Bell Ave
Des Moines, IA  50321
515-280-9765

* All Beer Judge Certification Program (BJCP) styles
will be accepted including mead and cider. The
Director of Judging may combine categories with
limited entries if necessary.
* Style guidelines are available on the Internet at
http://www.bjcp.org 
* Entries must score a minimum of 25 points in order
to win a category. 
* Bottles will not be returned. 
Pick up your entry forms on-line at
http://www.IowaBrewersUnion.org.
Forms may also be faxed or e-mailed to you by calling
(515) 253-2240 or e-mailing vanzantewm at yahoo.com.
** Good Luck! - Bill VanZante IBU Open '03 Organizer



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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:35:24 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject:  re: The yeasts of Grover's Mill, and Bill's boudoir

Steve Alexander writes:
There are a *lot* of genus Saccharomyces (sugar eating) yeasts besides 
Saccharomyces cerevisiae.  Here is a list of named Saccharomyces: 
S. barnettii , S. bayanus , S. bulderi , S. cariocanus, S. cariocus, <snip>

Me:
Steve, you missed a few. S. yaya, S. smallberries, S. big-boote, .... ;-)

But seriously, do you have any information on the natural organisms (yeasts,
bacteria?) that the cider makers of Normandy use for their natural
fermentations? They are said to be very cold tolerant, and I'm wondering if
these aren't some wild "lager" yeasts. 

Kent Fletcher asks:
Bill, how do you get out of bed in the morning? 

Me:
Kent, the real question is:
If Bill had a $4000 system to help him get out of bed, would he make more
sense? ;-)

Cheers
Brian



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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:32:46 -0600
From: "Steve Ford" <spare at kc.rr.com>
Subject: Boulevard Wheat

Recently there were several posts regarding Boulevard Unfiltered Wheat beer.
I finally had a chance to talk with head brewer Steven Pauwels and he passed
along this information.  30 per cent unmated red wheat, no specialty malt.
Kettle hops are Magnum and Simcoe added at beginning of boil to achieve 13
IBU.  No finishing hops.  As I recall from previous discussions a different
yeast is used for bottling.  Hope that helps.
Steve Ford
Overland Park, KS



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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:45:59 -0500
From: "Menzl's" <menzl at concentric.net>
Subject: Diacetyl Rest and repitching on a Lager Yeast Cake

I have a CAP currently going and was wondering about doing the 
diacetyl rest and repitching a fresh batch on the yeast cake.
I have seen many different opinions about when to do the diacetyl
rest, either leave it on the cake and take it up to 60 deg F, or
transfer to a secondary and then rest at 60 deg F.  Anyone have
a specific recommendation?  I usually transfer, then rest, but
I have been wondering if that is the best.  Does any
recommendation change if I want to pitch another CAP on the
yeast cake?  I am using White Labs Czech Budejovice yeast and
would like to experience what fermentation would be like for a
lager yeast when I have a large cake (I suspect I under pitched
this last batch.)

Thanks for any help!

William Menzl
Midland, Michigan [99.8, 344.8] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:56:37 -0800
From: "Ross" <BurningBrite at charter.net>
Subject: Re: Competitions And Judging Brew

<NAIVE-MODE>
Okay, maybe I'm a little naive about all this, but I thought the main reason
for entering a competition was to get feedback on your efforts.  Rather, the
focus of the numerous postings to date appears to be on "winning" and
"fairness".  Assuming one receives good comments and advice back from the
judges (which is a related issue raised in a different thread)on what was
done well and how to improve one's homebrew, what's the real issue?
Winning?  Who cares.  You go to a competition, share ideas with other
knowledgable folk, taste other cool brews, do your own comparing, get
feedback from trained and certified experts (maybe if you're lucky get a
little ego-stroking in front of all these smart people), and then you go
home and try again.  Doesn't seem to me like the important part of that was
which 6 brews out of 100 got called out over the PA system.  Heck, the
better the quality of the beers being evaluated by the judges, the better
their suggestions to me will be, because they have good quality benchmarks
from which to offer their advice.</NAIVE-MODE>

Ooops, I guess I ran into a tree looking for the forest...

 ...Ross Potter, Richland, WA

"Keep away from people who belittle your ambitions.  Small people always do
that, but the really great, make you feel that you too can become great."  -
Mark Twain



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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:27:37 -0500
From: "Kevin Morgan" <kevin.morgan2 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: hbd 4167


George says
>Also, not all brewing systems are "3 >barrels," and a separate lauter tun
is
>actually more desirable for several >reasons, thus making a 4 vessel
>brewhouse the cat's meow.

George:

Could you expound upon this?  Why a seperate lauter tun?

Kevin, brewing in south jersey




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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:02:52 -0900
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com>
Subject: Re: PVC in a rectangular cooler

On or thereabout 2/11/03, beerbuddy at attbi.com spoke thusly:
>After taking out the existing drain plug, the hole through the cooler is just
>large enough (with about 1/32 of an inch leeway) for the tubing. 
>What can I use to seal the hole? I was thinking of using a number of 
>rubber gaskets between the final T fitting and the hole, but that 
>might not be tight enough. I worry about using plumbers putty where 
>it will contact the extract.

I got a threaded T fitting, and attached a step-down hose barb 
fitting to it... attached 5/16" vinyl tubing to the hose barb, and 
slipped it out through the existing cooler drain... the flare at the 
hose barb connection is perfect for sealing the existing drain 
opening on a Coleman cooler... you can see photos of my incredibly 
ugly manifold at http://rant.mivox.com/

Now, since you've already removed the drain, I'd say just go with 
some snug fitting gaskets. If vinyl tubing pulled snug up against the 
original drain hole seals up fine on my cooler, you ought to be able 
to get a good enough seal with some good gaskets. I'd use silicone 
instead of rubber though... AFAIK, it has better heat resistance, and 
is less likely to leach funny flavors into your mash.

 ...even with that spectacularly ugly manifold I've got, I got 80+% 
efficiency out of my system weekend before last... just test the seal 
with some plain water before you invest any grain in it. :-) $10 
systems are where it's at... gives you more money to spend on 
ingredients, which means MORE BEER!
- -- 
::Teresa : Two Rivers, Alaska::
[2849, 325] Apparent Rennerian

"It has been my experience that folks who
have no vices have very few virtues."
                      -- Abraham Lincoln


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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:43:00 +0200
From: Hayes Antony <HayesA at aforbes.co.za>
Subject: p-lambic?

I see that Charlie Papazian does not read HBD that much any more. In the
latest Zymurgy he muses that a p-lambic must be a new beer developed in
Belgium.

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg



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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:32:56 +1100
From: "Mark Ellis - Artisansrus.com" <mark at artisansrus.com>
Subject: Perspex fermentors??

G'day all,

Just musing about gadgets and stuff, and was wondering if Perspex 
might be
considered a usable base to make transparent fermenters, even conical
fermenters out of?

I do not know anything about food safe polymers so no doubt someone 
here
might have a clue.

I realise it probably is about the same cost as SS but thought it 
might be
sort of neat to mess with instead of HDPP etc

Thanks for that!

Mark E. in Oz 


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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 11:46:46 +0100
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Temperature changes / equipment

Hi all, hi Ian
from 64 to 68 F makes about 2 C. I don't think that the fluctuation
in your ferment will even reach 1 C. I would say you're ok. Given
those using freezers or fridges with thermostatic controls have a
deadband or hysteresis in this range are doing fine. (like me)
If you have Zymurgy, read the geek-article about controllers, it is
interesting.

I have to say a word regarding competition ethics/equipment-itis.
I once tried a beer brewed on a wood fired copper washing tub.
These two guys make exceptional beers with their very primitive
setup.(try to keep a mash rest temp. with a wooden fire is a
challenge, i've seen it)
But then, they only could have entered the dust from the bottom of
their kegs and bottles. (14 gal)
Besides, there is only one competition in Switzerland, that i'm aware
of.
On the other hand, a local brewery adopted one of their beers 
successfully.
So why should a brewery with 6 german-educated brewmasters do
such things? Of course they need to make money, and have limited
time to experiment.


I personally like my propane fired 3-tier system(14 gal). 
My counterflow chiller with a 2.5 bbl coolingwater tank.
We even rent a place, so we can keep our stuff standing around.
It's been a chesemaking factory, so it's made for easy cleaning.
We use Promash on a permanently installed notebook, have a walk-
in cooler and two controlled fermenter fridges.
But i brewed my first batches from prehopped kit's in a garage
without a water tap.
So we built/bought all the stuff because we are lazy bastards,
and it gives us additional freedom.

It boils all down to: We don't make better beer, than the guys
with the woodfired setup. We just brew more often, have our
stuff easier cleaned and sanitized, and have one more homebrew.

Cheers  Thomas


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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 07:14:06 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: $4K Systems

Well, seems like Bill has started one of those 'zombie' threads that take on a
life of their own, refusing to die. Of course, that could be because Bill
keeps posting, refusing to accept the logic of the overwhelming number of
opinions that say that it's the brewer, not the equipment, that determines
beer quality.

Let's try another approach, though Bill probably won't buy this either....
In the pro world, it's also the brewer that makes the difference (or are there
fully automated systems out there?). As several folks have mentioned, many of
us have had professionally brewed beer (from both brew pubs and micros) that
are either outright infected or less than steller from recipe or process
issues. And just because a brewer is professional doesn't mean that he has a
great system. They may be very expensive (especially by comparison to homebrew
systems), but they may still have serious problems.

George de Piro mentioned issues with his equipment, and yet he manages to brew
award winning beers on it. Rob Moline brewed his legendary barleywine on a
system that continually gave him problems. Both began as homebrewers and brew
great beer on systems that are still less than perfect. George, Rob, ....
could you put a price tag on your dream system? I'm sure that $4000 wouldn't
begin to touch it. But given that dream system, would it make an 'average'
brewer into an award winner? I doubt it,  though many of us would love to have
dream equipment. Bottom line, as most all of us recognize - it's the brewer
that makes the difference  (though it's the yeast that makes the beer).

And as to allowing them to compete in homebrew competitions; if George, Rob,
or other pro brewers want to brew at home on whatever type of system they have
there, then they should be allowed (and are) to enter them in homebrew comps.
Most competitions would be glad to get their entries, and most homebrewers
would be happy to be able to measure their own beer against these homebrewing
'professionals.'

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL






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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 07:06:12 -0600
From: "Tidmarsh Major" <tidmarsh at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Equipment does matter

On 10 Feb 2003 at 0:13, Bill Wible wrote:

> You can't tell me a guy putting on a roof with a power
> nailer doesn't have an advantage over a guy trying to
> do the same job driving nails with the back of a
> screwdriver, and that the results are going to be
> the same.

That's not a good analogy. A better comparison would be a power 
nailer versus a hammer. While the power nailer is faster, it isn't 
necessarily _better_. You can drive a whole lot more nails per unit 
of time, but because of variations in wood density, the nails won't 
all be driven exactly to the proper depth: some will be right, some 
will be over-sunk, some will protrude. 

On a roof covered with felt & shingles it may not matter. On a deck, 
it will show and will look cheap. Not all carpenters will take the 
time to drive the nails properly by hand, but a good carpenter 
(whether amateur or professional) _can_ get better (but not faster) 
results with a hammer than a pneumatic nailer. Not all consumers will 
notice the difference, either, but those with an eye for the right 
details will be able to tell.

Similarly, with proper skill, a brewer with simple manual equipment 
can control the brewing process and produce superior beer. I'll be 
the first to admit that my process doesn't have the consistency that 
a more automated system would. Then again, McDonald's and Budweiser 
have tremendous consistency with their products but I wouldn't want 
to make them at home. 

Tidmarsh Major
Tuscaloosa, Ala.




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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 05:59:02 -0800 (PST)
From: "micsmi at yahoo.com" <micsmi at yahoo.com>
Subject: Power nailers do not make good beer.

"I'm not buying it.  Equipment does matter.

You can't tell me a guy putting on a roof with a power
nailer doesn't have an advantage over a guy trying to
do the same job driving nails with the back of a
screwdriver, and that the results are going to be
the same."

This post brought me out of lurk-dom.  Sorry, Bill. I
also disagree.  

First of all, speed does not necessarily translate
into quality (just, ask the roofing company who did my
house a year ago...they have been out twice to replace
25-30 shingles that were originally put on with a
power nailer).  

Second, if a guy is hammering a nail with a
screwdriver, he needs a better understanding of the
tool he needs to do the job.  Hey, you won't have much
luck mashing grain in a paper bag either, huh?  But,
you also don't need to spend $1000 on an all stainless
mash tun either.

What is most important is an understanding of the
process.  And, the process ain't that complicated. 

Proof?  On a whim, I entered an Am. Wheat that took
3rd overall in the 2002 NHC. Must have had everything
to do with my equipment...a homemade zap-bucket for
sparging (man, that Lowes HDPE is uptown stuff),  and
a single 7 gallon pot I use for boiling and mashing...

Ease up, and enjoy this for what it is...a hobby (read
ENJOYMENT). Brew on.  

Michael
    







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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 06:17:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: PVC in a rectangular cooler

At Lowe's I found 100% silicon sealant (they have it
in a squeeze tube and for a caulk gun) it says that it
is FDA approved for food contact.  $3 I think

Mike



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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:28:04 -0500
From: "Jodie Davis" <JodieDavis at adelphia.net>
Subject: RE: Competitions/Equipment

Okay, I have to chirp up.
I've entered two competitions in the past few months, placing third with
a partial mash Bitter and this weekend a first (over 250 entries) with a
hoppy American Ale. Both were partial mashes using Gott coolers and
boiling on the stove. Beginner's luck? Perhaps. But I have been reading
listening to all of you and putting into action your advice about
sanitation, pitching enough happy yeast, aerating, etc.
I've since stepped up to all grain and my husband has offered to buy me
one of those $4,000 systems. I don't expect the equipment to improve my
beer so much as I anticipate it will help me to control the variables
and keep me from lugging heavy pots around. And get the brewing out of
the kitchen--my husband's wish ;)
To take the size doesn't matter comment one step further, it ain't the
meat it's the motion guys! (Oh gosh, did I write that? My Dad reads this
list! I mean, Dad, its skill not fancy equipment that makes good beer.)

Jodie Davis Barthlow
Canton, GA



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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 06:33:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: First few all grain batches

After all the discussion about ethics and equipment, I
have a beer making question.

My first few batches of all grain have stopped at a
high FG.  Both were 5 gal batches with 22 oz W1028
starters.  The first batch was a Wee Heavy with a OG
of 1.068 and a FG of 1.022.  I mashed for 60 min at
150.  Iodine test indicated full conversion.  Mashout
for 20min at 165.  The second was a brown ale, OG
1.050 with a FG of 1.020.  Mashed for 60 min at 155,
iodine tested for conversion.  no mashout.

The Wee Heavy had been in primary for 7 days and
Secondary for nearly 4 weeks.  The Brown was in
primary for 10 days and secondary for two weeks.  I
planned on bottling it last night, but put in it a
tertiary when I took the gravity.

Any idea why my FG's seem to get stuck at ~ 1.020?

Mike



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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:42:28 EST
From: ShoesBrew3 at aol.com
Subject: BU:GU  " Designing Great Beers"

HBD Collective,

 Even though I do not agree with Bill I do, however, want to thank him for 
drumming up so much activity - Thanks Bill.  Its nice to have access to such 
a vast array of opinions and thoughts.  This is by far the best homebrew we 
can "tap" into.
  
Can someone please tell me how to utilize Ray Daniel's BU: GU ratio in 
"Designing Great Beers." BTW, this book should be in every brewers library.

Shoes


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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 08:53:29 -0600
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: Barbed Hose Fittings, Professionals?

Does anyone know a source for barbed hose fittings.  I recently purchased a
beer engine.  I would like to connect the engine to the liquid out, ball
lock, quick connect.  All my quick connects are the threaded flare
connection type.  The engine has a 1/2" barbed fitting but the mating
fitting for the quick connect is for 1/4" hose.  Will the sudden expansion
from 1/4" to 1/2" cause a problem?  Any advice is appreciated.


Bill asks:

"What makes someone an amateur, or not an amateur? or a pro?"

By definition, a professional (pro) is:

1.  Someone who conforms to technical or ethical standards of a profession.

2.  Someone who exhibits a courteous, conscientious, businesslike manner in
the workplace.

3.  Someone who participates for gain or livelihood (paid) in an activity
often engaged by amateurs.

As a homebrewer, I know of no technical or ethical standards pertaining to
the activities or process of brewing.  There are ethical standards for
serving, regardless if the product was purchased or was brewed at home.
Therefore, I do not qualify as a professional under the terms of definition
1.

Since I do not brew at my workplace, I am not a professional by definition
2.

Since I am not paid for brewing, I am not a professional by definition 3.

I am convinced that someone is only a professional brewer if they are paid
for brewing or they brew at their workplace.  An amateur is not by
definition inferior to a professional.  They have choose to pursue other
means of livelihood.

Prost!
Dan Morey
Club B.A.B.B.L.E.  http://hbd.org/babble
[213.1, 271.5]


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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:03:40 -0500
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: food grade sealant

Someone asked about sealant for a mashtun thru-fitting.
 My local hardware store sells DAP brand (naymmv) silicone
"adhesive" that is food safe (as labeled). It is in a small tube
(1 oz) and smells/looks like bathtub caulk. After curing and washing
w/soap+water this is food grade (bathtub caulk is_not_FDA). 
Though similar in composition the food grade version is 100%
silicone, the bathtub grade has other stabilizers in it.
 If there is no motion/movement of the components it holds up
very well. Adheres well to plastic and metal and stands up to
mash temperatures. 

NL


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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:03:23 -0500
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: PVC in a rectangular cooler ---Sealing the Joint

Timothy
BeerBuddy
North Bend, WA

Asked, "What can I use to seal the hole?"

I love DAP 8641 sealant. I buy it in the caulking gun size.  It is food
grade and stands up to temperatures of 400F.  TO spot it amongst all the
different sealants at the local home store, it is in a blue tube and is
labeled "silicone" not "silicone II".  Look at the fine print on the back
for FDA# or #8641.  Comes in clear or white.

I use it everywhere I want to seal anything.

You can get small tubes at a real premium but I found the caulking gun size
is much more economical.  Just leave a "glob" on the end of the spout when
you are done.  If the glob keeps the air from going back into the spout, you
can just peel it off next time and have fresh sealant right at the tip.

Hope this helps.


Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 07:22:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald La Borde <pivoron at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Equipment does matter, Professional brewers in competitions

>You can't tell me a guy putting on a roof with a
power
>nailer doesn't have an advantage over a guy trying to
>do the same job driving nails with the back of a
>screwdriver, and that the results are going to be
>the same.

Well you're wrong on this one too. When my roof was
replaced, my roofer gave me the choice to have the
nails done with a nailer, or with a hammer.  I asked
which was better, and he said the hammer was better
because the nails could be driven just enough to set
with the roofing material.  With the power nailer, he
said sometimes the nails are driven a tad too far
causing damage to the roofing!
- -----------------------------------------
We have professional brewers as homebrew club members,
and also have homebrew shop owners (are these also
professionals, Bill?). The club considers their
participation as a stroke of good luck. These brewers
support the club in many ways. They probably share
more homebrew with the club than most other members.
When we need beer, we often are donated kegs by their
respective employers. When we need recipe advice, they
are willing to share that as well as just about any
other question we may have.

At brewoffs, many times these same brewers will gladly
manage the task. Brewery tours, advice, beer, one
would be a fool to discourage these people.

One other thing, most contest winners already know
their beer is good. Just think about it. They really
do not neet the contest ribbon to tell them that!  No,
they enter to see how they can make the beers even
better. In fact, that's why they win - they have the
drive and energy and skill to brew winning beers.
Everyone has equipment.

Ron



=====
Ron
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 07:32:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald La Borde <pivoron at yahoo.com>
Subject: See what I mean

Well, just as I sent the last post about having
professional brewers in our club and competitons, I
check my email to find this about one of our members.
An honorary member of both clubs here in the New
Orleans area.

"Hats off to one of our members, Peter Caddoo, who won
the MCAB (master brewers competition) IPA category. To
even enter this competition you had to place first in
that category in a handful of the biggest
competitions. In other words Pete was up against only
brewers who had placed first in IPA in a competition.
This makes him THE best brewer of IPA in the country."

Ron

=====
Ron
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde



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