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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Civility, Gravity, and the Cylindroconical Fermenter (Charles)
  More on RIMS Design ("Mike Sharp")
  More Water Please ("Mike Sharp")
  Collecting Yeast from Blow-off Tubes (Bob Hall)
  Fridge for Cornies ("Adam Wead")
  diacetyl reduction in ales ("dave holt")
  diacetyl reduction iin ales, part 2 ("dave holt")
  RE:oxygenator stone, Alan and Bill W. W.W. points (Wil)
  Weight Watchers points and Homebrew (J & B Gallihue)
  homebrewing w/ widget (J & B Gallihue)
  using horehound (J & B Gallihue)
  Re:  Counter-Pressure Bottle Filler Recommendations ("Beer Phantom")
  RE: Party Pig and staling ("Jodie Davis")
  re: Forwarded: Beer Filtering (Michael Owings)
  yeast bank ("Braam Greyling")
  Re: trip to Ireland (Jeff Renner)
  Re:  Temperature Probe Placement ("Dennis Collins")
  yeast nutrient in yeast starter (Jeff Renner)
  caloric value of beer (ensmingr)
  MCAB-V Thanks to Lallemand, Inc ("Ridgely, William")
  RE: temp probe placement (David Towson)
  Re: Question on grain utilization/ LHBS plug (DHinrichs)
  RE: Calorie calculator (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Homebrew calorie summary information ("Andy Mikesell")
  Screw Top capping.. ("Eyre")
  Req: Water Profile in Columbus, OH (=?iso-8859-1?q?Stephen=20Hetrick?=)
  Weight Watchers, USDA, And Beer ("Ross")


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:34:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles at thestewarts.com
Subject: Civility, Gravity, and the Cylindroconical Fermenter

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Sean McDonald <seanmc at irga.com> scolded Alan Meeker,
telling him his comments were "unoriginal," "completely useless," and "painful
to read"  and further admonishes Alan to ignore posts he doesn't like and no
post anything about them.  As philosopher, rogue, and all-around wise-guy Buggs
Bunny said, "ironic, ain't it?"

I took the liberty of checking Sean's previous posts.  Here's what we have:

7/11 - Complained about AHA, calling them lazy, and opining that "what they do
now is not simpley [sic] not enough.

7/16 - Whines about the AHA not serving him and admonishes Mark Tumarkin for
having the tumerity to voice his positive opinion about the AHA, "In the future,
you shouldn't be so quick to defend the AHA and disregard the criticism."

7/17 - Tells Mark Tumarkin, whom he calls ignorant, that he "blindly and
stupidly accept[s] what every [sic] rhetoric that is poured down your fat
gullet. . . " and tells him to "hop back onto your short bus and take some more
of your 'special' classes."

2/4 - Tells Mr. Kolb that ". . . judging from the sound of Mr. Kolb's situation
(i.e. divorced twice), I don't believe he has any pants left to wear."

Now, to be fair, he did give actual brewing advice once (10/17) and has asked
one brewing question (11/2).  So it looks like his signal-to-noise ratio is 5
humor-impaired, offensive, and generally useless tirades to two short on-topic
posts.

Now, Sean, I'm not trying to tell you how to treat people or what you can and
can't say (that seems to be your job).  I'm merely observing a recent decrease
in civility in a forum that I have been on for years and have come to value very
highly.  The acrid, off-topic, and mean-spirited diatribe as of late is at least
distessing and at most destructive to this forum.  I suggest that you wait a
little while before you click on the send button and ask yourself what kind of
an image your posts are projecting about you, and what purpose they serve.

And now, we return to our regularly scheduled program . . .

Thanks for all the constructive advice from everyone on my conical fermenter
(see pictures at http://Charles.TheStewarts.com/brewing)!  I received dozens of
replies, on the HBD and off, and here's what I ended up with:

(1) For the lid, I used polycarbonate that I actually found from Home Despot
(the guy on the phone said they didn't sell any glass, plexiglass, or PC).  The
stuff is GREAT!  I cut it using a jig that cut a perfect circle with my router. 
After sanding the edges a little, it looks commercial!  Impressive, if I don't
say so myself!

(2) For the bottom dump, I 've just done a quick-and-dirty job with
off-the-shelf parts from Home Despot for now.  I just used a full-port 1/2" ball
valve, an O-ring, and a 1/2" to 3/4" coupler that I hacksawed off the 3/4" part,
leaving a flange for the O-ring to seat to, and a 1/2" barb fitting.  Very quick
and easy.  I may try to convert to stainless sometime, but then again, it's
working pretty well . . . .

(3) As for the stand, I built two 12" squares of 3/4" pvc with 3-way "L"
connectors.  The legs are also 3/4" pvc that have been filled with wooden
dowels, but are not glued in.  That way, I can change the lenght of the legs to
suit my needs. The longer legs in the picture are great for filling corny kegs. 
When I want to lager in the fridge, I'll remove 'em and attach 12" legs that
will allow the fermenter to fit into the fridege.  The only problem is, with the
long legs, it's a little wobbly.  I may try to put some Bondo inside the legs,
the push the wood dowels back in.  I think this may stiffen the stand quite a
bit.  But for now, it's working beautifully.  And I put casters on the bottom -
I can actually wheel it across the basement full of liquid (yes, I tried it).

(4) Finally, from the "duh" department, I tried using a hose from the brew
kettle on the patio to the fermenter in the basement - and it worked better than
I had hoped!  Completely drained the kettle in a couple of minutes and the
suction from the siphon left less than 8 oz. of liquid in the bottom! 
Additionally, the fan-sprayer on the end of the hose sprayed so well that I had
a couple of inches of foam on top when it was done.  I will never carry another
fermenter-full of wort down the stairs again.

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Paul Romanowsky asks about oxygenation stones for gas-in
fittings on corny kegs.

Paul, I've thought about this too, but decided that it dramatically increased my
chances of having beer siphoned back into the regulator.  Anyhow, it's not too
tough to shake the keg for a few minutes when I'm in a hurry.  Otherwise, the
keg carbonates just fine in a few days on it's own.

Peace, love, and beer,

Chip Stewart
Charles at TheStewarts.com
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com

Support anti-Spam legislation.
Join the fight http://www.cauce.org


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:37:06 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: More on RIMS Design

Martin Brungard speaks on RIMs Design

"Those findings strongly suggest that locating a probe or thermometer at the
heater outlet is mandatory.  It is too easy to locally overheat and denature
the wort.  Locating a probe at the heater outlet is even more critical if a
PID is used to control the heater.  The PID would probably be fooled if it
measured only the tun outlet temperature, again leading to potential local
overheating.
 
"I suggest that the primary temperature sensing location should be the
heater outlet.  I further recommend that a secondary temperature sensing
point should be at the tun outlet.  Comparison of the primary and secondary
temperatures can be used to judge the overall mash temperature and step
progress."

In fact, if you use a cartidge heater, you can get instrumented heater rods.
These have a T/C built into the rod.  They're made in several varieties, but
for our purposes the best version is the one where the T/C is bonded to the
far end of the rod.  Flow goes into the RIMS chamber at the end with the
wires, and travels down the rod.  They make another kind of instrumented rod
with the T/C in the middle of the rod, primarily intended to prevent heater
failure from overheating.  But to control liquid temp, the best way is to
measure it at the extreme exit end of the heater.  

Martin hit another issue right on the head.  There are heat losses in the
piping, so to control the Mash tun temp, you ideally need a second PID
controller in the mash. Of course that controller could be "you", reading a
temp gauge.  But to make it automatic, you can use two controllers.  I have
thoughts on a unique way of doing this, if anyone is interested.  

I'll post a picture of my RIMS chamber with the instrumented rod as soon as
I can. Unfortunately, my digital camera went Kaput...

Regards, 
Mike Sharp


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:57:41 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: More Water Please

Patrick Hughes asks on Water

"This question is for A.J. DeLange. <snip/>  Also, are chloramines removed
by a charcoal filter?

Sorry, I'm not AJ, but yes, chloramines are removed by activated carbon.
The flow rates for effective removal with such filters are very limited,
though, and I think many who use this technique exceed them.  Also, this
type of filter is a source of bacterial contamination, and I've read that
even the filters that release colloidal silver are susceptible.  Even on
these, the bacteria count exiting the filter exceeds the count entering the
filter within 30 days.  

If you have chloramines (or chlorine) you want to get rid of, you might
consider treating your water with Campden tablets.  Potassium metabisulfite
creates dissolved sulfur dioxide, which reacts readily (virtually instantly)
with Chlorine and Chloramine.  Sulfur dioxide is used by wastewater plants
to remove chlorine/chloramine in their effluent.  It will increase the
sulfates, but not significantly.  Probably less than half a tablet is needed
to treat the water to brew 5 gallons.  If your HLT is a 15.5 gallon keg (and
you fill it), I think you could use one tablet and be safe.

Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:33:13 -0500
From: Bob Hall <rallenhall at toast.net>
Subject: Collecting Yeast from Blow-off Tubes

I brew most of my ales in 6 gal. carboys and attach a blow-off tube. When 
the fermentation calms down I take off the tube and attach a standard 
bubbler airlock. The bottom of the water bucket I use as an airlock for the 
blow-off always has a nice layer of what I assume is the purest top-cropped 
yeast. Is there any way to collect yeast from a blow-off system for future 
pitching with all due regard for purity and sanitation?

Bob Hall,
Napoleon, OH



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:39:11 -0700
From: "Adam Wead" <a_wead at hotmail.com>
Subject: Fridge for Cornies

Dear All:

Even though it seems like winter is never going to end, my back porch method 
of refridgeration will only last so long...

So, I'm thinking about getting a fridge just big enough for 1 or 2 corny 
kegs.  I'm going to be moving back into an apartment soon, so I can't get a 
full-size fridge.  What I'd like is a "kegerator" size fridge...without the 
tower and taps.  I'll add those later, when I have the money.

I need to go cheap (who doesn't).  I've seen some compact "counter-height" 
fridges for under $200.  They list the height as 33", but I'm sure this is 
the outside dimensions.  They're also full of drawers and shelves, which I 
may or may not be able to remove.

Does anyone know of a specific brand that will work?

thanks for the help!

adam wead
(Bloomington, IN)








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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:58:08 -0700
From: "dave holt" <brewdave at hotmail.com>
Subject: diacetyl reduction in ales

Recent discussions on 'house' flavor and diacetyl rests have peaked my 
interest.

This past year I've been trying to determine the cause of a funky raunchy 
flavor mid-taste in all my ales and lagers.  I've struggled to characterize 
the taste.  Tasted somewhat like beers with too much crystal malt and not 
quite like oxidation mixed together. Hard to troubleshoot when you are 
having trouble characterizing the flavor.  Some beers tasted this way before 
kegging, some after kegging, and others took awhile to develop.  What is 
this taste and where is it coming from?

Then the proverbial smack against the head happened.  I drank a Redhook ESB 
and I tasted the same flavor.  Diacetyl is my problem.  I was familiar with 
the butter, butterscotch flavor but not the funky raunchy taste I was 
perceiving.  I wish I hadn't stopped entering competitions and found this 
out earlier by judging.  (I quit not due to lack of success, but due to the 
local homebrew club failing to return scoresheets.  The reason several 
months ago I asked about MCAB, i.e. well run competitions)

I've searched the HBD archives and other sources on why diacetyl can become 
a problem in ales.  I'm scratching my head on why this is happening to all 
my beers, ales and lagers.

This is what I have gleaned so far on what may be the problem:

1.  Pedio infection
2.  Underpitching
3.  Yeast such as #1084 Irish
4.  Lack of O2 for the yeast
5.  Dry hopping with certain varieties such as Hallertauer and those   
related.
6.  Lowering the fermentation temperature on ales while actively fermenting. 
  Fermentation is arrested or slowed down.
7.  High fementation temperatures for ales.
8.  Lack of diacetyl rest for lagers.
9.  Poor fermentation temperature control
10. Not boiling with open or partially open kettle


What does the collective think is my source of diacetyl in my lagers and 
ales?  I've left out a lot of details, I can elaborate on my brewing 
process.  I also have in mind a few changes I should make.  I will post 
separately.

Thanks.

Dave Holt
brewing in AZ





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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:42:15 -0700
From: "dave holt" <brewdave at hotmail.com>
Subject: diacetyl reduction iin ales, part 2

The previous post I talked about diacetyl problems in all my beers.

I switched to brewing in No AZ (elevation 7800') from Phoenix several years 
ago.  My weekend house to escape the heat.  The water is good, well water 
from the National Forest.  The ambient temperature in the summer is 60-70 F 
(ale brewing).  In the winter, I keep the house at 48-50 F when I am not 
there (lager time).  The diacetyl problem has only appeared during the past 
year.  In the past year, I've made a few equipment changes.  Changed from a 
Zapap to a rectangular cooler and copper manifold.  Switched to 10 gallon 
batches in a converted keg.  Added an immersion chiller instead of an ice 
water bath for cooling.

These are the things I am considering changing in my brewery to get rid of 
the diacetyl problem:

1.  Start using the thermostat controlled refrigerator again.  No more 
ambient fermentations.
2.  Go back to using yeast starters.  Requires planning ahead and 
transporting the starter on a 150 mile trip.  I hope I don't get oxidation 
of the starter as a result.
3.  Add diacetyl rests for the lagers.
4.  Buy an aerator.  I've been swirling the cooled wort in the fermentor to 
oxygenate (aerate).  Is the high altitude hurting me?  Any recommendations 
on an aerator and stone?
5.  I dry hop all my ales and been dabbling with FWH.  I don't dry hop 
lagers.  I don't see this as being a problem.
6.  Does my water supply have pedio?  How do I know?
7.  Replace all hoses and plastic parts, possible pedio infection?
8.  Use caustic and acid wash every time on the kegs and fermentors.  Then 
iodophor.
9.  Is it possible that the mash/lauter tun cooler has a pedio infection?  
This seems to be the common thread in all my beers in the past year.  Do one 
beer with the Zapap or converted keg mashtun and no other changes.  Is it 
possible to get rid of pedio in plastic?
10.  I use various White Lab yeasts.  While some are more prone to be 
diacetyl producers, I wouldn't expect a problem with all of them.


I'm open to sugggestion or other probable sources.  I will start brewing 
again in Phoenix here soon.  It will be interesting if the problem follows 
me there.

After producing good beers for years, it is embarrassing/depressing to have 
only crap on tap now.  Can't stand the flavor.

Dave Holt
brewing in AZ







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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 23:06:39 GMT
From: Wil at thebeermanstore.com
Subject: RE:oxygenator stone, Alan and Bill W. W.W. points

In HBD 4182 Alan states
>Christ almighty, give it up on the Bill Wible argument
>Or, better yet, if you don't like what he has to say, ignore him

Umm, Alan, Perhaps you should take your own advice and do the same.

>Many of you may be familiar with the concept of Weight Watchers "point"

Andy
I did W.W. about a year ago and used the point value W.W.s gives for
"beer" and lost over 50 lbs drinking Homebrew. Its works!!!

>Then force carbonate with CO2.  No rocking of
>keg, etc. and you can accomplish desired carbonation in about 15 minutes.

If you have a kegging system then you have everything you need to
force carbonate your beer in less than 90 sec. (i'm talking ball lock
here but this will work as well with pin lock) Here is how I do it. I
crash cool my beer in my secondary fermentor to about 42 degrees and
rack into the keg. I put the black (Black=Beverage=out/Gray=Gas=in)
disconnect on the Co2 line at 30 PSI. turn on the gas and put the
black disconnect on the "out" post. (co2 is now going to the bottom of
the keg while its standing up right) I then purge the air by pulling
the pressure valve on the keg until I get two or three shots of
nothing but foam coming out of the valve. I wait until the bubbling
stops and then I rock the keg, standing upright for 60 to 70 sec
depending on the beer. I then stop rocking and wait for the bubbling
to stop again. I then store the beer at serving temp for a min. of 6
hours (over night is better but sometimes I'm in a rush) before
serving. I have been doing this for years and it works great. You will
have to fine tune times and PSI to your liking. I have one co2 bottle
set up only for force carbonating beer with the black beverage
disconnect always attached. Save your Cash, This works about the same
as with a stone.
Wil Kolb
The Beer Man
Plaza at East Cooper
607 B Johnnie Dodds Blvd
Mt. Pleasant SC 29464
843-971-0805
Fax 843-971-3084

www.thebeermanstore.com
Wil at thebeermanstore.com

God bless America!


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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 02:41:11 -0500
From: J & B Gallihue <jgallihue at comcast.net>
Subject: Weight Watchers points and Homebrew

In Homebrew Digest #4183
Jonathan ROyce responded to Andy Mikesell about Weight Watchers and Homebrew
points.

>I don't know about WW "points", but I think I can help >with the calorie
value.

Weight Watcher Ponts are calculated as follows -
POINTS(R) = (calories/50) + (fat grams/12) - (fiber grams/5)

So I guess its just calories/50 for beer.  No penalty for fat and no bonus
for fiber.

Keep in mind that, unlike virginity, you can earn weight watcher points back
 ... with exercise.  Enjoy your homebrew on the treadmill.

Joel Gallihue
Columbia, MD



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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 02:45:46 -0500
From: J & B Gallihue <jgallihue at comcast.net>
Subject: homebrewing w/ widget

* In HBD #4180 Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net> wrote:

"So I do believe a used widget is useful and that it's a common
misconception that the widget it somehow filled with gas aside from what
happens during pressurized bottling."

You need to add a drop of liquid nitrogen after you use the CP filler and
before you cap. (see
http://hbd.org/brewniversity/engineering/widget/page3.html)

Now, where to get that liquid nitrogen ... guess next time I get a wart
frozen off, I'll ask the dermatologist to lend me the tank for a few hours.

Cheers - Joel G.



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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 02:50:08 -0500
From: J & B Gallihue <jgallihue at comcast.net>
Subject: using horehound

Many moons ago someone named Noel asked:
"Does anybody have a recipe for horehound beer (alcoholic) or any taste
memories they can give me??"

Sorry, I wrote a message and forgot to send it.

The book Homebrewers Garden by Joe and Dennis Fisher recommends it as a
bittering hop and has many herb beer recipes.
In The Historical Companion to House-Brewing, La Pensee notes, "The common
German name "Berghopfen" (mountain hops) gives it all away."  He goes on to
say he thinks its too medicinal a flavor for him to use.

Here is my two cents:
Horehound is very bitter.  In fact, Horehound is very, very very bitter.
(It reminds me of someone I used to work with. ) Experiment with it by
preparing teas with it of various strengths and various boil times.  Add the
teas to a samples of cheap beer and see what proportions match. That way you
don't waste a day and a batch of homebrew.  You may wish to then brew a home
brew batch that has the specialty grains you think you may wish to use do
the tea experiment with that.  I theorize you need malt and residual
sweetness to balance the bitterness.  I also doubt you will want the
horehound in the boil for very long.  Horehound utilization rate is probably
instant.

Good luck and have fun.

Joel Gallihue.



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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:24:10 -0600
From: "Beer Phantom" <beer_phantom at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:  Counter-Pressure Bottle Filler Recommendations

Coming out of lurk mode, the Phantom, at long last, posts.

Kevin asks for recommendations on a counter pressure bottle filler:

"My ideal filler is easy to clean, easy to operate, has good throughput, and 
is not overly expensive."

My ideal filler cleans itself, fills bottles while I watch TV and is free.  
Haven't found one yet, but I'm still looking.

Stating the obvious,
The Beer Phantom







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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:30:51 -0500
From: "Jodie Davis" <JodieDavis at adelphia.net>
Subject: RE: Party Pig and staling


- ------------------------------
>After my disastrous misadventure in full-scale kegging some years ago
(one >I am not going to repeat!), I have been bottling my beer with good
results.
>However, since I've stepped up to 10-gallon batches, that means I have
>twice
>the beer to bottle.  I have been thinking about buying a couple of
Party
>Pigs and using them for some of the beer, and bottling the rest for
>competitions, gifts, and so forth.  My primary concern with the Party
Pig >is how fast the beer goes stale after the pig is "tapped".  I'm
afraid that >the last beer out of the pig might be getting stale by the
time I get to >drink it.  Is this a valid concern?  What is the
experience of Party Pig >users out there?

>Brian Schar
>Belmont, CA
>[2047.2, 273.8] Apparent Rennerian

Brian, we have a couple of Tap-a-Drafts which work very well for us. I
had considered the Party Pigs, but heard from multiple sources that the
TaD is a better system. I make 5 gallon batches, fill one TaD and bottle
the rest, giving me + or - 20 bottles to give away and enter in
competitions. You can check them out at www.morebeer.com.

Jodie Davis
Canton, GA



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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:39:36 -0600
From: Michael Owings <mikey at swampgas.com>
Subject: re: Forwarded: Beer Filtering

in HBD 4183 kcada wrote:
===============================
   Has anyone here ever used the beer plate filter supplied by
either Williams Brewing (www.williamsbrewing.com) or Grape
and Granary (www.grapeandgranary.com)?  (I'm assuming these
are the same product.)  If you have, how pleased were you with
the results?  I make small batches (3-5 gallon) quite
infrequently so it would be easier for me just to pitch the
filters after each use rather than trying to reuse a more pricey
filter like a Macron Filter or even a cartridge filter.
==============================
I use this filter with lagers on a regular basis and have had
excellent results. I'd strongly recommend using the 7um filters rather
than the 3um filters. The resulting beer is almost as bright as the
with the 3um filtration, but enough yeast to keep the beer "alive"
probably still make it through the filter. Filtration is also a bit
easier with the larger filters. You will not strip any "desirables"
out of a lager with this level of filtration, yet still get a
reasonably bright beer. 

Overall, a very nice product. I've tried both cartridge and plate
filters and found that I get much better results with the plate
filters, and get great results with coarser filtration.
====
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html


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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:03:56 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: yeast bank

Hi all,

Can someone pls send me the link on how to establish your own yeast 
bank ?
We have a huge yeast variety shortage in our club and I want to 
investigate how to solve this problem. Since we are in South Africa, 
it is expensive to import Wyeast and White labs all the time. 

Can anybody offer some tips and advice on how to do this ?

Best regards

Braam




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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:01:55 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: trip to Ireland

Jeff Gladish <JeffNGladish at ij.net> writes from Tampa, Florida:

>Sean McDonald writes, "on to another subject, I'm going to Ireland in a
>couple of weeks and am wondering if anyone can recommmend any decent pubs.
>I'll be in Shannon, Galway, Dublin, Cork, Blarney and Limmerick. Any
>suggestions would be appreciated."
>
>I highly recommend the Good Beer Guide, a book published annually by the
>CAMRA people.

Great book.  Only trouble is, it only covers the UK - England, Wales, 
Scotland, Northern Ireland, Channel Islands and Isle of Man.  Not the 
Republic of Ireland, where the cities Sean mentions are.

You won't be going pubs in most of these cities for real ale (Dublin 
is one exception).  I found that the most interesting thing beer wise 
was comparing the three stouts - Guinness, Murphy's and Beamish, the 
latter two brewed in Cork and available mostly only in the south and 
southwest.  I preferred Murphy's, myself.  The stouts are now being 
served colder than ever, and they have separate taps for actually 
cold Guinness, which is certainly to be avoided.  The ales are all 
from the big breweries and are not that special - nitro served and 
soft and somewhat buttery.

The real attraction in the pubs, for my money, is the local live 
music, which is often very informal.  Our favorite was a pub in 
Doolin near the Cliffs of Mohr whose name I've forgotten (but it's 
across from the post office and a B&B called Churchill's).  A group 
of three or four young people just came in to the empty chairs that 
everyone apparently knew was for them, got out their instruments, and 
started playing wonderful Irish music.  The fiddle player was a 
beautiful, dark Irish colleen.  I'm sure she is the reason that the 
Guinness there tasted like the nectar of the gods.

There are hundreds of little pubs like this, I am sure, that have 
local musicians that play for pints and a few punts.  This was just 
one we found that was the best of our two week trip four years ago. 
Ask the locals and don't be afraid to check out little rural pubs. 
They can be fun too.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:21:15 -0500
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Re:  Temperature Probe Placement

David says that I stated that there was "no point" in using a bypass loop.
That's not what I said.  What I said was that I never understood it.  That
points to my ignorance, not a blanket statement about an approach to brewery
design.   I also made no distinction between a RIMS system and a HERMS
system.  The basic operation of both is the same; recirculation with a pump
and heat added at controlled intervals along the way.  The 10,000+
variations beyond that are just details based on homebrewer preference.
Just for reference, my system is HERMS based.

In David's system, his controller is not controlling a heat source, it is
controlling valves.  To control the temperature of the heat source requires
either another temperature controller and probe, or careful manual
manipulation using a thermometer.  For David's system, the ideal situation
would be for the wort exiting the coil to be exactly the right temperature.
If that happened, then the valves would never have to be switched and the
system could recirculate the entire time through the coil.  In a case like
this, the mash temperature would be constant.  But, as David pointed out,
occasionally, the PID cycles, which bypasses the heat altogether.  This
means that there is a temperature fluctuation in the recirculated wort over
the mash duration, which is to be expected because the recirculated wort is
traveling through the grain bed in alternately heated and unheated layers.
If the probe was placed so that it had control over the actual heat imparted
to the wort as measured by the coil outlet, then the wort would travel
through the grain bed at a constant temperature (or at least a very narrow
range).  The way I see it (just an opinion here), the controller seems to be
at least one level removed from the heating process.  The brewer is in
control of the heat, and the controller just bypasses the brewer if
necessary.

Next, Mark says:

"I have placed my temperature probe at the mash tun outlet on my system
because the temperature of the mash is what I want to control. I also have a
dial thermometer at the heater outlet."

I don't get it.  If the PID is tuned and works perfectly where it is, then
why is there a thermometer at the heater outlet?  Is that so you can be
absolutely sure that the wort is not being overheated?  If that is the case,
then why not just put the probe there?  Yes, you want to control overall
mash temperature.  But in a recirculating system, the mash is a dynamic
system, not a static system.  New wort is being introduced constantly and
old wort is leaving at the same rate.  If the wort exiting the coil is at
the right temperature, then all you have to do is circulate all of the wort
and the whole mash is where you want it.  The entire wort has to be
circulated to effect a temperature change regardless of the probe placement.
This assumes that there is no stirring, which, in the case of a
recirculating system is unnecessary and undoes all of the benefits of
prolonged recirculation.

In summary, a PID does get to "know" a particular system during the tuning
process.  I just think a lot of error, or at least potential error, can be
eliminated by placing the probe at the heater exit.  There is a lot less
iteration on the part of the PID logic to anticipate the systems response to
a signal for heat which can be affected by things like ambient temperature
(winter vs summer brewing), flow rates due to varying grain crushes or
varying mash thickness, or varying batch sizes.  By placing the probe at the
heater outlet, almost all of these variables are eliminated and the PID is
seeing a more rapid and direct reading of the process temperature,
completely  independent of heat loss in the system, flow rate, or batch
size.  Just an opinion to be considered along with all the rest.  If your
system works for you, great, don't change a thing.  If you're planning a
system, give it some thought and consider all the options based on what
makes sense to you as a brewer.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com

"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but not in practice".




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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:13:47 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: yeast nutrient in yeast starter

I wrote:

>50 grams of dry extract in a liter of water will give about 1.019.
>This is what Dan McConnell of the late Yeast Culture Kit Co.
>recommended, along with 1/6 tsp yeast nutrient.

That should be 1/16 teaspoon yeast nutrient.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:51:24 -0500
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: caloric value of beer

See <http://hbd.org/ensmingr/>, which also gives the estimated
caloric content of ~1000 commercial beers.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
http://hbd.org/ensmingr




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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:57:57 -0500
From: "Ridgely, William" <Ridgely at cber.FDA.gov>
Subject: MCAB-V Thanks to Lallemand, Inc

I would like to take the opportunity to thank the good folks at Lallemand,
Inc for their sponsorship of the Best of Show prize for the 5th Annual
Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing (MCAB-V), hosted by Brewers United
for Real Potables on Feb 7-8 in Washington, DC. The individuals most
responsible for the creation of the magnificent Lallemand Cup were Jean
Chagnon, Gordon Specht, and Sigrid Gertsen-Briand.

Thanks also to Rob Moline, who helped coordinate Lallemand's sponsorship of
the award.

As you all know, MCAB represents a true grass roots effort to recognize and
celebrate the best homebrewed beers and brewers in North America. Without
the support of sponsors like Lallemand, MCAB could not continue to be the
premier forum for recognizing excellence and achievement among amateur
brewers.

For those who missed the event, some excellent photos have been posted on
photographer John Esparolini's website, including a good closeup photo of
the Lallemand Cup. You can view the photos at
http://www.pbase.com/sloopjohne/mcab5_pics. Results of the competition have
been posted on the MCAB-V website at http://burp.org/mcab5.

I wish Lallemand every success in the future, and I hope they continue to
support MCAB as it moves into its 6th year.

Cheers to all!

Bill Ridgely
MCAB-V Organizer


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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:26:50 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: RE: temp probe placement

I have read with interest the range of positions posted with regard to RIMS 
temperature probe placement, and I would like to suggest we consider an 
analogous situation with which we are all familiar - the home heating 
system.  Where is your thermostat located?  Is it in the output air or 
water stream of your furnace, or is it in a room of your house?

I have hot air heat, and my furnace fan runs all the time, providing 
constant air recirculation.  With the thermostat set at 70, the furnace 
exit air temperature is 140 degrees when the burners are running.  My 
thermostat is in the dining room where it gets a reasonable sample of the 
actual house temperature.

If I were to move my thermostat to sense the furnace exit air stream, the 
gas burners would only get to run for a few seconds before the exit air 
reached 70 degrees and the thermostat shut off the gas.  After a short 
time, cooler air returning to the furnace from the house would cause the 
thermostat to restart the burners for another short spurt.  So on the 
average, the exit air temperature would hold pretty close to 70.  How well 
do you think a steady supply of 70 degree air would keep my house at 70 
when the outside air temperature is 20?  I can assure you, my insulation is 
nowhere near that good.

Monitoring the exit wort temperature from an electric RIMS heating chamber 
is needed to prevent scorching the wort.  But the relationship of that 
temperature to the temperature of the mash is subject to several variables, 
and it will be different for each layout.

My mash tun is an uninsulated half-barrel keg.  Heat is lost from all 
surfaces so long as the mash is hotter than the room air, and the only way 
to replace that heat is to recirculate heated wort that is hotter than the 
desired mash temperature.  This hotter wort mixes with the cooled wort in 
the tun to return the mash to the desired temperature.  A temperature probe 
in the mash causes the controller to turn on the heat when the mash 
temperature drops a degree below the desired setpoint, and then turn it off 
when the setpoint is reached.  I have tested the effectiveness of this 
arrangement using thermometers stuck in various parts of the mash, and I 
have satisfied myself that the temperature holds quite well within a degree 
or two.

In order for this scheme to work well, recirculation flow must be high 
enough to produce rapid and even mixing of the heated wort with that in the 
tun.  Otherwise, local hot-spots will occur when the heat is on.  Some 
amount of this is unavoidable in a practical system, where the flow must be 
low enough to avoid either churning the mash or compacting it, whichever 
happens first.  But with adequate flow, even temperature distribution is 
quickly achieved once the heat goes off.

Dave in Bel Air, MD



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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:38:21 -0600
From: DHinrichs at Quannon.com
Subject: Re: Question on grain utilization/ LHBS plug


"Andy Mikesell" <andy_mikesell at yahoo.com> writes from Westwood, MA seeks to
increase his efficiencey, many have posted some very good suggestions. Often
the crush is mentioned to which Jeff Renner replied

jeff>How was the crush?  Was the grain precrushed by Northern Brewer?  If 
jeff>so, I am sure it was a proper crush.  If not, perhaps you did not 
jeff>crush it fine enough.  This is a common cause of low efficiency.

Just to plug my LHBS and sponsor of this fine digest, Northern Brewer, they
use a JSP Malt Mill, nicely motorized BTW. I typically get extraction rates
in the 80+% range for 10 gallon batches, mid 70% with 5 gallon batches.

 *******************************************************
* Dave Hinrichs          E-Mail: dhinrichs at quannon.com *
* Quannon CAD Systems, Inc.      Voice: (952) 935-3367 *
* 6101 Baker Road, Suite 204       FAX: (952) 935-0409 *
* Minnetonka, MN 55345                                 *
*                http://www.quannon.com/               *
********************************************************



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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:00:28 -0500
From: "Jones, Steve (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Calorie calculator


This is the first time I've seen Glen Tinseth's calculator.

I developed mine based on a spreadsheet developed by Stephen Klump of
Stroh's Brewery, based on equations devised by James Hackbarth (also of
Stroh's) in March, 1999 (updated 12/01). This spreadsheet is available on
the Ann Arbor Brewer's Guild website, and I asked for and received
permission to adapt the spreadsheet into an online javascript calculator. I
can't vouch for whether or not their calculations are correct, but my
javascript implementation yields the same figures (within a few hundredth's)
that the spreadsheet does. Being employed by a big brewery, I figure that
these two guys must know what they were doing.

Anyway, Jonathon's example for a 5% 1.016 FG beer (~1.054 OG) for 330 ml
(~11.16 oz) is 113.5 calories, or ~122.1 for 12 oz.  Both mine & Glen's
figure 180 calories per 12 oz.

And if anyone needs to use it, there is also a rennerian coordinates
calculator on my site at http://hbd.org/franklin/public_html/rc.html. This
one was created by Brian Levetzow, and is also on the HBD site.


Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN; State of Franklin Homebrewers
http://hbd.org/franklin
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:23:26 -0500
From: "Andy Mikesell" <andy_mikesell at yahoo.com>
Subject: Homebrew calorie summary information

WOW!  I received a number of response to my question regarding homebrew
caloric calculation, so I thought a re-post of this information would be
beneficial to everyone:

 - Johnathn Royce provided a series of formulas to calculate HBD calories,
posted in HBD 4183.

 - Jeff Renner also provided a few links and calculators in HBD 4183

 - Glenn Tinseth" provided the following calculator link:
http://www.realbeer.com/hops/kcalc_js.html

Steve Jones provided this link which also contains other excellent
calculators: http://hbd.org/franklin/public_html/tools.html.

Nils Hedglin provided this link for Brand comparison:
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/alcohol/alcohol_info1.shtml with the caveat
of taking the caloric values & multiply by 3.5 for 12 oz or 4.75 for a 16
oz.

Peter A. Ensminger provided this estimator and beer comparison link:
http://hbd.org/ensmingr/

Thanks again to everyone who responded!
- ------------------------------------
Andrew Mikesell
Westwood, MA



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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:25:57 -0500
From: "Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Screw Top capping..

I am going to bottle a 12-pack of my next batch in a
few different screw tops and compare the results.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?  Anyone successfully
use screw-top?
 -!-------

Once, I accidentally capped about 3 (I think..) screw top bottles. Didn't
even realize it until it came time to open 'em.. and then I realised they
were screw tops, even though I opened them with a regular opener (I didn't
know they were screw tops, mind you.. so I didn't attempt to unscrew
them..). I don't know if they would have opened properly with a twist of the
cap, but they did work fine when I popped 'em upen with the bottle opener.
So, for whatever that's worth.. it worked a few times, anyway.

Mike

Please note my new email address:

meyre at sbcglobal.net



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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 22:40:52 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Stephen=20Hetrick?= <invalid76 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Req: Water Profile in Columbus, OH

I just moved into the Columbus City limits and was
wondering if anyone could post the water profile?  If
it makes any difference I live off 161 and 71.

Greg Hetrick
Columbus, OH



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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:24:31 -0800
From: "Ross" <BurningBrite at charter.net>
Subject: Weight Watchers, USDA, And Beer

Here is a rough consolidation of information discovered during various
Google searches:

Beer, non-alcoholic - 1 can or bottle (12 fl. oz.)
USDA did not list average calories; WWtchrs = 1 pt

Beer, light - 1 can or bottle (12 fl. oz.)
USDA says average 100 calories; WWtchrs = 2 pts

Beer, regular - 1 can or bottle (12 fl. oz.)
USDA says average 150 calories; WWtchrs = 3 pts


I think it is important to consider these as bounding the lower- to
mid-range for typical beers.  I suspect non-alcoholic beer probably defines
the lower end of the beer/calorie scale, whereas a Belgian trippel or
barleywine might exceed the regular beer values (i.e., it may be 3.5 or 4 WW
pts).  It appears the relationship is essentially linear (looks like about
50 calories per point) so you could probably scale up or down for calories
and volume.  Meanwhile, tell your wife "RDWHAHB", and assume 3 pts for a
bottle of most homebrewed ales.

Ross Potter



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---