---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  RE: Thinking about a Kolsch (Andrew Nix)
  The Bill Wible Attacks (Steve Hill)
  Re:  Question on grain utilization (Teresa Knezek)
  RE: How Long will crushed grain last? ("Dan Gross")
  Regarding Passivation of Stainless Steel ("Lou King")
  keg carbonation. (stone) (Wendy & Reuben Filsell)
  Re: Mixing finishing sugar (Kevin White)
  RE: temp probe placement (David Passaretti)
  re: How Long will crushed grain last? (Jonathan ROyce)
  Disposing of Brewery Waste Water ("Bridges, Scott")
  Mixing in priming sugar (JE)" <JESteinbrunner at dow.com>
  Counter-Pressure Bottle Filler Recommendations (Kevin White)
  re: Question on grain utilization (Jonathan ROyce)
  re: Weight Watchers and Homebrew points (Jonathan ROyce)
  Re: less sour geuze (Michael Hartsock)
  RE: Thinking about a Kolsch ("John B. Doherty")
  mixing priming sugar (Roy Roberts)
  4k systems and NHC ("Doug Hurst")
  re: trip to Ireland (Jeff & Ellen)
  Re: How Long will crushed grain last? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Question on grain utilization (Jeff Renner)
  Free Advice (AJ)
  Re: DIMS (Drop In Manifold System) (Mark Garthwaite)
  Re: Water ("Martin Brungard")
  Kolsch & How long to keep crushed malt (Leo Vitt)
  calculating homebrew calories (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Disposing of Brewery Waste Water (Denny Conn)
  Re:  RIMS Design (Mark Alfaro)
  RE: Thinking about a Kolsch ("Houseman, David L")
  RE: Mixing finishing sugar ("Houseman, David L")
  Forwarded: Beer Filtering (ksc58)
  RE: calculating homebrew calories (Jeff Renner)
  Mixing finishing sugar ("Romanowsky, Paul")
  FW: RE: Weight Watchers and Homebrew points (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>


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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 23:59:30 -0500
From: Andrew Nix <anix at vt.edu>
Subject: RE: Thinking about a Kolsch

Darrell Leavitt writes:

I am thinking about a Kolsch, using WL German Ald/Kolsch yeast...and have
looked at Papazian's HOMEBREWERS GOLD, p 180-181, description of
Stoddard's Kolsch,...and wonder...they have no diacetyl rest.  Is that not
needed for this yeast/ this style?

I am basically following the description in Papazian,...adding some fresh
lager yeast as it goes into secondary...new to me...but wonder, is a
diacetyl rest called for?

Kolsch is not a lager, it is a German ale, just like Alt.  Both are top 
fermenting yeast fermented at temperatures lower than most ale yeasts, and 
neither one requires a diacetyl rest.  From my experience with that yeast, 
you will get a sulfury smell after primary, but lagering for a few weeks 
gets rid of this.  Between primary and lagering, a diacetyl rest is not needed.

Drewmeister
Andrew Nix
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Virginia Tech
anix at vt.edu
http://www.vt.edu:10021/A/anix



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 00:29:33 -0500
From: Steve Hill <stevehill at comcast.net>
Subject: The Bill Wible Attacks

Bill Wible,

You have been the blunt of a lot of punishment lately.  You should be
commended for how well you take it.  My only question is this, Do you own a
Homebrew Supply Store?  Because seriously, it all ads up!  Liquid yeast and
top of the line equipment is all stuff a person who owns a store would
promote.

What do you do?

and if you don't answer, maybe the HBD will do an inspection and will make
you surrender all your equipment to us!

Steve




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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 21:09:05 -0900
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com>
Subject: Re:  Question on grain utilization

At 12:23 AM -0500 2/27/03, Andy Mikesell wrote:
>Hi all -
>
>I've had lower than expected OG readings from my last 4 all grain brews, so
>I took a few steps to address.

Had that problem myself on my first few grain batches. The single 
biggest difference any one change made in the end was changing the 
settings on my grain mill to get a better crush. Some people run 
their grain through their mills twice, if the mill itself is not 
adjustable.

I went from averaging 55-60% efficiency to brewing an 80%+ efficient 
batch, and a ~70% batch after that. Big difference. I'll be brewing 
again this weekend, and will see if the higher efficiencies are 
repeated again.

So try crushing your grain twice through the mill, and see what 
happens. At worst you'll waste a little time doing the second 
milling, but at best you may solve your problem. :-)
- -- 
::Teresa : Two Rivers, Alaska::
[2849, 325] Apparent Rennerian

"It has been my experience that folks who
have no vices have very few virtues."
                      -- Abraham Lincoln


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 05:49:17 -0500
From: "Dan Gross" <degross at starpower.net>
Subject: RE: How Long will crushed grain last?

Steve Tighe asks about using crushed grain that is a week old.

Steve,
I don't think you will notice any difference in the taste of your finished
beer, especially since it looks like you are making something rather dark
and not a pilsner.  I believe the major disadvantage of letting crushed
grain stand around for a period of time would be an increase in moisture
content which could affect extraction rate. I believe you have had a lot of
rain in your area recently, but if the grain is sealed up well it shouldn't
be a problem.
I know a brewpub brewer who gets all of his grain precrushed in 50lb bags
from the malting company and he makes some outstanding beer with it.  I am
sure that the grain is very fresh when he receives it and that he is careful
to use it quickly, but there doesn't seem to be any problem with it.

Dan Gross
Olney, MD



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 05:51:01 -0500
From: "Lou King" <lking at pobox.com>
Subject: Regarding Passivation of Stainless Steel

John -

You said you told Dion it would take a couple of weeks to passivate the
SS but that you were wrong.  However, I didn't see in your correction
how long it would actually take.  Does "spontaneously" mean minutes, a
couple of days, ...?

Thanks, 

Lou King
http://www.lousbrews.com
Ijamsville, MD

====
John Palmer said:

* Clean stainless steel will passivate itself spontaneously from the 
air.  (Years ago I told Dion it would take a couple weeks. I was wrong.)
But 
it must be CLEAN, i.e., no dirt, no oil, no heat tint, no foreign 
metals, no free iron from tooling.
	:
Any questions?



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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:54:05 +0800
From: Wendy & Reuben Filsell <filsell at myplace.net.au>
Subject: keg carbonation. (stone)



> From: homebrew-request@hbd.org (Request Address Only - No Articles)
> Reply-To: homebrew at hbd.org (Posting Address Only - No Requests)
> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 00:26:25 -0500
> To: homebrew at hbd.org
> Subject: Homebrew Digest #4182 (February 27, 2003)
> 
> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:02:16 -0500
> From: "Romanowsky, Paul" <paul.romanowsky at siemens.com>
> Subject: Carbonating in soda keg with oxygenator stone
> 
> I'm looking at "THE STONE" from Gulfstream.  It's 5/8" OD, 2" long with hose
> barb and 1 Micron porosity.  They state that you can attach it to your GAS
> input tube on the soda keg with a length of vinyl tubing.  The stone resets
> on the bottom of the keg.  Then force carbonate with CO2.  No rocking of
> keg, etc. and you can accomplish desired carbonation in about 15 minutes.
> Seems like a great idea.  Anyone out there currently doing this?  How about
> some feedback as to pros and cons.  Will be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in
> advance.
> 
> Paul Romanowsky
> Harleysville, PA

Paul I have used this method for a while and it works a treat.
downsides are that you have to buy several stones or degas the keg, get the
stone out and re-gas. I have several stones but occasionally I need to get
one out of a part filled keg.
It's not really a big deal and goes something like this.
Put a rubber glove on the hand that is delving into the keg and dip it in
your sanitiser, gently de-gas the keg, rip the lid off grab the stone
,re-seal and re-gas. you don't lose any carbonation and the outgassing of
the beer should keep any bugs out.
However opening a keg is a risk and I try and avoid doing it until at least
1/4 has been used to avoid touching the beer.
Cheers,
Reuben
W.A.



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 08:07:11 -0500
From: Kevin White <kwhite at bcpl.net>
Subject: Re: Mixing finishing sugar

Bruce Bush asks,

 >Is there a foolproof way of
 >mixing in the finishing sugar syrup?

Try putting the primimg solution in the bottling vessel before 
racking in the beer. This will better disperse the priming 
solution throughout the beer, which will give you more consistent 
carbonation, and avoids stirring which will cause oxidation problems.

Kevin White
Columbia, MD



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 05:10:05 -0800 (PST)
From: David Passaretti <dpassaretti at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: temp probe placement

Someone mentioned that there is no point in using a
bypass loop and in mash systems and that the the probe
needs to be close to the heat source. I use a HERMS
with a PID controller and two solenoid valves in the
flow loop.  When the PID wants to add heat it opens
one valve and closes the other to send wort through
the heating coil in the HLT, when no heat is needed
the valves are in the oppsite configuration and the
the wort flows through the bypass.  With the HLT is 
only 5-10 degrees above the mash temp there is no
concern for overheating, denaturing, or hot spots and
the wort can continue to recirc the entire time to
ensure even grain bed temps.  My RTD is located nera
the bottom of the tun, almost as far away from the
heat source as possible (by convenience not design). 
This does build a large lag time into the system, but
then again that is the entire point of using a PID
controller. They are designed for accurate
temeperature control when the system has a long lag
time and and/or a large heat sources (as is the case
with a HLT). Using the autotune feature, my controller
set its own values and now keeps temperature within 1F
with rapid ramp times if needed, continous
recirculation, and no concern for overheating. Bypass
loops and probe placement my be of concern in RIMS or
in systems without PID control but not in a properly
built and tuned HERMS.

David Passaretti 



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 04:46:13 -0800
From: Jonathan ROyce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: re: How Long will crushed grain last?

Steve Tighe wonders if crushed grain will last a week and if his starter 
will still be good to go on Thursday or Saturday.

I'm sure your going to hear everything from a resounding YES to a condemning NO 
on both points, but WTH, I'll chime in.

I crush my grains at the LHBS and (occassionally) I buy grain via the internet 
and have the vendor crush it for me. In either case, I store it in plastic bags 
and throw the plastic bags in a sealable rubbermaid container for good measure. 
I've never had a problem with a week or a week and half of storage. (In fact, 
when I buy via the internet, the grains are usually in transit for a week 
anyway.) 

I think a pretty good comparison is coffee. Surely when you grind your own 
beans every morning, the aroma is stronger than when you open your can of 
Folgers. However, do you really notice a difference in the taste of the BREWED 
coffee? I don't think I could tell the difference in a blind taste test. I'm 
sure that true "connoisseurs" *claim* that they can. Some of those probably 
even can.

As for the starter, you could take it out of the fridge, decant the liquid and 
let it warm up to room temp while you brew, then pitch it. Or do steps 1-3 the 
day before, add some wort and let it take off again, then pitch it on brew day. 
IME, you'll probably get a quicker start if you get it fermenting again (option 
2), but even if you don't, you'll probably have fermentation within 8 hours or 
so. Keep in mind that option 2 adds one more chance of infection, so you'll 
have to weigh the risk and reward and decide for yourself.

HTH,
Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 08:10:49 -0500
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: Disposing of Brewery Waste Water


>From Stuart:

>A question for rural brewers,
>
>My family and I are preparing to move to a rural area.  Instead of a 
>sewer line to dispose of waste water and sanitizing agents (I use 
>Star-San, which is advertised to be environmentally friendly), it will 
>go into the septic system.
>
>How much damage will this do to a septic system or the resident 
>micro-beasties?  Should I find another way to dispose of the sanitizer?  
>How do you deal with this?

Stuart,
This question comes up every now and then.  My recollection from past
discussions (you may want to read through the archives for more info), is
that there is not generally thought to be a problem.  I can only speak from
my personal experience of brewing with a septic system for the last 10 years
or so.  Although I have brewed infrequently over the last several years, for
the first I 5-6 yrs I brewed very often.  I have had no problems whatsoever,
so I can only assume that there is no significant impact on the septic
system.  FYI all gray water also goes down the drain as well.  I would
expect to have more impact from the volume of laundry/dishwasher detergent,
etc, than from the small amount of brewing waste water.

Scott
Brewing in Columbia, SC



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 08:16:32 -0500
From: "Steinbrunner, Jim (JE)" <JESteinbrunner at dow.com>
Subject: Mixing in priming sugar

Bruce Bush asked:
<Is there a foolproof way of mixing in the finishing sugar syrup?>

I do something similar to this, and it works for me.

http://hbd.org/brewery/library/NoTeBot1296.html

I did have a problem once, where the tube came off the spigot and an 
unknown amount of beer and sugar spilled on the floor. The 
carbonation level wound up a little low. Live & learn.

Jim Steinbrunner
Midland, MI


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 08:27:37 -0500
From: Kevin White <kwhite at bcpl.net>
Subject: Counter-Pressure Bottle Filler Recommendations

Having recently begun kegging my beer, I now need a 
counter-pressure bottle filler. My ideal filler is easy to clean, 
easy to operate, has good throughput, and is not overly 
expensive. Any recommendations from the experienced keggers?

Private responses OK; I'll post a summary.

Thanks,

Kevin White
Columbia, MD



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 05:40:47 -0800
From: Jonathan ROyce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: re: Question on grain utilization

Andy Mikesell asks about grain utilization:

I've had some similar issues with my partial mashes and here's what I've been 
paying attention to, with some success:

1) The crush. I suspect that this is my biggest problem. After my sparges, I 
always chew a bit of grist to see if it is sweet. Two times ago, it wasn't--my 
extraction was great. Last time (a hefeweizen) it was sweet. My efficiency was 
back down around 60%. It seems that especially recipes with small grains (like 
wheat malt) are problematic. I am going to start double milling my grains to 
see if things improve.

2) Do a mash out. My LHBS owner suggested this. It may be helping, but it 
certainly can't hurt. The theory is that the hotter liquid is less viscous and 
the sugars are more easily extracted. 

3) Make sure you sparge to completion. I have done a batch where I got lazy and 
rather than measure the gravity of the exiting wort and stopping around 1.010, 
I just went by a volume that "felt right". In fact, it wasn't right and I 
didn't extract everything that I should have.

As for adjusting the grain bill, don't adjust by subtracting your actual 
efficiency from the expected and then increasing the amount of grain by that 
percentage. Instead, calculate the ratio of expected to actual efficiency and 
increase the grain bill by that proportion. In your case, 0.700/0.585 = 1.197, 
so you should use approx 1 lb 3 oz of grain for every lb (0.197 lbs = 3.15 oz) 
required by the recipe.

HTH,
Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 06:00:17 -0800
From: Jonathan ROyce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: re: Weight Watchers and Homebrew points

Andy Mikesell asks about Weight Watchers and Homebrew points:

I don't know about WW "points", but I think I can help with the calorie value. 
You'll need to data points: FG and ABV (or OG, from which you can calculate 
ABV). For an example, I'm assuming 5% ABV and FG = 1.016

Now, let's take the following constants:

ABV to ABW, multiply by 0.8
calories/gram carbohydrate = 4
calories/gram alcohol = 7

Two assumptions:
(1) specific gravity is the same as density (which should be pretty accurate)
(2) all excess carbohydrate is digestible by the human body (down to S.G. = 
1.000)

So, let's say we have a 330 ml volume of beer. It weighs:

330 ml * 1.016 = 335.3 grams

If all of the weight above that of water & alcohol is carb, there's:

335.3 grams - 330 grams = 5.3 grams carb

The alcohol by weight is:

330 ml * 0.05 * 0.8 = 13.2 grams alcohol

So the caloric content is:

(5.3 grams carb)(4 cal/gram) + (13.2 grams alcohol)(7 cal/gram) = 113.5 calories

That's probably a pretty good estimate. Any out there have any suggestions for 
improvement?

Hopefully weight watchers has a conversion of calories to points? I'm not sure 
how that system works.

HTH,
Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 06:15:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: less sour geuze

regarding the sour flavors fading over time:

I have always understood that sour flavors (like many
others) will mellow over time.

mike

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 06:19:33 -0800 (PST)
From: "John B. Doherty" <dohertybrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Thinking about a Kolsch

Darrell,
I often find myself thinking about Koelsch!  :)

First, to answer your immediate question, I have never done a diacetyl rest for
a Koelsch.  I ferment my Koelsch under 65F, preferably at 60-62F, well
oxygenated with a large starter.  I have more experience with Wyeast 2565 than
with White Labs (029 is it?) (6 Koelsch + 3 Alts with Wyeast, 1 Koelsch and 1
Alt with White Labs) and when tasting at racking I've never detected diacetyl
in any batch.  Before I forget, do yourself a favor and brew an altbier a
couple of weeks after the Koelsch, re-using the yeast again at 60-62F.  You'll
want to cold lager both these styles for 6 weeks or so near 32F.  I lager in
one corny (with 1" cut from the liquid diptube) then transfer with CO2 to
another corny with a Liquid-Liquid jumper line I've made.  Force carbonate, and
you'll have a crystal clear keg you can bring places without fear of it getting
un-Koelsch like from stirred up sediment.

Ok, About your grain bill - one problem, one concern, and one suggestion:
The problem - I wouldn't use Munich Malt in a Koelsch, and if I did, it
wouldn't be at 12.5%.  I'd maybe throw in 1/4# of Munich for a maltiness
contribution, but Koelsch doesn't need much maltiness, and what malt character
it does have should be quite soft.  I use 1/4# of carapils (carafoam, carahell
 - The lowest color caramalt I can get) myself.  Save the Munich Malt for an all
Munich Malt Altbier!

The concern - when you say 2-row, I'm hoping that you mean a nice continental
2-row pilsner type malt with a very low color (2L-2.5L).  Anything darker will
make an uncharacteristically "dark" Koelsch.

The suggestion - I'd up the wheat content just a little bit.  I've optimized my
Koelsch recipe at 15-16% wheat malt. At MCAB5 two weeks ago, we got to sample
some of brewer Bill Madden's (of Capitol Brewing Company in D.C.) GABF Gold
winning Koelsch, which was fabulous (although a touch over carbonated at
first).  Bill's preferred wheat malt content is 18%.  Don't get me wrong, 12.5%
will make an excellent Koelsch (I've brewed with as low as 10% and as high as
20%), but you won't be disappointed with a little more wheat.

And regarding the mash - I'd recommend skimming Warner's Classic Beer Styles
Koelsch book and trying a multi-step mash (if your system allows it).  I seem
to recall using a quick "high end" protein rest, infusing to Beta, infusing to
Alpha, and infusing/heating (SS mash tun) to mash-out.  Oh, and start the mash
thin - 1.5 quarts/# and through the infusions, you'll end up closer to 2.5
quarts/# in the end.

Keep your boil short (60-75min) and use a light hand with the hops (low alpha
varieties).  I like Hersbrucker, Tettnang, Spalt, and Perle, (those last 2 are
often mid-alpha 6-8%AA) and tend to vary the variety from batch to batch.  I
don't much care for Saaz in my Koelsch, especially for late additions, since to
me Saaz really stands out and is reminiscent of a Czech beer.  But to each
their own.

Have fun brewing this one - Koelsch is such a wonderful style!  (and about as
far from an Eisbock as you can get)  :)

Cheers,

John Doherty
Lakeville, MA

===========================================================
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:09:03 -0500, darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu wrote:
Subject: Thinking about a Kolsch

I am thinking about a Kolsch, using WL German Ald/Kolsch yeast...and have 
looked at Papazian's HOMEBREWERS GOLD, p 180-181, description of 
Stoddard's Kolsch,...and wonder...they have no diacetyl rest.  Is that not 
needed for this yeast/ this style?  

The plan is for 6 lb 2 row
                1 lb wheat
                1 lb Munich

Single stage infusion at 150F for 60

I am basically following the description in Papazian,...adding some fresh 
lager yeast as it goes into secondary...new to me...but wonder, is a 
diacetyl rest called for?

 ..Darrell



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 06:45:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Roberts <psilosome at yahoo.com>
Subject: mixing priming sugar

Bruce Bush asks about uneven mixing of priming
(finishing) sugar.  About two years ago I found a nice
method on someone's homebrew site (sorry no reference)
which I use every time I bottle.  It does require a
bottling bucket (I use my plastic hot liquor tank) but
otherwise is very simple.

The priming sugar is boiled in a small volume of water
to sanitize, then put in the sanitized bottling bucket
with sanitized racking tube and cane attached. Allow
the liquid to flow into the tube/cane and then close
the spigot to trap the liquid. Then lower the bottling
bucket and put the racking cane into the fermentor. 
When the spigot is opened the sugar solution will fall
into the bucket and start the siphoning process.  In
my experience this gives very even mixing.

Roy R.
District of Columbia



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 08:57:15 -0600
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: 4k systems and NHC

I hate beating a dead horse but I was just looking at the rules and regs
for the National Hombrew Competition and there's an entry catagory #29
called New Entrants.  What's the deal with this category?  Is this not
what B*** W**** is looking for?  I suppose you could still use a 4k
system to brew beer entered in that category, but I suspect that most
people who have never entered the NHC aren't using 4k systems.

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[215, 264.5] Apparent Rennerian
I brew the beer I drink.


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 09:56:58 -0500
From: Jeff & Ellen <JeffNGladish at ij.net>
Subject: re: trip to Ireland

Sean McDonald writes, "on to another subject, I'm going to Ireland in a 
couple of weeks and am wondering if anyone can recommmend any decent pubs. 
I'll be in Shannon, Galway, Dublin, Cork, Blarney and Limmerick. Any 
suggestions would be appreciated."

I highly recommend the Good Beer Guide, a book published annually by the 
CAMRA people.

Jeff Gladish, Tampa, FL



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:01:53 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: How Long will crushed grain last?

Steve Tighe <steve_tighe at yahoo.com> writes from Berkeley CA:

>Will crushed grain still be good a week later?

No problem unless you've really mistreated it.  Malt companies 
actually sell their malt precrushed.  It certainly won't keep as long 
as whole malt, but kept cool and dry, it should keep weeks.

>Incidentally I have my SF Lager yeast sitting in the
>fridge after having fermented out in a one-quart
>starter. Will this still be good to go on Thursday or
>Saturday, or should I decant the beer and add another
>quart of wort a day or two beforehand?

Always a good idea to pitch more yeast rather than less (within 
reason), and recently fed yeast, so I'd say decant and feed.  If you 
give it some low gravity wort, it will ferment out quickly and be 
ready to decant again, so you aren't pitching spent starter into your 
precious wort.

50 grams of dry extract in a liter of water will give about 1.019. 
This is what Dan McConnell of the late Yeast Culture Kit Co. 
recommended, along with 1/6 tsp yeast nutrient.  This works well for 
me.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:26:32 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Question on grain utilization

  "Andy Mikesell" <andy_mikesell at yahoo.com> writes from Westwood, MA

>I've had lower than expected OG readings from my last 4 all grain brews, so
>I took a few steps to address.

>My water PH was 5.4

More important than your water pH is your mash pH.  This is pretty 
low for water, and you may end up having too low pH in the mash.  Did 
you test it?

>all grain kit I brewed this
>weekend from Northern Brewer <snip> 5.5 lbs. Wheat (39) and 4 lbs. 
>Cara-pils Belgian (34)

Are you saying that the grain bill of this kit was just these two 
grains?  That is a peculiar bill - cara-pils is no a base malt but a 
kind of very pale crystal and is normally used at less than 10% to 
build body and foam stand.  34 ppg seems high in general for this 
kind of grain, but maybe it's right.

What's more, since wheat has no husk, this mash could cause runoff 
problems.  Perhaps you had channeling (no, not from King Harubi of 
ancient Mesopotamia, channels through the mash that bypassed the 
grains).  This could reduce your extract.

How was the crush?  Was the grain precrushed by Northern Brewer?  If 
so, I am sure it was a proper crush.  If not, perhaps you did not 
crush it fine enough.  This is a common cause of low efficiency.

>Should I make up the difference will DME (something I'd rather not do)?

1.041 is not terrible, but depending on the style, the beer may be 
overbittered for that gravity.  I've certainly covered mistakes with 
a little DME.  If you are adding it late in the ferment, be sure not 
to introduce oxygen.  You could boil up the DME in some water and 
cool it covered, then gently add it.  Watch out for foaming.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:41:32 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Free Advice

Herewith is my take on Patrick's water. Keep in mind that free advice is 
often worth what you pay for it.

The water has 36 mg/L calcium which translates to 1.8 mEq/L. It has 7.5 
mg/L magnesium which translates to 0.6 mEq/L. Its alkalinity is 85 mg/L 
or 1.7 mEq/L. As this is less than the total hardness (2.4 mEq/L) there 
is some permanent hardness to the tune of 0.7 mEq/L or 35 ppm as calcium 
carbonate. The associated anions are probably chloride and sulfate. The 
residual alkalinity is  1.7 - (1.8 + 0.3)/3.5 = 1.1 mEq/L or 55 ppm as 
calcium carbonate. This is marginal and suggests that some means of 
lowering mash pH (addition of gypsum, the use of some dark malt, 
decarbonation or the addition of acid to the mash) would be beneficial 
though most styles of beer can probably be successfully brewed without 
any treatment.

And yes, charcoal is effective in removing chloramines so long and the 
water is in contact with the charcoal long enough. If you can't smell it 
in the output water you are generally OK.

A.J.



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 09:56:36 -0600 (CST)
From: Mark Garthwaite <mgarth at primate.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: DIMS (Drop In Manifold System)


Bret Morrow describes how he's used a DIMS with success.  This is another
one of those instances where you slap your forehead and exclaim "Duh!  Why
didn't I think of that before!?!?"  I've got a slotted copper manifold
attached to a bulkhead fitting/ball valve in a mash/lauter combi-tun that
is direct-fired.  It works well except that the manifold makes stirring
while heating a little more of a pain.  (I have an intense fear of
scorching the mash while heating.)  Seems a DIMS would be a nice 
alternative and very convenient for brewers who are reluctant to cut holes
in their kettles for drain ports.

	I do have one question though.  Does the DIMS require siphoning to
start the flow of mash liquor?  If so, how convenient is this?  I'm
imagining starting the siphon by mouth and getting a mouthfull of very hot
wort if one isn't careful.  Ouch!

	I read the HBD regularly but never get around to posting.  I'd
just like to say thanks to everyone for contributing ideas here.  I've
gotten alot of very useful information from this valuable resource.  After
reading about Herman Holtrop's Rochefort 8 cloning contest, I'm
contemplating a Rochefort 10 cloning contest.  Any thoughts on recipe
formulation differences between 8 and 10 would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Mark in Madison, WI




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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:58:48 -0500
From: "Martin Brungard" <Martin.Brungard at trow.com>
Subject: Re: Water

Patrick managed to get some information out of his local water company.  He
is wondering about the adequacy of the information.  All he could gather was
Ca, Mg, Hardness, and Alkalinity information.  

With just that information, it appears that the water is fairly well suited
for brewing, barring some other ions in excess.

It appears that the calcium, magnesium, and hardness numbers correlate.  The
hardness calculation is: ((Ca/20) + (Mg/12.15)) * 50 , all the input and
output are in ppm.  mg/L is the same as ppm.

The alkalinity is looking good at 85 ppm.  When compared to the hardness, it
puts this water in the range of about 50 for Residual Alkalinity (RA).
Ideally, having a RA of 50 or less is preferred when using lighter colored
grists.  It appears that the water is probably a good base water for most
beers, especially darker colored grists.  Styles like pilsners may need just
a bit of help, the water is a little too hard.  

In my opinion, it appears that a few drops of acid per gallon would probably
drop the RA into a more favorable range for pilsner.  I'm not sure that
softening the water would really be needed to make a decent pilsner with that
water.  

Adding gypsum, epsom salt, chalk, or calcium chloride will harden the water,
again bringing the RA into a more favorable range for styles that can use
harder water.  I'd say increasing the calcium concentration in this water up
to about 100 ppm would be about the limit without requiring an increase in
alkalinity.

The main deficiency in the water data is the lack of information on sodium,
sulfate, and chloride content. I consider these ions the beer flavoring
constituents.  I recommend calling the water company back and asking
specifically for these three ion concentrations.  I think they will provide
the data if they know what you want.

With regard to chloramine removal, I do believe that carbon filtration will
strip the chloramine.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL 


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 08:04:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Kolsch & How long to keep crushed malt

Darrel Leavitt asked about doing a diacetyl rest for a
Kolsch.

I have fermented Kolsch in the 55-60F range using 
Wyeast Kolsch and German ale yeast.  In that temp 
range, i believe you don't get a diacetyl build up 
as you would at lager fermentation temps.  

I have made them with all Pilsner malt or Pils with 
at most 1 lb of wheat malt.  I mashed at 148F to 
get high attenuation.

- ---------------------------------

Steve Tighe asked about how long to keep crushed malt 
before brewing.

>I went to the LHBS on Saturday with the intention of
>brewing on Sunday. Well with one thing and another
the
>grain I crushed in the store is still sitting in the
>bucket I crushed it into (dry). Hope to brew later
>this week but it may need to wait till next weekend.

You may not be aware.. There are some professionals 
(some brewpubs are a good example) that order 
pre-crushed malt.  It surely takes more than 
a week to get to them.  They successfully produce 
beer from it.  

How long should you expect it to be good?  I don't 
know, but you should be OK for a week or two.

- ---------------

Yes, I have relocated.  I haven't looked up the
Rennerian coordinates yet, but I know I am further 
away now.




=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:57:55 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: calculating homebrew calories

"Andy Mikesell" <andy_mikesell at yahoo.com> asks:

>how do I figure out the caloric value of my homebrew?  Is there a 
>way to do this without a precision
>lab and specialized instruments?

All you need to know is starting and final gravities.  There have 
been some published charts for this, but I can't seem to find them 
with a quick google search.  I did find a nifty calculator by 
erstwhile HBDer Glenn Tinseth at 
http://www.oldwestbrew.com/beer_specs_calc.htm, but it doesn't seem 
to calculate.  Maybe a working version is somewhere else, but I 
couldn't find it.

Do a little poking around on the net and HBD archives and I'm sure 
you'll come up with it.

I was hoping someone else would post an answer but there's nothing in 
the queue, so I hope this is better than nothing.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 08:30:12 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Re: Disposing of Brewery Waste Water

Stuart,

Based on my experience of dumping sanitizers (Iodophor and Star-San) and 
trub into my septic system for the last 5 1/2 years, I'd say you have 
nothing to worry about.  The amount of sanitizer you're putting into the 
septic system compared to the total volume of the system (and mine's not 
all that large) is minuscule.

         -------------->Denny

At 12:30 AM 2/27/03 -0500, you wrote:
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:05:19 -0800
>From: Stuart Lay <zzlay at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Disposing of Brewery Waste Water
>
>A question for rural brewers,
>
>My family and I are preparing to move to a rural area.  Instead of a
>sewer line to dispose of waste water and sanitizing agents (I use
>Star-San, which is advertised to be environmentally friendly), it will
>go into the septic system.
>
>How much damage will this do to a septic system or the resident
>micro-beasties?  Should I find another way to dispose of the sanitizer?
>How do you deal with this?
>
>Thanks,
>
>stuart




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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 08:43:03 -0800
From: Mark Alfaro <malfaro at kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re:  RIMS Design 

Dennis Collins writes regarding RIMS temperature probe placement:


"This is a very important consideration when building a recirculating system.
For most brewers, you will have one temperature controller that controls a
heater (RIMS or HERMS) based upon a signal from a single temperature probe
(thermocouple, RTD, etc) located somewhere in the recirc loop. In a system
design like this, the rule is that the farther the probe is placed from the
source of heat in the direction of wort flow, the larger the temperature
fluctuation you can expect in your mash."

I have placed my temperature probe at the mash tun outlet on my system 
because the temperature of the mash is what I want to control. I also have 
a dial thermometer at the heater outlet. In actual practice ( 70+ brews), I 
see no more than a 3 to 4 degree temperature difference between the heater 
outlet temp and the mash tun outlet temp when ramping temperature ( heater 
duty cycle = 100%). Once the temperature of the mash is within the 
proportioning band of the controller, the temperature difference diminishes 
to zero as the system reaches setpoint. I have found that the critical 
parameter in maintaining the small temperature difference during temp ramps 
is maintaining a proper flow rate through the grain bed. With a properly 
tuned controller and the correct flow rate you can hit your setpoint with 
no overshoot or oscillation and maintain your set point within one degree. 
However, if the wort takes too long to cycle through the system due to 
grain bed compaction or pump inlet clogging from grain particles, feedback 
to the PID is delayed and local overheating is a consequence. Good flow 
rate can be assured with proper crush of the grains, good false bottom 
design, and correct grist to water ratio ( I use 1quart per pound plus one 
gallon to fill the area under the false bottom and the system piping). YMMV.

Mark Alfaro
Chula Vista, CA
1950,262.1 AR



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:46:09 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Thinking about a Kolsch

Darrell,

I don't know this particular recipe but my opinions on your question begins
with the grain bill.  I don't know what the 2 row you refer to but it should
not be Pale malt, but rather a Pilsner malt.  You should also drop the
Munich malt and just up the Pils malt by a pound.  This style should be very
light gold in color and IMHO the Munich would take it out of style for color
(depending on the oL of the Munich malt) and flavor.  The Kolsch is a very
delicate, soft beer.  

A specific diacetyl rest shouldn't be necessary since the fermentation takes
place at the low end of the ale temperature range.  The yeast should
re-absorb the diacetyl it's produced.  You could even go lower than 60, say
to 55oF.   Ferment at this temperature until it's fully fermented out, say
give it 2 weeks; that will give the yeast plenty of time to complete the
fermentation as well as re-absorb any excess diacetyl.  Then rack and lager
for 4-6 weeks at 32-35oF.   No additional yeast is needed in the secondary.
But you may need to add yeast at bottling if you've managed to settle out
most of the yeast.  Either add or just suck up some of the settled yeast
when you rack to the bottling bucket.

Good luck.

Dave Houseman




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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:52:01 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Mixing finishing sugar

Bruce,

What has worked for me is to put the bottling sugar syrup in the bottling
bucket first.  I then rack onto the priming sugar.  There's a natural
swirling and mixing that then goes on that seems to do a good job of mixing
things up.  I also suck up a little yeast as well to ensure a good ferment
in the bottle.  A quick stir at the end and I haven't had the sort of mixed
results you report.  Of course I have had a few contaminated bottles which
was the cause of over carbonation or two but that's a different story.
Perhaps not foolproof but it works for me.

Dave




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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 12:04:44 -0500 (EST)
From: ksc58 <kcada at cas.org>
Subject: Forwarded: Beer Filtering



   Has anyone here ever used the beer plate filter supplied by
either Williams Brewing (www.williamsbrewing.com) or Grape
and Granary (www.grapeandgranary.com)?  (I'm assuming these
are the same product.)  If you have, how pleased were you with
the results?  I make small batches (3-5 gallon) quite
infrequently so it would be easier for me just to pitch the
filters after each use rather than trying to reuse a more pricey
filter like a Macron Filter or even a cartridge filter.

   Has anyone ever published a paper comparing some of the
available filters?  BYO in Aug '97 touched on the use of a
cartridge filter but I have't been able to find much else except
in Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide.


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 13:05:22 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: RE: calculating homebrew calories

Glenn Tinseth was kind enough to provide me with the original calorie 
calculator: http://www.realbeer.com/hops/kcalc_js.html.  It also 
calculates alcohol.

Pretty slick.  Thanks to Glenn for devising it.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 13:11:25 -0500
From: "Romanowsky, Paul" <paul.romanowsky at siemens.com>
Subject: Mixing finishing sugar

Bruce,

You wrote:

>Hi, I have been brewing for a while, but have been observing something
>perplexing.  When I add the finishing sugar syrup (corn sugar and water)
just
>before bottling, I stir for quite a long time, but still seem to end up
with a
>few bottles with too little carbonation, and a few with too much.  With
stout,
>most of the bottles are fine, but an occasional bottle has largish bubbles
that
>dissipate, instead of the fine smooth foam I expect.  Could there be
>contamination that spoils the carbonation and head?  Is there a foolproof
way of
>mixing in the finishing sugar syrup? Thanks for your feedback.

Stirring as you state "for quite a long time" is not a good idea.  By doing
this you are letting more oxygen make contact with your beer which is not
good.  All I do is boil my sugar water solution for 5 minutes, let cool
slightly and then dump into the bottom of my bottling bucket.  Then siphon
your beer from the fermenter to the bottling bucket making sure your siphon
tubing is at the very bottom of the bottling bucket when the siphon starts.
This will prohibit splashing and such that would also oxygenate your beer.
The siphon action alone will be enough to mix the sugar with your beer.  I
have used this method many times and never had the carbonation problems you
speak of.  Exactly if oxygenation would give you these problems, I do not
know, but stirring for quite a long time does not sound like a good idea to
me.

Paul Romanowsky



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 13:13:52 -0500
From: "Jones, Steve (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: FW: RE: Weight Watchers and Homebrew points

> Andrew Mikesell wants to know:
> 
> >Assuming the fat and fiber content is negligible, how do I figure out the
> >caloric value of my homebrew?  Is there a way to do this without a
> precision
> >lab and specialized instruments?
> 
> Well, Andrew, look no further than our own HBD server, at
> http://hbd.org/franklin/public_html/tools.html. From the drop down list,
> select Alcohol & Caloric Calculator.
> 
> 
> Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN;
> State of Franklin Homebrewers http://hbd.org/franklin
> [421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
> 
> 


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---