HOMEBREW Digest #4189 Fri 07 March 2003

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  RE: Deadband Controller ("Mike Sharp")
  Re: Stainless Steel Scrubbies (John Palmer)
  Hot Break and protien rest (Murray Manson)
  Greed and serving memories ("Wayne Holder")
  Chicago water analysis help ("Scott Staley")
  RE: GUINNESS WIDGET ("Scott Staley")
  RE:  Deadband Controller (Bill Tobler)
  Dryhopping a Lager (ILRI)" <R.KRUSKA at CGIAR.ORG>
  re: Biere de Gardge (Jonathan Royce)
  RE: Burning widgets in your chicken (Pat Babcock)
  Cider Question (Beer Drinker)
  TMS And Naked Greed ("Reddy, Pat")
  Moving on... (Pat Babcock)
  re:  GUINNESS WIDGET ("Davison, Patrick")
  Widget (AJ)
  extreme lag in primary (Brian Dube)
  Undercounter Fridge? (mohrstrom)
  The Fridge ("Adam Wead")
  My little yeast rant (Brian Lundeen)
  re: biere de garde (homebre973)
  I have been drinking heavily this evening.... ("Scott D. Braker-Abene")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:57:09 -0800 From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Deadband Controller Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:04:36 -0600 From: "Reddy, Pat" <Pat.Reddy at mavtech.cc> Subject: Deadband Controller Pat Reddy gives a 'Heads up' to J. Keller" >Fortunately, Cole Parmer has just started a promotion >on ON-OFF temperature controllers. For $39 you get >a 16A SPST relay, deadband control, and a probe (probably >not waterproof). "A deadband controller is not the same (not even close) to the PID controllers you've seen so much talk about here the last few days...." If I understood his idea, he was intending to use it only for an over-temperature limiter, with the relay in series with the SSR or whatever that the PID uses. So, the PID measures the mash temp, controlling just fine, and since temp is below the deadband controller setpoint, it's relay remains closed. Power to the heater is limited by the PID controller. But if the mash becomes stuck, flow drops and the temp in the RIMS chamber goes too high. The deadband controller keeps the heater from getting too hot, by shutting things down (until the chamber cools off). I imagine it would continue to work, albeit with some serious temperature cycling, in that case. However, if he's really got gadget fever, he could buy a SPDT relay, and sound an alarm in the event the DB controller shuts off. Regards, Mike Sharp Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 21:17:40 -0800 From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com> Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Scrubbies Dave asked whether stainless steel scrubbies would be non-corrosive for cleaning stainless steel. Short answer: I am not sure. Long answer: Depends on what grade of stainless steel is used to make the scrubbies. If its the austenitic aka 300 series aka 18-8 type (Kegs, good Pots), then it would probably always be okay. But if it is of the martensitic aka 400 series (Knives, some fittings, (doubt it)) or the ferritic (cheap stainless flatware, cheap pots) then it would probably lead to problems. I am guessing that ss scrubbies are the cheaper ferritic types. John Palmer john at howtobrew.com www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 21:53:56 -0800 From: Murray Manson <mansonm at shaw.ca> Subject: Hot Break and protien rest While brewing a pale ale the other day, I produced a very strong hot break, heavier than anything I've encountered before. Would this indicate that the protien rest was too long or even unnecessary? I was using 2 row pale malt, some crystal and honey malt, and had a 30 minute rest at 50 celcius during the mash. Any ideas on how a heavy hot break could influense the final product? Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 22:31:12 -0800 From: "Wayne Holder" <zymie at charter.net> Subject: Greed and serving memories Rich Scotty posts: "Bad news for those of us who procrastinated on constructing a conical fermentor. Toledo Metal Spinning has doubled all their prices on the conical hopper family. The 12.5 gallon model TMS16914 was about $74 as memory serves. It is now $152 - a little over 100% jump overnight! Does anyone know of another source for these vessels? TMS got greedy... " Rich, you should check your memory server, I believe you have a parity error. It is true that TMS has re-aligned their pricing matrix to reflect a volume pricing discount structure. While the single piece price has increased, it is not a "100% jump overnight". I always recommend checking your facts before publicly posting, especially when using terms like "greedy". I understand what TMS did for two reasons: 1. As a homebrewing product manufacturer/wholesaler, I can tell you first hand about the added time and costs involved in shipping large quantities of small orders. It simply is more efficient to be able to ship a larger quantity of items to a smaller number of locations than it is to ship a smaller quantity of items to a larger number of locations. Bottom line: onesie, twosie orders are a PITA. 2. I have actually talked to the V.P. of TMS. Distribution through homebrew supply retailers is in the works. Nothing beats actual information. Calling people greedy that don't deserve it is uncalled for. I would venture to say that if you do find someone that fabricates one-piece spun Stainless hoppers, you won't find them any cheaper for a single piece. Stainless fabrication is not cheap. Wayne Holder AKA Zymie Long Beach, CA http://www.zymico.com "All paid for by our good customers" - -- Lynne O'Connor Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 06:54:05 +0000 From: "Scott Staley" <staleop at hotmail.com> Subject: Chicago water analysis help If anyone who has any knowledge of water relating to mashing has time and would not mind looking at my chicago water analysis at http://www.ci.chi.il.us/WaterManagement/water.html# I would love to hear some opinions on it. I've only done 4 all grain batches, all using distilled water, adding a couple tsp of dried malt extract and gypsum, following something I read in Ken Schwartz's partial mash paper. I'd rather not make a trip to the store to buy water. If I just boil my tap water and let it sit overnight to get rid of any chlorine, should I be fine to mash? thanks, -scott Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 07:03:11 +0000 From: "Scott Staley" <staleop at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: GUINNESS WIDGET I think I first heard about this chicken recipe on this forum a year or so ago. There was something on an NPR radio broadcast about it. I've never heard of the book, but I made the chicken and I think that the beer can is supposed to be opened, so maybe that would make using Guiness with a widget not a problem. But, why use Guniess? I think the beer just serves a moisture while the bird is cooking. I never tasted any type of beer flavor eating the chicken. You could probably fill an empty pop can with water, rather than waste a Guiness. It's similar to a recipe in Marcella Hazan's Italian cookbook, which is excellent, for chicken with 2 lemons. 2 lemons in the cavity, that's it. They moisten it and it comes out great. -scott Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 04:56:53 -0600 From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net> Subject: RE: Deadband Controller Yesterday, Pat said: "A deadband controller is not the same (not even close) to the PID controllers you've seen so much talk about here the last few days. A deadband controller is just as it sounds. Set your desired temp to 150 with an 8 degree deadband and your heating element (RIMS) will go on until 154 is reached and then shut off until the temp drops down to 146 then ramp the temp up to 154 again. Or, in HERMS terms...the heat exchange solenoid will remain open until your probe, where ever it may be, reads 154 then switch to the bypass until the low side of 146 in sensed. This would no doubt cause a serious temperature fluctuation exactly like Dennis Collins described in his attempt to discredit us superior HERMS brewers :) . A PID controller on the other hand will learn to switch it's output(s) on and off to MAINTAIN a setpoint temperature by applying it's control output (0-100%) to the amount of time the output(s) are held on. This equates to little, if any in some designs, temperature fluctuation...snip" Pat, I could use some direction here. My HERMS has a 3-way valve on the inlet of the HLT coil, and I have two Omega PID controllers, one for the HLT and the other for the mash. When I tried using PID control for the mash tun, as the mash approached temperature, the three way starting going back and forth very rapidly, bypassing every few seconds. I ended up putting the controller in on/off control, and setting the deadband at about 1.5% of setpoint. This seems to work very good, keeping the mash within two degrees of setpoint. My mash tun is insulated, so it hold heat very well. This works well for me, but I would like to know more about using the PID control mode with a solenoid valve. I have the capability, but it just did not seem to work very good. Thanks!! Bill Tobler Lake Jackson, TX (1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 02:49:31 -0800 From: "Kruska, Russ (ILRI)" <R.KRUSKA at CGIAR.ORG> Subject: Dryhopping a Lager Hi all, Have my first lager ever (a Pilsener) in primary now for almost 2 weeks (50F) and need to transfer to a Corny keg this weekend. I would like to dry hop with Saaz whole hops during the secondary/lagering stage, but I also do not want to do another transfer later to another keg. Any ideas? I also am confused about when to force carbonate (if at all) during secondary. I have read that it is good not to ferment under pressure. So do I keep releasing the pressure during the lagering, and then force carbonare after lagering is finished? Russ Kruska Nairobi, Kenya Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 04:37:34 -0800 From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com> Subject: re: Biere de Gardge Jeff Renner wrote: "I think some kind of Belgian yeast might work, but so many would be so wrong." I made a Biere de Garde (actually a Biere de Mars, but close enough) this year and I really enjoy it. (The recipe can be found on my website.) It's a beautiful rusty-orange color and is malty and slightly phenolic. The yeast that I used was Wyeast 3787--Trappist High Gravity. From Wyeast's website: "3787 Trappist High Gravity Robust top cropping yeast with phenolic character. Alcohol tolerance to 12%. Ideal for Biere de Garde. Ferments dry with rich ester profile and malty palate. Flocculation medium; apparent attenuation 75-80%. (64-78o F)" The style guideline for flavor is: "A medium to high malt flavor often characterized by toffee or caramel aspects is typical. A slight musty or woody character may be present. Hop bitterness is often modest, though subtle and restrained hop flavors may occur. Diacetyl low to none." I think I got most of this using the 3787, although I would have liked it to be a little more earthy so I will probably use more corriander seed. HTH, Jonathan Woodbury Brewing Co. www.woodburybrewingco.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 08:51:56 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: RE: Burning widgets in your chicken Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... Um, the widget is made of plastic. When you cram that can up your birdy's buttocks, and stand the can on the hot coals, you'll need to ensure that the beer never boils completely off. Otherwise, at the very least, you'll have a moist bird that tastes like a rubber chicken. Burning plastics give off toxins, too. Mmmm. yummy! Best bet, if you must use Guinness or some other widget-equipped beer, is to pour the brew into a widget-free can before packing it up your bird's... well, you know. - -- - God bless America! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.org Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock [18, 92.1] Rennerian "I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle" - Arlo Guthrie Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 06:58:32 -0800 (PST) From: Beer Drinker <srm775 at yahoo.com> Subject: Cider Question I made a apple cider and was under the impression that it cleared by itself, however, it's been sitting for quite some time and is still fairly opaque. I believe the active fermentation is over (i.e. it hasn't bubbled in some time). My question is this, should I add some geletin to clear it, like I do with my beer? Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 09:00:06 -0600 From: "Reddy, Pat" <Pat.Reddy at mavtech.cc> Subject: TMS And Naked Greed Rich, Damn, I was only weeks away from nabbing the TMS16914 myself. Say...your title says "Chief Fabricator".... Any chance you can fabricate a few hundred conical fermentors for the group? Sounds to me like we've found our replacement supplier. Pat Reddy MAVERICK Technologies Controls Engineer pat.reddy at mavtech.cc Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 08:59:08 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: Moving on... Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... As time allows, I've been s-l-o-w-l-y moving HBD content onto the new server. Clubs and others whose sites are housed on the HBD server would be well advised to maintian a local (on your pc...) backup of your current website in the event there are any accidents in transfer. I will do my best to preserve your site; however, accidents happen, and I do not have the capacity in time or tape to back up the entirity of the "clubs" directory prior to making the move. When the move is complete, all webmasters will need to contact me for their access information. I will notify via the HBD and the web site when this occurs. I'll keep y'all posted. - -- - God bless America! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.org Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock [18, 92.1] Rennerian "I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle" - Arlo Guthrie Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:46:47 -0500 From: "Davison, Patrick" <Davison at nsf.org> Subject: re: GUINNESS WIDGET On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 23:33:48, MATTHEW HAHN asked a question about the GUINNESS WIDGET: "I got the book BEER CAN CHICKEN as a gift. It contains recipes that call for an open can of beer to be inserted into a whole chicken on the grill. As I rarely drink canned beer, I am wondering if it is safe to do this with a Guinness or other can that contains a widget. Anybody try it?" As a long-time lurker, I am proud to say I can finally provide some thoughtful insight! Here's what I recommend: Buy yourself a four-pack of Guinness Draught in cans, or maybe two or three just to be safe. Then call a friend who has poorly developed tastes in his/her choice of beer. Offer to swap a homebrew or one of your Guinness Draughts in exchange for a can of whatever is in the back of his/her fridge. Then guilt them into making it two cans, or perhaps three. Anyway, buy as many chickens as you have cans of exchanged beer, prepare the chickens as instructed in the recipe, and drink the remaining Guinness Draughts with your meal. I made beer can chicken a few times last summer. It's amazingly good, and if my memory serves me correctly, I used Miller Lite. The beer stuck inside the cavity steams the meat from the inside-out, making for an extremely juicy bird that's almost impossible to overcook, not to mention it's rather fun and humorous to see a chicken sitting on a can on your grill. If you want to cook the bird with Guinness, I don't think the widget would get to a melting temperature, but the taller can might make the bird sit funny. You could always pour the Guinness into any empty 12-ounce aluminum can. For those of you wanting to try the recipe, there are a number of websites that have a recipe available. The first hit when I searched on Google.com is listed below: http://organizedhome.com/kitchen/beercan.html Enjoy, Pat Davison Ferndale, MI Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:00:12 +0000 From: AJ <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: Widget The widget is placed in the can and both are purged of air (how this is done I don't know - a combination of vacuum and CO2 I'd guess). The can is then filled with carbonated beer, two drops of liquid nitrogen are put in and the can quickly sealed. The sealed can then goes through a flash pasteurizer. It is the rise in temperature in the pasteurizer that vaporizes the nitrogen and increases its pressure in the can enough to force beer into the widget through the tiny hole (the widget interior is still at atmospheric pressure). After cooling, the interior of the can and interior of the widget are at the same pressure but it is higher than atmospheric. Thus when the can is opened and the headspace comes to atmospheric pressure you have the opposite of the situation in the pasteurizer: the pressure in the widget is higher than the pressure in the can and beer rushes out through the little hole to disturb the bear and produce the visual effect. A.J. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:49:58 -0600 From: Brian Dube <brian.dube at gotgoat.com> Subject: extreme lag in primary I brewed a 5-gallon batch of American cream ale on Saturday, 01 March, and there is still no activity in the air lock. I used a small yeast starter, but I did forget to add yeast nutrient. Even if this batch does eventually take off, will it be ruined by off-flavors (assuming an infection doesn't take hold first)? I'm sorry that I'm posting a question I can answer using the wait-and-see method; I would rather just throw the batch out now if you think this lag time is going to ruin the beer. Thanks, Brian - -- Brian Dube Columbia, Missouri Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 12:07:09 -0500 From: mohrstrom at core.com Subject: Undercounter Fridge? IIRC, Adam originally asked about an undercounter fridge: > I've narrowed my choices down to the Danby DAR452 model, > and a Kenmore 3.6 cu. ft. model available from Sears. Sorry for not posting sooner, but if you are really looking for an _undercounter_ fridge (and not just a small one), check the clearance requirements. I purchased one from Best Buy that I needed to return after reading the manual (29 days after purchase ...). While it fit under the counter, it required a few inches of clearance around the sides for heat dissapation. Mark in Kalamazoo Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 10:30:56 -0700 From: "Adam Wead" <a_wead at hotmail.com> Subject: The Fridge Dear all: Thanks again for all the responses I've gotten on the fridge question. Last night I went over to my local Sears and found a Kenmore model on sale for $100. I suppose I could have shopped around for a cheaper, used one, but I wanted to get the thing over with. I had to make a couple of modifications. I cut out the plastic shelving that was on the indside of the door...no big deal. This one did have a freezer plate section at the top. I thought I could take the whole thing out, but I didn't realize till I brought it home that the coolant actually circulated through the plate! So, I took it off and very carefully bent it straight...well, straight enough so that it fits in the back. Now it holds one corny and the CO2 tank quite nicely. There's no coolant leakage, so everything appears ok... Cold beer anyone? adam wead (bloomington, in) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:08:05 -0600 From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca> Subject: My little yeast rant Steve Cavan writes: > On the not quite related point of yeast pitching levels, I > believe you need > to increase pitching rates for "cold pitching". DCL > suggests approximately > .75 gms per L at 12C but 3 gms per L at 9C. > Absolutely, and that is why I decided to split up bricks into 50 g packs. Now, I'll bet you're just trying to get me going on my White Labs rant in this forum by bringing this up aren't you? ;-) Well, OK, the gist of it is... I'm a little fed up with yeast manufacturers calling themselves pitchable when in fact they aren't. At least, not if good brewing practices are followed, and I don't consider the advice to pitch lager yeast into 70F wort as good brewing practice. I want a suitable cell count for cold pitching, at an affordable price, and easy to use (translation: no starter). Dry yeasts give that to me, the phenolics are just a bonus. ;-) (Sorry, Bill, you're a good sport). The question is, why can't the liquid yeast people start putting out products with respectable cell counts at a price near to what they are providing now? I suspect that a sizeable part of the cost of a yeast pack or tube or whatever is the overhead cost of producing it period, and has little to do with the quantity of yeast provided. My guess is, they could produce what I want, they just have little incentive to do it. When the majority of the brewing world is happy with making starters, and raves about the superiority of liquid yeasts, why should Wyeast or White Labs change their approach? Don't get me wrong, I'm pushing as hard as anyone to get White Labs into my local market. I want the variety. I just want them to make their product in a form that suits my brewing needs. Cheers Brian Lundeen Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 21:45:45 -0500 (EST) From: homebre973 at mindspring.com Subject: re: biere de garde I made this style about 6 years ago and it came in second in Best of Show and scored an average 41.2. I tried to make it again using the same recipe, but I fermented it at too high a temperature (67 F) and it was too estery, so a cool fermentation is critical. I developed this after e-mailing with Kit Anderson on the HBD back then. Biere de Point Guard Category : Biere de Garde Method : Full Mash Starting Gravity : 1.063 Ending Gravity : 1.016 Alcohol content : 6.1% Recipe Makes : 5.0 gallons Total Grain : 11.75 lbs. Color (srm) : 12.2 Efficiency : 75% Hop IBUs : 27.0 Malts/Sugars: 0.75 lb. sucrose 0.50 lb. CaraMunich 60L 5.00 lb. Vienna 0.50 lb. Wheat 4.00 lb. Lager 2-Row 1.00 lb. Light Dry Malt Extract Hops: 0.25 oz. N.Brewer pellet 7.2% 90 min 0.50 oz. Gr. Hal.Hers.Pt 2.6% 30 min 0.50 oz. Tettnanger 3.4% 60 min Grain Starting Temperature: 65F Desired Grain/Water Ratio: 1.25 quarts/pound Strike Water: 3.67 gallons of water at 133F First Mash Temperature: 122F Second Mash Temperature: 158F Boiling Water to add: 2.92 gallons Notes: 1/18/99 2 tsp gypsum in mash water 15 min protein rest at 122 F not enough room in tun, took out some a brought to boil to raise temp to 158 F at 11:03 added rehydrated TBS of irish moss in 1 pint cooled add pitched Wyeast 3787 at 67 F. Lager for 1 month after a 2 to 3 wk fermentation ferment at room temp 55 to 60 F. \ Hope this helps, Andy from Hillsborough Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 19:37:10 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at yahoo.com> Subject: I have been drinking heavily this evening.... Then again... What else would you do in Wayne, PA??? However, All that being said.... Dave Burley has been on recently and so has Al K... So.... What ever came of the great CLINITEST debate? hehehehehehhheheehhhehehh -Scott "Pat Babcock is Jealous of the Plaid" Abene ===== "My life is a dark room... One big dark room" - BeetleJuice http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club Return to table of contents
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