---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Burton on Trent Water (David Humes)
  Buying Hops Plants (Ludwig)
  re:Dry Hopping A lager ("Shogun007")
  re: I have been drinking heavily this evening.... ("Shogun007")
  15 gal plastic cylindroconicals (ensmingr)
  Re: Conical Cooling Experiment Vol. 1....Any Refrigeration Experts (Kent Fletcher)
  re: Dryhopping a Lager ("Steve Alexander")
  re: Fully Automated Brewing System: Motor driven aggitator ("Steve Alexander")
  Northdown and Horizon ("ktegels")
  RE: Care and cleaning of plastic ("David Houseman")
  RE: Cynmar; TMS ("Steve Jones")
  Re: Cleaning Plastic ("Jonathan Royce")
  Things ("A. J. delange")
  RE: Chili Beer Questions ??? (rscotty)
  SS Scrubbies and Not! ("Dave Burley")
  Re: Motorized Mash Mixing ("Don")
  TMS (Roger & Roxy Whyman)
  Wyeast 3767 Roeselare yeast? (TomAGardner)
  Nitrogen/Co2 Tank for Regular Beer? (Ryan Neily)
  Greed ("Wayne Holder")
  re: Removing ... Labels ("Steve Alexander")
  re: pepper beers (Jeff & Ellen)
  Toronto Brewpubs ("Ian Watson")
  Subject: more PID questions ("Eric Stiers")
  TMS Greed ("H. Dowda")
  I've Got a Cold Box! ("Jonathan Royce")
  DCL yeast identity/on a rant ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: Efficiency (Steven S)


*
* Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! 
* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
*
* The HBD Logo Store is now open!
* http://www.cafeshops.com/hbdstore
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:19:56 -0500
From: David Humes <dhumes001 at comcast.net>
Subject: Burton on Trent Water

Greetings,

I've been giving some more attention lately to matching my brewing water
mineral content to the beer style.  Fortunately, I live in an area where the
water is very neutral, so you can create just about any brewing water you
want.  When attempting to match the Burton on Trent water I came across what
appears to be a discrepancy between Ray Daniels and the rest of the brewing
world.  Ray states that the Burton water has 0 ppm bicarbonate, whereas most
other sources (Terry Foster's Pale Ale book, A.J.'s post in digest #1765,
Palmer http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-2.html, Promash) seem to
think that the Burton bicarbonate level is anywhere from 141 to 320 ppm.
This is quite a span.  I thought that maybe Ray's table for the Burton water
on page 173 of Designing Great Beers contained a misprint.  But then the
text on page 169 states, "This is true because Burton water is exceedingly
hard but has no bicarbonate..."  Ray, if you see this post maybe you could
comment on your source for the Burton on Trent water and why you believe it
is so low in bicarbonate.  I noticed that Bill Frazier noted the same
discrepancy in his post in digest #3306.  Bill, did you ever get an answer?
Of course if anyone else can shed some light on this, that would be
appreciated as well.

Thanks.

- --Dave




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:34:37 -0600
From: Ludwig <Bluestar792 at netscape.net>
Subject: Buying Hops Plants

Hi Everybody

Where can I buy hops plants?  I would like to grow my own.

George

- -- 
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. 
Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! 
http://shopnow.netscape.com/



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 20:10:35 -0800
From: "Shogun007" <ShoGun007 at SBCGlobal.net>
Subject: re:Dry Hopping A lager

Russ asks about dry hopping his Pilsener and carbating during secondary.

Russ - I'd highly recommend that you NOT dry hop your pilsener. Dry
hopping is a technique that is proven to create some un-wanted flavors
(like chewing on dried lemon pythe) in a pilsener. Great in a pale ale,
ipa, barley wine, but I'd hate to see you do this to your first
pilsener. If you are absolutely set on it, at least split the batch and
only dry hop half of it.

Carbonation isn't required until you are ready to serve the beer. Once
you have let the pilsener sit in cold storage for a while (lagering),
then keg and force carbonate (or bottle).

Charley



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 20:26:20 -0800
From: "Shogun007" <ShoGun007 at SBCGlobal.net>
Subject: re: I have been drinking heavily this evening.... 

Al and Dave are on the digest? I've been away too long.

I've finally finished the remodel on my basement (new home 2 years ago),
ready start brewing again. Its been a year now.

Hi Al, Hi Dave, long time no email...

If you're wondering about the email address, we bought a Japanese
restaurant and put in a sushi bar. Keeps the wife busy. And just to make
this worth posting on hbd - we have Asahi and Kirin and Sapporo. I like
Asahi best, goes great with tempura.

Charley Burns [still in northern cal, but no longer on my mountain :(]



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 01:19:00 -0500
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: 15 gal plastic cylindroconicals

Interesting post on 15 gal plastic cylindroconicals in
<http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/4190.html#4190-27>.

I've been fermenting in plastic buckets for ~15 years. Never saw
a reason to switch. I clean them with bleach and a bit of
detergent followed by rinsing with boiled/cooled water. I try to
avoid scratching, but am not overly worried about tiny/invisible
scratches. BTW, I've worked many years in microbiology labs so
understand the importance of -- and have much practical
experience with -- sanitation and sterility. I've never made the
perfect beer, but cannot attribute any of the imperfections of my
beers to infection or chlorine residue.

Rod - If you get one of those plastic cylindroconicals, please
tell the HBD about it. From the web site, it's hard to tell what
kind of outlet valve they have.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
http://hbd.org/ensmingr




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 22:19:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Conical Cooling Experiment Vol. 1....Any Refrigeration Experts 

Dave spaket thus:

"I have a 31 gallon conical fermenter.  It is covered
with insulation and hasa 6 foot coil running through
the inside, through which a cooled solution
flows.  The cooled solution is cooled in the freezer. 
I was able to cool 30 gallons of water 26 degrees
below ambient temperature using this setup.
Specifically, I went from 70 degrees to 44 degrees.  I
think I could have gone lower, but decided that 44
degrees was low enough for now.  It took
about a day and a half to achieve this temperature.
(snip)Given how much I cooled the volume of water,
over the 36 hour period, is this enough cooling
capacity to hold 30 gallons of vigorously fermenting
beer at, say, 68 degrees if the ambient temp was 80
degrees?"

Armed with the calculations provided by Steve A. in
digest #3903-15:
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3909.html#3909-15
the rest is relatively simple.  You didn't mention
what kind of SG wort you're talking about, but given
Steve's upper bound scenario (more or less) of an
1.120 barleywine, ("Like a 15gal
fermenter capable of handling 1.120SG barleywines with
a (120*15*0.50/24hrs)37.5kcal/hr.")
we can extrapolate a worst-case.  So for 30 gallons of
the same wort, we're talking about 75 kcal/hr, or
about 300 btu/hr.  As Steve correctly pointed out,
this is not a huge amouont of heat to remove.  Your
current setup lowering 30 gallons 24 def F over 36
hours works out to 541 btu/hr.  Given that you're
PROBABLY not going to routinely ferment 30 gallons of
1.120 wort, your improvised recirc chiller would seem
to have more than enough capacity.

Kent Fletcher
Brewing in So Cal



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:36:29 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Dryhopping a Lager

Russ in Nairobi writes,

>Have my first lager ever (a Pilsener) ...
>I would like to dry hop with Saaz ...
>Any ideas?

My suggestion  is DON'T !

Dry hopping produces a somewhat weedy character in a beer in addition to the
floral aroma.  This weedy flavor and big aroma work well in ales, but is
completely wrong and out-of-style in a lager, particularly a pilsner.
Dryhopping is primarily a UK ale process, tho' it also appears in Sticke
(special altbier) and some Belgian ales.  It's a mistake in a pils.

>I also am confused about when to force carbonate (if at all) during
> secondary. I have read that it is good not to ferment under pressure.

It's an advanced topic, but there are times when fermenting under
pressure is preferable.

>So do I keep releasing the pressure during the lagering, and then
>force carbonare after lagering is finished?

Modern German practice is to lager under 0.5 to 0.6 bar of
overpressure(above atmospheric) according to Kunze.   This
leaves the beer with appropriate levels of carbonation for serving.
The lager vessels are fitted with pressure relief valves to prevent
excess pressure.   If the beer doesn't develop the appropriate
pressure then krausen is added.

For homebrew you can afford to be more extravagant in
your use of CO2.   If you want you can keep the lagering
pressure low and add carbonation later.



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 04:42:28 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Fully Automated Brewing System: Motor driven aggitator

Caryl writes ...,

>I've decided to go with a motor driven stirrer of some sort with my fully
>automated brewery design.  This is so I won't run the risk of getting a
>stuck sparge during the mash (RIMS recirculation). 

You mean a stuck recirculation, not sparge - no ?

> [..]  grain under a false bottom [...]
>I made a filter out of stainless mesh that is shaped like a sock. [...]
> keeps all the
>particles in the mash tun and out of my pump.

Ehhhh - lets say all the really big particles.  Mash liquor is chock
full of particles that can't be filtered this way.

>But in wonder if that'd be enough especially since I only brew wheat beer
>with typically 60-70% wheat.  Maybe I just need to use rice hulls or
>something.  I don't know.  I need to find a way that is stuck sparge proof
>and easy to clean. and cheap.


Your goal seems to be to maintain a decent recirculation
rate despite your 'sticky' mash grist.  Tough problem.

- --

A stuck recirculation can occur when you create a significant 
pressure differential between the mash surface and the liquor
under the false bottom.   That is, your pump is creating enough
suction to squeeze the grist tight against the plate and this closes all
the nice little gaps between grist particles where wort flows.  After
you fully stick the mash the only option is to stir and reset the gristbed.

There are several approaches to solving this problem.

1/ Create a wort grant.  This is a chamber below the mash tun
where wort collects under gravity feed alone.   The chamber is
open to atmosphere (probably needs breather uptube to
prevent spillage) so that you can pump the chamber dry without
creating any additional suction pressure under the plate.

Grants prevent sticking by preventing the suction that causes the
pressure differential, but a grant  fill rate is determined by the
<grist, FB, gravity (siphon levels)> design of the system.   If you
use a sticky grist, like 70% wheat, then the flow to the grant may
not be sufficient to feed your RIMS pump - depends on the design.
 
2/ Rakes.   The idea here is that instead of stirring the entire
grist you use rakes (small blades) to cut thru the upper layers
of the gristbed and this improves flow.   A properly designed
rake system won't produce nearly the amount of particulate
as a stirrer.

The commercial 'state of the art' rake systems are combined
with a manometer which senses the pressure differential
between under the plate and over the plate mash liquor.
The rake height is controlled so that the rake tines are
lowered as the differential increase (implies slow flow)
and raised as the differential decreases.  It would 
be pretty simple to add a manometer measure to a
conventional mash-tun.  I suspect there is a simple and
ingenious mechanism to raise and lower HB scale rakes
too.

3/ Rice hulls.   Well really this is about improving the flow
rate by increasing the amount of gaps and voids in the grist
so there is more porous space for flow to occur.   I really
like this idea - it most directly attacks the problem IMO.

I do have misgivings about rice hulls.   Rice hulls have
very high levels of silicates.  Silicates released to the
wort give an unpleasant bitterness.   I tend to use hulls
only late in the mash and prefer avoiding them altogether.
I can't honestly say I've had any flavor problems
attributable to rice hulls, but the potential is there.
Otherwise these are almost ideal - cheap, effective,
biodegradable, a good compost/soil amendment..

Has anyone tried oat hulls or soy hulls ?   I suspect
they should work well too.
 
- ----------

A possible approach to the  problem would be to throttle
the pump (or outlet valve) on a RIMS/HERMS system
based on a manometer differential pressure so that sticking
doesn't occur. This is effectively what RIMS brewers do
'by eye'  when they reduce the pump rate to prevent sticking.

 -S





Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 07:24:21 -0600
From: "ktegels" <ktegels at msn.com>
Subject: Northdown and Horizon

Greetings,

I'd thinking about trying these two hops -- Northdown as aroma, Horizon
as bittering -- in a light American Ale. I'm also thinking about using
White Labs East Coast Ale yeast with it. As usual, I'm just guessing
about this mix. Does anybody have any comments about these hops or
yeast? Any other ideas? The goal is to make a good base beer for
possible use as a fruit or honey brew.

Thanks!
Kent
[633.3, 267.8] Apparent Rennerian


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 08:59:07 -0500
From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Care and cleaning of plastic

A couple of posts were on the topic of the care and cleaning of plastic
fermenters.  Lots has been said pro and con WRT the use of plastic so
there's no use to repeat what is in the archives but my personal experiences
are:  Several years ago I went back to plastic primaries because it's much
easier on my back than carrying glass carboys.  My experience has been that
I've had no sanitation problems with plastic fermenters (knock on wood).  I
use no scrubbies.  When I'm finished with a batch of beer, the yeast goes
down the toilet (good for the septic system --- but that's another topic).
Warm to hot water and a paper towel are all that's need to clean the
fermenter.  I've never needed anything stronger.   Once clean, I fill it
with water and chlorine bleach and let it sit for several days.  This is
then drained and air dried.  When it comes time to brewing again, I fill and
sanitize with iodophor solution, empty and air dry upside down to keep
beasties from falling in.  My fermenters have lasted for years (knock on
that wood again).

Dave Houseman



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 09:29:45 -0500
From: "Steve Jones" <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: RE: Cynmar; TMS

Cynmar will take orders from individuals. I have purchased
2L Erlenmeyer flasks ($12 IIRC), magnetic stir bars, culture
tubes, media, tubing brushes, etc. Easy online ordering,
great prices, fast service - all you need it a credit card.
NAYYJASC.

As far as the TMS price increase goes, I bought one a few
years ago and am very happy with it. I was thinking of
buying another, but at the new price I will not. They say it
was a 'price restructuring, with quantity discounts' at the
request of their larger customers. But I surmise that their
larger customers were complaining that individual sales are
undercutting their profits, so TMS has responded with a
restructuring that will add 75% to the new price for
individual orders, but only 15% to orders of 25 or more (20%
on 10-24, 25% on 5-9). But the bottom line is that if you
can get 4 buddies together to buy 5 of them, you can get
them for $110 + shipping, which is still a bargain compared
to a finished job from one of the biggies. And methinks
Zymie has nearly completed his journey down the path of
transition from thinking like a homebrewer to thinking like
a homebrew equipment manufacturer.

Thanks to Rod, my next conical will probably come from US
Plastics.

Don't forget to enter your vote in the AHA's Board of
Advisor's election. Your voice counts, but only if you speak
it!

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
http://hbd.org/franklin





Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 09:35:49 -0500
From: "Jonathan Royce" <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: Re: Cleaning Plastic

Rod Tussing asks:

"I know that lots of homebrewers are using plastic (buckets, minibrew
conicals, v-vessels, etc) fermentors
and I wonder what is the best way to clean but not scratch?"

Well, I've only been using plastic for a few months as a fermenter, but I've
used a plastic bucket for bottling for well over a year. My cleaning regime
includes Ivory liquid dish soap, some high pressure hot water, a bottle
brush and a regular sponge. As far as I can tell, my plastic buckets (and
glass fermenters for that matter), are as clean and scratch free as the day
that I bought them. I've yet to have an infection, so that seems to confirm
my opinion that things are clean.

Personally, I don't understand the attraction of using PBW or other more
expensive cleansers. I've tried PBW and it seems to be no better (or worse)
than the dish liquid. That said, I always clean my equipment before and
after every brew session, and I always clean things as soon as I am done
using them, thus preventing anything from drying on.

BTW, I use Ivory soap because it is fragrance free, dye free and it seems to
rinse clean very easily.

HTH,
Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:03:26 +0000
From: "A. J. delange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Things

Chicago water is very "nominal" - about what you would expect from a 
large city's plant - and as such is suitable for almost all styles of 
beer. For nothern (Burton) style ales the sulfate will need to be 
augmented by adding gypsum. For Bohemian style Pilsners dilution with 
one or two parts of distilled water would probably be a good idea 
(mostly to cut the sulfate down to half or a third). The alkalnity is at 
about 2 mEq/L offset by 1.5 mEq/L calcium and almost 1 mEq/L magnesium 
for a residual alkalinity of about 1.4 (70 ppm as CaCo3) and this a 
little higher than desireable but not so much as couldn't be compensated 
for with a little crystal or caramel malt.

Allowing water to stand will indeed allow chlorine to escape but it will 
take longer than it does if the water is vigorously aerated. The problem 
is that most large city water supplies are now chloraminated and 
chloramine escapes at a much slower rate than chlorine. Boiling for an 
hour or two will remove most chloramine but treatment with Campden 
tablets or filtration over acitvated charcoal will also do the job.
 
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Some of the discussion on controllers makes me think that there is 
confusion concerning the "proportional" associated with the P in PID and 
proportional output. The job of the PID controller is to call for  power 
dependent upon the difference between the set point (what you dial in) 
and the process variable (temperature). The requested power is 
proportional to this difference (hence the term proportional control) 
and the type depends on whether the temperature is below (controller 
calls for heat) or above (controller calls for cooling) the set point. 
This is true only when the error signal is within the "proportional 
band". Thus the Steve Lane's surmise that he's getting more heat if he 
increases the set point is correct provided that the increased error he 
is inducing is within the proportional band. What is effectively being 
done here is to change the "proportional gain" or "band". IOW the 
controller is not tuned properly and a better approach would be to go 
through the recommended tuning procedure (which includes setting the 
integral and differential gains). In the best of worlds this is done by 
loading the system and pushing the "autotune" button. Otherwise the 
procedure can be a bit cumbersome. Also note that the tuning assumes 
that the system is linear i.e. that the amount of heat delivered to the 
load is proportional to what the controller demands. This is essentally 
true where the heat is electric - much less so when the controller 
operates a gas valve. In brewing applications there will be no chiller 
and so the control is definitely non linear on that side. Autotuning 
routines account for this.

The other part of the story is concerned with the type of output signal 
that the controller sends when it wants heat. It can send a current (4 
ma ~ no heat, 20 ma ~ full heat), a voltage (0 V ~ no heat, 5V ~ full 
heat) or open and close switch contacts for a fraction of a cycle time 
corresponding to desired percent heat. For example, if the cycle time is 
set to 10 seconds, 1 second on, 9 seconds off corresponds to a demand 
for 10% power. This mode is referred to as "proportional" by many 
writers. Someone posted the other day that his bypass valve was 
shuttling back and forth rapidly. I suspect this was a case where 
proportional output control was being used with a short cycle time. 
Setting the cycle time to a longer period will eliminate rapid actuation 
but may result in poor control if the thermal time constant of the load 
is shorter than the controller's cycle time. One controller that I have 
used comes up with a recommended cycle time when the autotune function 
is run. The operator then has the option of accepting this cycle time or 
using one he likes better. In general, one uses the longest cycle time 
that will allow good control.

PID controllers are wonderful things given that they are properly 
applied and properly tuned. Tuning is a must and is as much an art as a 
science. It is important to understand that a good tuning for protein 
rest may not be a good tuning for sachharification rest (programmable 
controllers often allow changing tune sets in the middle of a profile). 
Even so, PID controllers do have their limitations and the new "fuzzy 
logic" controllers promise to overcome some of these.

A.J.



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:28:20 +0000
From: rscotty at attbi.com
Subject: RE: Chili Beer Questions ???

In Digest #4190, Spencer Graham asks about Chili Beer and the heat factor.

Spencer - you are correct in your assusmption that heat is a result of the 
quantity of peppers introduced into the beer.  I've been a chili beer fan for 
some time - we have a local brew pub that produces a fine example.  I produced 
my own a few years back and while it wasn't what I was shooting for, my 
experience may be of some value to you.

I suggest that you use Japilino peppers or Hatch Chiles - roasting them will 
produce a more complex, and in my opinion, better flavor.  I don't know where 
you could obtain them in your local area.  Here in Colorado, we can get 
roasted Hatch chilis in season at several road-side stands.  Looking back at 
my brewing notes, I added 1 lb to the primary fermenter.  I removed the seeds 
(important) and steamed them first to make them as sanitary as possible.  Had 
I stopped there, I believe the resulting beer would have been close to what I 
had in mind.  I added 1/8 lb Serano peppers to the secondary though and this 
pushed it over the top.  It was warm.  Well, it was more than warm.  My 
neighbor / tester called it "liquid razor blades".

The good news was that after approximately 1 year, it mellowed quite nicely 
and was a fine chili beer.  Its final moniker was "El Diablo - The Beer From 
Hell".

Hope this helps and good luck.

Rich Scotty
Capsicum Specialist
The Crapshoot Brewery


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 10:33:49 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: SS Scrubbies and Not!

Brewsters:

As Fate would have it, my SO put steel ( underlined) wool pads on the shopping
list.  When I went to buy them I discovered that the SS pads available last
year were gone and a new pad listed as "steel wool non-rusting" or reduced
rust or whatever.  I suspect these pads are just plain steel and have an
additive in the soap which reduces the rusting.  I would not use them to clean
SS.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 08:21:11 -0800
From: "Don" <don at steinfillers.com>
Subject: Re: Motorized Mash Mixing 

In HBD 4190; Caryl Hornberger Slone asks for input regarding motor driven
agitator

This subject was fairly well covered in Brewing Tehcniques Nov/Dec issue
1994 by Don Putt.
The article is online:
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.6/put.html



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 09:25:17 -0700
From: Roger & Roxy Whyman <rwhyman at mho.com>
Subject: TMS

Scotty, ever hear of supply and demand? It's the American way. Get over 
it or don't buy their product.
Pretty simple.
Roger Whyman
Parker, CO



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 12:16:49 EST
From: TomAGardner at cs.com
Subject: Wyeast 3767 Roeselare yeast?

I have been thinking about brewing a sour brown ale and couldn't find much 
info about the yeast/bacteria involved, when low and behold I saw this 
yeast in a homebrew catalog. "Wyeast 3763 Roeselare yeast from a small 
Belgian brewery, this mixture of yeast and saccharomyces, brettanomyces, 
and lactic acid bacteria is balanced to produce classic Belgian sour brown 
and red beers, without the need for additional yeast or bacteria additions. 
Medium flocculation, attenuation 60-76%. Temperature range 55-80 F." Anyone 
have any experience with this product?  Would it work to add it to an already 
fermented beer? TIA, Tom


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 13:44:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Ryan Neily <ryan at neily.net>
Subject: Nitrogen/Co2 Tank for Regular Beer?


I am about to get my 20 Pound CO2 Tank filled, and I wanted to know if
getting it filled with 25% Nitorgen and 75% CO2 would affect the taste of
other types of beer when I am not dispensing Guinness.

I sometimes get Guinness kegs on special occasions, but dont have 2 CO2
tanks.  Would it be sensible to use Co2/Nitrogen mix for everything?

- -- 
Ryan Neily
ryan at neily.net

Random Quote:
"Horsepower sells cars, raw torque wins races...  - Carrol Shelby"


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 10:47:43 -0800
From: "Wayne Holder" <zymie at charter.net>
Subject: Greed

greed

n 1: excessive desire to acquire or possess more (esp material wealth) than
one needs or deserves 2: reprehensible acquisitiveness; insatiable desire
for wealth (personified as one of the deadly sins) [syn: avarice,
covetousness, rapacity, avaritia]

differentiate

v 1: mark as different; "We distinguish several kinds of maple" [syn:
distinguish, separate, secern, secernate, severalize, tell, tell apart] 2:
be a distinctive feature, attribute, or trait; sometimes in a very positive
sense [syn: distinguish, mark] 3: calculate a derivative; take the
derivative; in mathematics [ant: integrate] 4: become different during
development; of cells 5: become distinct

wholesale

\Whole"sale`\, a. 1. Pertaining to, or engaged in, trade by the piece or
large quantity; selling to retailers or jobbers rather than to consumers;
as, a wholesale merchant; the wholesale price.

retail

\Re"tail\, n. [F. retaille piece cut off, shred, paring, or OF. retail, from
retailler. See Retail, v.] The sale of commodities in small quantities or
parcels; -- opposed to wholesale; sometimes, the sale of commodities at
second hand.

Those who can differentiate wholesale from retail will surely be able to
differentiate greed from business.

Just because someone accidently stumbles into buying at wholesale price
levels does not mean that they are entitled forever.

If any pissed of keg resellers, Socially concious types, or people that
refer to themselves in the 3rd person would like to continue this discussion
off of the digest, I would be more than happy to oblige.



Wayne Holder AKA Zymie

Long Beach, CA

http://www.zymico.com



"All Paid for by our good customers"

- --Lynne O'Connor

- --









Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 14:02:27 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Removing ... Labels

Scott D. Braker-Abene writes,

>What ever came of the great CLINITEST debate?
>
>hehehehehehhheheehhhehehh

Funny that you ask at this time, Scott.

I visited Dave Burley late this past September specifically
to hash out the Clinitest issue.  We eventually came to a
complete resolution of the matter and celebrated that
evening by downing a terrific bottle of cognac between us
on Dave's back porch.(Dave is a superb host and the
cognac read <1/3% reducing sugars on the Clinitest scale).
Next day I couldn't recall  anything of the resolution, and I
am certain Dave spiked the cognac !

Attempts to form a second resolution have failed yet I
have specific and credible intelligence that Dave's garage
and vineyard harbor chemical and biological weapons of
mass fermentation(WMF) on a scale unimagined on this
forum.

Rumor has it that the complete and detailed resolution
to the Clinitest debacle are encoded on AlK's modified X
chromosome - but Al refuses to supply samples.

 -S



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 14:04:42 -0500
From: Jeff & Ellen <JeffNGladish at ij.net>
Subject: re: pepper beers

Spencer Graham wrote, "I am intrigued by the idea of this type of Chili 
beer.  Is it a HOT flavor that only a select few will tolerate, or is it 
simply a "pepper connotation" taste?  I imagine it would depend upon the 
type of peppers and amount used.  My brewing buddy and I like spicy 
stuff... but we want others to like it as well.  Suggestions as to an 
"introductory chili beer"?  Where can we get the peppers to use?  Do we 
need to roast them ourselves or are they bought that way?"
I've had good success using pablano peppers in beer.  They provide a slight 
amount of heat, but not enough to hurt anyone except the most sensitive 
pallets.  They are the same peppers used in Mexican cooking, such as chiles 
rellenos and have a very distinctive smell and taste.  Pablanos are 
available at better grocery stores.  I have used them in beers with low 
hopping rates most successfully, but also had good flavor in a Dusseldorf 
Altbier.  My current favorite recipe is for a Pablano Belgian White Beer. 
 It tastes a lot better than it sounds.
I have found that roasting the peppers over a burner for a few minutes then 
scraping off the outer, glossy peel helps keep oils out of the finished 
beer, promoting better head retention. I always remove the seeds and most 
of the white pulp on the inside of the pepper and usually cook them for an 
hour on low heat (200 F) to kill any bacteria they may be harboring.
Lately I have been adding four of the peppers to a five gallon keg and 
letting them marinate until I get the proper flavor and heat.  Sometimes 
this only takes a few days.
Good luck.  Send me a bottle.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa, FL



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 14:45:58 -0500
From: "Ian Watson" <realtor at niagara.com>
Subject: Toronto Brewpubs

Hi all

Allan Meeker asked about Toronto brewpub recommendations.   I only know of
The Amsterdam, which has an AMAZING stout, but it is only available on tap.
They DO offer several beers in 6 packs.  You can check out:

http://www.bartowel.com/amster.phtml

For more Toronto beer info, see:

http://www.bartowel.com/bar2.phtml


Ian Watson
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
[235, 71.9] Apparent Rennerian



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 16:37:31 -0600
From: "Eric Stiers" <ewstiers at chorus.net>
Subject: Subject: more PID questions


>On the HLT, it seems to take quite a while for the liquor to get up to
that 
>last 10 degrees of ramp.  In the past, I've just run the set point to
say 
>400 to increase the output and once the liquor gets to where I want it,
I 
>set the temp. back down to 175 or what ever set point I desire.  Am I 
>fooling myself to think that I am getting the water heated up quicker
by 
>dialing up the set point? 

A lot of PIDs have a 'control band' around the set point in which the
PID is actually doing it's work of turning the power on and off. Below
this band, the power is usually 100% on, and above the band the power is
0% on. If your controller has a 10 degree band, it might heat very
quickly up to that point (100% on) and then scale back the heat levels
once the band is reached. If this is the case, you can usually turn up
the gain or proportional control to shrink the control band a bit. To
test this, fill up the tank and turn up the proportional control in
increments until the temp starts to oscillate around the set point,
indicating that your proportional control is too high. Then back off the
proportional control 15% or so and add a little integral control until
the system reaches a stable temperature. Derivative control is not
needed in 95% of the cases.

Another thing that might be happening is that your heater could be
undersized to the point that it's working near its' limit to achieve the
175 degree temp. You could check this by just turning on the heater 100%
and seeing where the temp maxes out. If this is the case, you need to
insulate your tank better or get a bigger heater.

>I was told that the controllers not only control the 
>amount of time that the heater elements are on but it also controls the

>percentage energy going to the heater so that the heater isn't getting
a 
>burst of 100% power when it is in the on mode.

This really depends on your PID controller and relays. Some systems can
indeed control individual power cycles delivered to the heater, but
since they have to be able to switch on and off in 1/60 of a second or
less, you need to have a solid-state relay to do it - mechanical relays
can't keep up that kind of pace. The problem you can run into is that
having an element on at 100% for too long can get the surface of the
element so hot that it begins burning your wort - if you find grey goo
on your heater after a brew session, it's likely getting too hot. If
this is the case, you might be able to lower the cycle time of the PID
(the amount of time that the heater stays on/off at a time) so that the
heater temp doesn't have a chance to get as hot. You can also use
multiple heating elements in series to lower the local power density. If
this doesn't work, you might need to move to a solid-state relay and a
different PID so that the power is coming on in much shorter bursts. 

Good luck-
Eric

==================
Eric Stiers
ewstiers at chorus.net
Madison, WI




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 15:14:49 -0800 (PST)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: TMS Greed

Do I understand this correctly?  Let's see.  TMS is
basically a wholesale operation that sells some
directly?  They have a product that has the potential
to be wildly (they hope) popular, but the market is
unknown and markedly subject to the whims of
homebrewing chic.

They want to sell all they can but do not want to have
to do all involved in being a manufacturing retailer. 
So, to spread sales as far as possible, without having
to hire a bunch of sales people, they introduce a
(shudder) middleman (person). Problem. The mm(p)
insists on making a profit (and check wholesale vs
retail markup on other products, homebrew supplies,
cars, refrigerators).  TMS is making some profit, but
reason dictates they not make less. Soooo, 'their'
retail price goes up to a level that they can serve as
a manufacturer/wholesaler, still make the same profit
and leave all serious sales volume to the local
homebrew shop or on-line WalMart operation. The local
(or WalMart) operation can then charge what they can
get up to the suggested retail making a profit.  TMS
could hardly undercut its sales partnerships...huumm
maybe the greed is at the local level? heeheehee



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 20:03:38 -0500
From: "Jonathan Royce" <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: I've Got a Cold Box!

;-)

Finally finished my outdoor fermentation temperature controller. Perfect for
people like me who are running out of space in the house due to an
ever-increasing inventory of brewing equipment.

Many thanks to Ken Schwartz and Bill Bufkin for the inspiration.

Let me know what you think!

http://www.woodburybrewingco.com/FTC.html

Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com






Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 20:45:25 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: DCL yeast identity/on a rant

Stephen Cavan writes .....

>With the second call from C&B I was told to tell customers that
>the lager yeasts were basically the same, and that brewers
>would not notice any difference.
 ....
>I surmise that either DCL is telling the truth about the yeast, namely that
>they have one ale and one lager which they repack and label differently
just
>to hoodwink the brewing world, OR they are lying i.e., the yeasts are
>different but they don't want to be bothered repacking into smaller packs
>some strains.

Almost certainly the latter.

Look - if the yeast were the same then you have a 120yo company lying to
it's primary customers (craft and industrial brewers) about the  yeast
identity.    Why would they admit such a lie to an HB market where they have
minor financial interest.    They could just as easily print several new
11gram sachet labels and  double their HB market vs open themselves to
criticism and even lawsuits from their primary customers.

What you were told was that these yeast were "basically the same", and that
"[home] brewers would not notice any difference".    This is undoubtedly
based on DCLs exceedingly low opinion of HBers.
http://www.dclyeast.co.uk/DCL_Main/main_brewing/homebrew_index.htm
states ...
"Homebrewing has recently and gradually
changed into a means to produce cheap
beers as a most affordable hobby."

DCL thinks homebrewing is about making cheap beers and that HBers certainly
wouldn't notice the 'subtle' differences between two different lager or ale
strains since we just brew infected cheap swill from kits.

I surely wish that Lallemand had the same range of yeasts in dry form.
They certainly appraise the HB market more accurately.

=========
Joe Gerteis says ...

>Second, I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop on
>Marc Sedam's issue with the store in Texas.  Has this
>community lost its teeth

What else is there to say ?

Marc is a longtime HBD poster with extraordinary contributions
re mash hopping , FWH, and starch hydrolysis, a prolific author
in the HB magazines, and the guy who made WLP-833 a reality
and he's always been above making personal attacks.

Ms. O'Conner has posted some interesting info to the 'gest,
and runs a shop that stocks some interesting  HB wares.  Her
shop, St.Pat's has been the target of  customer complaints
in a remarkable number of posts starting in the early 1990s
and continuing to the present.  Most seem to relate to order
fulfillment problems, return policy, shipping costs, etc. .

Ms. O'Conner refuses to discuss her store policy as it relates
to rejection of customers - even in the general case - and yes
I've asked.   Marc's been on this forum long enough to make a
highly credible representation that he's a level headed honest
guy and that his legitimate order was rejected for some
"non-business" reason.

Why should we deal with a vendor that appears to give a
decent guy like Marc Sedam a hard time ?   If he's getting
blackballed  for no good reason - as seems to be the case -
then I see no reason to reward that vendor with any of my
business.

I've invited Lynne to correct any erroneous impressions left
in the wake of this stinker.  She has declined.   I take her
silence as condemnation of a policy which *seems* to be
based on personal vendetta or worse.   You are all free
to choose other interpretations.

 -Steve



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 22:30:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Re: Efficiency


Tell me about it. I sat down today and figured out my efficiency and was a
bit shocked. I'm at a loss to explain my sudden increase except the grind.
I've been all grain for some time  and my extract effeciency has been
lower than i've expected all along. I've used the same mill at the hbs
store and while I have improved my technique i've only improved flavor and
style (color/body) not effeciency.

My total grain bill this time was:

10# Petes Pale Malt
1/4# Petes Dark Crystal (80L or 120L not certain)
1/2# Breiss Toasted Malt

My mash was 15 qts, for a soupy 1.5qt per lb ratio. I know for a fact I
hit this volume since I use a 2qt measuring cup to fill my pot for heating
my mash water.

I added 4 gallons to the mash tun for the sparge. Again using the 2qt
measuring cup to fill my pot for heating. The pot was empty when I
refilled.

Total volume in my cooler read 8 gallons with grain and bazooka T-screen
so at best we are talking a total of 7 to 7.5 gallons of fluid.

These are typical amounts i've used in the past so I know about what my
levels are +/- about a half gallon max. I really really need to mark my
pots and fermenter. I lose about a 1/2-3/4 gallon in my boil and my pot
leaves about a 1/4 to 1/2 gallon behind.

Now Promash tells me, if I adjust efficiency up till it matches SG, that
i'm at 81% efficiency for a 5.0 gallon batch at 1.062. My batch could be
5.0 gallons in the fermenter, but I suspect its not since the 10 gallon
fermentor is definatly around the average for a 5.5-6.0 gallons. I'll
know for sure when I transfer to my secondary. For a 5.5 gallon batch i'm
at 88% per promash.

Maybe my hydrometer decided to go out on me? I tested it in tap water.
Reads a hair above 1.000 at about 63 degrees (calibrated for 60).

Maybe Pete's Pale Malt has more extractable sugars or more enzyme action
than I'm use to? I cant find any info on this brand so far.

The only two factors I changed (dammit, should have changed just one)
was mash time and grind. Well make that 3. I used Pete's Pale
Malt this time versus Marris Otter Pale Malt. Before then I brewed a few
Belgian Wits, Hefeweisens and an Octoberfest with similar lower than
expected effeciencies. I've always had to add a pound or two extra grain
at least to hit my target gravity.

Comments welcome!


Steven St.Laurent	403forbidden.net	[580.2,181.4] Rennerian


On Sat, 8 Mar 2003, Fred L Johnson wrote:

> Dear Steven:
>
> If 10 pounds of pale malt gave you 5.5 gallons of 1.062 wort, that would be
> a 95% efficiency. A little unbelievable.  Carefully measure your wort
> volume.
> --
> Fred L. Johnson
> Apex, North Carolina, USA
>


Return to table of contents

---