HOMEBREW Digest #4191 Mon 10 March 2003

[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]

		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

  Burton on Trent Water (David Humes)
  Buying Hops Plants (Ludwig)
  re:Dry Hopping A lager ("Shogun007")
  re: I have been drinking heavily this evening.... ("Shogun007")
  15 gal plastic cylindroconicals (ensmingr)
  Re: Conical Cooling Experiment Vol. 1....Any Refrigeration Experts (Kent Fletcher)
  re: Dryhopping a Lager ("Steve Alexander")
  re: Fully Automated Brewing System: Motor driven aggitator ("Steve Alexander")
  Northdown and Horizon ("ktegels")
  RE: Care and cleaning of plastic ("David Houseman")
  RE: Cynmar; TMS ("Steve Jones")
  Re: Cleaning Plastic ("Jonathan Royce")
  Things ("A. J. delange")
  RE: Chili Beer Questions ??? (rscotty)
  SS Scrubbies and Not! ("Dave Burley")
  Re: Motorized Mash Mixing ("Don")
  TMS (Roger & Roxy Whyman)
  Wyeast 3767 Roeselare yeast? (TomAGardner)
  Nitrogen/Co2 Tank for Regular Beer? (Ryan Neily)
  Greed ("Wayne Holder")
  re: Removing ... Labels ("Steve Alexander")
  re: pepper beers (Jeff & Ellen)
  Toronto Brewpubs ("Ian Watson")
  Subject: more PID questions ("Eric Stiers")
  TMS Greed ("H. Dowda")
  I've Got a Cold Box! ("Jonathan Royce")
  DCL yeast identity/on a rant ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: Efficiency (Steven S)

* * Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! * http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping * * The HBD Logo Store is now open! * http://www.cafeshops.com/hbdstore * * Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! * Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address for the automation - that's your job. HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit. More information is available by sending the word "info" to req at hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:19:56 -0500 From: David Humes <dhumes001 at comcast.net> Subject: Burton on Trent Water Greetings, I've been giving some more attention lately to matching my brewing water mineral content to the beer style. Fortunately, I live in an area where the water is very neutral, so you can create just about any brewing water you want. When attempting to match the Burton on Trent water I came across what appears to be a discrepancy between Ray Daniels and the rest of the brewing world. Ray states that the Burton water has 0 ppm bicarbonate, whereas most other sources (Terry Foster's Pale Ale book, A.J.'s post in digest #1765, Palmer http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-2.html, Promash) seem to think that the Burton bicarbonate level is anywhere from 141 to 320 ppm. This is quite a span. I thought that maybe Ray's table for the Burton water on page 173 of Designing Great Beers contained a misprint. But then the text on page 169 states, "This is true because Burton water is exceedingly hard but has no bicarbonate..." Ray, if you see this post maybe you could comment on your source for the Burton on Trent water and why you believe it is so low in bicarbonate. I noticed that Bill Frazier noted the same discrepancy in his post in digest #3306. Bill, did you ever get an answer? Of course if anyone else can shed some light on this, that would be appreciated as well. Thanks. - --Dave Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:34:37 -0600 From: Ludwig <Bluestar792 at netscape.net> Subject: Buying Hops Plants Hi Everybody Where can I buy hops plants? I would like to grow my own. George - -- Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 20:10:35 -0800 From: "Shogun007" <ShoGun007 at SBCGlobal.net> Subject: re:Dry Hopping A lager Russ asks about dry hopping his Pilsener and carbating during secondary. Russ - I'd highly recommend that you NOT dry hop your pilsener. Dry hopping is a technique that is proven to create some un-wanted flavors (like chewing on dried lemon pythe) in a pilsener. Great in a pale ale, ipa, barley wine, but I'd hate to see you do this to your first pilsener. If you are absolutely set on it, at least split the batch and only dry hop half of it. Carbonation isn't required until you are ready to serve the beer. Once you have let the pilsener sit in cold storage for a while (lagering), then keg and force carbonate (or bottle). Charley Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 20:26:20 -0800 From: "Shogun007" <ShoGun007 at SBCGlobal.net> Subject: re: I have been drinking heavily this evening.... Al and Dave are on the digest? I've been away too long. I've finally finished the remodel on my basement (new home 2 years ago), ready start brewing again. Its been a year now. Hi Al, Hi Dave, long time no email... If you're wondering about the email address, we bought a Japanese restaurant and put in a sushi bar. Keeps the wife busy. And just to make this worth posting on hbd - we have Asahi and Kirin and Sapporo. I like Asahi best, goes great with tempura. Charley Burns [still in northern cal, but no longer on my mountain :(] Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 01:19:00 -0500 From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com Subject: 15 gal plastic cylindroconicals Interesting post on 15 gal plastic cylindroconicals in <http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/4190.html#4190-27>. I've been fermenting in plastic buckets for ~15 years. Never saw a reason to switch. I clean them with bleach and a bit of detergent followed by rinsing with boiled/cooled water. I try to avoid scratching, but am not overly worried about tiny/invisible scratches. BTW, I've worked many years in microbiology labs so understand the importance of -- and have much practical experience with -- sanitation and sterility. I've never made the perfect beer, but cannot attribute any of the imperfections of my beers to infection or chlorine residue. Rod - If you get one of those plastic cylindroconicals, please tell the HBD about it. From the web site, it's hard to tell what kind of outlet valve they have. Cheerio! Peter A. Ensminger Syracuse, NY http://hbd.org/ensmingr Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 22:19:18 -0800 (PST) From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Conical Cooling Experiment Vol. 1....Any Refrigeration Experts Dave spaket thus: "I have a 31 gallon conical fermenter. It is covered with insulation and hasa 6 foot coil running through the inside, through which a cooled solution flows. The cooled solution is cooled in the freezer. I was able to cool 30 gallons of water 26 degrees below ambient temperature using this setup. Specifically, I went from 70 degrees to 44 degrees. I think I could have gone lower, but decided that 44 degrees was low enough for now. It took about a day and a half to achieve this temperature. (snip)Given how much I cooled the volume of water, over the 36 hour period, is this enough cooling capacity to hold 30 gallons of vigorously fermenting beer at, say, 68 degrees if the ambient temp was 80 degrees?" Armed with the calculations provided by Steve A. in digest #3903-15: http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3909.html#3909-15 the rest is relatively simple. You didn't mention what kind of SG wort you're talking about, but given Steve's upper bound scenario (more or less) of an 1.120 barleywine, ("Like a 15gal fermenter capable of handling 1.120SG barleywines with a (120*15*0.50/24hrs)37.5kcal/hr.") we can extrapolate a worst-case. So for 30 gallons of the same wort, we're talking about 75 kcal/hr, or about 300 btu/hr. As Steve correctly pointed out, this is not a huge amouont of heat to remove. Your current setup lowering 30 gallons 24 def F over 36 hours works out to 541 btu/hr. Given that you're PROBABLY not going to routinely ferment 30 gallons of 1.120 wort, your improvised recirc chiller would seem to have more than enough capacity. Kent Fletcher Brewing in So Cal Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:36:29 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: Dryhopping a Lager Russ in Nairobi writes, >Have my first lager ever (a Pilsener) ... >I would like to dry hop with Saaz ... >Any ideas? My suggestion is DON'T ! Dry hopping produces a somewhat weedy character in a beer in addition to the floral aroma. This weedy flavor and big aroma work well in ales, but is completely wrong and out-of-style in a lager, particularly a pilsner. Dryhopping is primarily a UK ale process, tho' it also appears in Sticke (special altbier) and some Belgian ales. It's a mistake in a pils. >I also am confused about when to force carbonate (if at all) during > secondary. I have read that it is good not to ferment under pressure. It's an advanced topic, but there are times when fermenting under pressure is preferable. >So do I keep releasing the pressure during the lagering, and then >force carbonare after lagering is finished? Modern German practice is to lager under 0.5 to 0.6 bar of overpressure(above atmospheric) according to Kunze. This leaves the beer with appropriate levels of carbonation for serving. The lager vessels are fitted with pressure relief valves to prevent excess pressure. If the beer doesn't develop the appropriate pressure then krausen is added. For homebrew you can afford to be more extravagant in your use of CO2. If you want you can keep the lagering pressure low and add carbonation later. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 04:42:28 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: Fully Automated Brewing System: Motor driven aggitator Caryl writes ..., >I've decided to go with a motor driven stirrer of some sort with my fully >automated brewery design. This is so I won't run the risk of getting a >stuck sparge during the mash (RIMS recirculation). You mean a stuck recirculation, not sparge - no ? > [..] grain under a false bottom [...] >I made a filter out of stainless mesh that is shaped like a sock. [...] > keeps all the >particles in the mash tun and out of my pump. Ehhhh - lets say all the really big particles. Mash liquor is chock full of particles that can't be filtered this way. >But in wonder if that'd be enough especially since I only brew wheat beer >with typically 60-70% wheat. Maybe I just need to use rice hulls or >something. I don't know. I need to find a way that is stuck sparge proof >and easy to clean. and cheap. Your goal seems to be to maintain a decent recirculation rate despite your 'sticky' mash grist. Tough problem. - -- A stuck recirculation can occur when you create a significant pressure differential between the mash surface and the liquor under the false bottom. That is, your pump is creating enough suction to squeeze the grist tight against the plate and this closes all the nice little gaps between grist particles where wort flows. After you fully stick the mash the only option is to stir and reset the gristbed. There are several approaches to solving this problem. 1/ Create a wort grant. This is a chamber below the mash tun where wort collects under gravity feed alone. The chamber is open to atmosphere (probably needs breather uptube to prevent spillage) so that you can pump the chamber dry without creating any additional suction pressure under the plate. Grants prevent sticking by preventing the suction that causes the pressure differential, but a grant fill rate is determined by the <grist, FB, gravity (siphon levels)> design of the system. If you use a sticky grist, like 70% wheat, then the flow to the grant may not be sufficient to feed your RIMS pump - depends on the design. 2/ Rakes. The idea here is that instead of stirring the entire grist you use rakes (small blades) to cut thru the upper layers of the gristbed and this improves flow. A properly designed rake system won't produce nearly the amount of particulate as a stirrer. The commercial 'state of the art' rake systems are combined with a manometer which senses the pressure differential between under the plate and over the plate mash liquor. The rake height is controlled so that the rake tines are lowered as the differential increase (implies slow flow) and raised as the differential decreases. It would be pretty simple to add a manometer measure to a conventional mash-tun. I suspect there is a simple and ingenious mechanism to raise and lower HB scale rakes too. 3/ Rice hulls. Well really this is about improving the flow rate by increasing the amount of gaps and voids in the grist so there is more porous space for flow to occur. I really like this idea - it most directly attacks the problem IMO. I do have misgivings about rice hulls. Rice hulls have very high levels of silicates. Silicates released to the wort give an unpleasant bitterness. I tend to use hulls only late in the mash and prefer avoiding them altogether. I can't honestly say I've had any flavor problems attributable to rice hulls, but the potential is there. Otherwise these are almost ideal - cheap, effective, biodegradable, a good compost/soil amendment.. Has anyone tried oat hulls or soy hulls ? I suspect they should work well too. - ---------- A possible approach to the problem would be to throttle the pump (or outlet valve) on a RIMS/HERMS system based on a manometer differential pressure so that sticking doesn't occur. This is effectively what RIMS brewers do 'by eye' when they reduce the pump rate to prevent sticking. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 07:24:21 -0600 From: "ktegels" <ktegels at msn.com> Subject: Northdown and Horizon Greetings, I'd thinking about trying these two hops -- Northdown as aroma, Horizon as bittering -- in a light American Ale. I'm also thinking about using White Labs East Coast Ale yeast with it. As usual, I'm just guessing about this mix. Does anybody have any comments about these hops or yeast? Any other ideas? The goal is to make a good base beer for possible use as a fruit or honey brew. Thanks! Kent [633.3, 267.8] Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 08:59:07 -0500 From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam at earthlink.net> Subject: RE: Care and cleaning of plastic A couple of posts were on the topic of the care and cleaning of plastic fermenters. Lots has been said pro and con WRT the use of plastic so there's no use to repeat what is in the archives but my personal experiences are: Several years ago I went back to plastic primaries because it's much easier on my back than carrying glass carboys. My experience has been that I've had no sanitation problems with plastic fermenters (knock on wood). I use no scrubbies. When I'm finished with a batch of beer, the yeast goes down the toilet (good for the septic system --- but that's another topic). Warm to hot water and a paper towel are all that's need to clean the fermenter. I've never needed anything stronger. Once clean, I fill it with water and chlorine bleach and let it sit for several days. This is then drained and air dried. When it comes time to brewing again, I fill and sanitize with iodophor solution, empty and air dry upside down to keep beasties from falling in. My fermenters have lasted for years (knock on that wood again). Dave Houseman Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 09:29:45 -0500 From: "Steve Jones" <stjones1 at chartertn.net> Subject: RE: Cynmar; TMS Cynmar will take orders from individuals. I have purchased 2L Erlenmeyer flasks ($12 IIRC), magnetic stir bars, culture tubes, media, tubing brushes, etc. Easy online ordering, great prices, fast service - all you need it a credit card. NAYYJASC. As far as the TMS price increase goes, I bought one a few years ago and am very happy with it. I was thinking of buying another, but at the new price I will not. They say it was a 'price restructuring, with quantity discounts' at the request of their larger customers. But I surmise that their larger customers were complaining that individual sales are undercutting their profits, so TMS has responded with a restructuring that will add 75% to the new price for individual orders, but only 15% to orders of 25 or more (20% on 10-24, 25% on 5-9). But the bottom line is that if you can get 4 buddies together to buy 5 of them, you can get them for $110 + shipping, which is still a bargain compared to a finished job from one of the biggies. And methinks Zymie has nearly completed his journey down the path of transition from thinking like a homebrewer to thinking like a homebrew equipment manufacturer. Thanks to Rod, my next conical will probably come from US Plastics. Don't forget to enter your vote in the AHA's Board of Advisor's election. Your voice counts, but only if you speak it! Steve Jones Johnson City, TN http://hbd.org/franklin Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 09:35:49 -0500 From: "Jonathan Royce" <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com> Subject: Re: Cleaning Plastic Rod Tussing asks: "I know that lots of homebrewers are using plastic (buckets, minibrew conicals, v-vessels, etc) fermentors and I wonder what is the best way to clean but not scratch?" Well, I've only been using plastic for a few months as a fermenter, but I've used a plastic bucket for bottling for well over a year. My cleaning regime includes Ivory liquid dish soap, some high pressure hot water, a bottle brush and a regular sponge. As far as I can tell, my plastic buckets (and glass fermenters for that matter), are as clean and scratch free as the day that I bought them. I've yet to have an infection, so that seems to confirm my opinion that things are clean. Personally, I don't understand the attraction of using PBW or other more expensive cleansers. I've tried PBW and it seems to be no better (or worse) than the dish liquid. That said, I always clean my equipment before and after every brew session, and I always clean things as soon as I am done using them, thus preventing anything from drying on. BTW, I use Ivory soap because it is fragrance free, dye free and it seems to rinse clean very easily. HTH, Jonathan Woodbury Brewing Co. www.woodburybrewingco.com Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:03:26 +0000 From: "A. J. delange" <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: Things Chicago water is very "nominal" - about what you would expect from a large city's plant - and as such is suitable for almost all styles of beer. For nothern (Burton) style ales the sulfate will need to be augmented by adding gypsum. For Bohemian style Pilsners dilution with one or two parts of distilled water would probably be a good idea (mostly to cut the sulfate down to half or a third). The alkalnity is at about 2 mEq/L offset by 1.5 mEq/L calcium and almost 1 mEq/L magnesium for a residual alkalinity of about 1.4 (70 ppm as CaCo3) and this a little higher than desireable but not so much as couldn't be compensated for with a little crystal or caramel malt. Allowing water to stand will indeed allow chlorine to escape but it will take longer than it does if the water is vigorously aerated. The problem is that most large city water supplies are now chloraminated and chloramine escapes at a much slower rate than chlorine. Boiling for an hour or two will remove most chloramine but treatment with Campden tablets or filtration over acitvated charcoal will also do the job. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Some of the discussion on controllers makes me think that there is confusion concerning the "proportional" associated with the P in PID and proportional output. The job of the PID controller is to call for power dependent upon the difference between the set point (what you dial in) and the process variable (temperature). The requested power is proportional to this difference (hence the term proportional control) and the type depends on whether the temperature is below (controller calls for heat) or above (controller calls for cooling) the set point. This is true only when the error signal is within the "proportional band". Thus the Steve Lane's surmise that he's getting more heat if he increases the set point is correct provided that the increased error he is inducing is within the proportional band. What is effectively being done here is to change the "proportional gain" or "band". IOW the controller is not tuned properly and a better approach would be to go through the recommended tuning procedure (which includes setting the integral and differential gains). In the best of worlds this is done by loading the system and pushing the "autotune" button. Otherwise the procedure can be a bit cumbersome. Also note that the tuning assumes that the system is linear i.e. that the amount of heat delivered to the load is proportional to what the controller demands. This is essentally true where the heat is electric - much less so when the controller operates a gas valve. In brewing applications there will be no chiller and so the control is definitely non linear on that side. Autotuning routines account for this. The other part of the story is concerned with the type of output signal that the controller sends when it wants heat. It can send a current (4 ma ~ no heat, 20 ma ~ full heat), a voltage (0 V ~ no heat, 5V ~ full heat) or open and close switch contacts for a fraction of a cycle time corresponding to desired percent heat. For example, if the cycle time is set to 10 seconds, 1 second on, 9 seconds off corresponds to a demand for 10% power. This mode is referred to as "proportional" by many writers. Someone posted the other day that his bypass valve was shuttling back and forth rapidly. I suspect this was a case where proportional output control was being used with a short cycle time. Setting the cycle time to a longer period will eliminate rapid actuation but may result in poor control if the thermal time constant of the load is shorter than the controller's cycle time. One controller that I have used comes up with a recommended cycle time when the autotune function is run. The operator then has the option of accepting this cycle time or using one he likes better. In general, one uses the longest cycle time that will allow good control. PID controllers are wonderful things given that they are properly applied and properly tuned. Tuning is a must and is as much an art as a science. It is important to understand that a good tuning for protein rest may not be a good tuning for sachharification rest (programmable controllers often allow changing tune sets in the middle of a profile). Even so, PID controllers do have their limitations and the new "fuzzy logic" controllers promise to overcome some of these. A.J. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:28:20 +0000 From: rscotty at attbi.com Subject: RE: Chili Beer Questions ??? In Digest #4190, Spencer Graham asks about Chili Beer and the heat factor. Spencer - you are correct in your assusmption that heat is a result of the quantity of peppers introduced into the beer. I've been a chili beer fan for some time - we have a local brew pub that produces a fine example. I produced my own a few years back and while it wasn't what I was shooting for, my experience may be of some value to you. I suggest that you use Japilino peppers or Hatch Chiles - roasting them will produce a more complex, and in my opinion, better flavor. I don't know where you could obtain them in your local area. Here in Colorado, we can get roasted Hatch chilis in season at several road-side stands. Looking back at my brewing notes, I added 1 lb to the primary fermenter. I removed the seeds (important) and steamed them first to make them as sanitary as possible. Had I stopped there, I believe the resulting beer would have been close to what I had in mind. I added 1/8 lb Serano peppers to the secondary though and this pushed it over the top. It was warm. Well, it was more than warm. My neighbor / tester called it "liquid razor blades". The good news was that after approximately 1 year, it mellowed quite nicely and was a fine chili beer. Its final moniker was "El Diablo - The Beer From Hell". Hope this helps and good luck. Rich Scotty Capsicum Specialist The Crapshoot Brewery Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 10:33:49 -0500 From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net> Subject: SS Scrubbies and Not! Brewsters: As Fate would have it, my SO put steel ( underlined) wool pads on the shopping list. When I went to buy them I discovered that the SS pads available last year were gone and a new pad listed as "steel wool non-rusting" or reduced rust or whatever. I suspect these pads are just plain steel and have an additive in the soap which reduces the rusting. I would not use them to clean SS. Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 08:21:11 -0800 From: "Don" <don at steinfillers.com> Subject: Re: Motorized Mash Mixing In HBD 4190; Caryl Hornberger Slone asks for input regarding motor driven agitator This subject was fairly well covered in Brewing Tehcniques Nov/Dec issue 1994 by Don Putt. The article is online: http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.6/put.html Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 09:25:17 -0700 From: Roger & Roxy Whyman <rwhyman at mho.com> Subject: TMS Scotty, ever hear of supply and demand? It's the American way. Get over it or don't buy their product. Pretty simple. Roger Whyman Parker, CO Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 12:16:49 EST From: TomAGardner at cs.com Subject: Wyeast 3767 Roeselare yeast? I have been thinking about brewing a sour brown ale and couldn't find much info about the yeast/bacteria involved, when low and behold I saw this yeast in a homebrew catalog. "Wyeast 3763 Roeselare yeast from a small Belgian brewery, this mixture of yeast and saccharomyces, brettanomyces, and lactic acid bacteria is balanced to produce classic Belgian sour brown and red beers, without the need for additional yeast or bacteria additions. Medium flocculation, attenuation 60-76%. Temperature range 55-80 F." Anyone have any experience with this product? Would it work to add it to an already fermented beer? TIA, Tom Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 13:44:06 -0500 (EST) From: Ryan Neily <ryan at neily.net> Subject: Nitrogen/Co2 Tank for Regular Beer? I am about to get my 20 Pound CO2 Tank filled, and I wanted to know if getting it filled with 25% Nitorgen and 75% CO2 would affect the taste of other types of beer when I am not dispensing Guinness. I sometimes get Guinness kegs on special occasions, but dont have 2 CO2 tanks. Would it be sensible to use Co2/Nitrogen mix for everything? - -- Ryan Neily ryan at neily.net Random Quote: "Horsepower sells cars, raw torque wins races... - Carrol Shelby" Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 10:47:43 -0800 From: "Wayne Holder" <zymie at charter.net> Subject: Greed greed n 1: excessive desire to acquire or possess more (esp material wealth) than one needs or deserves 2: reprehensible acquisitiveness; insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the deadly sins) [syn: avarice, covetousness, rapacity, avaritia] differentiate v 1: mark as different; "We distinguish several kinds of maple" [syn: distinguish, separate, secern, secernate, severalize, tell, tell apart] 2: be a distinctive feature, attribute, or trait; sometimes in a very positive sense [syn: distinguish, mark] 3: calculate a derivative; take the derivative; in mathematics [ant: integrate] 4: become different during development; of cells 5: become distinct wholesale \Whole"sale`\, a. 1. Pertaining to, or engaged in, trade by the piece or large quantity; selling to retailers or jobbers rather than to consumers; as, a wholesale merchant; the wholesale price. retail \Re"tail\, n. [F. retaille piece cut off, shred, paring, or OF. retail, from retailler. See Retail, v.] The sale of commodities in small quantities or parcels; -- opposed to wholesale; sometimes, the sale of commodities at second hand. Those who can differentiate wholesale from retail will surely be able to differentiate greed from business. Just because someone accidently stumbles into buying at wholesale price levels does not mean that they are entitled forever. If any pissed of keg resellers, Socially concious types, or people that refer to themselves in the 3rd person would like to continue this discussion off of the digest, I would be more than happy to oblige. Wayne Holder AKA Zymie Long Beach, CA http://www.zymico.com "All Paid for by our good customers" - --Lynne O'Connor - -- Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 14:02:27 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: Removing ... Labels Scott D. Braker-Abene writes, >What ever came of the great CLINITEST debate? > >hehehehehehhheheehhhehehh Funny that you ask at this time, Scott. I visited Dave Burley late this past September specifically to hash out the Clinitest issue. We eventually came to a complete resolution of the matter and celebrated that evening by downing a terrific bottle of cognac between us on Dave's back porch.(Dave is a superb host and the cognac read <1/3% reducing sugars on the Clinitest scale). Next day I couldn't recall anything of the resolution, and I am certain Dave spiked the cognac ! Attempts to form a second resolution have failed yet I have specific and credible intelligence that Dave's garage and vineyard harbor chemical and biological weapons of mass fermentation(WMF) on a scale unimagined on this forum. Rumor has it that the complete and detailed resolution to the Clinitest debacle are encoded on AlK's modified X chromosome - but Al refuses to supply samples. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 14:04:42 -0500 From: Jeff & Ellen <JeffNGladish at ij.net> Subject: re: pepper beers Spencer Graham wrote, "I am intrigued by the idea of this type of Chili beer. Is it a HOT flavor that only a select few will tolerate, or is it simply a "pepper connotation" taste? I imagine it would depend upon the type of peppers and amount used. My brewing buddy and I like spicy stuff... but we want others to like it as well. Suggestions as to an "introductory chili beer"? Where can we get the peppers to use? Do we need to roast them ourselves or are they bought that way?" I've had good success using pablano peppers in beer. They provide a slight amount of heat, but not enough to hurt anyone except the most sensitive pallets. They are the same peppers used in Mexican cooking, such as chiles rellenos and have a very distinctive smell and taste. Pablanos are available at better grocery stores. I have used them in beers with low hopping rates most successfully, but also had good flavor in a Dusseldorf Altbier. My current favorite recipe is for a Pablano Belgian White Beer. It tastes a lot better than it sounds. I have found that roasting the peppers over a burner for a few minutes then scraping off the outer, glossy peel helps keep oils out of the finished beer, promoting better head retention. I always remove the seeds and most of the white pulp on the inside of the pepper and usually cook them for an hour on low heat (200 F) to kill any bacteria they may be harboring. Lately I have been adding four of the peppers to a five gallon keg and letting them marinate until I get the proper flavor and heat. Sometimes this only takes a few days. Good luck. Send me a bottle. Jeff Gladish, Tampa, FL Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 14:45:58 -0500 From: "Ian Watson" <realtor at niagara.com> Subject: Toronto Brewpubs Hi all Allan Meeker asked about Toronto brewpub recommendations. I only know of The Amsterdam, which has an AMAZING stout, but it is only available on tap. They DO offer several beers in 6 packs. You can check out: http://www.bartowel.com/amster.phtml For more Toronto beer info, see: http://www.bartowel.com/bar2.phtml Ian Watson St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada [235, 71.9] Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 16:37:31 -0600 From: "Eric Stiers" <ewstiers at chorus.net> Subject: Subject: more PID questions >On the HLT, it seems to take quite a while for the liquor to get up to that >last 10 degrees of ramp. In the past, I've just run the set point to say >400 to increase the output and once the liquor gets to where I want it, I >set the temp. back down to 175 or what ever set point I desire. Am I >fooling myself to think that I am getting the water heated up quicker by >dialing up the set point? A lot of PIDs have a 'control band' around the set point in which the PID is actually doing it's work of turning the power on and off. Below this band, the power is usually 100% on, and above the band the power is 0% on. If your controller has a 10 degree band, it might heat very quickly up to that point (100% on) and then scale back the heat levels once the band is reached. If this is the case, you can usually turn up the gain or proportional control to shrink the control band a bit. To test this, fill up the tank and turn up the proportional control in increments until the temp starts to oscillate around the set point, indicating that your proportional control is too high. Then back off the proportional control 15% or so and add a little integral control until the system reaches a stable temperature. Derivative control is not needed in 95% of the cases. Another thing that might be happening is that your heater could be undersized to the point that it's working near its' limit to achieve the 175 degree temp. You could check this by just turning on the heater 100% and seeing where the temp maxes out. If this is the case, you need to insulate your tank better or get a bigger heater. >I was told that the controllers not only control the >amount of time that the heater elements are on but it also controls the >percentage energy going to the heater so that the heater isn't getting a >burst of 100% power when it is in the on mode. This really depends on your PID controller and relays. Some systems can indeed control individual power cycles delivered to the heater, but since they have to be able to switch on and off in 1/60 of a second or less, you need to have a solid-state relay to do it - mechanical relays can't keep up that kind of pace. The problem you can run into is that having an element on at 100% for too long can get the surface of the element so hot that it begins burning your wort - if you find grey goo on your heater after a brew session, it's likely getting too hot. If this is the case, you might be able to lower the cycle time of the PID (the amount of time that the heater stays on/off at a time) so that the heater temp doesn't have a chance to get as hot. You can also use multiple heating elements in series to lower the local power density. If this doesn't work, you might need to move to a solid-state relay and a different PID so that the power is coming on in much shorter bursts. Good luck- Eric ================== Eric Stiers ewstiers at chorus.net Madison, WI Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 15:14:49 -0800 (PST) From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com> Subject: TMS Greed Do I understand this correctly? Let's see. TMS is basically a wholesale operation that sells some directly? They have a product that has the potential to be wildly (they hope) popular, but the market is unknown and markedly subject to the whims of homebrewing chic. They want to sell all they can but do not want to have to do all involved in being a manufacturing retailer. So, to spread sales as far as possible, without having to hire a bunch of sales people, they introduce a (shudder) middleman (person). Problem. The mm(p) insists on making a profit (and check wholesale vs retail markup on other products, homebrew supplies, cars, refrigerators). TMS is making some profit, but reason dictates they not make less. Soooo, 'their' retail price goes up to a level that they can serve as a manufacturer/wholesaler, still make the same profit and leave all serious sales volume to the local homebrew shop or on-line WalMart operation. The local (or WalMart) operation can then charge what they can get up to the suggested retail making a profit. TMS could hardly undercut its sales partnerships...huumm maybe the greed is at the local level? heeheehee Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 20:03:38 -0500 From: "Jonathan Royce" <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com> Subject: I've Got a Cold Box! ;-) Finally finished my outdoor fermentation temperature controller. Perfect for people like me who are running out of space in the house due to an ever-increasing inventory of brewing equipment. Many thanks to Ken Schwartz and Bill Bufkin for the inspiration. Let me know what you think! http://www.woodburybrewingco.com/FTC.html Jonathan Woodbury Brewing Co. www.woodburybrewingco.com Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 20:45:25 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: DCL yeast identity/on a rant Stephen Cavan writes ..... >With the second call from C&B I was told to tell customers that >the lager yeasts were basically the same, and that brewers >would not notice any difference. .... >I surmise that either DCL is telling the truth about the yeast, namely that >they have one ale and one lager which they repack and label differently just >to hoodwink the brewing world, OR they are lying i.e., the yeasts are >different but they don't want to be bothered repacking into smaller packs >some strains. Almost certainly the latter. Look - if the yeast were the same then you have a 120yo company lying to it's primary customers (craft and industrial brewers) about the yeast identity. Why would they admit such a lie to an HB market where they have minor financial interest. They could just as easily print several new 11gram sachet labels and double their HB market vs open themselves to criticism and even lawsuits from their primary customers. What you were told was that these yeast were "basically the same", and that "[home] brewers would not notice any difference". This is undoubtedly based on DCLs exceedingly low opinion of HBers. http://www.dclyeast.co.uk/DCL_Main/main_brewing/homebrew_index.htm states ... "Homebrewing has recently and gradually changed into a means to produce cheap beers as a most affordable hobby." DCL thinks homebrewing is about making cheap beers and that HBers certainly wouldn't notice the 'subtle' differences between two different lager or ale strains since we just brew infected cheap swill from kits. I surely wish that Lallemand had the same range of yeasts in dry form. They certainly appraise the HB market more accurately. ========= Joe Gerteis says ... >Second, I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop on >Marc Sedam's issue with the store in Texas. Has this >community lost its teeth What else is there to say ? Marc is a longtime HBD poster with extraordinary contributions re mash hopping , FWH, and starch hydrolysis, a prolific author in the HB magazines, and the guy who made WLP-833 a reality and he's always been above making personal attacks. Ms. O'Conner has posted some interesting info to the 'gest, and runs a shop that stocks some interesting HB wares. Her shop, St.Pat's has been the target of customer complaints in a remarkable number of posts starting in the early 1990s and continuing to the present. Most seem to relate to order fulfillment problems, return policy, shipping costs, etc. . Ms. O'Conner refuses to discuss her store policy as it relates to rejection of customers - even in the general case - and yes I've asked. Marc's been on this forum long enough to make a highly credible representation that he's a level headed honest guy and that his legitimate order was rejected for some "non-business" reason. Why should we deal with a vendor that appears to give a decent guy like Marc Sedam a hard time ? If he's getting blackballed for no good reason - as seems to be the case - then I see no reason to reward that vendor with any of my business. I've invited Lynne to correct any erroneous impressions left in the wake of this stinker. She has declined. I take her silence as condemnation of a policy which *seems* to be based on personal vendetta or worse. You are all free to choose other interpretations. -Steve Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 22:30:08 -0500 (EST) From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net> Subject: Re: Efficiency Tell me about it. I sat down today and figured out my efficiency and was a bit shocked. I'm at a loss to explain my sudden increase except the grind. I've been all grain for some time and my extract effeciency has been lower than i've expected all along. I've used the same mill at the hbs store and while I have improved my technique i've only improved flavor and style (color/body) not effeciency. My total grain bill this time was: 10# Petes Pale Malt 1/4# Petes Dark Crystal (80L or 120L not certain) 1/2# Breiss Toasted Malt My mash was 15 qts, for a soupy 1.5qt per lb ratio. I know for a fact I hit this volume since I use a 2qt measuring cup to fill my pot for heating my mash water. I added 4 gallons to the mash tun for the sparge. Again using the 2qt measuring cup to fill my pot for heating. The pot was empty when I refilled. Total volume in my cooler read 8 gallons with grain and bazooka T-screen so at best we are talking a total of 7 to 7.5 gallons of fluid. These are typical amounts i've used in the past so I know about what my levels are +/- about a half gallon max. I really really need to mark my pots and fermenter. I lose about a 1/2-3/4 gallon in my boil and my pot leaves about a 1/4 to 1/2 gallon behind. Now Promash tells me, if I adjust efficiency up till it matches SG, that i'm at 81% efficiency for a 5.0 gallon batch at 1.062. My batch could be 5.0 gallons in the fermenter, but I suspect its not since the 10 gallon fermentor is definatly around the average for a 5.5-6.0 gallons. I'll know for sure when I transfer to my secondary. For a 5.5 gallon batch i'm at 88% per promash. Maybe my hydrometer decided to go out on me? I tested it in tap water. Reads a hair above 1.000 at about 63 degrees (calibrated for 60). Maybe Pete's Pale Malt has more extractable sugars or more enzyme action than I'm use to? I cant find any info on this brand so far. The only two factors I changed (dammit, should have changed just one) was mash time and grind. Well make that 3. I used Pete's Pale Malt this time versus Marris Otter Pale Malt. Before then I brewed a few Belgian Wits, Hefeweisens and an Octoberfest with similar lower than expected effeciencies. I've always had to add a pound or two extra grain at least to hit my target gravity. Comments welcome! Steven St.Laurent 403forbidden.net [580.2,181.4] Rennerian On Sat, 8 Mar 2003, Fred L Johnson wrote: > Dear Steven: > > If 10 pounds of pale malt gave you 5.5 gallons of 1.062 wort, that would be > a 95% efficiency. A little unbelievable. Carefully measure your wort > volume. > -- > Fred L. Johnson > Apex, North Carolina, USA > Return to table of contents
[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]
HTML-ized on 03/10/03, by HBD2HTML v1.2 by KFL
webmaster at hbd.org, KFL, 10/9/96