---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

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        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

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Contents:
  1st All Grain Batch Procedure (Michael Fross)
  Spoofer virus (David Harsh)
  Re: Subject: Fermenter recirculation #4 - results (David Towson)
  Re: Greed (Charles)
  PID operation (David Harsh)
  10th Annual BUZZ Off Home Brew Competition ("Christopher Clair")
  A buck a lb project - refridgerant cooler for small conocals ("rzukosky")
  re. lactic acid vs lactobacillus ("John Misrahi")
  re: RIMs Design + manifolds + ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Greed? (Donald and Melissa Hellen)
  RIMS with two Controllers ("David Boice")
  Re: extreme lag in primary (Brian Dube)
  Another View of CAP ("Peter Garofalo")
  RE TMS ("Sven Pfitt")
  Water Treatment ("Trevor White")
  AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ("greg man")
  Lambic Digest ("David Craft")
  RE:  Buying Hops Plants (Bill Tobler)
  Extraction Efficiency and milling ("Dave Burley")
  Chili Beer (Jim Bermingham)
  BLATANT AD - ProMash Version 1.8.a is Released! ("Jeffrey Donovan")
  RE: Buying Hops Plants (Chad Holley)
  RE: Care and cleaning of plastic (Michael Hartsock)
  Sources of Hops (Jason Poll)
  Re: Buying Hops Plants (Jeff Renner)
  9th Annual Boston Homebrew Competition RESULTS! ("John B. Doherty")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 08:15:09 -0600
From: Michael Fross <michael at fross.org>
Subject: 1st All Grain Batch Procedure

Hello everyone,

I'm getting ready to do my first all grain batch, and I was coming up
with the steps I was going to go through on brew day. I thought it
might be helpful to share those steps with you and get your tips and
opinions as well as maybe helping other new all grain brewers.

So, I would appreciate it if folks with more experience than I, could
look this long message over and let me know if I've got mistakes or if
there is a better way of doing this.  I'll be printing this out and
using it as a guide as I brew in a few weeks so any help would be
appreciated.

Thanks again.

Frosty

- -----------------------------------------------------

My setup is 2 gott 10 gallon coolers, one with a false bottom, and the
other with phils sparge arm. Nothing to fancy. I'll be making 5
gallons of an american pale ale using an infusion mash.

1. Crush the grain the night before or have my brewshop due it if they
don't want to much money to do so.  I have a corona mill, so I know
it's not the best.

2. Heat up 7 gallons of water to 180F and transfer into mashtun
cooler. Put on the lid and let it sit for 10 minutes. This will heat
it up and get it ready. When done, transfer it back to the kettle and
heat it (or add room temperature water) to 11F degrees higher than
your mash temperature. For this batch, it'll be 163F since I am going
to mash at 152F.

3. Transfer the correct amount of mash water from the kettle into the
mash tun. I'm going to use about 1 gallon for every three lbs of
grain. This batch has 10 lbs of grain, so that'd be about 3.5 gallons.
I don't know if this needs to be more precise.

4. Add your grist slowly and make sure you stir really well.  I don't
know if aeration is an issue at this point, but I doubt it.   Adjust
the temperature with hot water or cold water if needed to hit your
mash temperature.

5. Cover and let sit for however long you will be mashing.  For my 1st
recipe, I'll be waiting for an hour.  However, you can now get your
sparge setup.  Bring 5 gallons of water to 168F degrees, and make sure
your Phil's sparge arm (or whatever you use) are working properly.
Adjust the sparge water PH to 5.2 - 5.6 using Gypsum.  Put on the lid
to keep the temperature fairly constant.

6. When mashing is complete, you should check for conversion. I don't
have any ticture of Idodine, but I've heard that Iodophor can be used.
Anyone have any experience with this? Where can one find tincture of
idodine?
 
7. Draw off a quart fairly quickly (about 2 min) then close the valve
and pour it over the grains. Repeat this until the wort is pretty
clear. According to Miller, this should take about 15 minutes. If it's
not clear by then, you need to increase your runoff rate. If it clears
too quickly, slow that rate down.

8. Time to sparge.  I'll be putting my "First Wort Hopping" hops in
the kettle at this stage.  You need to get a bunch of the wort from
the lauter tun into the kettle.  Draw off at a slower rate than you
did the initial runnings and stop when there is two inches of wort on
top of the grains.  This should take about 20 to 30 minutes.

9. Start the sparge water and slowly draw off at about the same rate
the sparge water is entering the vessel. This part of the operation
will take between 45 and 60 minutes. As the mash thins, you will need
to slowly increase your rate, but (according to Miller again) this
should be about .44 quarts per minute average, with it being slower at
first and a bit faster at the end.

10. You should end your sparge when the spec gravity of the runoff
falls under 1.010.  I know you can go lower, but I don't mind
sacrificing a touch of grain to keep the tannins and icky stuff out.

11. I think that's it.  Bring to boil, add bittering hops, etc.  Most
of us understand this part of it.



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 11:02:02 -0500
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Spoofer virus

Greetings-

If you are a digest subscriber and use Microsoft Outlook, you may be 
infected with the spoofer/virus W32/Yaha.g at MM

PLEASE CHECK YOUR SYSTEM!

The only common thread in many of the recipients and faked senders have 
been being on HBD.

Note:  when checking your system, remember that even though it causes 
system crashes and uses up hogs resources, that doesn't mean the 
windows operating system qualifies as a virus.

Thanks for saving me from deleting 30 messages a day...

Dave Harsh




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Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 11:26:05 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Fermenter recirculation #4 - results

At 05:55 PM 3/8/03 -0500, you wrote:
>Maybe you could pump the wort through a coil in an ice bath( or cold-water 
>bath) as long as your pumping it around~

Hi Bob.  That's one of the things I have been considering, and I already 
have the equipment needed to do it.  But it is a bit of a bother, and I am 
not yet convinced that recirculation is really buying me all that much.  It 
seems to speed things up a bit, but I'm not yet convinced the end result is 
any better.  It certainly does increase the amount of blowoff, though, and 
that might be worth something in terms of getting rid of crud.  I'll just 
have to play with it some more before deciding what to do.

      Best regards,
                             Dave 



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Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 09:08:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles at thestewarts.com
Subject: Re: Greed

On Saturday, 8 March, 2003, Wayne Holder aka Zymie admonishes several members of
the HBD for daring to complain about TMS's 75% price increase:

[Long & pointless quotations from dictionary redacted]

> Those who can differentiate wholesale from retail will surely be able to
> differentiate greed from business.

Are greed and business mutually exclusive?  Corporations can be greedy, too -
just because it's a "business decision" doesn't make it immune from greed (not
that I've labeled it that).  And it IS hard to differentiate wholesale from
retail when the company runs 2/3 page full color ads in Zymurgy entitled
"Hoppers for Your Hops."
 
> Just because someone accidently stumbles into buying at wholesale price
> levels does not mean that they are entitled forever.

Jeez, Wayne, who claimed eternal entitlement?  And again, is responding to a 2/3
page full color ads in Zymurgy "stumbling?"  Nowhere on their web site did they
have the "wholesale only" disclaimer that your company's ads and website have.
 
> If any pissed of keg resellers, Socially concious types, or people that
> refer to themselves in the 3rd person would like to continue this discussion
> off of the digest, I would be more than happy to oblige.

First, Wayne, read my posting.  Nowhere did I say I was "pissed off".  Not once
did I express anger.  My words were "surprised" and "disappointed".  I won't
waste bandwidth on quoting Webster's definitions of surprised and disappointed
since you obviously have a copy.  Of course TMS has every right to price their
product however they want.  But I am also entitled to be disappointed when that
decision puts their product out of my budget.  Second, my postings have nothing
to do with me reselling kegs.  I wrote it as a home brewer and TMS customer,
albeit a disappointed one now.

Wayne, I respect you and your company both from the content of your postings and
quality of your products, but am puzzled by your extremely zealous defense of
TMS.  If you were to market a product - say a conical fermenter kit - to the
home brewing community, then dramatically change either quality or price, you
should have every expectation that this community will discuss it.  That's what
the HBD is all about.

Charles Stewart
Gaithersburg, Maryland,USA
Charles at TheStewarts.com
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com/brewing

Support anti-Spam legislation.
Join the fight http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 12:11:24 -0500
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: PID operation

> steve lane <tbirdusa at hotmail.com> asks:

>  In the past, I've just run the set point to say
> 400 to increase the output and once the liquor gets to where I want 
> it, I
> set the temp. back down to 175 or what ever set point I desire....

> Question two:  ...
> This brings me to the conclusion that I'm not the only thing I'm 
> controlling
> is on/off of 100% energy to the heating elements and I'm not 
> controlling any
> percentage of energy being fed to the elements.  Was I told wrong...

Well, it depends on the type of PID controller you have.  Some digital 
controllers give a fractional output by cycling the amount of time that 
the out put is on.  For example, if you want 40% of max on a continual 
basis, it will give you 100% output for 40% of the time.  These 
controllers work fairly well as PID systems in my experience which I 
admit is limited.  An analog controller will actually give you the 40% 
output.  Some digital controllers may do the same, but you may have to 
read the manual.

As far as reaching a value faster, it does make sense that raising the 
setpoint will get you there faster.  You are increasing the controller 
response in order to get more heat input.

As background, the reason PID controllers are popular is that a strict 
proportional controller (P) will always have a steady-state offset from 
the actual setpoint (mathematically, infinite time is required to reach 
the setpoint).  The integral (I)  term is added in order to remove that 
offset, but introduces an oscillation around the setpoint.  The 
derivative (D) term causes the oscillation to decay.

In a process engineering application, overshooting the setpoint and/or 
oscillation can cause problems, so PID systems are *usually* (control 
people, correct me if I'm wrong) tuned to overshoot and then decay to a 
steady value so that each oscillation is 1/4 of the previous - referred 
to as "quarter decay" by some.  These criteria are based on a 
compromise between rise time and overshoot - a faster rise time will 
give more overshoot and longer to decay.  If overshoot is not 
acceptable, you have to increase the rise time.  All of these 
measurements are based on the response from a step change in the 
control variable.

There are two control texts that I've used in the past, one by 
Stephanopolous and the other by Coughnower and Koppel and I've probably 
mispelled two out of the three names and don't feel like going upstairs 
to be sure...   Both texts have the detail if you give a rat's 
posterior.   Seems I remember more control theory than I thought...

Dave Harsh				Bloatarian Brewing League
Cincinnati, OH



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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 14:25:40 -0500
From: "Christopher Clair" <buzz at netreach.net>
Subject: 10th Annual BUZZ Off Home Brew Competition

Brewers Unlimited Zany Zymurgists (BUZZ) is proud to announce that the 2003
BUZZ Off home brew competition will be held on Saturday, June 7th at Iron
Hill Brewery & Restaurant in West Chester, PA.  For another year we will be
a qualifying event for the prestigious Masters Championship of Amateur
Brewing (MCAB) as well as the Delaware Valley Homebrewer of the Year.  All
BJCP recognized styles including meads and ciders are eligible for entry.
For complete details and forms, please visit the BUZZ web site at
http://hbd.org/buzz.

Entries will be accepted between May 12 and June 1.  For drop off and mail
in locations please refer to the BUZZ web site.  Please, do not send entries
to Iron Hill.

BJCP Judges and stewards will be needed. If you are interested please
contact me or another committee member (contact information can be found on
the web site). All judges must be BJCP certified.

Good luck and cheers!

Christopher Clair
buzz at netreach.net
http://hbd.org/buzz

"The mouth of a perfectly happy man is filled with beer."
 - Ancient Egyptian Wisdom, 2200 B.C.





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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 16:14:47 -0500
From: "rzukosky" <mrzar at ic.net>
Subject: A buck a lb project - refridgerant cooler for small conocals

Need technical assistance to design a cooling device using an auto air
conditioning compressor and an electric motor.
Specific recommendations for:
Evaporator coil length, configuration and size dia.
Capillary length and/or gas control circuit
Drier/receiver
Any thing I have not considered.

The evaporator would be attached to the conical lid and detached from
compressor unit with flex lines and quick disconnects. Electric motor would
be 1 hp as this is what I have. Temp control would be a dead band temp
control (freon bulb type) immersed in the wort. Freon R22 is the choice at
this time but could be changed to a more greenie type if the gas can perform
well within the task. Interface systems like cooled glycol or ice water in
my opinion would unnecessarily complicate the project.
I have a York piston compressor, a swash plate after market compressor and a
new 1/3 hp hermitic. It would be simpler for me to use the hermitic but then
what about all the other homebrewers who could do the used auto compressor
thing with salvage parts.
I then wouldn't have to build a walk-in to accommodate my too large for
cooler conical.

bobz  ------------ for privates mrzar at ic.net




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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 17:24:32 -0500
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: re. lactic acid vs lactobacillus

Rama,
I have been considering getting a bottle of lactic acid for use in a wit
beer - I like some sourness. However, as you corrctly state, the flavour is
differnt. There is a local micro (Brasserie Schoune) that I am pretty sure
uses lactic acid in their wit.. And the sour flavor is just...sour. It's not
bad, but you can kind of tell they 'doctor' the beer, as opposed to having
developed the flavour through the fermentation.

john

 [892, 63] Apparent Rennerian (km)

"Actually John it uses a very complex algorithm to determine your average
time between "Generate" clicks, and from that can it figures out how drunk
you are, and what styles of beer you prefer.  Obviously, you prefer obscure
Belgians!" - Drew Avis

Seen on a tee shirt - "The internet is full. Go away!"





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Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:36:23
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: RIMs Design + manifolds +

Mark Vernon posted awhile back:

>In HBD #4179 Dion Hollenbeck recommends to put the temp probe on you RIMs on
>the output side of the heating element, this way you avoid overheating your
>wort. I have been using my RIMs for several years and have my probe on the
>output of the Kettle. I have had problems my attenuation over my last 1/2
>dozen batches. Question for the RIMs brewers here, what is the location of
>your temp probe? I am in the process of designing/building a new stand and
>want to know if I need to move the temp probe? 

If you can only have single temp probe, it's better located dowstream of
the heater like Dion suggests. That ensures the recirc. isn't overheated
and hence helps ensure consistent fermentability.  The downside is it'll
take a bit longer to raise the mash to a higher rest temp.  

A single probe between the tun and heater measures the mash temp.  This
seems a good control input, BUT, especially at low flows, the downstream
temp can get really high.  It got upwards of 170 degF in my first stab at a
RIMS which had a single probe in that location.  Not good for the enzymes
hence it will affect fermentability and yeild and could have caused
scorching on the heating element.  If you go with this location, at least
install a thermometer downstream of the heater.  The RIMS controller I now
use looks at two probes- one up and the other downstream of the heater.
The heater is on only if the upstream temp  is below the desired rest temp
*and* the temp dowstream is not more than 2 degF above the desired rest
temp.  It's worked out well.  I think it gives faster boosts between rests
than a single probe located downstream of the heater.  

I just posted a page describing the latest RIMS at
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/rimsnew/rimsnew.htm   It includes photos-
including one of the ugliest RIMS you've likely even seen!

= = = = = 
Mark Vernon asked even further back how to cool a 12 gal. conical fermenter
without resorting to a walk-in cooler.  

Something along the lines of what I use with cornie keg fermenters should
work.  Basically, insulate the exterior of the fermenter and put a cooling
coil inside it. I use a pump/reservior/heat exchanger in the adjacent beer
fridge as a coolant supply.  A similiar supply in a freezer but with a
gycol/water solution would work for lower temps.  A picnic cooler with ice
water and a submersible pump inside can serve as an experimental or
alternate coolant source if you're willing to put up with replenishing the
ice.  Details on the keg sized one are at:
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/kegferm/kegferm.htm

= = = = = 
Re: an even older old thread on slotting mash tun manifolds being tedious...  

One thing that really helps with slotting is a jig.  The one I use that
helps hold the tubing and ensures the slots are uniform.  Together with
good music and homebrew the job becomes almost pleasant.  Details are
available on: http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/rimsnew/makeman.htm

= = = = = 
Mike more recently asked how to filter the trub and hops out of the keg
after the boiling and cooling.

I use a manifold located at the bottom of the boiler.  It's a spiral made
from 5' of stainless steel mesh removed from the exterior of a plumbing
connector.  It depends on a bed of whole hops for filtration of the hot and
cold break, however I've lately taken to using pellets for bittering.  A
couple of ounces of the late addition hops forms a nice filter bed that
removes much of the trub and pellet hops remains without clogging.  Well,
unless one runs off too fast- about 1 qt./min. with pellets and close to
double that without.  Details and photos are at
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/boilnew/boilnew.htm  

BTW, it's used after cooling the wort with an immersion chiller- never
tried it with a CF chiller.  I suspect not as well...

c.d. pritchard     cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 19:14:57 -0500
From: Donald and Melissa Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net>
Subject: Greed?

Rich Scotty wrote:

There is a third possibility however and that is that they
found themselves in 
the position of having a product that found a new market and
decided to 
exploit it.  That is their right in a free market economy.
Exercising that 
right to this degree is, in MY opinion, greedy.

- ---------    ---------   ---------   -------------

I tend to agree, but I'm in an MBA program right now and I
found it interesting that raising prices to the equilibrium
point (where demand equals supply) is a form of rationing
where there is a shortage.

Where no shortage exists in a new market, the high price
would be just temporary since others could enter the market
and increase supply in the marketplace. This, in turn, would
increase competition in the marketplace and drive prices
down to the new equilibrium point. 

The following example from Microeconomics (Gwartney, et.
al., 2003) gives a good (but extreme) example of how this
works:

When hurricane Hugo hit Charleston, S.C., the mayor imposed
a temporary price ceiling on goods sold in the city. This
virtually stopped the flow of goods into the city and
instead these were diverted to outlying areas where these
goods could be sold at much higher than pre-hurricane
prices. The goods that made it into the city were sold at
pre-hurricane prices, but since anyone could purchase these
goods, those who needed them the most (and would pay much
more than pre-hurricane prices, such as grocery stores, gas
stations, etc.) could not obtain these since others who did
not need them could obtain them and deplete the supply. 

Since grocery stores and gas stations could not buy
generators and other needed goods, food spoiled and people
could not buy gasoline, the best interests of the locality
would have been served if market prices would raise to
equilibrium and those who needed them the most would pay the
higher price and get them. 

In a short time, supply would increase and prices would
again decline, eventually to pre-hurricane levels once more.

Of course, that's an extreme example, but the same principle
applies to this situation. If there's a shortage, prices can
rise to the equilibrium point and those who need the goods
the most (those who are willing to pay the price) will get
them. If they're overpriced, demand will be too low for the
product to sell, and the supplier will have to make a
decision as to whether the item is worth marketing.

What is strange here is that the price suddenly rose quite
high, but this might just be an indication that the supplier
underestimated the demand (at that price) and had to raise
prices in order to not have a shortage in the market. 

If they could not buy a larger quantity than they were
getting, and if they had commercial customers who needed
these and expected them to always be available, they would
be doing these customers (who need them more and therefore
are willing to pay the higher price) a disservice. They also
might put themselves out of business by not catering to
their commercial customers' needs. Individual customers may
not really be supplying a large part of their income. 

Just some interesting thoughts from my textbook. I'll keep
my opinions to myself as to whether or not your supplier was
unethical in raising their price, as we don't really know
all of the facts, other than the price was raised by what
seems to be a large amount.

Donald Hellen



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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 19:20:32 -0500
From: "David Boice" <daveboice at insight.rr.com>
Subject: RIMS with two Controllers 

    I've been thinking about the recent comments highlighting the
advisability  to control the temp. of a RIMS both in the mash-tun and at the
outlet of the heater. I think the concept is great but have a question as to
how best to set such a system up. You could use two controllers (PID
controllers would be best I guess ) and two relays and wire them in series,
so both must be "on" to provide current to the heater(s) but, as I have no
experience with this, I don't know if this would work well. Will I confuse
or interfere with the controller that is ramping to or maintaining mash
temp. by overriding it when the wort exiting the heater goes above the upper
limit I set? Will I ruin its ability to accurately get to, and maintain
setpoint?
    Another thought is- would it be better to control the voltage going to
the heater ,so as to control the wattage output of the heater. I'm seeing a
temp. probe at the exit of the heater hooked up to some kind of controller
that lowers voltage if the exiting wort is too hot. That way there is only
one controller turning the heater on and off. I don't know if there is a
good way to automatically do this (you've probably noticed the sign around
my neck that says "electrically challenged") but I figured already running a
220v element at 120v to lower the wattage, so why not go the next step.
    Any thoughts from the control experts out there? Thanks for any help you
can provide.

David Boice
Carroll Ohio



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Date: Sun,  9 Mar 2003 20:48:02 -0600
From: Brian Dube <brian.dube at gotgoat.com>
Subject: Re: extreme lag in primary

Thanks for all the suggestions concerning my stubborn cream ale. Even 
though I've let still more time go by, I'm going to try my luck with a 
new starter.

- --
Brian Dube
Columbia, Missouri







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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 21:50:51 -0500
From: "Peter Garofalo" <pgarofa1 at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: Another View of CAP

I have been reading the recent discussion of Classic American Pilsners with
interest. And, even though he really is largely responsible for the
resurgence of the style, it occurs to me that we normally only hear Jeff
Renner's take on the style. It is a great style, and I have enjoyed it
immensely. My thanks to Jeff, Ben Jankowski, Del Lansing, and the late
George Fix for reviving it.

One thing that I fear may scare off potential CAP brewers is all the
discussion of cereal mashes, using polenta or other corn products. I have
been very successful using simple (though expensive) flaked maize. Really.
It simply blends into the mash, and adds that grainy wonderfulness that is
so hard to define. I have tasted my CAP next to Jeff's (at MCAB IV in
Cleveland last year), and they were remarkably similar. Mine subsequently
fared very well in competition.

I like to do a very simple infusion mash, typically with 15-20 % flaked
maize along with a mix of 6-row and 2-row Pilsner malt (somewhere around
50:50, but it depends on what's available). A low saccharification rest
(148-150F) leaves a very fermentable wort. For hops, my personal favorite is
Hallertau Mittelfrau, but it is increasingly difficult to find this variety.
Hallertau Tradition is also very nice, and I have had good luck with
American Liberty as well. I like to mash hop, first wort hop, and bitter
hop. Nothing hits my kettle beyond 60 minutes from knockout, and the hop
flavor and aroma are just fine.

For yeast, I have best luck with Wyeast 2124 (Bohemian Lager). It ferments
well in the low 50s F, but it takes about two weeks to complete. I am
drinking my latest version right now, and it has that certain something that
makes it a CAP. Jeff knows...

As for variety, there are several methods that will get you in the same
ballpark. I know that George DePiro always decocted his CAPs, though I don't
know if he did a cereal mash. Some folks add a bit of Munich malt, though I
prefer mine as light as Budweiser (in color, that is).

In short, there are many ways to make the same style. I find this to be one
of the simplest brewing sessions I can manage. Perhaps it simply fits my
equipment and techniques. My recommendation is to do whatever works for you,
but do not delay in making this appealing and rewarding style.

Cheers,

Peter Garofalo
Syracuse, NY



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Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 21:48:55 -0500
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE TMS

One assumption is that they keep the desired size hopper in stock.

Maybe they are not set up to stock and have to do a machine set up every 
time, or many times, when they get a one-se two-se orders. Set up time can 
be a significant cost in such operations. They may have found that it just 
isn't cost effective to make one off production of the hopper.

Just my two cents..

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck






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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 14:00:22 +1000
From: "Trevor White" <whitet at usq.edu.au>
Subject: Water Treatment


"Ken Schwartz's practice of adding dry malt extract and gypsum to distilled or
reverse osmosis water is sound.  The lack of buffering capacity makes the DME
very effective in dropping the water pH.  The added gypsum adds the calcium
needed for yeast health.  I suggest that adding calcium chloride is another
option for this approach when pursuing less bitter styles."


Martin Brungard wrote the above in response to a question about water 
in Chicago.  I have been using reverse osmosis water in all of my brewing 
(all grain) and have not heard of the practice of adding dry malt extract to 
the water.  I currently add about 3 grams of gypsum and 1 gram of salt to the 
RO water and include acidulated malt (Weyerman's) at around 2% of the grain 
bill when brewing light coloured lagers.  I also include around 5% of light 
crystal malt or 5% Munich.  The results are usually quite good to my taste but 
I would like to hear from brewers who use RO or distilled water on a regular 
basis, specifically in regard to water treatment for different beer styles.  
Any advice would be much appreciated.  BTW, I use RO water as the local water 
is very hard.

Thanks

Trevor White




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Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 23:18:08 -0500
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com>
Subject: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


  I messed up good this time. I could'nt wait for this scotch wee heavy to 
go beyond 2 weeks before bottling, big mistake. I guess it was not fully 
fermented ( DUH ) because I opened one tonight an it gushed. I'm so mad I 
could dump the whole thing down the drain!!!AHHHHHHHHHH
  So here's my dilemma I made a 1.100 scotch ale fermented one week then 
racked 1 week, then primed 1.8 oz for 2 weeks 31 bottles an there all as 
carbonated as a German wheat beer, or Belgian.
  Could I Un-cap an re-cap all these bottles? I think that might relive the 
pressure? Personal e-mails are welcome as I want to save this beer I tasted 
it and it's wonderful..........once it gets a little flat. argggghhhhhhh

I moved it to a cooler place just in case I have bottle bombs in the making. 
many thanks
gregman






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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 06:32:20 -0500
From: "David Craft" <chsyhkr at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Lambic Digest

Greetings,

Can anyone tell me how to post to the Lambic Digest or if it still exists.
I found several references to it on Google, but that is current or
worked.........

Regards,

David B. Craft
Battleground Brewers Guild
Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery
Greensboro, NC



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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 06:44:23 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE:  Buying Hops Plants

Yesterday, George asked;

Where can I buy hops plants?  I would like to grow my own.

Freshops is a good place to start.  They go on sale March 21.  Read their
tutorial on growing and harvesting.  I might try growing them myself this
year.

http://www.freshops.com/

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:26:28 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Extraction Efficiency and milling

Brewsters:

I am not surprised by Steven S' high efficiency and agree that it is most
likely his grind.  In my experience, coarse, high speed Honebrew shop grinds
are the likely candidate when it comes to lower efficiency extractions from
good quality malts.

Try doing as I do ( and have recomended in the past)  and make two grinds of
the same malt ( that is grind it twice) . Make the first one at a coarse grind
to crack the malt grain into about six pieces and free the husks and the
second pass to grind it smaller.  This emulates a two roll mill used by the
big boys.

You get small malt particle while keeping the husks intact. Believe it or not,
it is faster than grinding once at a fine setting. The extraction efficiency
goes way up and the likelihood of a stuck sparge ( even with rye)  goes to
zero. The speed can be very high although in most cases I still sparge over
about an hour to allow time for the wort to diffuse out of the particle.

Case in point is with high rye brews, I rip the first wort through, rinse the
bed quickly and heat the extracted wort combination back up and pass it slowly
through the bed again and do a slower extraction. Why? Rye wort viscosity is
very temperature and concentration dependent and I believe a high temeprature,
dilute sparge is necessary.  Cooling of the bed during a slow extraction
causes the problems with rye, IMHO. I've never had a stuck sparge even with
100% rye.

Grind is a very important factor in good brewing practice.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:46:23 -0800
From: Jim Bermingham <jbham6843 at netscape.net>
Subject: Chili Beer

I have tasted many "Chili Beers" in my time.  Some I liked, some not. 
 Most were too hot to really enjoy.  I like spicy food and can set down 
with most anyone and hold my own in a pepper eating contest.  But why 
make a beer that one or too is all you can drink and most people not 
even one?
I was fortunate last October to be invited by Larry Bristol, to the 
Double Luck Station, for October Fest.  Larry and his charming wife 
Marsha, did themselves proud, providing about 40 people with great food 
and beer.  One of the beers Larry served was his Cerveza Chingaquedito 
con Chili.  Cerveza Chingaquedito con Chili is a tasty beer, flavored 
with jalapeno peppers. Since most of the heat from the peppers comes 
from its seeds, they were remove so the beer did not inherit a lot of 
heat, only the pepper flavor. This beer went great with the Mexican food 
it was served with.  I think everyone there had the beer with the 
Mexican food, including all the wives and girlfriends.   Larry did a 
little something extra with the peppers to reduce the heat and enhance 
the flavor.  He told me, but swore me to secrecy and said he would kill 
me if I told.  Sense I will be seeing him at the Blubonnet in a few 
weeks, and the fact that I want to live, and will be wanting another 
invitation to his annual October Fest I will not let his recipe out. 
 With a little encouragement however, he might.

Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX





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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 06:50:50 -0800
From: "Jeffrey Donovan" <jeffrey at promash.com>
Subject: BLATANT AD - ProMash Version 1.8.a is Released!

Hello HBD'rs!

We are pleased to announce that ProMash Version 1.8.a was released on 
03/08/2003! As always, the upgrade is free of charge to currently 
registered users. Because many of you frequent this site, we are posting 
this notice here in case you have not yet received the upgrade notice.

If you are a registered ProMash user and have not received your upgrade 
notice, most likely you have changed your email address and not notified 
us. To get these changes made and receive your upgrade notice, send your 
information, in the specified format, to:

      techsupport at promash.com

Make the subject line read: "Email Change". Within the body of the email 
include your full name, middle initial included, your former email 
address and your current email address. Do not be surprised if response 
is 24 hours or greater as we are generally overwhelmed with these 
requests for each new release.

I won't bore the group with new features, but anybody that is interested 
can check them out at:

  http://www.promash.com/Changes/changes_18a.html 

And of course the evaluation versions can be found at:

  http://www.promash.com 

Then click on the "Free Eval" button.

Thanks for your indulgence,

Cheers!

 - Jeff




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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 06:55:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Chad Holley <em2hurley at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Buying Hops Plants

George,

I bought my plants through freshops.com.  They had a
great selection, and they arrived quickly.  This will
be my third summer with the plants, and if last year
is any indication of growth, I need to expand my
trellis.  Don't expect much of a harvest the first
year, but last year was pretty decent for me.  Their
website has good planting and growing tips, and alot
of good info on hops, plus pictures of customer's hop
gardens.  I'd have to say I'm a satisfied customer (no
affiliation with the company).

Chad Holley
Grand Blanc, MI

George wrote...
>>Hi Everybody

>>Where can I buy hops plants?  I would like to grow
>>my own.

>>George




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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 06:58:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Care and cleaning of plastic

Granted, I've not been brewing 15 years, so my plastic
fermenters have not experienced the wear and tear that
other's have.  However, my collection of free five
gallon buckets and six dollar seven gallon primaries
don't justify any more expensive options.  It just
won't cost that much to replace my entire fleet of
fermenters.  However, if you are brewing larger
batches, i just don't know what inexpensive plastic
options you have, beyond fermenting in several
buckets.

But - I use little else than a pressurized stream of
water to clean my plastic fermenters.  ie the garden
hose.  So I'm not worried about scratches.  My
primaries do require a quick rub down with a nylon
brush, although if i had a sponge on a stick, that
would be even less abrasive.  

So, anyone know where I can get 15 gallon plastic
options for under $25?

Mike
Columbia, MO

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:14:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Poll <jtpoll at mtu.edu>
Subject: Sources of Hops

George asks where to buy hop plants:
> Where can I buy hops plants?  I would like to grow my own.


First and I guess foremost, I'm not affiliated with any of these places,
just a happy (hoppy?) customer from a few of them.

I went on a search for hops rhizomes a while back and I ended up
bookmarking a few places, and buying from some place complete different.
These are the places I had bookmarked:

Freshops:               http://freshops.com/ 
HopTech:                http://hoptech.com/                    
Nichols Garden Nursery: http://www.nicholsgardennursery.com/

I ended up buying the rhizomes from a seed catalog I get every year called
Pintree Garden Seeds: http://www.superseeds.com/  
It looks like they have the smallest selection, only Cascade and Nugget
rhizomes, but it was convenient for me since I was ordering everything
else for my garden, and starting with just Cascade sounds good enough to
me.

Before sending this off, I whipped off a quick google search to see if I
couldn't find any other sources.  Here's a few that came up:

BrewOrganic: http://www.breworganic.com/Catalog/hop-rhizomes.htm

Beer-Wine: http://www.beer-wine.com/hoproots.htm

NorthernBrewer: http://www.northernbrewer.com/rhizomes.html

There were a bunch more results, but I'll just stop there.  Good luck, and
have a large, strong trellis ready!  I guess these bad boys are quite the
quick growers!

Speaking of trellising hops, does anyone have any suggestions for
trellises (trelli?) for growing hops? I'm thinking of making a simple
trellis as high as I can, and then stringing some rope or something over
to an old building in my yard.  Hopefully they won't overgrow that...at
least not in their first year (I hope.)

Anyway...

		--Jason




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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:32:54 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Buying Hops Plants

George, AKA Ludwig <Bluestar792 at netscape.net> writes

>Where can I buy hops plants?  I would like to grow my own.

George (and others)

Here's a perfect example of why it's nice to include where you are in 
your post.  There are a lot of local homebrew shops and mail order 
outlets as well that sell hop rhizomes (roots).  There might be 
another brewer in your area who could tip you on local availability.

If you happen to live near a shop that carries them (some do it by 
taking orders in advance for pickup at planting time), you'd probably 
do best by buying that way.  Probably cheaper since there would be no 
shipping.

If you don't have a local source, check out online suppliers like HBD 
sponsor Northern Brewer http://www.northernbrewer.com/rhizomes.html. 
They don't have their rhizome ordering set up for this year, but I 
imagine they will soon.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:07:21 -0800 (PST)
From: "John B. Doherty" <dohertybrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: 9th Annual Boston Homebrew Competition RESULTS!

The Boston Wort Processors Homebrew Club is pleased to announce the results of
the 9th Annual Boston Homebrew Competition, held last Saturday, March 8th at
the Watch City Brewing Company in Waltham MA.

A total of 386 entries made by 108 brewers from 13 states representing 22
homebrew clubs, spanning all 26 BJCP categories were judged by 54 judges with
the assistance of 24 stewards.

Congratulations to the Boston Wort Processors' own Jim Dexter of Acton, MA for
his Best of Show winning Northern German Pilsner.

Runner-Up Best of Show was an India Pale Ale brewed by Geoff McNally from
Tiverton, RI of the South Shore Brew Club.  This is the Geoff's 3rd "Top-2"
Best of Show finish at BHC in the last 3 years!

Second Runner-Up Best of Show went to Fran Malo from Leominster, MA of the
F.O.A.M. homebrew club for his Dopplebock.

The Brewmaster's Choice Award, selected from the BOS table by Watch City
Brewing Company's Head Brewer Aaron Mateychuk, went to a Historical Category
Baltic Porter brewed by Paul Zocco from Andover, CT of the Hop River Brewers
homebrew club.  Paul has accepted the invitation to return to Watch City to
brew a brewpub sized batch of the Baltic Porter later this year!

Also announced at this year's Boston Homebrew Competition were the final
standings in the 2002 New England Homebrewer of the Year Circuit.

Successfully defending their 2001 title, The BHC9 host Boston Wort Processors
were named the 2002 New England Homebrew Club of the Year.  This award is based
on the top 5 performing individual brewers in each New England club.

The aforementioned BHC9 Best of Show winner, Jim Dexter, was crowned as the
2002 New England Homebrewer of the Year for having amassed the most points in
the 24 BJCP beer categories in three area competitions during 2002.  

The also aforementioned BHC9 Brewmaster's Choice Award winner, Paul Zocco of
Andover, CT, was named the 2002 Runner Up for New England Homebrewer of the
Year, and was also crowned as the 2002 New England Mead Maker of the Year as
well as the 2002 New England Cider Maker of the Year.

Your humble author of this message, and the defending 2001 New England
Homebrewer of the Year, was awarded the 2nd Runner Up prize in the 2002 New
England Homebrewer of the Year standings.

A complete list of category winners from the 9th Annual Boston Homebrew
Competition (1st place beers in categories 1-20 also qualify for MCAB6 in 2004)
can be found on our website at:

http://www.wort.org/BHC/winners03.html

Tremendous thanks to all who entered, judged and otherwise supported the Boston
Homebrew Competition.  We look forward to your continued support!  Watch for
our 10th Anniversary Boston Homebrew Competition coming in February/March 2004!

Cheers,

John Doherty
BHC9 Head Organizer
Boston Wort Processors



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---