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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  PID Controls ("Michael O'Donnell")
  acetic mashes ("Raj B. Apte")
  re: "The Brewers' Handbook" by Ted Goldammer ("Mark Tumarkin")
  RE: Igloo Conversion (Jonathan Royce)
  Procon Pump???? ("Guillote")
  Beerjolais nouveau ("Mike Dixon")
  Re: Beerjolais nouveau (Larry Bristol)
  fastest beer in the east (Marc Sedam)
  Irish Red (Leo Vitt)
  white film ("Buck Wilke")
  "burnt sugar" (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Kettle False Bottoms (Lonzo McLaughlin)
  Mountain Creek Water in Brewing (Andrew Nix)
  enzymes an overnight mashing ("greg man")
  Kellogs' Black and Tan (John)


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Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 21:44:58 -0800
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: PID Controls


>Doug Moyer had a question about a PID controller & SSR
>
>    "I have an Omega 1/16 DIN MICROMEGA Autotune PID
>Temperature Controller, model CN77333. This unit's
>outputs are both Relay SPDT 5 A at 120. As I
>understand it, these are mechanical relays, as opposed
>to SSRs. As such is it possible to use this unit to
>control a RIMS heater?"
>
>Set the time constant to a value somewhere around 2 seconds, and you should
>be ok with the relays.  You'll need to set up some sort of control voltage
>for the SSR--but that will depend on the SSR.  Wire the control voltage
>through the NO contact of the relay.  The relay is 5A at 120V, but that
>doesn't mean it "puts out" 120v...that's just it's rating.

Before you go about doing anything like this, I'd highly recommend taking 
Pat Reddy's suggestion from last week and just buying an SSR controller on 
Ebay.  You can probably get one for around $50, then turn around and sell 
your relay one for the same amount.  Much better to start with the right 
part than to try and kluge it together, especially if there is no cost 
savings.

I bought 2 of them last week and got great deals.IIn a bit of shameless 
self-promotion, one of  them is about to go back up for sale because I 
forgot I wanted to use a thermocouple and got a controller that needs an 
RTD probe... if you have a use for an 0mron E5CX-RP, let me know.  Although 
I am a big promoter of Ebay, it is easy to get burned by purchasing the 
wrong item if you don't take the time to download the instruction manual 
and make sure you are getting the right thing before you bid.  Once you are 
sure, you can get what you need.

cheers,
mike
Monterey, CA 



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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 00:03:43 -0800 (PST)
From: "Raj B. Apte" <raj_apte at yahoo.com>
Subject: acetic mashes

All,

Can anyone explain how acetic acid is produced during
mashing? I refer specifically to p56 of "Wines & Beers
of Old New England" by Sanborn Brown of MIT:

 ...and this cracked malt, called grist, was steeped in
hot water for several hours somewhat below the boiling
point. If the water was too cool, the process did not
work, and if it was too hot, acetic acid was rapidly
produced which would spoil the beer. The early farmers
adjusted the mashing temperature by taste--if too
cool, the wort did not become sweet; if too hot, they
were warned by the vinegar taste.

This is clearly not thermophilic lactic acid mashing
ala Papazian. From the sound of it, I don't think he's
refering to a possible acetic fermentation that could
come from a highly dextrinous wort--that should take a
few days (as in lambic, which has an early acetic
production by bacteria).

Any ideas?

raj



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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 06:47:16 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: "The Brewers' Handbook" by Ted Goldammer

Bill Halstead wrote:
"In regard to Steinfillers question about reference books I would certainly
concur with Mr. Daniels.  Another book that can serve as a good reference
source, though not as technical nor as in depth as some of the other books
mentioned, is "The Brewers' Handbook" by Ted Goldammer.  It's 457 pages and
gives an excellent overview of the commercial brewing process as well as has
chapters on the U.S. beer market and beer styles."

You can read Ted Goldammer's book online at
http://www.beer-brewing.com/index.htm
Although the website says something about 'selected excerpts' it appears to be
the complete book, though I'm not sure about that. Anyhow, it's a valuable
link to have bookmarked.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL




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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 05:03:07 -0800
From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: RE: Igloo Conversion 

Mary Johnson asked about converting a 3 qt Igloo for partial mashes. 

First, let me just say that I am also a partial masher, and in IMHO a 3 qt 
cooler is too small to be useful. I went with a 2 gallon cooler from Home 
Depot and it is just about right--allows for 4-5 lbs of grain per 5 gallon 
batch and gives anywhere from 8-12 quarts of runoff. You can see the design 
on my website- -I went with a sealed bulkhead fitting, but my cooler was 
rectangular so making the seal was easier than in a round cooler. 

Anyway, if you're determined to try the 3 qt design, I see no reason why 
drilling a 7/8" hole wouldn't work. Just be sure to use a very sharp hole
saw so that you get a nice round hole and (if possible) fix something inside 
the cooler wall that you can drill into. This method will prevent the plastic 
inside the cooler from becoming frayed or broken and will provide a better 
edge to seal against. Even better, if you have access to a hole punch, drill 
a hole big enough for the hole punch bolt and then make the hole using the 
punch. This will provide the cleanest, roundest hole you can make. 

HTH, 


Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:28:27 -0300
From: "Guillote" <guillote at castresana-sa.com>
Subject: Procon Pump????

Hi!
My name is Guillermo im from Argentina.
So, I could take a "REDHEAD PROCON PUMP" from a Coke dispenser machine. I
want to know if someone have experience whit this pump. Im thinking use it
for my Herms System.
Coments???
Thanks.





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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:44:04 -0500
From: "Mike Dixon" <mpdixon at ipass.net>
Subject: Beerjolais nouveau


> From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
> How young have you served your beer?  How about five days?
>[snip]
> So, five days old.  And it tasted pretty damn good.  Can you top that?

Let's see, you brewed on Monday, served on Saturday.

I guess I gotcha with a 4 day old.  I brewed 3 batches one Saturday (a
couple of years ago), one of which was a partigyle which ended up with quite
a bit of extra wort so I made an additional 3 gallon batch.  The grist of
the partigyle was mainly wheat and pale malt, and it had been through a step
mash, also I took the final runnings of the first batch I had made and used
that in the boil as well.  The OG post boil was about 1.040.  I did not have
enough wort to make the 3 gallon batch, so I dumped the trub from the two
previous batches through a collander and strainer and collected all the wort
left in the kettle from 2 batches that were part of the partigyle and the
trub from the "cleanup" batch.

I pitched the only "extra" yeast I had, Edme, and left to ferment.  The next
day, Sunday, the fermentation appeared done, so I decided to put it into a
seconday.  I checked the gravity on Monday and it was completely fermented.
I fined with gelatin since I now had the idea to take it to the club meeting
on Wednesday.  On Tuesday, I kegged and force carbonated.  On Wednesday, I
served it at the meeting.  Most people thought it was pretty good, one
person picked out it was "extremely" young beer. Was it good, yes, was it
outstanding, no.  It really didn't mellow and become great beer with age,
but it remained a fairly decent beer to be the dregs from multiple mashes
and multiple boils...

Cheers,
Mike
www.ipass.net/~mpdixon/homebrew.htm





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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 07:54:57 -0600
From: Larry Bristol <larry at doubleluck.com>
Subject: Re: Beerjolais nouveau

On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:49:11 -0500,  Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> 
wrote:

> How young have you served your beer?  How about five days?
> Here's the story, which includes a stupid brewer's trick.
>...snip...
> So, five days old.  And it tasted pretty damn good.  Can you top that?

Yep.  I had some friends chew on some grain five days before the beer was 
even brewed, and it tasted great!  There is a lot to be said for serving 
"fresh" beer.

Neat story.  It reminds me of my very first batch of homebrew made on 
April 1, 1982.  [I started as a child, you know?  Think about it --- in 
just a few days, my beer is going to be old enough to drink itself!]  
Seven days in the fermenter and then bottled.  You're supposed to let it 
condition for 2 weeks, right?  On the fifth day, my neighbor and I 
decided we should test one to see how the carbonation was coming along.  
By the time it was "ready", it was gone!

- -- 
Larry Bristol
The Double Luck
Bellville, TX
http://www.doubleluck.com



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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:33:11 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: fastest beer in the east

I can beat Jeff R. by one day.  After moving into my new pad I quickly 
found myself with NO beer, having extinguished the reserves in the hot 
moving days.  I did have some malt left and ground up 7lbs pils and a 
pound of 40L crystal.  Pitched a sachets of EDME dry yeast at 10pm on 
Wednesday and racked to the keg on 10am Friday.  The beer was already 
clearing and there was just enough fermentability left that it 
carbonated sufficiently by Saturday evening.  Chill and serve.  A bit 
hazy but fresh as all get out.

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 07:05:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Irish Red

Cas Koralewski asked:

>What BJCP style does "Irish Red Ale" fall into?

The old AHA categories had this under brown ales.  I don't think
the current BJCP categories list it.  If it is not, maybe we should 
ask - Should it be included?

If I am correct that it is not a current BCJP category, you can
submit it to a competition under 24 Specialty/Experimental/Historical.

=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE



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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:13:42 -0500
From: "Buck Wilke" <brewer at valkyrie.net>
Subject: white film

hello fellow brewers,

first time posting. if anyone can answer this question i know that it is 
the collective.
i had a pale ale sitting in a conical fermenter with the loose fitting 
lid (mini-brew from hobby beverage, and i have never had this problem 
before). this brew was dry-hopped. after dry-hopping for 2 weeks i 
lifted the lid and removed the hops. two days later i was ready to keg 
the batch. upon opening the lid i saw this thick bubbly white film, it 
almost looked like "mother" on vinegar. however the brew had no sour 
odor or taste, it tastes quite good.
when this film is touched chunks, fall into the brew and suspend. i 
drained and filtered the batch through a very fine strainer with double 
layered cheesecloth in it. all looked well. i let this settle for a day, 
it was about half way settled and the white film was back.
this time i took 5 campden tablets and crushed them. i then filtered the 
brew again on top of the campden tablets. thinking that maybe this was a 
yeastie thing starting (the fermenter was in the kitchen, and my wife 
was baking a lot of bread). i know, i'm grabbing at straws. the brew was 
settling out nicely and bang the white film is back. there is no sulfur 
taste or odor to the brew, which may have been possible with the campden 
tablets.
i am now planning to allow the brew to settle completely. then refilter 
and keg.
does anyone have any idea what this is? and what to do? and is this is a 
bad idea, of refiltering and kegging?

buck wilke



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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:34:47 -0500
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremy at bergsman.org>
Subject: "burnt sugar"

I think Tidmarsh was referring to my grandfather's beer making instructions,
which do indeed refer to making "burnt sugar" to color and flavor some
beer.  These are at:
http://bergsman.org/jeremy/beerstuff/fritz.html

I think that the process (like the whole document) is interesting for
historical reasons, but probably not very enlightening for how to proceed in
practice nowadays.  Here's what it says:

Burnt sugar for colouring:  1lb. sugar (cane or corn), put in pan, cook to
brownish-black colour, then add small amount of water and cook to a thin
liquid.  When finished should have about 1/2 dipper full (3 quart dipper)

I have posted in the past on making sugar syrups and I agree that Jeff's
approach is unnecessarily involved.  Just add water when the caramel gets
where you want it.  Just do it *carefully* because the caramel is *very* hot
and even better at burning you and the water will instantly boil and tend to
splatter things around.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremy at bergsman.org
http://www.bergsman.org/jeremy


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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:43:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Lonzo McLaughlin <lonkelm at yahoo.com>
Subject: Kettle False Bottoms

Hello,

I have a 3 tier converted keg system.  I'm having
trouble getting all of the work out of my kettle after
I finish the boil.

My pickup tube goes to the center and bottom of the
keg and I have a scrubbie on the end.

I normally use hop pellets in my brew sessions.  
I see Sabco has a false bottom with 3/32" holes.  I
would think the fine particles of the pellets would
make it through this no?

Please let me know how other have made this part of
their system successful.

Lonzo




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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 14:47:02 -0500
From: Andrew Nix <anix at vt.edu>
Subject: Mountain Creek Water in Brewing

Hello all,

I have been tossing around the idea of using the water from my favorite 
wild trout stream in the mountains here in SW VA and wanted to see if 
anyone has tried this before with their local streams.  I know there is a 
large variation in the water from watershed to watershed depending on the 
soil and rock formations.   Has anyone tried to make a beer from mountain 
stream water, and if so, what adjustments, if any, did you make to the 
water chemistry before brewing with it?

I know I could send a sample off for chemical analysis, but I'm not going 
to go that far.  I want to make an American pale with it, so I may not 
treat it at all and just see how the beer comes out.

Andrew Nix
Research Associate
Transonic Turbine Cascade Heat Transfer Group
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Virginia Tech
100B Randolph Hall
(540) 231-6939



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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:54:51 -0500
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com>
Subject: enzymes an overnight mashing


  I tried overnight mashing last weekend on a belgian sasion. The whole 
process cut 2 hours out of my brew day (well, cut it on one day an added it 
to another I guess). It seemed to work pretty good, but my final resting 
temp the next morning was a little low  at  130F. Too close to the danger zone 
for me, so next time I'll try to find a better way of insulating the cooler. 
Any suggestions would be appreciated!!
  This method of mashing is particularly useful for those of us who like to 
do decoction or complex mashing schedules. After a 2-3 hours of working on a 
mash your ready for bed and now that's just what you get to do.
  I have only two questions for the collective chemistry majors out there 
about the process. First do coolers lose heat in a linier scale? For example 
I left the mash at 1am  at  150F. 10 am the next day the mash reached 130F. If 
it was linier then every hour the mash dropped 2.5 degrees. That to me 
sounds like a step mash in reverse? You could assume a backward mash 
temperature rest schedule?

  The second is this I wondered If the temp will fall that much over night 
then I will have to start at a higher final resting temp. Will resting the 
mash over night at say 158F destroy all of the beta enzymes?
  What I mean is by the time the mash reaches say 148F will there be any 
beta left to convert starches to fermentable sugars? I have read a few times 
that at higher temps enzymes are eventually destroyed. Of corset with the 
length of time mashing that is involved in overnight mashing, I would 
suppose even if a small about of enzymes were left they would have enough 
time to do there job?

  What about if the mash stays too long  at  130F? Will I have a headless beer? 
Or will it become very thin in body an mouth feel?

thanks all...............gregman







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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:51:36 -0800 (PST)
From: John <j2saret at yahoo.com>
Subject: Kellogs' Black and Tan

Thanks to both Jeff and Marc for their (differing)
replies to my question on cereal mash.  By a remakable
conincidence the grocery store had a sale on Kellogs
Corn Flakes.  I had enough grain on hand to brew
another batch of the Black and Tan that I had just
moved to my secondary so I thought "why not  In one
fell swoop I can produce both a CAP and a CACA,
discovering along the way the difference between
brewing with corn meal and corn flakes.  Having the
two beers on hand to compare the flavour with and with
out corn will be instructive and the process might
teach me something."  So far so good.  I kettle mash
and the mash with corn flakes took  seven minutes
longer than the previous batch without.  The sparge
yielded less liquid than expected (5.3 gal vs the
projected 5.8)  so I will be topping up the primary
once it is chilled.  I am excited about the experiment
and if successful will be moving on to include rice
crispies in my arsenal.  On a unrelated note I got my
Sportsman's Guide catalog to day and I see they are
offering 30qt u.s. aluminum fry pot with a screened
drain spigot for $49.97.  It looks like it could be a
great boiling pot/primary.  Any feedback?

John
545.3, 308.5
(oh no I've joined the cult, dues are next)

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