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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Mineral additions (Fred L Johnson)
  Papazian APA Recipe (Jim Herter)
  Re: Where to buy bottled beer ("Steve B")
  Water Treatment ("Kevin Elsken")
  Re: overnight mashing, enzymes (Jeff Renner)
  Attention RIMSing Gadgeteers ("Philip J Wilcox")
  White labs 530 abbey ale origins ("Flannery, Phil")
  Re: Brewing Etymology (Joe Murphy)
  autolysis & viability/ was re: pitchable yeast ("-S")
  RIMS piping flush (Jennifer/Nathan Hall)
  Re:  Overnight Mash (John)
  RE: brewing etymology (jmcdonald)
  sour mash without the stink ("Raj B. Apte")
  Fermenter Recirculation #5 - Bad Idea (David Towson)
  Call for Judges (Northeast Regionals) (mjkid)
  Sugar-Free Root Beer (Donald Hellen)


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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 07:41:08 -0500
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Mineral additions

There have been a number of recent posts regarding brewing water mineral
additions. One among us (and I've heard this many times before on this
digest and in texts) stated that it is best for all of the brewing water
should be adjusted at the beginning.

I contend that to adjust the brewing water used for the mash and the sparge
are unnecessary if one is merely interested in achieving the mineral
concentrations of a particular style or brewing region. (This is excluding
other additions for effective pH maintenance during the mash as discussed by
A.J et al.) 

If one knows the desired ion concentrations of the brewing water for the
region/syle being duplicated, one can simply add the appropriate amount of
salts to the kettle at the beginning of the boil based upon the volume in
the kettle, but with some consideration of how much of this volume will be
boiled off. I see no advantage to adjusting sparge water and mash water salt
concentrations just for the sake of achieving the mineral concentrations of
a particular style. Furthermore, many of the salts are poorly soluble in
"pure" water so their addition to water is ineffective. If you don't keep
them suspended by constant stirring, they simply fall to the bottom of the
vessel.

As pointed out by Martin Brungard, the final concentration of the salts in
the beer will be higher than in the water used to make the beer because of
loss of water during the boil. To really reproduce the mineral
concentrations in a regional brew, it would help to know what portion of the
initial kettle volume was boiled off in the target brew, and one must still
assume that the ion contribution from one's grist is the same as that from
the grist used in the brew being duplicated (hairs are beginning to be split
now). 

I actually ignore the boil off volume and simply do the math based upon the
final kettle volume. That is, salt additions are based merely upon the final
volume of my batch (in the kettle, not in the fermentor) and the ion
concentrations of my local water. (So I'm always low by about 15%, but I
don't really care, and one could simply adjust the additions based upon the
boil off volume if one does care.)

Since I use my own spreadsheet for calculations of salt additions, I have no
idea what Promash or other calculators consider when determining the amount
of salt to add. How do these other calculators do the math?

I await your flames.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 07:51:55 -0500
From: Jim Herter <james.m.herter.1 at nd.edu>
Subject: Papazian APA Recipe

A friend has asked me for a Charlie Papazian American Pale Ale recipe to 
enter into an upcoming contest. I gave my NJOHB to a newbie a long time 
ago. Does anyone out there have an APA recipe from one of Charlie's books? 
I need the name of the recipe also. The recipe should have at least 
Columbus or Chinook and Centennial and Cascade hops.

Jim Herter
St. Joe Valley Brewers Chairperson
and Great Lakes Brewing News
Indiana Correspondent
The Woods at Blackthorn
Restaurant and Brewery
Future President & Brewer

day 574.631.0113
home 574.271.3999



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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 08:08:45 -0500
From: "Steve B" <habenero92 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Where to buy bottled beer 

I can only speak to the DC portion of your question but you are kind of in a 
no good-beer store area.  The best bets are Chevy Chase Liquors just across 
the line in Bethesda, Whole Foods or Norm's Beer and Wine both in Vienna.  
Whole Foods is a chain in the DC area but the Vienna store has the best beer 
manager who stocks quite a few Belgians and then some.
S







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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 08:50:33 -0500
From: "Kevin Elsken" <kevin.elsken at bayerpolymers.com>
Subject: Water Treatment



Ed Dorn was asking about water treatment...

I really good suggestion I read here, I think, was to play around with very
small mashes in order to see what pH your mashes normally fall to.  Take a few
ounces of pale male, crush and mix with an appropriate amount of water, and
spend time using your new pH strips.  The nice thing about doing this is that it
is NOT brew day.  You can take your time.  No rush.  Repeat the experiment, but
use a mix of dark grain and pale malt.  Add some minerals, convince yourself it
does change the pH.  In my case, I found that my mash pH was good for a wide
variety of mashes, and I don't have to worry about it too much.  Even if this is
not the case, you can be prepared to adjust you water on brew day.

It is also a great way to get one of those "what-on-earth-are-you-doing-NOW?"
looks from the wife.

Kevin
Little Boy Brewery
North Strabane, PA



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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 09:00:01 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: overnight mashing, enzymes

Steve Jones <stjones at eastman.com> writes from Johnson City, TN

>Maybe you could remove the racks from your oven, heat it up to about 150 or
>so, then turn it off and keep your cooler in there overnight. This should
>minimize the temperature difference between the inside & outside temps, and
>therefore greatly reduce the heat loss. Just be sure the oven isn't too hot
>when you put the cooler in it.

When I used to mash in an oven (both overnight occasionally and a 
regular mash), I mashed in an eight gallon enamel canning kettle and 
just left the oven on at 150.  It was rock solid even overnight. 
This would eliminate the need for mashing in a cooler.  It does mean, 
however, you have to transfer the mash to a lauter tun (I used a 
zapap) unless you install a spigot and EZ Masher or something like it 
for the kettle.

I still do this for a small cereal mash using a five quart pot.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 09:08:51 -0500
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Attention RIMSing Gadgeteers

Greetings Fellow Geeks,

I have negative time on my hands to research this, but i know a good
bargain when I see one. For $5 each I found a box of Omega Digital Readout
Meters at my companies Salvage store. Are these what I would use to display
temp on a rims system? They are model# 199E-E2-YY  110 Vac QA6 8725 with a
SN# of 8725129. They came out of Natural Gas Compressor Station.

I have also found other treasures on the road to Automated RIMSing...
Natural gas furnace and oven ignightors 2$
Electronic Thermostat for Percision waterbath with probe (like Johnson
Controls Fridge Controller) for 3/8 NPT stainless $5  (prob not for rims
but maybe for HLT?)
Red Hat Selanoid valves $5 each new & Used
Wide varity of great thermometers, the last one had a 6" 1/2 npt stainless
probe and a 20 foot flexible extension to the 8 inch dial with 2 deg
increments  20-250F! $10!!!!!
Best deal I found so far is the Hoke Needle valves I am currently
using...Stainless 3/8 compression, $2.50 retail $70!!!!!

Phil Wilcox
jackson, MI




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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:16:23 -0000
From: "Flannery, Phil" <phil.flannery at eds.com>
Subject: White labs 530 abbey ale origins

Hello all.

First time poster, long time lurker.

Does anyone know where this yeast comes from?

Their web site says, "Used in two of the six Trappist breweries remaining in
the world."
So which two would that be?

TIA




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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 07:26:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Joe Murphy <ladislavsipos at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Brewing Etymology

Christopher Ivey asks about the etymology of brewing terms. The
tool you want for this question is the Oxford English
Dictionary, which I hope you can find in print or online at your
local library.

Wort: from the Old English "wyrt", and the Old Saxon "wurtja",
meaning a collection of spices, and the Middle German "wurze,"
again, spice. 

OED says the plant name "wort" is more closely related to some
Saxon, German, and Norse words for "root", but since many spices
come from roots, it sure seems like there'd be a relationship.
The "plant" sense first appears in the 800s; the "brewing" sense
in the 1000s.

Sparge: from the Old French "espargier" and Latin "spargere",
meaning to sprinkle. First shows up in English related to
brewing in the 1800s. 

Lauter: from the German "lauter", meaning to purify or strain.
Joins English in the early 1900s.

Mash: the noun actually shows up around 1000 in an Old English
word "max-wyrte" or "mascwyrt" (which would mean the mash and
wort combined). Connects to German words meaning crushed grapes
for wine or infused malt for beer. Shows up as an English verb
in the 1300s. The sense of "to crush" doesn't appear until the
1600s.

Lager: from the German "lagern", meaning to store. The verb
doesn't appear in English until 1946. The noun, as a short form
of "lager beer", shows up in the 1850s. 

"Lager beer", oddly enough, comes from the German "lager-bier".
Etymology of that one is left as an exercise for the reader. ;-)

Krausen and Trub don't appear in the OED. If I had to guess, I'd
speculate that "trub" may be related to an obsolete spelling of
"trouble", but the OED won't back me up on it.

 -Joe Murphy
Brewer, Librarian
ladislavsipos at yahoo.com

(There are umlauts in "wurze" and "lauter", but HBD won't send
them out. But the umlaut is my favorite diacritical mark, so I
thought I'd point them out.)



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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:42:03 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: autolysis & viability/ was re: pitchable yeast

Nathaniel Lansing(Del) recently posted some thoughts on yeast autolysis that
make little sense to me.  Some ideas can be attributed to HB books like Dave
Miller's old HBofHB which contains erroneous ideas about autolysis.

He writes ...,

>It's all a matter of competition I believe, yeast competition that is.

What sort of "competition" could be involved ?   I expect in reply the old
HB myth that autolysis is the result of yeast cannibalism.  No !
"Autolysis is caused by intracellular events mediated by hydrolytic enzymes"
['Brewing Yeast & Fermentation'(BY&F)].

>I have observed that larger quantities (concentrations) of yeast
>appear to autolyze faster.

How did you  measured autolysis rate quantitatively ?   If a large slurry
*seems* to decay faster than a small one it's probably the observation
technique.   It's easier to see darkening and smell off aromas in a large
sample.

>While attempting to store a slurry of
>w3068 in the fridge for a month till I brewed again, after 2 weeks,
>the slurry darkened and upon checking the odor was the familiar
>burnt rubber of autolysis.

"Familiar burnt rubber" ?!!?   Autolysed yeast do NOT smell like burning
tires. Yeast autolysis *sometimes* causes the release sulfur compounds -
primarily H.disulphide.  Some compare the sulfur notes to non-burning rubber
but I don't think this is a good description.

> ... storing just a few cells under sterile water for a year at room
>temperature with no mutation.

Why would there be mutation ?   HBers talk about yeast as tho' they mutate
if you look at them cross-eyed.  Yeast can be stored under all sorts of
awful conditions - warm, under sterile water, in bottled beer ... yet there
will often be enough viable cells to reculture.   I recently pulled a
culture from a filtered, pasteurized bottle of Michelob (not the first
time).   That doesn't make pasteurization a good storage method.
Sterile water storage was intended for in-brewery slurry storage for
just a  few days.

> I've also observed that the Extra-Large
> packs and Pitchable tubes have a fridge life of 6 months where the
> small smack paks had a life of 1 year. Could it be that the added
> density causes a more rapid degradation of the culture?

Extremely unlikely.  Ideally we'd all pitch slurries w/ >%90 viability,
while a slant with 1% viability is a perfectly good.  That's the distinction
based on size - low viability is fine to begin a starter, but 90%+ is
desired for pitching.  WYpacks are meant to be cultured;  WLtubes are
supposedly pitchable.   We can tolerate 50% viability in a WY internal pack
but not a WL tube.

>  slurry was stored at 34 F ...

34F is a fine temp for storing yeast, but keeping an unfed  slurry for a
month usually results in unacceptably low viability.  The high autolysis
rate Del saw is dependent on the strain, storage environment  and yeast
condition prior to storage.

A nice project for someone with a microscope and a differential stain would
be to measure viability in some WL tubes.   My hunch is that WL tube yeast
are far under 50% viable at 6 months.  If  I'm wrong then hats off to Chris
White (what is his technique ?).  BTW dried yeast, like DCLs run around
60-80% viability when properly rehydrated - which isn't a winning feature.

====

Autolysis starts when a cell degrades so badly that the vacuoles are
breached and the catabolic enzymes are released to the cell interior.  First
the internal cell is degraded and eventually the cell wall is breached and
contents released to the beer or slurry.   Released enzymes are somewhat
damaging to other yeast cells, but vigorous cells can repair the damage
while compromised cells cannot.

Some studied causes of autolysis are ... cold shock, osmotic shock, shear
forces, pressure, (lack of) metabolites, starvation, free radicals, pH
(too low or too high), metal ions, and sensecence ('natural death').
Slurry storage at 0-2C(32-35F) w/ pH around 4.5  is about ideal.

Yeast which are stored in high alcohol environments (under beer, esp strong
beer) lose viability fast.  Placing slurry in low os-pressure nutrient
free media like water can cause shock excretion and early cell death.
Yeast which has fermented hi-grav beers often readily autolyze regardless of
storage medium.  Yeast which have remained in completely anaerobic storage
after growth limited fermentation generally have created internal stores of
carbohydrates (and squalene , a sterol precursor) and can be stored for an
extended period.   If these yeast are exposed to oxygen they quickly use
most of their carbo stores to create sterol from squalene and they then have
compromised storage carbos.   In one study slurries exposed to O2 dropped to
<50% viability about twice as fast as anaerobic slurries;  5 days vs 10 days
at 18C.

If you handle a slurry under anaerobic conditions and store around 2C you
can expect the slurry to have good viability levels for *around* two weeks
but there are a lot of exceptions to this estimate.   A month is difficult,
but not impossible.

Yeast autolysis in beer causes a clear increase in beer pH.    It also
causes a flavor impact the Brits call "yeast-bite".  In "yeast bite" the
yeast flavor components become stronger and there is a broad, unpleasant
bitterness in the beer.   The decaying cells release lipids which will
damage foam/head and can later result in all of the very nasty fatty acid
related flavors the books describe - rancid aromas.  The proteolytic enzymes
can also have a negative impact on beer foam and body.   Sulfur aromas can
arise late, but that's not a sure thing at all.  "The impact of yeast
autolysis on beer flavor is dependent on the extent of autolytic damage, but
at it WORST will give rise to a 'yeast bitten' palate"[BY&F, my emphasis -
sja].   Don't expect rubber tires in your beer from autolysis - the first
autolysis damage is far more subtle.

In stored slurries all of these defects are intensified.    I recently threw
out a couple very old slurries I never got around to re-using - WL's Irish
ale yeast abt 4 months old.    No sulfur aromas at all.   It smelled very
bread-yeasty which is a sign of autolysis and had considerably darkened.
You can tell that there are changes to the surface tension as you jiggle the
jar - few bubbles means there is excess lipid released via autolysis.

 -Steve Alexander








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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:54:50 -0500
From: Jennifer/Nathan Hall <hallzoo at comcast.net>
Subject: RIMS piping flush

Hey all you homebuilt RIMS'ers out there, I was hoping you could provide some
insight on how you initially flushed your RIMS piping. I've used silver solder
with water soluble paste flux. I've already performed two hot water flushes
and wanted to know what compounds you may have used to flush out your lines.
Thanks for the help!

Nate Hall
BBV Brewery
Charleston, S.C.
[674.9,160.8] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 12:36:13 -0800 (PST)
From: John <j2saret at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:  Overnight Mash

I use the oven as part of my mash proceedure.  The
lowest the oven temp will go is 170f I turn the oven
off just before I put a 155f mash into it and I lose
about 5degf of mash temperature in 30 min.  I do not
think that the oven will hold heat overnight as the
space around the mashing kettle is too great.


- ----Maybe you could remove the racks from your oven,
heat it up to about 
150 or
so, then turn it off and keep your cooler in there
overnight. This 
should
minimize the temperature difference between the inside
& outside temps, 
and
therefore greatly reduce the heat loss. Just be sure
the oven isn't too 
hot----

John
(545.3, 308.5)
otherwise known as Duluth Mn


___________________________________________________________
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software.
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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:13:23 -0800
From: jmcdonald at library.caltech.edu
Subject: RE: brewing etymology 


Chris -

The Oxford English Dictionary entry for WORT has multiple meanings and an
etymology listed for it (you may have access to the OED through your local
university or public library).  

Was first seen in print c1000 and comes from the Olde English term "wyrt"
meaning root, plant; the Olde Saxon term "wurtja" meaning spicery; and the
Germanic term "wurze" meaning spice, brewer's wort.  It is closely related
to the noun Wort (c825 in printed literature) used to refer to any plant,
vegetable or herb used for food or medicine.

 Wort (beer) must be closely related to Wort (food, herb) since we all know
beer is both food AND medicine.


John McDonald
Pasadena, CA

(formerly of Champaign IL - Go Illini!)



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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:29:37 -0800 (PST)
From: "Raj B. Apte" <raj_apte at yahoo.com>
Subject: sour mash without the stink

I love sour beer (Belgian styles, Berliner Weisse,
&c). But I don't know why people keep following the
disgusting sour mash technique from Papazian.
Lactobacilli are anaerobic, so there is no need to
keep souring beer open to the atmosphere. By using a
fermentation lock, you save yourself quite a bit of
mess and off flavors (as well as anger from anyone who
might be trying to prepare or eat food nearby).

My basic technique: do a complete, normal grain mash.
Decoct as much of the unhopped, unboiled liquor as you
wish to sour (or maybe all of it). This is heated to
85C for 30m to kill most of the bugs. Force cool and
pitch with your souring culture of choice. Put in
carboy with airlock. It will have a nice, lactic
sourness in a few days. 

Souring cultures can be made by steeping raw grain in
wort and propagating much as you would bottle dregs.
Kefir and yoghurt cultures also work well. I have
heard of using malo-lactic cultures (intended for
winemaking). And if all else fails there is Wyeast. I
haven't compared Pediococcus and Lactobacillus, but
with the other cultures there is as much variation as
in yeasts. I've even tried spitting into a gallon of
wort--it didn't sour, just turned estery and fruity
before ethanolic fermentation took over (apparently I
drink enough good beer to keep a culture going). I
recommend souring several bottles of wort, choosing
one, and propagating it as you would your house yeast.
Expect that some kind of yeast will live in your sour
culture unless you select colonies.

Finally, you can pasteurize the sour before blending.
However, hops are very good at stopping souring, and
if the main wort is hoppy I'll just dump the sour mash
straight in. Don't try this below 20IBU.
raj





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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:49:38 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Fermenter Recirculation #5 - Bad Idea

This, I expect, will be my last message on this subject unless I am asked a 
question about it.  I explain here why I have abandoned the experiment due 
to an unforeseen, but very unpleasant consequence.

In HBD 4128, I posted a message saying I had begun an experiment to 
determine the effects of using a pump to provide continuous recirculation 
of the contents of my cylindro-conical fermenter while fermenting a 
high-gravity (1.075) porter.  I posted progress reports in HBD 4130, 4131 
and 4168, and continued to use the technique for two more 10-gallon 
batches.  Briefly put, the benefits I observed were (1) very vigorous and 
rapid fermentation,  (2) very thorough fermentation, and (3) lots of 
blowoff, which is a benefit only if one is concerned with expelling a great 
deal of the trub and hop crud that is brought to the top in the early 
stages of fermentation.

The one disadvantage I observed prior to two days ago was a considerable 
amount of heat generated by the continuous pumping, which had to be removed 
in order to keep the fermentation temperature at the desired level.  But I 
have now discovered an additional negative effect, which I consider to be 
so bad as to vastly outweigh any positive effects.

Two days ago, I brewed a batch of IPA.  And while preparing the fermenter 
to receive it, I decided to disassemble and examine the pump I had used to 
recirculate the ferment of the last batch, which was a Belgain Wit.  To my 
great disappointment, I discovered that the new rotor shaft I had installed 
in the pump just before fermenting the Wit had been rather impressively 
damaged by the seven days of recirculating the fermenting wort.  There was 
considerable erosion and scoring of the Titanium rotor shaft, that could be 
easily seen by the unaided eye.  Indeed, there was a very deep step carved 
into the shaft, which had been a $20 replacement part.  I have not yet 
assessed the damage to the bore of the rotor, but I am not expecting to be 
pleased by what I find there.

So I have abandoned the experiment.  Whatever modest benefit may have 
accrued from recirculating the fermenting wort was not worth the cost of 
rapidly tearing-up an expensive pump.  It was an interesting experiment, 
but much too costly to continue.

Dave in Bel Air, MD



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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:55:06 -0500
From: mjkid at rochester.rr.com
Subject: Call for Judges (Northeast Regionals)

Greetings Beerlings,

	The Upstate New York Homebrewers Association is 
pleased to be once again hosting the AHA Northeast Regionals. 
Judging will be held Saturday, April 26 and Sunday, April 27 in 
lovely Rochester, New York. Judging will be held at Rohrbach 
Brewing Company, 3859 Buffalo Road, Rochester NY 14624. 
Sessions will begin at 9:00 Am and 1:00 PM both days. Lunch will 
be served at the brewpub. Come on out and help us judge and/or 
steward. We have an online registration form to make things easy. 
Go to http://www.unyha.com/2003_nhc_first_round.htm , and click 
on the on-line registration link. Or drop me an email at 
webmaster at unyha.com .

Hope to see many of you there!

Mike Kidulich
Upstate New York Homebrewers Association






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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:43:46 -0500
From: Donald Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net>
Subject: Sugar-Free Root Beer

My wife would like me to make a "diet" root beer, without
any sugar. I can make a really good tasting regular root
beer, but if I switch to using an artificial sweetener like
Splenda or Equal, I have some concerns that there may be a
fermentable component in the sugar substitute, even though
the human body may not process it as a sugar. 

I also wouldn't know how much sugar that would be added for
carbonation. In the regular root beer recipe, some of the
sugar is used up in carbonating the root beer. The rest
sweetens it. 

Even if the sweetener has no fermentable component, it's not
a simple matter of substituting the sugar in the recipe for
an amount of the substitute that gives the same sweetening
power, since some of the sugar is turned into alcohol and
CO2, thus becoming a bit less sweet when it is finished.

Has anyone done something like this successfully?

Are there any chemists out there that know whether or not
these sweeteners have a fermentable component?

Thanks in advance. 

Don Hellen



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---