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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Hops in Pots? ("Steven Gray")
  Re: White labs 530 abbey ale origins (Steve McKenna)
  Water Discussion A (John Palmer)
  Water Discussion B (John Palmer)
  Fermenter Recirculation #5 - Bad Idea ("Braam Greyling")
  H20 Chemistry (David Perez)
  Sour Mash without the Stink. ("Dan Listermann")
  Diet Rootbeer ("Dan Listermann")
  Brewing terms ("A.J. deLange")
  RE: mineral additions (Brian Lundeen)
  Mineral additions ("Bill Frazier")
  Re: Sugar-Free Root Beer (Jeff Renner)
  RE: RIMS piping flush ("Joris Dallaire")
  Assistance for Australian Brewer ("Roy Strohl")
  yeast autolysis & reuse (Craig Agnor)
  Kettle for Oven Mashing (Stuart Lay)
  copper coil wort chillers ("Hanlon, Steve")
  Diet??? Root Beer (Richard Foote)
  Water treatment was: stream water ... ("-S")
  High Oxalate in Draft, low in bottle? ("Thomas Oakes")
  re: white film(return of the white floaties)/enzymes ("-S")
  Speaking of Piping Flush... (Richard Foote)
  freezing yeast experiment (Rama Roberts)


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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:31:47 -0800
From: "Steven Gray" <sn.gray at verizon.net>
Subject: Hops in Pots?

I am considering starting some hops this spring, but the available garden
space is a bit low.  Has anyone had any luck growing them in big pots, say 5
to 10 gallons and leaving them there?

I wonder if they would survive for more than a season or two as long as I
tended them as well as one could in pots.

I sure it's worth a try, but I hate to kill good hops......  Seems wrong
somehow.....

Thanks!
Steve



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 23:35:49 -0600
From: Steve McKenna <mckennst at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: White labs 530 abbey ale origins

Phil asks:
 >
 > Does anyone know where this yeast comes from?
 >
 > Their web site says, "Used in two of the six Trappist breweries 
remaining in the world."
 > So which two would that be?

I take this to be a reference to Westmalle, since Westmalle has a "brother" 
brewery, I believe it's Westvleteren (a.k.a. St. Sixtus), with whom they 
have a close relationship in both brewing and spiritual matters.  I assume 
they use the same yeast.




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:56:56 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: Water Discussion A

Ed asks some fair questions about brewing water chemistry, kind of on 
the order of, "But what does is all MEAN??" And several people replied 
in kind or offered answers to some of the questions. Since I was noted 
in the literature list, I thought I had better take another stab at it 
too.

However, before we talk about anyone's questions, we all need to repeat 
the
First Rule of Brewing Water:
KNOW WHAT YOUR INITIAL WATER CHEMISTRY IS.
This is like going into major surgery without knowing your blood type. 
No,
wait, it's more than that, it's like exploratory surgery without 
telling the
doctor what it is that's bothering you. Maybe you just have a stuffy 
nose.
You have got to know what you are working with before you try fixing it.
There are 6 specific ions that you are concerned with -- 3 only impact
flavor (Sodium, Chloride, and Sulfate) and the other 3 mostly impact 
mash
biochemistry and pH (Calcium, Magnesium, and Bicarbonate. If you are 
going
to do anything with your brewing water, whether it is extract or 
all-grain
brewing, you need to know what your starting point is. If a recipe 
calls for
2 teaspoons of gypsum, DON'T DO IT until you know how much you already 
have.
I will discuss how to use this information on your own water below.

To whit:
> BTW, I'm in Virginia Beach, VA and blessed with soft water.  The 
> profile
is as follows:  Calcium - 7 ppm, Magnesium - 4 ppm, Sodium - 18 ppm,
Sulfate - 28 ppm, Bicarbonate alkalinity - 20 ppm, Chloride - 17 ppm and
a pH of 7.0.<
Here is the crucial information: From these numbers you know that the 
water
is similar to Pilsen and can calculate the Residual Alkalinity (near 
zero)
and determine that a base-malt-only mash pH would be about 5.7. This 
water
has no buffering power to speak of. We will use this information later. 
Most
brewing books, mine included, talk about recommended minimum 
levels/ranges
for these ions. I have a strong feeling that these recommended ranges 
come
from big commercial brewing with 30% adjuncts, where yeast nutritional 
needs
may be in doubt. I think that in an all-malt beer, including wheat 
beers,
that there is enough mineral contribution from the malt to satisfy the
yeast. This explains the success of brewing beer like Pilsner with low 
mineral
water.

> I've noted with interest a number of posts regarding water treatment
recently, and I'm getting more and more confused.  Before I get into my
questions, let me set the context.  I've been brewing for almost six
years, all grain for about five years.  When I first attended the
all-grain class at the local hb shop, the owner talked briefly about our
local water, and recommended that, for 5 gallons,  I add two tsp gypsum
to the mash, and two "capfuls" of lactic acid (based on the container
size he sold) to the sparge water.  I dutifully followed his
instructions and for several years brewed terrific beer, mostly American
pale ale, American wheat, and German hefeweizen.  I should add that I
also use a water filter, a Pur model attached to the faucet.<

Okay, first point: Why do we adjust brewing water?
a.  Extract Brewing: For flavoring purposes only.
The flavoring ions are Na, Cl, and SO4, are added to the boil. 
Depending on
what your initial water chemistry is, you may want to add more of these
three ions to better mimic a brewing city/beer style. In rare cases, you
might need to add calcium or magnesium to the brew to facilitate yeast
metabolism, if you are brewing with near dead yeast, in a high refined 
sugar
content wort, etc. Rarely.

b. All-Grain Brewing: For Mash Performance *and* Flavoring.
In this case Ed is brewing lightly colored ales, which do not have a 
lot of
natural aciditiy in the malts. To mash/brew light colored beers, you 
need
water with low residual alkalinity. Hardness or softness of the water
(Calcium/Magnesium content) has nothing to do with it (much). The 
primary
factor that determines what type(s) of malts/beer styles a water is best
suited for is the Bicarbonate ion. The bicarbonate ion is alkaline and 
will
raise the mash pH. Malts have natural acidity, and darker malts are more
acidic. To brew light colored beer in areas of Low alkalinity, you don't
need to do anything - the resultant mash pH will be within the desired 
range
of 5.1-5.5 at mash temperature. If you brew dark beers in an area of Low
alkalinity, the mash pH will be lower than ideal; if you brew light 
colored
beers in an area of High alkalinity, your mash pH will be higher than 
ideal.
Adjusting the mash pH with calcium, magnesium, and/or bicarbonate to 
allow
you to brew with a certain grainbill/style is the primary reason to 
adjust
your water. And since you are only doing it to adjust the mash pH, you 
only
need to do salt additions to the mash and the mash water volume.
Adjustment of sparge water may not be necessary. More on this later.


> I guess I've gotten a little bored and want to move into more
challenging areas, so I've gotten interested in the idea of matching
water to various beers.<
Okay, this is a common desire for brewing Dortmunder Export, Burton Ale,
etc. But, let's not put the cart before the horse. These styles grew 
out of
the local water conditions, the brewers did not create the water to 
match
the style. Water chemistry is hard to adjust because it is very 
interactive.
Be prepared to accept half the pie, and not the whole pie when you are
trying to achieve a beer that is perfectly to style. There is a big, 
dirty
secret when it comes to matching the water of brewing cities, a secret 
that
AJ has talked about in the past, but one that I am not sure if most 
people
understand. The published water reports are usually ANNUAL AVERAGES, 
often
from MULTIPLE SOURCES, and the numbers usually don't add up to the 
quoted
water pH. This means that the listed profile may be physically 
impossible to
achieve, the combination of ion levels listed cannot exist together. 
So, you
need to be satisfied with a profile that is "close enough" and your 
first
cut at "close enough" is to look for a grainbill/residual alklinity 
mash pH
that falls within the desired range. This is where my nomograph, and 
AJ's
Residual Alkalinity Chart come into play. Either one will help you 
target
salt additions to add your known water to approach a mash chemistry for 
your
target style.
Once you have your mash chemistry figured out, you can look at the 
flavor
ions to see if there is room to add those. Often, flavor ion additions 
can
be limited to the boiling pot where the quantity of water to treat is
smaller and they are easier to dissolve. (Gypsum does not dissolve well 
in
plain water, even in plain hot water; it needs the acidity of the wort.)

John Palmer
john at howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:58:06 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: Water Discussion B



> In the literature that is readily available, I
find very little information about how to add treatments, specifically
at what point in the brewing process.  The authors do mention certain
types of water adjustments, frequently in parts per million, but little
attention seems to be paid to when or how the adjustment should be made.
Noonan does refer to treating "brewing water" which implies to me that
all water should be treated.<

For Extract brewing, add it to the boil.
For All-Grain brewing, add it to the mash if for chemistry, and/or to 
the
boil for flavor.
It is difficult to add chalk and gypsum to the sparge water because of
limited solubility. So, a lot of people add acid to the sparge water. 
The
question that has always nagged me though is, How much do you add? That
quantity is going to depend on your water chemistry AND your grainbill. 
The
only way to do it that I know of is by trial and error with a pH meter 
or
test strips. What a pain in the ass. If you cut off your runnings in the
teens when continuous sparging, or bump up your grainbill and batch 
sparge,
then I don't think you need to worry about treating your sparge water.

> I think that most treatment is done to make the mash more efficient, 
> but
I'm not sure if that's the only thing.  I'm also not sure if pH is
important beyond facilitating enzyme activity and preventing leaching of
tannins.<

Mash pH adjustment is done to facilitate the enzyme reactions and to 
avoid
tannin extraction at pH 6 and above. That's all.

> So here are the questions.  The most commonly used (in my limited
experience) water treatments seem to be gypsum, lactic acid, salt, Epsom
salt, and calcium chloride.  At what point in the brewing process should
these be added? <
See discussion above.

> When an amount is given for 5 gallons, should it be
adjusted upward if added early in the process when the total brewing
water used will be much higher (i.e., does the stuff evaporate)? <
No, the flavor ions do not evaporate. Acids will evaporate, but their 
work
is already done.

> What
do I really need to know about pH?  I know that detailed knowledge is
not crucial, because I've made fine beer without ever testing pH.  But
ignorance is no longer bliss.<

Residual Alkalinity helps you predict the mash pH which is the most
important. The water pH indicates the buffering power of the water, and 
the
propensity of the mash pH to rise during the sparge, and the resultant
propensity for tannin and silicate extraction.  Water pH is useful
information in that it tells you about the buffering power of the water.
Water above 8 pH has a fair amount of buffering power. If it's above 8.5
then it has a lot of buffering power, and if you are brewing a light 
colored
beer, you may have to be concerned with rising pH during the sparge. 
That's
the reason that people add acid. But you can get around that problem by
monitoring your runnings and stopping the sparge when the gravity falls 
off
to 1.016 or less (from data in Malting and Brewing Science). Since Ed's
water has a residual alkalinity of zero and a pH of 7 (no buffering 
power),
he can brew light colored beers without fear, his mash pH will not rise
appreciably during the sparge.

> I know that books are written on this subject, and I'd love to find one
that addresses these questions in simple how-to form for the home
brewer.  I've read Palmer, Papazian, Daniels, Noonan, Miller, Mosher,
and perhaps the answers are there and I missed them.  If anyone has
another good reference, please let me know.  I have ProMash, and I can't
find answers there either.<

The brewing software programs like Promash will let you calculate how 
much
gygsum, etc, to add to achieve a certain mineral profile, based on your
water. They will help you calculate the amounts based on how much water 
you
plan to treat.

  Well, I hope this helped. It's a different explanation than is found 
in my
book but I like it. I think I will incorporate these ideas in the next
edition.
John Palmer
Monrovia, CA
www.howtobrew.com

John Palmer
john at howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing



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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 09:13:03 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: Fermenter Recirculation #5 - Bad Idea

David,

Why don't you buy a cheap magnetically coupled aquarium pump ?
Although it can't stand heat, the plastic wont react with the beer.

Regards

Braam Greyling 




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 05:29:03 -0500
From: David Perez <perez at gator.net>
Subject: H20 Chemistry

OK here's my thing with water chemistry (other than my complete 
ignorance of it, despite educated efforts to remediate me).  How do you 
adjust the mineral contents to match a particulate water profile without 
mucking it all up? For instance, our water in Gainesville FL has:

136 Total hardness (CaCO3)
41 Total Alkalinity
8.75 pH
26 Ca  
15.2 Mg
9.5 Na
82 SO4
26 Cl
457.6 HCO3

When I use Promash to calculate the required mineral adjustments to 
match the "Ideal Stout" water profile, I can't figure out which compound 
to add. If I add CaSO4 to get the Calcium up it raises the SO4 too high. 
I played around with each of the compounds and found similar undesirable 
results.

If you chose to respond, please remember that I and the other members of 
our bjcp study group are total water morons and need it dumbed down. To 
be honest I don't even really know what I have asked here!

Dave Perez
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL




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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 08:29:01 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Sour Mash without the Stink.

: "Raj B. Apte" <raj_apte at yahoo.com> points out that lactobacillus is
anaerobic and requires no O2.  Further the aerobic bacteria cause stink so
it is to the brewer's advantage to keep O2 at bay.  He suggests using an air
lock, but I learned a even better way from a friend who makes sour kraut.
He sets up the kraut and puts a plastic bag in the vessel that he fills with
water to a couple of inches deep.  This bag forms a perfect seal over the
kraut.  I have done this with a sour mash using hot water.  The mash had no
stink at all.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 08:32:48 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Diet Rootbeer

 Donald Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net>
>My wife would like me to make a "diet" root beer, without
>any sugar. I can make a really good tasting regular root
>beer, but if I switch to using an artificial sweetener like
>Splenda or Equal, I have some concerns that there may be a
>fermentable component in the sugar substitute, even though
>the human body may not process it as a sugar.

I would highly recommend against trying to do this.  The artificial
sweetener may not ferment, but it can act as a yeast nutrient to allow the
yeast to reproduce and cause explosions.  I had a customer who tried this.
It caused bottles to blow up.

Reconsider selling your kegging setup.  It would work perfectly in kegs with
artificial carbonation.


Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:34:41 +0000
From: "A.J. deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Brewing terms

The reason some of the brewing terms are not found in the OED is that 
they are German words. Trub is an example of this coming from the German 
Tru:ben meaning to make closudy or turbid (and also bleak, melancholy 
"Kraut and Ru:ben habe mich betru:ben..."). Krausen means to be ruffled 
or curled up or frilled. these words have not, perhaps, made it into 
English officially yet although they are certainly to be found rolling 
off the tongues of brewers in this country along with other solid German 
words like Spund, Zwickel, Vorlauf... I believe our wort (especially the 
way we pronounce it) came with the German immigrant brewers from the 
German wu:rze rather than through old English.  Many English words 
(about 40%) are of German origin, as is their Queen (with another 15% 
being of Greek origin as is her consort) and the rest - well, let's not 
go there.

A.J.



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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 09:38:18 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: mineral additions


> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 07:41:08 -0500
> From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
> Subject: Mineral additions

> If one knows the desired ion concentrations of the brewing 
> water for the region/syle being duplicated, one can simply 
> add the appropriate amount of salts to the kettle at the 
> beginning of the boil 

It is so good to know I am not alone in this practice. If we're doing it
wrong Fred, at least we're in this together. ;-)

My technique varies slightly, but I approach it with the same philosophy.
It's the final concentrations in the finished volume that matter. I do add
some salts (and potassium metabisulfite, of course ;-))to the mash water to
aid in pH adjustment. What I add, and how much will of course depend on the
style. The lighter beers will typically get calcium chloride, the very dark
beers get a shot of calcium carbonate. The kettle gets some Epsom salts,
some gypsum if sulfates are appropriate to the style, and calcium chloride
if it wasn't put into the mash. I've found this seems to suit my water,
which is a mix of filtered tap and RO water, YMMV.

I use Ken Schwartz's excellent BreWater program for my calculations. I find
it works the way I think, if that makes sense. I put in my final volume, the
amount of RO dilution being used, and then start playing with salts to hit
the numbers I want. Since I don't sparge, I don't need to take sparge water
chemistry into account, just what I need for the mash, and the final makeup
after dilution in the kettle. The Wizard is way cool as a starting point,
but since I can't measure salts to a thousandths of a gram, some rounding is
usually called for. ;-)

I dunno, maybe this is all wrong, but it's the way I've been doing it for
years.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:44:08 -0600
From: "Bill Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Mineral additions

"There have been a number of recent posts regarding brewing water mineral
additions. One among us stated that it is best for all of the brewing water
should be adjusted at the beginning."

I'm one of the "adjust at the beginning" brewers.
My Kansas City area water contains enough minerals to please anyone plus
a pH around 9.0 most of the year.  So, I dilute local water with RO water to
get most of the minerals near my target.  Then I add some Gypsum or Ca.
Chloride depending on the type beer being brewed.  This means a LW/RO
ratio of 1/9 for pilsners to get the sulfate down to 15ppm.  For ales I
dilute
50/50 to get Mg and Na low, then add gypsum to get sulfate up to 150ppm.
I brew 6 gallon batches and need about 9 gallons of brewing water for a
batch.  I make up 10 gallons of brewing water a day or so ahead so there's
one less thing to do on brew day.

That said, some local fellows just brew with city water.  I guess that's OK
but
for lagers and light ales, like a Kolsch, I think you really need to get the
sulfate out.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas





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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:45:51 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Sugar-Free Root Beer

Donald Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net> writes:

>My wife would like me to make a "diet" root beer, without
>any sugar. I can make a really good tasting regular root
>beer, but if I switch to using an artificial sweetener like
>Splenda or Equal, I have some concerns that there may be a
>fermentable component in the sugar substitute, even though
>the human body may not process it as a sugar.
>
>I also wouldn't know how much sugar that would be added for
>carbonation. In the regular root beer recipe, some of the
>sugar is used up in carbonating the root beer. The rest
>sweetens it.

Actually, making bottle conditioned artificially sweetened soda is 
easier than sugar-sweetened soda - not excess sugar to cause bottle 
grenades.  You simply calculate use enough sugar to carbonate 
naturally the same as beer, then subtract this amount from the soda 
recipe and replace this remaining amount of sugar with the equivalent 
amount of artificial sweetener.  When the sugar ferments out, you 
should have properly carbonated, properly sweet, stable soda.

Of course, kegging and artificial carbonation eliminates any 
fermentation/carbonation problems, and some potassium sorbate helps 
keep things from growing in kegged soda.

I have found that the typical recipe that comes with root-beer 
extract makes it too sweet, so you might want to consider cutting 
down.  Also, some maltodextrine adds a creaminess that I find 
pleasant - rather like Hires "draft" root beer.

I'm not a chemist, but I'm quite sure that these artificial 
sweeteners are not fermentable.  However, Splenda at least does 
contain dextrose and maltodextrine as fillers.  The dextrose, of 
course, is fermentable, but there is so little that I don't think it 
would be a problem.

Jeff

- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 11:07:36 -0500
From: "Joris Dallaire" <Joris.Dallaire at meq.gouv.qc.ca>
Subject: RE: RIMS piping flush

Nate wants to knows the various methods used by RIMSers for removing the paste
flux from RIMS piping.

I run a solution of 1:100 bleach in water and boil with the RIMS. Once it is
boiling , let run the solution for about 5 minutes then purge. The paste sticks
from the water line to the bottom of the boiler; i wipe it off with a cloth,
then rinse the tank with water only and boil again to rinse the piping. Purge
again, and rince/recirculate with cold water two more times. Thats about it. If
you wanna know for sure if there ain't no paste left, fill the boiling tank,
recirculate a bit, and look at the surface of the water: the paste is floating
and easily visible as a greasy residue.

HTH,
Joris




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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 12:55:37 -0500
From: "Roy Strohl" <lstrohl at mwc.edu>
Subject: Assistance for Australian Brewer

This is a request for contact with Australian brewers. I have an Australian
friend located in Rockhampton who is in need of brewing advice. I have tried
to offer assistance for his brewing efforts from the US, but I think he needs
folks who are closer by who would be willing to help him get started. If you
would be interested in contacting him, please contact me offline so I can
forward your email address to him. Thanks in advance.

Roy Strohl

Fredericksburg, VA, USA

Apparent Rennerian 696.3 127.4 Km



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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 09:56:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Agnor <cagnor at emerald.ucsc.edu>
Subject: yeast autolysis & reuse


Hi there,

The recent thread on yeast autolysis and the month old slurry of Wyeast
#1338 in my fridge has me asking the following question:

Can a slurry that has undergone autolysis in a noticable way 
be recycled for beer making purposes?  

If so, what procedures are necessary?  Can you just pitch a little of the
slurry into a starter and be off an running again?  Does autolysis pollute
the slurry to the point that it is impractical/impossible to salvage?

TIA

Cheers,
Craig Agnor
Santa Cruz, CA



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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:01:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Stuart Lay <zzlay at yahoo.com>
Subject: Kettle for Oven Mashing

I'm looking for the largest kettle that will fit my
oven.   I set the oven
to 170 and stick the mash inside during rests to
maintain consistent temps.
Right now I've got a 7.5 gallon stainless pot, but
it's too small if I want
to make big beers (anything over .050).  

Turns out most residential ovens (not the professional
style stoves) have
about 12 - 12.5 inches of height available.  I know B3
has a 9 gallon pot
that would fit so long as the lid isn't on, but it
doesn't have handles.
Does anyone know of a larger one?  Aluminum is OK.

Thanks,

stuart
zzlay at yahoo.com





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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 13:10:05 -0500
From: "Hanlon, Steve" <SHanlon at dnr.state.md.us>
Subject: copper coil wort chillers

Greetings-

I'm new to homebrewing and have yet to brew my first batch.  
Hopefully I can get that started within a week or so.  
Budgeting time with a toddler is a science :) Here's my first 
of most likely many questions.
 
How much water is wasted using the copper coil wort chillers. 
>From what I understand, cold water from a faucet is run thru 
the coils while it is immersed in the wort.   A heat tranfer 
takes place and the "hot" water is run into a drain.  I 
realize the amount of water needed to transfer the heat of 
the wort depends on the temp of the wort, but I am curious 
how much water will be going down the drain.  Are we talking 
a few gallons or 10?

 -steve hanlon
 


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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:08:32 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Diet??? Root Beer

Donald Hellen writes:

>I also wouldn't know how much sugar that would be added for
>carbonation. In the regular root beer recipe, some of the
>sugar is used up in carbonating the root beer. The rest
>sweetens it. 

>Are there any chemists out there that know whether or not
>these sweeteners have a fermentable component?

I recommend avoiding the issue by force carbonating your root beer.  You
avoid the possibility of bottle rockets too!  Two to three days at 40
degrees F. and 30 psi works for me.  Of course this is only an option is
you have draft equipment.  Also, the preceding is based on sugar sweetened
root beer (7.5 cups/4 gal.).  Would non-sugar sweetened root beer force
carbonate slower or faster?  hmmmm...


Rick Foote
Whsitlepig Brewing
Murrayville, GA

P.S. Watch for the Tour de Georgia to go smack-de-dab through Murrayville
April 26!  Go Posties! (minus Lance--sorry)





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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:12:04 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Water treatment was: stream water ...

AJ writes ...

>[...]  but there was plenty of  E. coli as well. Little forrest
>creatures were pooping in my spring house - that was for sure!

W.C. Fields had an aversion to water for similar reasons, but he
wasn't attempting to brew beer.

I now live on a well system and although I don't have to deal with coliforms
and e.coli I do have bugs in my water (acceptable in number and type
according to the county bureaucrat).  An
inadvertent rinsing incident led to a lost batch of marzen which didn't make
me happy.   It's really nice to have a trustworthy supply of tap water and
so I intend to get back to that status.  The county suggests dosing wells
with chlorine bleach but as a brewer that's a less than appealing option.

I'm interested in advice or experience in residential water treatment.
Does anyone here have experience/knowledge on whole house UV or Ozone water
treatment ?  It looks like a good UV system (Sterilite) rated at
12gpm(~45L/minute)  is available for ~$450 with an annual bulb replacement
for about $100/yr.   I haven't found pricing or availability on ozonation
systems but these are apparently available too.  Any thoughts ?

 -S(teve Alexander)






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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:17:16 -0500
From: "Thomas Oakes" <tom at element117.com>
Subject: High Oxalate in Draft, low in bottle?

A family member is a nurse and recently brought home a flyer that outlines a
low oxalate meal plan.  Certain medical conditions are aided if you take in
less oxalate.

One of the low, and thus acceptable items, is bottled beer.  The flyer
suggests "distilled alcohol, bottled beer, and red or white wine is allowed
on occasion"
On the other extreme, in the high oxalate level column is draft beer.  The
flyer suggests this should be avoided.

Now, I've bottled and I've kegged... I've bottled and kegged the same batch
sometimes so how does the serving vessel make a difference?

I know commercial bottled beer is treated differently than kegged
(pasteurization) but why does one have such a lower amount of oxalate in it?
Web research on the subject found that everyone agrees that bottled is good
and draft is bad.  The presence of oxalate was part of the 'proof' that
Sumerians drank beer.  I also found a number of old posts on HBD about how
to remove oxalate but no mention of the difference between the amount of
oxalate ions in draft vs. bottled beer.

==Tom==

Thomas Oakes



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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:50:36 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: white film(return of the white floaties)/enzymes

Buck Wilke writes about a white film developing on his beer.    It didn't
cause any major off-flavors so he hit the beer with campden's tablets.

You likely have mold growing on the beer's surface, in my experience it's
likely from airborne spores.    You're likely to find that such mold growth
required a little O2 , so you're loose fitting lid is suspect.   SO2 from
campden tablets might stop the growth, but you'd better redouble your
sanitation efforts next time.   If you brew in a damp place like a basement
get a dehumidifier so you can drop the RH low enough to prevent mold growth.
Don't stir up any excess dust when handling cooled wort.    In an unfinished
space consider mopping down the area w/ a bleach solution.

====
'greg man' asks about overnight mashing and got some practical advice from
Steven Pfitt now on to  the impractical ...

>First do coolers lose heat in a linier scale?

No.   Generally there's a (1- e^-xT) type rate term at time T, but the
conductivity and convention and ambient  and heat capacity vs temp aren't
constant so that's not really accurate anyway.

>Will resting the  mash over night at say 158F destroy all of the beta
enzymes?

Resting  at 70C/158F for an 1 hour will destroy so much of the BA that it won't
make much difference what you do afterwards.   More than half the
Alpha-amylase will be lost in an hour too.   You won't need to worry about
any enzymes in the mash on day two.

>What about if the mash stays too long  at  130F? Will I have a headless beer?
>Or will it become very thin in body an mouth feel?

No.  The proteolytic enzymes are almost entirely denatured by the 158F rest.
- --
Your questions are all based on a lousy understanding of what is happening
with enzymes in the mash, especially there is a misunderstanding of
temperature optima.   Crash course.

1/ ALL enzymes act at a higher rate as temperature increases, usually
without limit up to the boiling point. [usually 2X to 3X faster per 10C
increase]
2/ ALL enzymes denature at a rate which increases rapidly with temperature.
Denaturing involves damage to the enzyme which prevents it from acting as a
catalyst, and USUALLY denaturing is irreversible. [often 4X-6X increase in
denaturing rate per 10C increase]
3/ A "temperature optima" for an enzyme means that for a SPECIFIC rest time
period that the optimal temperature will produce the maximal amount of
enzyme product.

>From rules 1/ and 2/ above we know that at lower temps we have lower
activity and lower denaturing rates.   At higher temps we have increased
activity and increased denaturing rates.

A temperature optima for a given enzyme and a fixed rest time means that if
the temp is any lower, then the lower activity(1/) dominates the lesser
denaturing rate(2/).   Above the optimal temp the increased denaturing
rate(2/) dominates the increased activity.   In a sense the 'optima' occurs
when the product change due to the denaturing rate balances the change due
to activity rate IN THE SPECIFIC REST TIME PERIOD.

Now forget all the BS you read about 122F being the protease optima, and
149F being the beta-amylase optima and 158F being an alpha-amylase optima.
Those so-called optima ONLY have meaning when you also specify the rest time
period and in these cases  the rest times are assumed to be 20 to 40 minutes
type figures, not overnight.

Let's consider as an example that in a 30 minute mash that beta-amylase(BA)
produces a maximal amount of product if held at 65C/149F (which is about
right).    What happens to the optimal temp if we only have 10 minutes to
rest ?    Obviously since we only have a short time we can afford to
denature enzymes at a higher rate (enough will survive for 10 minutes) and
we can thus use a higher temp and higher activity rate.    For a 10 minute
mash the optimal BA temperature is well above 65C, might be something like
72C/161F !

If we have a much longer time period - say 8 hours for an overnight mash -
then the optimal temperature will be much lower.   We will optimize the
product by reducing the denaturing rate and accepting the lower activity
rate.    You'll likely find that the temperature optima for an 8 hour mash
period will be at least 15C/30F LOWER than the optima that are typically
cited for brewing enzymes.

The total amount of enzyme product generated at a low-temp&long-time optima
is greater than at a higher-temp&shorter-time optima.

2'/ Corollary:   Because the 'optima' is a balance between activity and
denaturation rates, then reaching any time-temp optima pair for a given
enzyme implies the denaturing of much of that enzyme.    Higher temps and
longer periods beyond the optima will denature even more.  For example
spending 30 minutes at 65C will denature much of the BA, so will spending 10
minutes at 72C.   It's not possible to spend 60 minutes at 70C/158 and still
have any significant fraction of the BA or any other enzyme with a lower
time-temp optima (proteases,  peptidases, phytases) left intact.   One
cannot reverse the order of the mash steps since the lower temp enzymes will
get toasted by the higher temp.

The argument above is admittedly handwavey, but is completely supportable.

- ----
Some related thoughts:

Until the mash reaches gelatinization temps (~65C) you're enzymes will only
have a fraction (20-30%) of the goods to work on.   Even tho the
saccharification optima for an  8 hour mash might be 50C-55C for BA & AA,
this won't work since much of the starch is unavailable.

The amount of Alpha-amylase in a typical all-malt mash is far more than is
needed so only very incompetent mashing leaves starch.    Beta-amylase(BA)
OTOH is in short supply and every mash schedule should be designed around
the idea of getting just the desired amount of BA activity (or
fermentability) needed for the beer style.

As far as I can see the only practical overnight infusion option is to hit
the 65C gel temp or higher on day one and then expect that no significant
enzymes will survive overnight.

One could use decoction - say mash in at a low temp, decoct all the grist
which gelatinizes the starch, then return the grist for a rest temp around
50-55C for a very long overnight saccharification rest.   Of course
overnight mashing was meant to save time and decoction does the opposite.

The overnight mash is a great opportunity to oxidize the wort and to extract
tannins from the grist too.   I'm not saying I wouldn't do it if there was
no alternative, but I can't think of any quality related reason to recommend
the procedure.   I'd suggest that if you are going to overnight mash that
you add enough campden's tablets or bisulfate at mash-in to hit about 20ppm
of SO2 in the mash.   The SO2 is recommended by some of the German authors,
it prevents a good deal of oxidation and wort darkening and inhibits
lipo-oxygenase enzymes.  I and several other HBers use the method and like
it.  It appears to improve beer storage life as well.

 -S




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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:04:52 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Speaking of Piping Flush...

Brewerz,

Nate Hall's recent post brings up a topic I have been thinking about for
some time.  Nate had asked about flushing RIMS piping.  

Speaking of flushing...

Something that has vexed me for some time is the possible leaching of
elevated levels of copper into the constantly re-circulating wort.  I know
with my naturally acidic well water of 5.8 pH, I get green water in a
matter of a day or two when my chemical feed pump goes out or runs out of
soda ash soln.  It would seem that constantly re-circulating wort of
5.2-5.4 pH and at 100+ degree F. temperatures would lead to elevated copper
in the finished wort/beer.  This would seem to be true for HERMS and well
as RIMS with copper piping.

I know many of us have copper chillers, but the contact time is reduced and
you don't have the added factor of constantly moving liquid (for prolonged
periods) at elevated temps.  Now, if you add all the copper piping and
re-circulated flow, are there cumulative effects worth concern?

Is this reasoning flawed?  Are elevated copper levels possible?  If so, is
it a concern for yeast/humans?  Any info. appreciated.


TIA,

Rick Foote
Whistlepig Brewing
Murrayville, GA





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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 13:24:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: freezing yeast experiment

Steve Alexander wrote a ton on yeast (thanks Steve), including:
" Slurry storage at 0-2C(32-35F) w/ pH around 4.5  is about ideal. " 

It reminded me, I finally tried freezing half a white labs tube (WY001) to test 
it as an option to store yeast long term. It was first opened 11/02, so it 
spent 4 months in the freezer. I thawed it in 60-70F water, then pitched it 
into 300ml of wort. 2 days passed (at 68F) and there was no noticable activity.

It's possible there was some activity while I was away or sleeping, I didn't do 
a gravity check- but before dumping it a little more than 48 hours later, it 
was clearly still sweet. So either (most of) the yeast died during freezing, or 
the yeast were so crippled it took more than 48 hours to get going or ferment 
down completely. Either way, its not a viable long term yeast stategy.

- --rama



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