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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Kosher Salt In The Brewing Process (Fred and Sue Nolke)
  Autolysis - Treacle (Hayes Antony)
  THE 2003 UPPER MISSISSIPPI MASH-OUT! ("Al Boyce")
  Yeast Source needed ("Doug A Moller")
  Barley Wine Fermentation Curve (Hayes Antony)
  Erdinger Dunkel Weiss (Michael Hartsock)
  Buffering ("A.J. deLange")
  Recipe (Michael McGuire)
  St. Louis County Water analysis ("Reddy, Pat")
  step mashing 60/70 rests ("Reddy, Pat")
  Re: Yeast for Oktoberfest (Jeff Renner)
  Words (was things) ("-S")
  Re comments on Mineral additions  by Fred L Johnson ("Cave, Jim")
  RE: does anyone have a Sabco Brew Magic?? (Ted Teuscher)
  water chemistry (Marc Sedam)
  Hops in Pots ("Jay Spies")
  RE:  solenoids: Normally CLosed ("Mike Sharp")
  RE: solenoids and mash mixers ("Mike Sharp")
  Re: Fermenter Recirculation #5 - Bad Idea (David Towson)
  Re; Fermenter recirculation #5 - Bad Idea (David Towson)
  Re: Water From Chillers ("Ross")
  mixmasher (aa8jzdial)
  what really smells... ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  final degree of fermentation Wyeast 3068 (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at AkzoNobel.com>
  17th Annual Big & Huge Homebrew Competition (Mark Garthwaite)
  Sam's Superstore. (ensmingr)
  Hops in Pots ("Mark Kellums")
  Buffered systems ("Dave Burley")
  Brewers Workshop 4.0 ("William Plotner")


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Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 21:33:28 -0900
From: Fred and Sue Nolke <fnolke at alaska.net>
Subject: Kosher Salt In The Brewing Process

The discussions of water chemistry reminded me of  Morton Kosher salt as 
a beer ingredient.  I came accross a brewster in one of the "Thames 
Valley" breweries using it... and her beers were pretty exceptional, 
primarily because of some creative, for England, late hopping.  Any 
ideas about the effect of a pinch of NaCl added to the kettle with the 
FWH hops?    Thanks,

Fred Nolke - Anchorage 



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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 09:39:07 +0200
From: Hayes Antony <HayesA at aforbes.co.za>
Subject: Autolysis - Treacle

The flavour descriptor that I have found useful for autolysis is meaty or
brothy (like a cup of Bovril - do you get Bovril in the US).

I have noticed that those porters where I add a bit too much treacle tend to
have a similar smell, and are often described as exhibiting autolysis
aromas. Is this simply the smell of fermented treacle, or does treacle
encourage autolysis?

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg


Confidentiality Warning
=======================
The contents of this e-mail and any accompanying documentation
are confidential and any use thereof, in what ever form, by anyone
other than the addressee is strictly prohibited.



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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 06:18:48 -0600
From: "Al Boyce" <aboyce at mn.rr.com>
Subject: THE 2003 UPPER MISSISSIPPI MASH-OUT!

THE 2003 UPPER MISSISSIPPI MASH0OUT!
Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota

The Minnesota Home Brewers Association and the St.Paul Homebrewers Club
announce the second annual 2003 Upper Mississippi Mash-Out
Homebrew Competition for all BJCP Categories (including Cider and Mead)
in Minneapolis and St. Paul, Minnesota

(A qualifier for the High Plains Homebrewer of the Year award!)

April 11-20, 2003: Entries Accepted (All BJCP categories, including Cider
                               and Mead)
May 1-3, 2003:      Judging (NEW!  Beds for Judges program)
May 2, 2003:         Twin Cities Pub Crawl (9pm) starting from Radisson
                               Metrodome
May 3, 2003:         Blessing of the Bock at Town Hall Brewery (6pm)
May 3, 2003:         Awards Ceremony at Summit Brewing (8pm)

Information and Online registration for beers and judges available at:
http://www.mnbrewers.com/mashout

Judging will be held at the Radisson Metrodome:
http://www.radisson.com/minneapolismn_metrodome



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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 06:52:59 -0600
From: "Doug A Moller" <damoller at intergate.com>
Subject: Yeast Source needed

Hi,
I am looking for a Bavarian wheat yeast CL930 I used to get it from Brewers
Resource. Does anyone know how to get some. Are there any other yeast
sources other than the 2 in all the shops?

Doug




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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:00:50 +0200
From: Hayes Antony <HayesA at aforbes.co.za>
Subject: Barley Wine Fermentation Curve

I brewed my first barley wine two weeks ago. It has fermented (using DCL
S-23 at 18C) as follows:

Start: 26,5P
1 week: 14P
10 days: 12P
14 days: 9,5P

Promash predicts that it will get down to 3,5P, although quarter gravity,
i.e. 6,6P seems a bit more likely. The Classic Series Barley Wine book just
says that these fermentations are drawn out.

Does this fermentation curve look typical?
How low do these things go (it was 100% lager malt based - 65C mash temp)?

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg


Confidentiality Warning
=======================
The contents of this e-mail and any accompanying documentation
are confidential and any use thereof, in what ever form, by anyone
other than the addressee is strictly prohibited.



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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 06:13:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Erdinger Dunkel Weiss

I tasted this the other night, and immediately fell in
love.  

What I'm looking for is info about how to approximate
the wonderful flavors of this brew.  

In other words, any idea about the percent of wheat
malt, the other base malts to use, what percentage of
crystal, chocolate, etc?

What sort of hopping schedule and what varieties?

Is the bottling strain for the secondary fermentation
the same strain used for fermentation.  I'd like to
culture it out of the bottle.

What fermentation temp should I shoot for?

mike

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 14:21:48 +0000
From: "A.J. deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Buffering

A glass of water drawn from the tap will have a particular pH determined 
by the relative concentrations of that water's carbonic (molecules),  
bicarbonate (ions) and  carbonate (ions). These form a buffering system 
 - in fact 2. Buffering refers, as John pointed out, to the ability to 
resist pH change. Buffering capacity is a measure of that resistance. 
The usual definition is the  amount of an acid (or base) which is 
required to move the pH a small amount divided by the small pH change 
(OK, it's the reciprocal of the derivative of pH wrt the acid/base 
addition) expressed in units of milliequivalents per pH . If carbonic 
and bicarbonate are present in equal strength the pH will be about 6.35 
and the buffering capacity of the system will be at a maximum. If 
bicarbonate and carbonate are present in equal strength (a condition you 
hope to never meet) the pH will be about 10.4 and buffering capacity 
will be at a maximum again. If only bicarbonate is present (i.e. you put 
a spoonful in a glass of water) the pH will be about 8.3 but the 
buffering capacity will be very small. Thus the water contains two 
buffering systems: the carbonic/bicarbonate system  and the 
bicarbonate/carbonate system. Note that neither of these is a good 
buffering system in that carbonic/bicarbonate will lose CO2 to the air 
and the bicarbonate/carbonate system will precipitate carbonate if any 
calcium or magnesium is present. When the relative concentrations of the 
species that make up the buffering system are not equal the system still 
serves as a buffering system but with capacity reduced realative to what 
it is when the species are in equal concentration. As a rule of thumb 
one tries to design buffers within 1 pH of the pK (the pH at which the 
species are in equal concentration).

This is fine for background but it is not the definition of buffering 
capacity of interest to brewers. For brewers the buffering capacity is 
the amount (milliequivalents) of acid require to move the pH from 
whatever it is out of the mains to 4.3 which is the amount of acid 
required to convert all the  bicarbonate (and carbonate)  to carbonic. 
At that pH 99% of the "carbo"  will be in the form of cabonic. At mash 
pH of 5.2 the corresponding figure is 93% and 5.6 it is 85%. Thus the 
goal is to convert most of the bicarbonate (and carbonate if there is 
any) to carbonic acid so it can escape is a gas in the mash/boil. The 
buffering capacity, so defined, is called the alkalinity of the water 
(water chemists use a similar definition except that the end point pH is 
a little different from 4.3 depending on the alkalinity of the sample). 
When grist is added to water phosphate in the malt coalesces with 
calcium and magnesium in the water precipitating calcium and magnesium 
phosphates and releasing hydrogen ions (acid). These combine with 
bicarbonate (and carbonate) to form carbonic which then escapes. If 
there is insufficient equivalent  calcium hardess (calcium hardness plus 
half the magnesium hardness) to convert all the bicarbonate to carbonic 
the acid required to convert the rest is the residual alkalinity. The 
goal is to have  residual alkalinity 0 or less than 0 (though small 
positive values are OK) in other words to --> remove as much of the 
water's natural buffering from the system as possible so that you can 
control mash pH by selecting malts <--.

So now what determines the pH of the mash? The answer is the dozens(?) 
of buffering systems formed by the acids of the malt itself. Any system 
in which the reaction H(n)A(-m) --> H+   + H(n-1)A(-(m+1)) i.e. where a 
molecule or ion looses a proton leaving an ion with a negative charge 
(or a larger negative charge) is taking place is a buffering system. 
Whether it has any capacity or not depends on whether the pH of the 
system is close (1 unit) to the pK (a measure of the energy required to 
remove the proton) of the particular acid. In a multiple buffering 
system, like the double carbo system described in the first paragraph, 
if one plots buffering capacity vs. pH one sees two peaks (at the pKs 
6.35 and 10.4 and a dip in between at 8.3). If one does the same for a 
mash (or even for a single malt) the curve has no such features. It is 
in fact, made up of so many peaks and valleys that they all run together 
into a smooth curve.

A.J.



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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 09:35:43 -0500
From: Michael McGuire <mcguirmd at georgetown.edu>
Subject: Recipe

MCAB-V Brown Porter Recipe:

2 lbs. brown malt (Thomas Fawcett, 57L)
3/4 lb biscuit malt
7 lbs. maris otter pale malt
3 oz. chocolate malt
3 oz. roasted barley
10 oz. carafoam (Weyermann, 1.8L)

simple infusion mash

Boil with 1 oz Liberty hop pellets (alpha=3.2%) and 1 tsp gypsum - 60
mins.
Add 1/3 oz EKG pellets (alpha=5.5%) and 1 tsp Irish moss - final 10
mins.

Chill, rack to carboy, pitch 1 tube Wyeast 1084 (Irish Ale) made into
starter 4 days earlier

Rack to secondary after 5 days

Bottle/keg with 2/3 cup DME primer after 16 days

O.G.=1.057, F.G.=1.022

Brewed by Mike McGuire, BURP




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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 08:57:06 -0600
From: "Reddy, Pat" <Pat.Reddy at mavtech.cc>
Subject: St. Louis County Water analysis

Does anyone have one?  I contacted Missouri-American Water and they could
give me a report from 2001 but it doesn't include any hardness, bicarbonate,
or sulfate data.
Thanks.

Pat Reddy
MAVERICK Technologies
(618)281-9100 x134
pat.reddy at mavtech.cc
 



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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 09:17:13 -0600
From: "Reddy, Pat" <Pat.Reddy at mavtech.cc>
Subject: step mashing 60/70 rests

I am wanting to experiment with lower and upper Scarification rests at 60*
and 70*.
I'm somewhat familiar with Fix's 40/60/70 method but have decided to go with
the 60/70 only.
I suppose my first question is....
Is adding acid directly to the mash an acceptable alternative to the acid
rest at 40*?
My second is...
I have a herms system with the coil in the HLT and can easily ramp my
temperature between steps at about 1.5*/minute.
Any suggestions as to a good starting point for playing with rest periods at
these temps (60/70)?  I'm looking for something that will give close to the
same results as a single infusion at a given temperature so that I have a
reference point to base my experimental batches on.  I know Fix suggested a
30 minute rest at each, but I've also read that 15 minutes at 60 and 45 at
70 is a good "balanced" starting point.  

FYI...I am interested in brewing pales mostly - no lagers at this point.

Thanks.

Pat Reddy
MAVERICK Technologies
(618)281-9100 x134
pat.reddy at mavtech.cc
 



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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 10:07:51 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Yeast for Oktoberfest

"Rob Beck" <3rbecks at sbcglobal.net> asked

>Would the White Labs WLP 833 Bock/Ayinger strain be a good choice for an
>Oktoberfest?

This is a remarkable yeast, and my favorite lager yeast.  I think the 
only classic style I would not use it for a Bohemian Pilsner and 
perhaps a very dry North German Pils like Jever.  It works very well 
for most any other style, and while I haven't used it for a Fest 
beer, I think it would work very well.

My experience with the yeast is that it is very balanced between malt 
and hops, perhaps a bit toward the malt.  But I am able to get a very 
crisp Classic American Pilsner using it by mashing for full 
fermentability.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 11:13:37 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Words (was things)

AJdL >and the rest - well, let's not go there.
DanL >What if we want to go there?

I think AJ was referring to origin of the remainder of English words and
along with German and Greek the influence of the French language should be
mentioned.    I understand not going there.

 -S

'Caesar, [...]  fearing the fickle disposition of the Gauls, who are easily
prompted to take up resolutions, and much addicted to change, considered
that nothing was to be entrusted to them;'

 -  De bello gallico, book 4 script 5,  Julius Caesar, 55 BC





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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 08:20:35 -0800
From: "Cave, Jim" <Cave at psc.org>
Subject: Re comments on Mineral additions  by Fred L Johnson

	In theory, there is nothing wrong with just treating the water in
the kettle.  However, that is theory.  Mineral content is known to affect
the mash because the pH is controlled in part by the buffering effects of
the minerals in the water.  In particular Calcium Carbonate and Calcium
Suphate affect the pH of the Mash.  There are many references to this, for
example Ray Daniel's Book (Designing great beers) and George Fix's books to
name a couple. This could ultimately affect the ratio of fermentable to
unfermentable sugars in the mash I would presume.

	In addition, Fred writes "...I actually ignore the boil off volume
and simply do the math based upon the final kettle volume. That is, salt
additions are based merely upon the final volume of my batch (in the kettle,
not in the fermentor) and the ion concentrations of my local water. (So I'm
always low by about 15%, but I don't really care, and one could simply
adjust the additions based upon the boil off volume if one does care.)"

All the figures I have seen for mineral content are for the waters of
brewing regions, not the beers.  You would undershoot somewhat, but there is
variability within a region and wihin a style that would be at least as
great as your calculation.

Jim Cave


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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 08:39:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Ted Teuscher <t_teuscher at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: does anyone have a Sabco Brew Magic??

I got a Brew Magic recently and have only made 3
batches with it, so I am by no means an expert using
it yet. But here is my experience.

Use the LP burners to perform any large temperature
changes. Once you reach the desired temperaure (as
indicated on the analog dial temperaure probe) shut
the LP burner off. Then set the temperature controller
to the desired setpoint. You might need to adjust the
offset of the controller so the temperature reads the
same as the analog dial temperature probe. I have
noticed with my temperature controller (the probe
actually) that I have to add 1 to 2 degrees at 120 and
6 degrees at 150 to get the readings to match. The
type of probe being used is not very linear.

By changing the setpoint of the controller after the
LP burner has done its job will keep the heating
element from being on constantly. This should HELP
prevent excessive wort temperatures from being reached
around the heating elemnt chamber. I am probably wrong
about this but it can't hurt.

Make sure your flow rate isn't too high. Adjust the
valve so the wort shoots out about 3 to 4 inches at
the top of the mash. I assume the literature which
comes with the system means 3 to 4 inches from the
spout to the mash water level. If the flow rate is too
low then you can carmelize the wort (makes it get too
dark and can cause off flavors). If the flow rate is
too high then you can suck the wort from under the
flase bottom faster than the wort can drain through
the false bottom which can cause an impacted/stuck
mash. I have not had any problems with either. Just
make sure you get the flow adjusted correctly.

With the wort flow adjusted correctly, my controller
hasn't had any problems maintaining temperature. If
you shut the LP burner off a degree or two below your
desired temp and allow the heating element/ controller
to raise the temp the last degree or two, then I have
noticed an overshoot of a degree or two. This is due
to the amount of time it takes wort to flow through
the grain bed and reach the temperature probe of the
controller. Once the wort cools down that 1 degree of
overshoot, the system seems rock solid at holding any
temperature.

For those who don't know, the temperature probe on the
Sabco Brew Magic RIMS is before the heating element -
contrary to what has been agreed upon lately as the
optimal placement in a RIMS system.

I hope this helps Jim.

Cheers,
Ted


- ----------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 05:19:11 -0500
From: "jim williams" <jimswms at cox.net>
Subject: does anyone have a Sabco Brew Magic??

I guess this goes for any RIMS!??

I just got mine. The thing is great, but, I'm having a
problem hitting and
raising temps. I'm wondering what your experiences
are?
It seems like it takes 15 min. or so to actually
achieve the temp. I'm looking
for., by the time it drains out the bottom, goes
through the heater, ends up
on top of the mash, then filters down through the
mash.... at this rate, how
is a protein rest really possible??  What is your
method? Again, I guess this
goes for any RIMS system as it seems that it would be
a common problem!?

cheers,
jim




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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 12:07:19 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: water chemistry

OK, so I'm a little late to the game.  And OK, John P. covered most of 
the technical aspects of brewing water chemistry in a way much clearer 
than has been done before.  I'll still toss my $0.02 in on the practical 
aspects of brewing water chemistry.

First, understand that the water chemistry-beer style connection is one 
of practicality.  Brewers tried to brew many different styles of beer 
until they finally found one that overcame any inadequacies (pH, 
hardness, RA, etc.) and stuck with it.  Very few of the beers retain any 
organoleptic (fancy food science word for taste, flavor, smell, etc) 
properties of the water.  The two that do are always mentioned: 
 Dortmunder and IPA (sulfate).  Sure, the chalkiness in a porter or 
stout might be noticeable and slightly beneficial, but not a big deal.

So, knowing that most brewers try to do everything in their power to 
REDUCE the effects of their water on beer would suggest that HBers do 
the same.  I do think that Dortmunders and IPAs benefit from gypsum 
addition.  I also think that any beer using Kent Goldings as a major hop 
component can benefit from the same, because that hop matches 
beautifully with sulfate.  But if you have very soft water be thrilled. 
 You can make every beer from it, but may need to add a bit of calcium 
to help with enzyme activity.  The people who have a lot more to worry 
about are those who have glaring issues with their water and need to 
find out how best to soften it.

I did a piece in Zymurgy a few years back where I brewed four kinds of 
IPAs with four water profiles.  The favorite of the group was the 
Burtonized batch (addition of lots of sulfate) with an average score of 
41.  Our local brewpub's brewer said it was one of the best IPAs he'd 
ever had.  But the batch made with ultra-soft Chapel Hill water scored a 
39.5 and was prefered by two of the four panelists.  So there is a 
benefit to water treatments, but not nearly as much as they are made out 
to be.

Oh, and I add all minerals to the mash since that's where they do the 
most good.  I add a teaspoon of calcium chloride to all my mashes to 
assist with conversion.  That's it, unless brewing the aforementioned IPA.

Cheers!

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 13:02:54 -0500
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: Hops in Pots

All -

Steve Gray asks about growing hops in pots....

I've had good luck growing hops in 40 gallon trash pails filled with dirt
and potting soil.  While the initial dirt bill is a bit on the expensive
side, the hops adapt well.  I live in Baltimore City, where there is no
dirt, and the only compensation that I made is that I found that you have to
be very vigilant with watering and feeding.  One or two feeds throughout the
spring season is normally sufficient, but you have to water them DAILY, and
I mean daily.

Maybe its just me, but my hop leaves are always on the small side (rarely
getting bigger than 5 inches across.  Many of the in-ground hops that I have
seen from others have base leaves with 8 or 10-inch spreads...  Also, the
height rarely exceeds 10 or 15 feet, so maybe the hops only grow as much as
their containers allow; or if the roots can't get too big, the plant only
grows so much...  Hop flowers, though, seem to be normal size.

If you can afford it, buy trash cans instead of pots.  I noticed that after
1 season my root ball on the hops had expanded to fill the entire trash can,
so you do need some space for roots unless you don't mind having pygmy hop
plants.  Also, drill holes in the bottom of the container and line the first
3 or 4 inches with large gravel to promote drainage...

my .00002

Jay Spies
Charm City Altobrewery
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 10:25:04 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE:  solenoids: Normally CLosed

Bruce Dir ask about: solenoids: Normally CLosed

Here is my dilemma,

"I have two Normally Closed N/C solenoid valves from McMaster-Carr.  I =
read on Nemasket Rivers HERMS site that he is "forcing one valve to be =
Normally Open N/O".  How is this accomplished.  I will be running the =
solenoids from 2 Omega SSR relays and the signal is coming from the = CN9000
Omega PID controller.

"Is there such a thing as a Normally Open  SSR?  This is what it appears =
to have labeled on his schematic on the website.  I would like to save = the
cost of purchasing a N/O solenoid because they are much more = expensive
than the N/C units I have I have."

Yes, NO solenoids are costly, because they're more complicated internally.  

All external SSRs, to my knowledge, are Normally open ("Form A").  But that
has the opposite meaning to what you're thinking about.  A switch or SSR,
when Normally Open, means that current does NOT flow when the control signal
is off.  You're going to need a small Normally closed relay to control one
SSR. This is how he "forces" one to be open.  The other will be controlled
directly by the PID controller.  It may be that your PID controller has
"Form C" (see my explanation below) outputs, in which case you don't need an
extra relay.  Once valve gets wired to the normally closed side, the other
to the normally open side.

To understand whats going on, you need to understand the difference between
direct and reverse acting control. Assuming one valve is going to be used as
a bypass in the herms, and the other to shut off flow in the herms, you have
one controlled element that is direct acting and one that is reverse acting.

Normally, in an electrical heater control, as the temperature rises, the
output decreases.  That's called reverse acting, because the output moves in
the opposite direction of the wild or measured variable (temperature).  This
describes the valve that shuts off the flow to the herms coil.  But The
bypass valve opens longer as temperature rises, which is direct acting.  If
you have only a single output on your controller, in a situation like this
you use control elements that have "opposite" effects.  That is, a normally
open and a normally closed valve.  

What you'll need to do is decide whether your control works in direct or
reverse mode (which solenoid is the "primary" one, from the point of view of
the controller.  This is usually set up in a menu (occasionally called
"heating" or "cooling", but in the Omega, it should be direct or reverse).
Then the other valve will be the opposite type of control, and needs to be
controlled by a standard relay.  Whether it's Form A (NO), Form B (NC) or
Form C ("single pole double throw") depends on your choice of output.  Your
choice is usually governed by how you want the system to fail.  In your
case, a power failure (fuse blows) closes both solenoids...no problem. So it
probably doesn't matter for you. 

Lets say you go for direct acting, and the Bypass is the primary control
element.  As the temp goes up, the bypass turns on.  The control output is
on.  So you need to use either a Form B (mormally closed), or the "B"
contact of a Form C relay (the NC contact) to interrupt power to the herms
coil shutoff.  When the control output is off, the NC contact keeps the
valve on. 

If you went for reverse acting, the controller would control the herms
shutoff valve.  As temp goes up, the valve closes, and the controller output
is off.  But now you want the bypass on, so again you use a Form B contact,
and turn on the SSR for the bypass valve.

Regards,
Mike Sharp



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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 10:42:04 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: solenoids and mash mixers

Greg McLane asked about: solenoids and mash mixers

Two unrelated questions for the HBers in the know:

"Got myself a box-frame solenoid from mcmaster.com (part #70155K48, 120V/
7/8" stroke/ continuous duty, 12VA power rating) for service in my brewery.
Plan to control it with my Johnson Controls A419 120V controler, which
tells me it can handle a full load of 16 amps, among other things.  It also
lists somthing called "pilot duty" and lists a rating of 125VA for the 120V
range.  So I thought I was fine, based on my somewhat limited knowledge of
electronics.  But then a few posts lately have mentioned that inductive
loads, which I think solenoids are, can burn out controllers (the posts
were mostly about PID's, but I'm interpolating here.) Any help is
appreciated."

That solenoid is likely to produce a large inductive kick, and will shorten
the life of the contacts.  Some contacts are designed to handle this
(mechanically and electrically), by such tricks as rocking before opening,
and the like.  I have no idea whether yours will take 16amps of inductive
load, but I would be surprised if it did, unless it's designed for
refrigeration use where it directly starts a motor or larger contactor.  If
you see the words "resistive" anywhere, then the answer is no, it won't work
by itself.  Pilot duty contacts usually will drive relay coils and stuff,
and will take light inductive loads (like the coil of a motor starter).  But
your solenoid is more like a motor load, because of the stroke.   Either use
a motor rated definite purpose contactor, or else use some sort of arc
suppression (usually an MOV and capacitor).  Post the complete electrical
specs, and I can answer more.

By the way, the mash mixer made from the top of a sankey keg sounds like a
good idea...The spear isn't usually fastened on all that well, but maybe it
could be tack welded in place.  If nothing else, weld a stainless shaft on
the sankey head.

Regards,
Mike Sharp



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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:31:29 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Fermenter Recirculation #5 - Bad Idea

At 09:02 AM 3/28/03 -0500, Todd Snyder wrote:
>Hi David,
>
>What would be the difference between recirculating the fermenting beer and 
>mixing the beer?   Could you get the same results using an overhead mixer?
>
>Todd Snyder
>Buffalo, NY

Todd - The whole idea of the experiment was to keep all the yeast in active 
contact with the fermenting beer throughout the fermentation.  As I have a 
cylindro-conical fermenter, I expect that a stirrer consisting of a small 
"fan blade" turning near the apex of the cone would do the job quite 
nicely.  That would mean, however, that either the drive shaft would have 
to enter the top of the fermenter through some sort of seal, or a very 
active fermentation could blow foam out around the drive shaft and make a 
mess.  That problem could be eliminated by leaving sufficient headspace to 
prevent the foam from reaching the top of the fermenter, but in my case, 
that would prevent me from fermenting ten gallons at a time.

If you decide to try using a stirrer, I hope you'll let us all know the 
results.  I had fun conducting this experiment, but it turned out to be 
rather costly.

Dave in Bel Air, Maryland 



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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 16:30:43 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re; Fermenter recirculation #5 - Bad Idea

In HBD 4208, Braam Greyling asks whether I would have been better off using 
a plastic aquarium pump because the plastic wouldn't react with the wort.

The pump I used is made of glass-filled polypropylene, and the rotor shaft 
is made of Titanium.  I don't for a moment believe reaction was the 
problem.  Rather, I believe abrasion was the problem, and I think it must 
have been caused by the yeast, as I never had any wear problem when pumping 
just wort - even boiling wort.

Then in HBD 4209, mystery writer "-S" (is this Steve Alexander using an 
alias? :-) nailed me for sloppy wording when he asked:

  "I've a question Dave.   Why is fermenter recirculation a "Bad Idea" just 
because your pump was a dud ?"

Okay, you caught me.  Keeping all the yeast in active contact with the 
fermenting wort isn't a bad idea; it's the way I went about it that was a 
dud.  And as a matter of fact, I might repeat the experiment.

I have a good buddy who is an accomplished machinist, and he has kindly 
agreed to make me several new rotor shafts out of stainless steel (I just 
don't believe I need Titanium to pump wort/beer).  He will also put a metal 
sleeve in the bore of my damaged pump rotor (we have yet to settle on the 
metal to be used), to see whether it holds up any better than what I 
had.  Then, I'll try it again.

I'll post the results.

Dave in Bel Air, Maryland



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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:34:46 -0800
From: "Ross" <BurningBrite at charter.net>
Subject: Re: Water From Chillers

Hey Steve, welcome to the hobby.  You recently wrote re:

> How much water is wasted using the copper coil wort chillers.
>
> -steve hanlon

Depends on what you mean by "wasted".  I set my kettle on a board on top of
the dryer, disconnect the cold water faucet to the washing machine, connect
my chiller inlet to the cold water faucet, run the chiller out line into the
washing machine, turn it on low (about 1/2 gallon per minute or less), and
capture the fairly warm water for use in washing colored clothing; should be
perfect for diapers too ;) .  I have also run the outlet onto my wife's
flower garden in high summer when they can use the extra water.  Neither of
those would be "wasted".  That said, with my moderately efficient (but not
counterflow) chiller, and depending on the time of year (the water's cooler
in the winter than in the summer) it takes about 7 - 15 gallons to chill a
5.5 gallon batch from boiling to pitching temp.  Hope that helps...

 ...Ross Potter, Richland, WA

"Vuja De" - The Feeling You've Never Been Here



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Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 01:49:43 +0000
From: aa8jzdial at attbi.com
Subject: mixmasher

I read with interest Jack Schmidling's post on his mixmasher (hbd 4203). I have 
always had grief controlling mash temps with a herms system of sorts that I 
have cobbled together. Definately this is my biggest problem with brewing 
equipment. My heater dumps plenty of heat into the mash but I am convinced 
there is large temp gradients throughout the bed. Has any one else tried a 
continous stirring of the mash as described by Jack? I do not doubt his stated 
stellar results but would like a few endorsements before I embark on building a 
stirrer. Hand stirring 20 # is a pita. Digging around my vast pile of junk I 
didn't find a fan blade as Jack recommends but did trip over an old ice auger 
that hasn't been used in many years. (I am gradually switching obsessions.) I 
envision shortening the auger a bit and sliding it into a cylindrical sleeve, 
drawing the mash off the bottom, and slowly spewing it back near the surface of 
the mash. How careful should I be about exposing the mash to air? I will use a 
variable speed motor so I should be able to adjust the throughput to just a 
crawl. The auger is steel and will be sand blasted and probably painted with an 
epoxy type paint to minamize any funk flavors from the bare steel. Some one 
holler if this is a bad idea please.
tnx
rick 
Whitehall Mi. 
on the now ice free shores of Lake Michigan


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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 21:46:18 -0500
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: what really smells...

Steve went on about autolysis and its' aroma, saying,
>> Autolysed yeast do NOT smell like burning
tires. <<

    From Virginia Tech, Food Science and Technology Dept...
"Other degradation products include fatty acids, as well as
 components of the yeast nucleic acids, and vitamins. Yeast
 autolysate may play a role in the character and complexity of wine.
 However, the process of sur lie with heavy lees (particularly in the
absence of stirring or oxygen) can occasionally result in the production
of 'off' flavors and aromas, including H2S and mercaptans. "....
 "Mercaptans are the other principle group of sulfur containing
compounds. They all contain this (-SH) group. Ethyl mercaptan
 possesses_a_burnt_rubber_, skunk or garlic-like character. Methyl
mercaptan has a sensory characteristic of cooked cabbage.
The sensory threshold of both mercaptans is approximately
1 ppb (part per billion)."

Yes this is talking about wine, but vintners also use S. Cerevisiae.
   At a threshold of parts per billion I don't believe it was me 
having cognitive problems identifying autolysis.

NL





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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 07:31:26 +0200 
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at AkzoNobel.com>
Subject: final degree of fermentation Wyeast 3068

Hello, 
The members of our homebrewingclub did an experiment with 3068 Weihenstephan
Weizen yeast. On the Wyeast site I read : apparent attenuation 73-77%
(64-75o F)=(17.8-23.9o C). 
What does this mean, 73-77% % of what? When the wort consists (in theory)
100 % fermentable sugars (glucose, maltose, maltotriose) is this yeast still
fermenting 73-77 % ?? 
We made 80 liters of wort. Mashing 15 minutes at 46 degrees C (115 F) to
make ferulic acid, 15 minutes at 55 degrees C (131 F) proteinic rest, 45
minutes 61 degrees C (142 F) beta-amylase rest and 15 minutes at 71 degrees
C (160 F) for alpha-amylase rest (we used 50 wheatmalt and 50 % barleymalt. 
We divided the boiled wort in 5 portions and added enough Wyeast 3068
(growed from 1 package). 
Fermentations were carried out at roomtemperature. Bottling when
fermentation stopped (no carbondioxyde formed). 
One person bottled at 1.010  , one at 1.012  , two persons bottled at 1.011
and one person bottled at 1.014 (this hydrometer reading is correct). 
Is it possible that the same yeast under (small) different conditions
ferments e.g. 73 OR 77 % ?? 
All bottling was done with 8 grammes of saccharose per liter (1.07 oz per
gallon). Does this mean that the person who bottled at 1.014 will get a very
high pressure in his bottles?? 
I hope some answers for my questions (I also send the questins to Wyeast, 
Greetings from Holland (Europe), Hans Aikema
http://home.wanadoo.nl/hoorns.hopbier/



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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:05:13 -0800
From: Mark Garthwaite <brewmaster at hbd.org>
Subject: 17th Annual Big & Huge Homebrew Competition


The Madison Homebrewers & Tasters Guild is proud to sponsor
the 17th Annual Big & Huge Homebrew Competition!  The Big & Huge is a
competion for high gravity beers.  Entries for Big Ale and Big Lager
categories range from an OG of 1.050 to 1.060.  Huge Ale and Huge
Lager categories are for OG's greater than 1.060.  Ciders, meads, and
sakes above an OG of 1.050 are accepted in a single category.

When:   Saturday May 3, 2003 at 10:00 am - 4:00 pm
Where:  JT Whitney's Pub & Brewery in Madison, WI
Entry Deadline is Wednesday April 30th.
To preregister, deliver or email a copy of the registration form for 
each entry before April 30th to:

Mark Garthwaite, Big & Huge Czar
617 Piper Drive
Madison, WI 53711

or by email (preferred method) to:  brewmaster at mhtg.org

Pre-registered entries will be accepted at the competition site. 
Entries can also be shipped to:

Big & Huge c/o Wine and Hop Shop
1931 Monroe Street
Madison, WI 53711

         The Best of Show beer will be awarded the coveted WOOLY
MAMMOTH plaque.  The HAIRLESS MOUSE award for the Best
of the Cider, Mead, and Sake category returns again this year.  Awards and
prizes will be presented to the top three finishers in each category.

More details and entry forms can be found at: http://www.mhtg.org

Please contact me if you have questions or are interested in
judging/stewarding.  The Big & Huge is a BJCP sanctioned event.

Cheers,

Mark Garthwaite, Big & Huge Czar
(608) 298-9928
brewmaster at mhtg.org


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Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 10:15:54 -0500
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: Sam's Superstore.

I just ran across Sam's Superstore <http://www.samswine.com/>, 
located in Chicago but also selling online. Their beer selection 
is impressive ... so is the wine and liquor selection.

Any HBD'rs do online business with them? What about Chicagoans? I 
thought there were all sorts of legal problems with interstate 
shipping of beer/wine liquor. Are these guys legit?

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
http://hbd.org/ensmingr



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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 10:17:56 -0600
From: "Mark Kellums" <infidel at springnet1.com>
Subject: Hops in Pots

In HBD 4208, Steven Gray asks:

>  Has anyone had any luck growing them in big pots, say 5
>to 10 gallons and leaving them there?
>

Stencil replies:

Yeah;  but firstly, think more in the line of 40-50 gallons.  The
large plastic planters used for patio shrubs and the like work well,
as would (I guess) oak half-barrels.

Me:

I really think 40-50 gallons is overkill.  I've grown some very successful
hop plants in 5 gallon buckets above ground. The hops were twined up ten
feet to a 9 gauge wire overhead. Of course in the heat of the summer you may
have to water twice a day with this arrangement. I've also used whiskey
barrels with good success but they were more or less permanently placed
whereas the buckets could be moved easily for mowing.

Stencil says:

Remember that you're not going to have any yield to speak of until the
third season or so.

Me:

I've also found this not to be the case. I've gotten very good yields from
first year plants depending on the variety and how well they are taken care
of. Cascade, Eroica, Galena, Chinook and other vigorous varieties will give
you a decent batch of hops depending on the growing conditions.

Stencil writes:

Another matter is overwintering.  My pots are sunk into the "soil"
(solid clay - this is Berkshire County, in Taxachusetts) adjacent to
the foundation wall and there is a deck built over them, about 18" off
the surface.

Me:

I haven't found this to be a problem either. My current three year old
potted hops are in 8 gallon plastic pots on the west side of the pergola.
The winters here in central Illinois can be pretty frigid.

You may have to dump the whole pot every few years to remove excess roots
and or rhizomes but I haven't yet.

Hope this helps.

Mark Kellums
Decatur Il.



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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:35:12 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Buffered systems

Brewsters,

John Palmer says:

" The bicarbonate is not the buffering agent."

Sorry to disagree but, bicarbonate/carbonate is part of the buffering system,
just as it is in your swimming pool.  As long as both carbonate and
bicarbonate exist at a given pH, it acts as a buffer system. Carbonate is a
weak acid just as are the organic acids.  They may buffer in a different pH
region due to the different dissociation constants.

Better analogies might be pH is sort of like temperature ( in that it is an
intensity measure) and acidity is sort of like heat (in that it is quantity)
 .Steel and Aluminum may have the same temperature ( aka pH) but have different
heat contents ( aka acidity) and resist temperature change (aka pH)
differently with the same amount of heat (aka acidity) . i.e buffered. In this
case due to different heat capacities ( buffering capacities)

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley



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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 15:13:01 -0700
From: "William Plotner" <mountanman458 at netzero.net>
Subject: Brewers Workshop 4.0



Hi,
Is anyone out there using Brewers Workshop 4.0?

I just built a new computer, with 40Gig hard drive and 3/4 gig memory. When
I try to install Brewers, I get a "Insufficient Memory or Hard Drive Space"
error. Anyone with any experience or recommendations?

Tom, if you are out there reading this, e-mail me.

Thanks in advance of any help.

Beerbill
mountanman457 at juno.com



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---