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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Salt and witches (TOLLEY Matthew)
  Re: Fermenter recirculation #5 - Bad Idea (Jonathan Royce)
  Re: Water From Chillers (Jonathan Royce)
  Erdinger Dunkel Weiss (Leo Vitt)
  % of What (AJ)
  Re: mixmasher (stencil)
  RE: Bavarian wheat yeast CL930 (bobbrews\) Johnson" <robert at bobbrews.com>
  Hops drainage (beerbuddy)
  water chemistry and carbonate as an acid??! (Alan Meeker)
  RE: Yeast Source needed ("Mike Sharp")
  Tales of She Who Must Be Brewed For ("Frank Tutzauer")
  priming lambics ("Don Van")
  re: Autolysis - Treacle ("-S")
  Great Lakes Region - NHC Judge & Steward Registration (Joe Preiser)
  Re: Fdtermenter recirculation #5 - Bad Idea (David Towson)
  shipping alcohol, was Sam's Superstore. (Rama Roberts)
  Great Canadian Homebrew Conference and Competition ("Kevin Tighe")


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Date:  Wed, 2 Apr 2003 16:21:28 +1000 
From: TOLLEY Matthew <matthew.tolley at atsic.gov.au>
Subject: Salt and witches

>Any ideas about the effect of a pinch of NaCl 
>added to the kettle with the FWH hops?    

"The Curiosities of Ale and Beer" (Bickerdyke, London, 1889) describes a
Scotch ale brewer throwing a handful of salt on top of the mash to keep
witches away. ;)

Cheers
 ....Matt...
Canberra, Australia
http://canberrabrewers.org




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Date: Wed,  2 Apr 2003 04:36:16 -0800
From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: Re: Fermenter recirculation #5 - Bad Idea

David wrote:

"I don't for a moment believe reaction was the problem.  Rather,
I believe abrasion was the problem, and I think it must have been
caused by the yeast, as I never had any wear problem when pumping
just wort - even boiling wort."

To which I would say (respectfully)--no way. I cannot for a second
believe that yeast or any other living cell (E. Coli, CHO cells, etc.)
could cause abrasion on a titanium shaft. Yeast, while hardy creatures,
are not hard particles and do not have an ability to score hard metals.
In fact, a common worry for pharmaceutical companies is cell lysis
caused by pump & valve shear. (i.e. The pump is a lot harder than 
the cells.)

However, I wonder if the problem could have been some precipitated salt,
such as a calcium or magnesium precipitate. Do you normally add minerals
to the brew water?

Regardless of the particulate, my guess is you noticed the scoring 
due to time. You may have never had any problems pumping just wort, 
but my guess is that you've never continuously pumped wort for a week 
with that pump either. (Unless your brew sessions take an inordinately 
long amount of time ;-) )

Anyway, just my 2 cents. 

Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Wed,  2 Apr 2003 04:39:28 -0800
From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: Re: Water From Chillers

Ross Potter related some uses for chiller outflow, including filling the
washing machine and watering plants.

I'll add another to the list: I take the hot outflow from my immersion
chiller and fill a bucket or two with hot water, which I then use later
for cleaning my kettle, mashtun and other equipment that has been in
contact with the wort. In that way, I not only recover the water, but
some of the heat as well.

Happy brewing,

Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 07:23:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Erdinger Dunkel Weiss



Michael asked about imitating Erdinger Dunkel Weiss:

>Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 06:13:30 -0800 (PST)
>From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Erdinger Dunkel Weiss

>I tasted this the other night, and immediately fell in
>love.  

>What I'm looking for is info about how to approximate
>the wonderful flavors of this brew.  

>In other words, any idea about the percent of wheat
>malt, the other base malts to use, what percentage of
>crystal, chocolate, etc?

I have made some Weizen bocks, which in my mind are stronger
versions of dunkel weizen.  
I use (approximately)
dark wheat malt - 60%
munich malt     - 30%
crystal malt    - 10%

Dark wheat is available from Weyerman's malting.  I first got
it from St Pats, and later special ordered it.   I have also 
used crystal wheat malt in a version.  The cystal wheat was
also Weyerman's from st pats.

Yest - I used weizen yeast - either Wyeast Weinstephan or 
white labs wlp300.


      


=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE



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Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 16:22:10 +0000
From: AJ <ajd at zai.com>
Subject: % of What

When the attenuation of a yeast is expressed as a percentage it refers 
to the percentage of the wort solids that are expected to be converted 
to CO2 and alcohol. Thus a yeast that attenuates 70% would leave 30%  
behind. A 10P wort would ferment down to 3P. Note that we usually speak 
of apparent attenuation as most homebrewers (and many craft brewers) do 
not concern themselves with the true extract (solids content of the 
fully fermented beer determined by specific gravity measurement after 
the alcohol has been removed). Thus the 3P value given above would be 
the apparent extract of the beer in most cases which is the specific 
gravity of the beer (with alcohol) converted to Plato by the usual 
formula. Most home brewers (on my side of the pond, at least) prefer to 
use specific gravity points. Thus the 10 P wort referred to above would 
be thought of as having ~ 40 SG points (SG ~ 1.040). An apparent 
attenuation of 70% would leave 12 points so the expected SG would be 1.012.

A.J.



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Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 11:36:04 -0500
From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: mixmasher

In Homebrew Digest #4210 (April 02, 2003), 
rick <aa8jzdial at attbi.com> wrote:

> [ ... ] I am convinced 
>there is large temp gradients throughout the bed. Has any one else tried a 
>continous stirring of the mash as described by Jack? 

Yeah, and I'm convinced it's beneficial: less likelihood of scorching,
faster stabilization after adding heat, more confidence that you're
reading the temperature of the whole mash.  

> I envision [...] drawing the mash off the bottom, and 
>slowly spewing it back near the surface of the mash. How 
>careful should I be about exposing the mash to air? I will use a 
>variable speed motor so I should be able to adjust the throughput to just a 
>crawl. 

If the tun is covered, with holes only for the shaft and the
temperature probe(s), you probably will be introducing a lot less air
than you would by hand-stirring.   

>The auger is steel and will be sand blasted and 
>probably painted with an epoxy type paint 

Rather than sacrifice a functional auger tip, consider the
epoxied-steel impellers sold for mixing drywall compound.  
I use wood, both for shaft and impeller, simply because that prototype
worked well enough that I never felt the need to refine it.

The only negative I have to report is that the current tends to
deposit banks of fines around the manifold (aluminum insect screen
wrapped around slotted PVC) and so there is a (very small) risk of
clogging.

stencil sends




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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 08:36:01 -0800
From: "Robert \(bobbrews\) Johnson" <robert at bobbrews.com>
Subject: RE: Bavarian wheat yeast CL930

Doug the CL-390 is still available at this time from me. I purchased all of
the inventory from Brewer's Resource. I have 10 slants of that variety in
stock. I am reachable at the Brewer's Resource toll-free number of
1-800-827-3983. We are also taking over their websites as well and hope to
have it back by Mid April

Robert (bobbrews) Johnson
Brewer's Rendezvous
www.bobbrews.com
Secure Ordering Online

>   Yeast Source needed ("Doug A Moller")
> Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 06:52:59 -0600
> From: "Doug A Moller" <damoller at intergate.com>
> Subject: Yeast Source needed
>
> Hi,
> I am looking for a Bavarian wheat yeast CL930 I used to get it from
Brewers
> Resource. Does anyone know how to get some. Are there any other yeast
> sources other than the 2 in all the shops?
>
> Doug



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Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 17:03:37 +0000
From: beerbuddy at attbi.com
Subject: Hops drainage

Well, I finally did it. We bought a house. I'll get to set up a real brewery - 
albeit in a corner of the utility room because we have no garage. I'm looking 
forward to being able to plant my own hops too, we've got a pretty good sized 
lot. My question though, is how much drainage do hops really need? The house is 
about a hundred feet from the Snoqualmie River in North Bend, WA, and we are in 
a flood plain. The ground is frequently wet, and I don't think it drains well.

On the plus side, one of the local parks is an historical hop farm - a very 
good sign. I was just curious if anyone had experience with saturated land, and 
whether hops will grow well there. Also, if I plant fairly late in the summer, 
say toward the end of July - will the plants have enough time to get 
established to produce next season? We get frost around here starting about mid 
november, and nights tend to be just below freezing until about the end of 
February. 

Thanks for any advice!

Timothy
beerbuddy at attbi.com 


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Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 12:09:37 -0500
From: Alan Meeker <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: water chemistry and carbonate as an acid??!

I didn't catch what got this all started but there have been some
interesting water chemistry posts of late.

Dave Burley commented on a post by John Palmer:

"Sorry to disagree but, bicarbonate/carbonate is part of the buffering
system,
just as it is in your swimming pool.  As long as both carbonate and
bicarbonate exist at a given pH, it acts as a buffer system. Carbonate is a
weak acid just as are the organic acids.  They may buffer in a different pH
region due to the different dissociation constants."

Um, sorry, but there's no way that carbonate can be considered an acid, weak
or any other kind. Aside from the fact that it has a pKa greater than 10, it
doesn't even have any protons to donate, so by definition it cannot be an
acid. True, the only buffering you'd get from a bicarbonate/carbonate system
would be  when both species are present, but this would only happen in a pH
range of approx. 9 - 10. Hardly anything we should be encountering in our
everyday brewing practices!

 -Alan

Alan Meeker, Ph.D.
Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions
Department of Urology
Marburg Building, Room 113
600 N. Wolfe Street
Baltimore, MD 21287-2101

ph (410) 614-4974 or (410) 614-5686
fax (410) 502-9817





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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 09:31:43 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Yeast Source needed


Doug A Moller asks for CL930...

These guys have it, but they mainly service Brewpubs and microbreweries, so
their quantities are pretty large. The smallest pitchable quantity they sell
is for a 31 gallon batch.  But they sell plates of all their strains for
$10. 

http://www.brewingscience.com/

Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:30:33 -0500
From: "Frank Tutzauer" <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Tales of She Who Must Be Brewed For

SWMBO is a beer snob, and she's gotten particularly bad in the last
few years.  We'll go to a restaurant, and when we ask for the beer
selection the waitress often responds, "We have everything."
SWMBO likes good beer, but she delights in the game, too.

"I'll have a Delirium Tremens?"
"A what?"
"Never mind.  How about a Chimay Blue?"
"No."
"Red, Gold, White?"
"Sorry."
"Then I want a Victory Hop Devil."

SWMBO will keep naming beers until, like a cat tired of tormenting
the mouse, she says, "Just give me a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale," at which
point the exasperated waitress cries, "We only have *regular* beer."

The cat pounces.  SWMBO looks off defiantly, puts her nose in the air, and
says, in a measured, icy tone, "I'll...just...have...a...Coke...."

The following story is true.

12:30 a.m.  Just coming home from having enjoyed some  microbrews.
SWMBO says, "I'm in the mood for something Belgian."

Not me.  I'm tired as hell, I have to get up in the morning, and frankly
all I want to do is go to sleep.  But years of experience have taught me
not to voice such thoughts.  Instead, the Husband Defense System kicks in,
and I smartly respond, "Um...."

"Let's crack open a couple of Duvels."
"Can't.  We drank them."
"What about all the Belgian beers we bought at Premier?"
"Drank those too."
"Ok, forget Belgian.  Let's just drink homebrew.  What have you got on
tap?"

It's at this point my throat begins to tighten.  You must understand that
SWMBO has a razor sharp palate.  If a beer has been brewed with even a
single grain of roasted barley, she'll take a swig, scowl in disgust, and
say, "Ugh, tastes like coffee."  And SWMBO absolutely HATES coffee.  So
imagine my terror when, because circumstances have led to a homebrew
shortage at home, all I have to offer her is...

"Stout."

She sighs dejectedly.  "Then let's just have a Sierra Nevada."

I open the beer fridge.  It is empty except for, in the cruelest of ironies,
a 12-pack of Coke.

But, unlike with the waitress, SWMBO is not toying with me.  She really
does want some beer.  She spies a carboy of Belgian Strong Golden Ale
that I've got in secondary.  That's right, I said Belgian.  And SWMBO knows
it.

"How about some of that," she says, gesturing to the carboy.
"It's not done.  I needs to drop a couple gravity points."
"Pour some off."
"But it's in secondary.  It's hot, it's flat, it's not done."
"Pour...some...off..."

I grab a spray bottle of Star San, spritz a turkey baster, wait a few
minutes,
draw off a sample, and squirt it in a glass.

"More."

I draw off another sample.

"More!"  She has me fill a pint glass about 3/4 full, then she takes it
into the kitchen and drops in a single ice cube.  After rooting about in
the basement for a bit, she comes upstairs with a cheap bottle of champagne
that we've had since New Year's.  She pours a finger of the champagne into
the beer to "carbonate" it.  Then she puts some tunes on the CD player,
tastes
the beer, decides it's chilled enough, discards the ice cube, sits down on
the couch...and drinks the beer!

Let me reiterate, so that you get the full import:  I give her HOT, FLAT
beer.  She chills it with an ICE CUBE, and uses CHAMPAGNE to
CARBONATE it!!

To be honest, I was surprised at how well the champagne trick worked,
definitely providing a little fizz, and even raising a head.  The champagne
was fairly neutral, so there wasn't a big flavor impact, though it did add a
grape-flavored note that seemed to fit.

SWMBO has a T-shirt that says she judges a man by the quality of the beer
he drinks.  You can judge SWMBO not only by the quality of the beer she
drinks, but by the determination with which she pursues it.

 --frank in Buffalo



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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:30:56 -0800
From: "Don Van" <dvanv at earthlink.net>
Subject: priming lambics

Anyone out there have experience with bottling lambics?  I have been kegging

for years and never looked back, that is until now.  I seem to have

developed a taste for lambics and it just doesn't seem right to keg such a

beer.  My question is how much priming sugar would be good for  the "methode

champenoise".  I am planning to use champagne bottles with plastic stoppers,

wire, etc.



Just a guess from past bottling experiences, about a cup of corn sugar.  ??

Perhaps I should consider kraesening.



Anyone with experience in this area?



Don Van Valkenburg





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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:57:39 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Autolysis - Treacle

Antony Hayes notes ...

>The flavour descriptor that I have found useful for autolysis is meaty or
>brothy (like a cup of Bovril - do you get Bovril in the US).

We don't get Bovril in the US and we don't even get treacle by that name,
but your description is excellent.

'Yeast autolysate' is used as a flavoring agent in many dried soup-broths.
If anyone wants firsthand experience, place a slurry (and a lot of salt) in
a double boiler for a few hours.    It is not an unattractive '(burning)
rubber' smell at all.   It smells like meat broth, but the flavor (if you
are using brewing yeast) can be unacceptably bitter.

>I have noticed that those porters where I add a bit too much treacle tend
to
>have a similar smell, and are often described as exhibiting autolysis
>aromas. Is this simply the smell of fermented treacle, or does treacle
>encourage autolysis?

Treacle is a mix of molasses (the thickened remains from the extraction of
table sugar from cane), invert sugar and corn syrup.   Treacle adds little
to the wort besides carbohydrates & molasses flavor so adding much is likely
to make a wort deficient in amino acids and so maybe higher in fusels.
This *could* lead to autolysis.    Adding much sugar to wort causes all sort
of odd effects that defy lucid explanation.   I've found thru costly
experience that most US molasses' have no place in beer.   Many are
sulphured and many others have high iron content which lends a nasty flavor
note.   Dark brown sugar and other forms of brown sugar appear superior.
UK treacle is available from some HB and speciality shops.  Many British
styles, esp well attenuated ales deserve a touch of brown sugar or treacle
but keep the sugar-adjunct contributions below 10% of the SG - IMO.

FYI dried bread yeasts are often grown on highly aerated dilute molasses
media, which explains the residual molasses aroma in these.

 -S




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Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 17:03:50 -0600
From: Joe Preiser <jpreiser at attbi.com>
Subject: Great Lakes Region - NHC Judge & Steward Registration


Great Lakes - NHC 1st Round Call for Judges & Stewards


Judging for the Great Lakes region (MI, IL, WI, IN) of the NHC 1st Round 
will be held at Rock Bottom-Chicago (1 W Grand Ave., Chicago).  Given 
the large number of entries expected, judging sessions are scheduled for 
Friday evening, all day Saturday, and Sunday morning, April 25-27, with 
the Friday and Sunday sessions being used only if required.

Sessions will begin at 6:30PM on Friday, 9:00AM on Saturday, and 10:00AM 
on Sunday.  Please plan to arrive 30 minutes early for sign-in and 
steward assignments.

A breakfast of bagels, coffee, and juice, and a delicious lunch prepared 
by Rock Bottom's award winning chef, Chip Fegert, along with beers 
crafted by award winning brewer, Pete Crowley, will be provided Saturday.

As a special treat, Ray Daniels, organizer of the Chicago Real Ale 
Festival and last fall's Planet Buzz mead festival, has graciously 
donated a selection of 12-15 commercial meads, including Planet Buzz 
award winners, for our tasting.  Sampling will commence Saturday once 
judging wraps up for the day.

Interested judges and stewards can register online at 
http://www.chibeer.org/NHC/ or can contact Judging Coordinator, Joe 
Preiser (joe at chibeer.org, 630-285-7688).



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Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 18:08:45 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Fdtermenter recirculation #5 - Bad Idea

A few digests ago, I posted the latest results from my experiment with pump 
recirculation of fermenting wort to keep all the yeast in suspension, and 
opined that I thought the yeast had been responsible for serious erosion of 
the interior of my pump.  That drew several welcome comments, to which I 
responded in #4210.

Then, Jonathan Royce responded with great doubt that the yeast could have 
been the culprit due to its fragility.  I appreciate the skepticism, as I 
too have always thought of yeast as being rather delicate.  However, I am 
at a loss to come up with any other explanation.  The rotor shaft that was 
damaged had not been used previously, and I am not aware of any deviation 
from my usual brewing practice except for the pumping.  Furthermore, the 
damage to the rotor shaft was not minor: it was chewed up very badly.  This 
was with one brew!  So whatever was responsible did a "real number" on my pump.

Jonathan went on to "...wonder if the problem could have been some 
precipitated salt, such as a calcium or magnesium precipitate. Do you 
normally add minerals to the brew water?"  I do not add anything to my 
water except citric acid to adjust the pH.  The pH is usually around 8, and 
I push it down to 5.2 - 5.4 with the acid.  (I have a decent Hanna pH meter.)

I'd really like to know what was going on here, and  I'm open to a good 
explanation that makes sense to me.  But something in the fermenting liquid 
had abrasive qualities, and chewed the heck out of my pump.

Dave in Bel Air, Maryland



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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 16:34:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at eng.sun.com>
Subject: shipping alcohol, was Sam's Superstore.

Peter A. Ensminger asks if there are problems with Sam's Superstore
shipping beer. I don't know about Sam's, but have had good experience with
Beverages and More (bevmo.com), no affiliation, who appear to ship to most
if not all states, including Illinois, and have a decent selection of
beer/wine/spirits.

- --rama






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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:16:32 -0500
From: "Kevin Tighe" <kevin.tighe at sympatico.ca>
Subject: Great Canadian Homebrew Conference and Competition

The Canadian Amateur Brewers Association presents the Great Canadian
Homebrew Conference and Competition. The conference will be on Sat May 3rd
at the Musket Tavern in Etobicoke, just west of Toronto. There will also be
a "Bring a keg" event on the Friday night.

Entry deadline for competition is April 18th, all classes are accepted. If
you would be interested in judging for this event on April 26th contact
homebrewer at sympatico.ca.

For more information, directions, entry and reservation forms see the CABA
website at www.homebrewers.ca

Kevin Tighe



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