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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Sam's/Shipping Beer/Georgia Call to Action (Ted Hull)
  My daughter likes it, but... ("Doug Moyer")
  BMW motorcycle keg rack (K.M.)" <kmuell18 at visteon.com>
  HERMS question (J & B Gallihue)
  re: autolysis smells/stink ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Re: Partial Mash for a CAP (Jeff Renner)
  Attenuatoin/Buffering nits ("A.J. deLange")
  Fermentation agitation ("Dave Burley")
  carbonates cont'd (Alan Meeker)
  Sparging Whoes (Caryl Hornberger Slone)
  apricot beer (Marc Sedam)
  1st batch ("Jay Spies")
  Quick Disconnects ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  unmalted wheat & Sanke coupling (Ben Rodman)
  Now accepting HOPS BOPS 2003 entries (Joseph Uknalis)
  RE: And you think Ferm Recirc is a bad idea?? ("Mike Sharp")
  Hefeweizen Question ("Dave Larsen")
  Beer in Kansas City (Brian Dube)
  Hamm's tapper keg (scott thompson)


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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 04:27:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Ted Hull <theartfuldudger at yahoo.com>
Subject: Sam's/Shipping Beer/Georgia Call to Action

A side note on the issue of shipping beer from Sam's
in Chicago: if you want to ship to a state (like GA)
that doesn't allow alcohol shipments to residents,
forget it. I tried when I was up there for the Real
Ale Festival in March. Actually, I even carried my own
Fedex label with my account on it. They refused to let
me leave the packed box there to get picked up, even
though it was addressed to me and from me.
Fortunately, there are two box shops nearby, one on
the other side of North and another on Armitage near
the L stop. My understanding is that GA hit Sam's with
a big fine, like in the $50k range, for shipping
there.

If you're in GA and haven't been following the action,
check out www(dot)beerinfo(dot)com/worldclassbeer. 
House Bill 645, which will raise the beer alcohol
limit from 6 to 14 percent, will most likely come up
for a vote next Tuesday (4/8/03).  It's key to contact
your state representative by Monday to voice your
support (esp. if you're outside I-285 in Atlanta (that
includes the rest of the state).

Keep your fingers crossed.

Ted Hull
Atlanta, Georgia



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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 07:40:07 -0500
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: My daughter likes it, but...

Beer Chemists,
    I recently had a new well drilled. I don't know anything about the
makeup, but I can tell that the water is high in iron. (Strong iron aroma.)
It also has a bit of a dusty aroma and it isn't very clear. A full tub of
water is tinged brown.
    The past two days, I tried brewing with it (running all brew water
through an undersink filter). We'll see how it affects the flavor....
    One of the odd things that I noticed was when using PBW. Upon mixing it
with the water, the combination turned pink! Any idea what it is about my
water that is causing this? The iron? Is the PBW's effectiveness reduced by
this reaction? If so, how much? (I know, "It depends...")

Brew on!

Doug Moyer
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'"
     ~ Dave Barry

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us
 with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
     ~ Galileo Galilei




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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 07:57:36 -0500 
From: "Mueller, Kevin (K.M.)" <kmuell18 at visteon.com>
Subject: BMW motorcycle keg rack

Thought some of you might be interested in seeing
this...http://www.infernalmachineshop.com/Keg_Rack_1.htm.

It shows the modification of a BMW motorcycle to hold 2 corney kegs!

Kevin
Canton, MI



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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 08:21:30 -0500
From: J & B Gallihue <jgallihue at comcast.net>
Subject: HERMS question

I have been working on a brewery and I have to finish before my wife notices
it!!!
I will have one burner w/ two cooler set up.  The top cooler, and highest of
all is the mashtun.  Below it a cooler hot liquor tank.  To the right of
sparge water is boilding pot w/ pump below all.

Question: If I locate a HERMS exchange coil in the liquor tank and fill the
tank w/ 185 - 190 deg. F water and pump wort through the coil I should not
have any problem running through various steps will I.  Is not having bottom
heat a serious flaw or reasonable compromise?

Thanks,
Joel Gallihue
Columbia, MD



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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 09:13:47 -0500
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: re: autolysis smells/stink

Steve you  assert, if anything autolysis smells of hydrogen sulphide;
then cite Dr Bisson as saying, "..not all that common for substantial
sulfur aromas to appear in autolysis..." Hydrogen sulphide is certainly
a "substantial sulfur aroma" so it doesn't even follow.

>> - cook up a yeast slurry then burn a bit of rubber and
compare - there is no comparison.<<

Cooking a slurry and letting one decompose on its' own certainly
have no comparison, what's your point?
 Flavor descriptions are fleeting at best, many people refer to the
autolysis in champagne as "toasty", I've never smelled "toast"
in champagne.
 
>>(cabbage is  like dimethylsulphide).   Some claim that these two smell
like
rubber.  I find that an acceptable but not very good aroma description.<<

If that is an "acceptable but not very good description" then my original
comment about the distinctive burnt rubber smell of autolysis is
"acceptable."
  DMS has been described with many different aromas, cabbage is one,
celery is another, and the familiar "canned corn" description. One compound
with
varying interpretations of aroma. I think it's a matter of concentration.
The thiols of a
dead skunk can become more garlic-like in high level exposure.
  Perhaps the only aroma released at the initial stages of autolysis is
hydrogen sulphide, but  what sort of esterification happens as the
surviving
yeasts metabolise autolysates. That could produce 'who knows'
how many interesting new aromas.

NL


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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:14:00 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Partial Mash for a CAP

William Menzl <william.m.menzl at dowcorning.com> writes from just up 
the road in Midland, Michigan

>A brewing friend of mine who currently does extract (with steeping)
>brewing only would like to attempt a CAP but doesn't want to
>jump into all-grain just yet.  We are thinking about trying
>a partial mash recipe but I am unsure of the amount of
>6-row pale malt necessary to convert the flaked maize.  Any
>ideas or suggestions?  Would the amount be much different
>if he uses 2-row pale malt?

First, I'll have to tell you that I've never actually done a partial 
mash with flakes (I haven't done any partial mash in more than 20 
years, for that matter), but I've advised brewers who have reported 
success with equal amounts of malt and flakes.

The more malt the better for ease of lautering, but the enzymes in 
both 2-row (110-130 Lintner) and 6-row (130-150 Lintner) will convert 
probably twice their weight in unmalted adjuncts.  Six-row has 
slightly more husk, so theoretically that also would make for easier 
lautering.  Rice hulls would also aid, but I think that if you have 
room for more bulk, I'd make it malt, not inert rice hulls.

Good luck.

Jeff


- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:40:51 +0000
From: "A.J. deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Attenuatoin/Buffering nits

For Hans: In rereading what I wrote I see how my words could have been 
ambiguous. I apologize for the confusion. When calculating extract we 
measure the specific gravity of the wort and whatever we measure above 0 
Plato or 1.000 specific gravity is called the "original gravity". It 
doesn't matter what the material contributing to the specific gravity 
reading is. In other words, non fermentable sugars, fermentable sugars, 
dissolved minerals, protein, hops resins etc all contribute to the 
reading and all are considered part of the original extract. It's clear 
that this is the only practical way to do this.

Similarly, after the beer is fermented there is no practical means of 
separating the effects of components so that whatever the contributors 
to (unfermentable sugars, proteins, minerals, hops acids) or detractors 
from (alcohol in the case of apparent extract) may be it is simply the 
specific gravity reading that is considered to be the true (if alcohol 
is removed) or apparent (if alcohol has not been removed) extract. Thus 
it should be clear that attenuation depends not only on the yeast but on 
the nature of the wort it is fermenting. Consider two 10P worts and 
assume that one has 90 grams/kg fermentable sugars, 9g/kg non 
fermentable sugars and 1 g/kg other non fermentable stuff. A yeast 
strain which consumes all the fermentable sugars would remove the 90 
grams leaving behind the 10 grams of non fermentables for a true extract 
of 10g/kg or a 1P wort so that the attenuation is, in this case 90% (the 
calculation is a little more complicated than this but not much. OTOH a 
wort with 80 grams fermentable sugar, 20 grams non fermentable sugar and 
1 g (all per kg of wort) would yield, to this same strain, 80% true 
attenuation. This is, in part, why yeast attenuations are always 
specified as a range of numbers.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Buffering debaters: I think you both understand exactly what is going on 
but are hung up on minor errors - actually typos probably. Dave did say 
that carbonate was a weak acid when he clearly meant bicarbonate. OTOH 
Alan assigned a pK to carbonate when he was clearly talking about 
bicarbonate. For the record: Carbonic acid is a weak acid with two 
protons to give and thus two pKs (approximately 6.5 for the first and 
about 10.5 for the second). After losing the first, we have bicarbonate 
ion which is a weak acid (it has one proton to give with a pK of about 
10.5). It is also a base as it can take up a proton (Lowry-Bronsted 
definition of base). Carbonate ion is not an acid as it has no protons 
to yeild (Lowry-Bronsted definition of acid). It is, rather, dibasic as 
it can take up two protons.

A.J.



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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 09:58:44 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Fermentation agitation

Brewsters,

Fred Scheer suggest we not make the same mistake as Schlitz and we not do a
fermentation recirculation.

Actually, I remember when that change was made and it was Baaad, I didn't know
why at the time..  But I don't think the problem was due to fermentation
agitation but to inventory control.  The enthusiastic capitalization of a new
and supposedly cheaper - ("Let's make it even bigger and cheaper") process at
Schlitz was the likely cause.  Do I recall correctly that we had a lady brewer
who was at Schlitz at the time and who commented here on that problem?  As I
recall the problem was the process was so efficient, they backed up their
production train and the beer had to sit a long time in these silos which
slowed sales due to poor taste and backed up the production which slowed
sales - etc..  Not good for a beer with no substance to age before bottling.
That was the problem, not the agitation.

The Brits solved this problem of slow fermentation towards the end a couple of
centuries ago, with overly flocculent yeasts, by employing in situ agitation.
They used a flocculent yeast for flavor and a non-flocculent yeast to provide
agitation during fermentation to finish up the last bits of sugar and keep the
flocculent yeast in suspension.  Based on this expereince I suspect agitation
during fermentation is not  a bad idea. You could always follow it with
Clinitest to evaluate the process characteristics.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley






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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:58:47 -0500
From: Alan Meeker <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: carbonates cont'd

Dave Burley writes:
- --------------
"Alan,

Carbonic acid is an acid and has the pKa ( ~ 5 as I recall) to prove it!
Actually both ( carbonate and bicarbonate)  species are present in your
swimming pool at around 7 or less.  If they don't participate, then why are
we
worried about them in water treatment for beer?"
- --------------

True, carbonic acid is certainly an acid. However, my post was in response
to your earlier comment that "carbonate is a weak acid," perhaps this was a
typo on your part?

Again, since carbonate has a pKa of something like 10.2, there should be
very little present in typical brewing water. At pH 7 you are over 3 orders
of magnitude higher in H+ concentration, so the vast majority of carbonate
is at least singly protonated to form bicarbonate. Thus, it is bicarbonate
that should be the predominate species.

 -Alan




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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 10:34:04 -0500
From: Caryl Hornberger Slone <chornberger10 at comcast.net>
Subject: Sparging Whoes

I have a heck of a time with stuck sparges and here's why (i think):

1) I typically use 70% wheat
2) 20# of grain for a 10 gallon batch in my 10 gallon gott-like cooler gives
a deep grainbed (maybe 12-18"?)
3) Inspecting the grainbed after sparging(argh!) shows 1-2" of light brown
"smudgegunk" on top of the grainbed and the grainbed itself it extremely
solid.
4) I'm bad with limiting aeration during the mash (I do a decoction mash
which has a lot of splashing).

Anyone have any ideas on how I can get the sweet wort flowing?

Thanks,
Caryl Hornberger Slone



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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 10:51:40 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: apricot beer

Phil Wilcox asks about brewing an apricot rye beer.

I recently threw together an Apricot ESB, which contained one pound of 
rye in a 10 gallon batch.  The finished product was quite tasty, which I 
attributed to the combination of crystal malt (40L), Kent Goldings hops, 
and the apricots.

To get that wonderful apricot flavor, prime your keg with apricot juice. 
 You will have to filter the juice first...best to do it through a fine 
mesh screen versus a coffee filter (too easily plugged).  I made the 
mistake of priming with the puree and got thick and cloudy beer for 
about half the keg.

I primed with two quarts of juice per keg.  The apricot flavor is sublime.

 -Marc

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:30:22 -0500
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: 1st batch

Nick Nik comments on his first batch of beer and the hobby in general....

Welcome to the hobby my man...   Let it grow on you and you'll find yourself
with a house full of gadgets and a fridge full of beer before you can blink
an eye...  And keep reading the HBD.

Jay Spies
Charm City Altobrewery
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:05:43 -0800
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: Quick Disconnects

Hi,
  I'm thinking of upgrading to SnapFlex QDs, but choked at the price.  I
saw on there are both Polypropylene and Polysulfone.  I've seen the
Polysulfone on sale at homebrew websites.  The Polypropylene have almost
the same specs for pressure & temp.  Are these food grade too?

Thanks,
Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA
[1978.7, 275.3] Apparent Rennerian


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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:27:26 -0700 (GMT)
From: Ben Rodman <brew-cat at earthlink.net>
Subject: unmalted wheat & Sanke coupling

Greetings group,
     A couple questions for the gang. I've been given a 
bucket of unmalted red winter wheat (that was intended for
baking) by a neighbor. I'd hate to see it go to waste 
(it's about thirty or forty pounds) by not brewing a wit with 
it. Since I haven't used unmalted wheat before (I assume it 
has little/no enzymes of its own), the question is
how much enzymatic power does it need added to the mash? How 
much enzymatic malt should I use (proportionally) for a wit?
     The second question is has anyone found a device with
which homebrewers can remove and reinstall Sanke valves easily?
Jeff's helpful posts have given me the bug to use Sankes for 
kegging but some folks who've tried home removal have 
described the process to me as a bigger PITA than is 
worth while. Is a tool available for homebrewers, or am
I being a wussy and should just get in there with pliers 
and good medical insurance?

Thanks for any advice!



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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 15:42:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Joseph Uknalis <birman at netaxs.com>
Subject: Now accepting HOPS BOPS 2003 entries 


Drop off locations are now accepting entries for the Best of Philly &
Suburbs 2003 competition, to be held on 4/19/03

May the best beers win (& may I get to judge at least one of em!)

for details see:

http://www.hopsclub.org/

  thanks

   Joe




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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 13:14:01 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: And you think Ferm Recirc is a bad idea??

Fred Scheer thinks Fermenter Recirculation #6 is a Bad Idea

"As far as I know, this kind of process
caused SCHLITZ Brewing to close the doors.
Some of the older Brewers at PABST told me that
the beers tasted "BAD" from the day it
came on the market."

I don't know why, but that reminds me of a limerick...

There once was a girl named Anheuser,
Who claimed that no man could surprise her.
She gave Pabst a chance,
And found Schlitz in his pants.
And now she is sadder, Budweiser.


Apologies,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 22:35:01 +0000
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpumonkey at hotmail.com>
Subject: Hefeweizen Question


I'm trying to figure out what kind of all-grain batch to do next.   I was 
thinking about a Hefeweizen, which I've never done before.  However, every 
all-grain wheat beer recipe I find recommends doing a protein rest.

Now, I do single infusion mashes.  I've never done any kind of rest but 
saccharification.   I have a pretty simple setup: a plastic bucket for a hot 
liquor tank feeding into six gallon plastic gott-style cooler, and I heat 
all my water on the stove top.   I can't really raise and lower temperatures 
at will like one would with an RIMS.

My question is this: How would I do that?  Do I just start out with a dryer 
mixture for the protein rest, add boiling water, and then end up with a 
watery saccharification mixture?  Is the protein rest really necessary?

Thanks,

 - Dave




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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 17:08:05 -0600
From: Brian Dube <brian.dube at gotgoat.com>
Subject: Beer in Kansas City

I've been in Kansas City, Missouri, for the past few days and I would like 
to recommend McCoy's Public House and Brewkitchen as a nice brewpub to 
visit if you're in the area. I regret that I had time for only one of their 
microbrews, the Red Light Raspberry, but it was a treat. And don't forget 
to try their wheat rolls made with spent grains.


- --
Brian Dube
Columbia, Missouri 



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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 15:48:09 -0800
From: scott thompson <siltyclay at earthlink.net>
Subject: Hamm's tapper keg

I have learned an enormous amount lurking here over the years. I now 
have a question I hope one (or more) of you g00r00s can help with:

My brewing buddy just obtained a 2-1/4 gallon Hamm's "tapper keg", 
circa the 1960s. It's aluminum, with a spigot centered on top.  We 
are looking to clean and re-fill it and are stumped. Has anyone out 
there  been able to re-use one of these?

Thanks in advance,


scott t.


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