---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  1st Brew (Nick Nik)
  mail order beer/wine/liquor (ensmingr)
  ultimate attenuation (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at AkzoNobel.com>
  Tales of She Who Must Be Brewed For (Kevin Kutskill)
  Fermenter Recirculation #6 - Bad Idea ("Fred Scheer")
  re: what really smells... er stinks ("-S")
  Small steam plant ("Doug A Moller")
  Buffalo, NY Tips (Bob Hall)
  Tips for Homebrewers Conference (Bob Hall)
  RE: Fermentor Recirculation (dblewis)
  Paulaner Hefeweizen yeast (Michael Hartsock)
  Extract brewers and writers needed . . . ("Ray Daniels")
  re: Tales of She Who Must Be Brewed For (Michael Owings)
  Re: Fermentor Recirculation ("-S")
  carbonate/bicarbonate buffer system ("Dave Burley")
  Erdinger Dunkel Weiss (Rama Roberts)
  Jet City Triple 7 Apricot Rye Nectar ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Partial Mash for a CAP (william.m.menzl)
  Association of Brewers goes "On the Road" ("Monica Tall")
  Yeast lab W51 - anyone have a source? ("Jay Wirsig")
  Frank's wife and just a bit more. (aa8jzdial)


*
* Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! 
* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
*
* The HBD Logo Store is now open!
* http://www.cafeshops.com/hbdstore
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:16:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Nick Nik <nikifor99 at yahoo.com>
Subject: 1st Brew

My first brew has been in the primary 6.5 gal bucket
fermenter for 10 days. I made it from a True Brew IPA
ingredients kit and used Burton liquid ale yeast
#WLP023. If I could put that brewing aroma in a
candle, there would be men at candle parties. 

I plan on bottling in 2 more days. I was a bit worried
when the fermentation took 20 hours to start. But it
was recommended by the beer store guy to just warm,
shake, and pitch. I had the fermenter in only 65
degree temp and moved it to warmer location hoping
that would get it going. Unfortunately, the temp
reached 80 at one point but I did get it stabilized to
around low 70s. The most vigorous activity was about 1
bubble per second out of the 3 piece airlock. It has
been mid to high 60s for the past 5 days and when I
push down on the lid I can still blow off some CO2.
The fragrance is not as overpowering but still smells
great. 

I am hoping it comes out good. In my poor boy college
days I drank Meister Brau at 4.50/case. Hopefully this
will be much better.

I am fortunate today to have received brewing and
kegging equipment from a couple of guys that don't
brew anymore. I will be happy to brew more than one
batch at a time.

Nick






Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 01:23:27 -0500
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: mail order beer/wine/liquor

WRT the post on interstate shipping of beer/wine/liquor, 
<http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/4211.html#4211-16> ... Beverages 
and More (of California, <bevmo.com>) has many restrictions on 
inter-state shipping. See <bevmo.com> and click on the 'shipping 
info' tab.

The result for NY state:
Beer: not available for NY
Spirits: not available for NY
Wine: not available for NY

Apparently, NY state residents *can* purchase beer/wine/liquor 
from Sam's Superstore (of Illinois, <http://www.samswine.com>).

These byzantine laws!

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
- -----
http://hbd.org/ensmingr



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 13:23:29 +0200 
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at AkzoNobel.com>
Subject: ultimate attenuation

Hi,

In Digest #4211 A.J. explains a lot.  But some of my questions remain. 
A.J. says >When the attenuation of a yeast is expressed as a percentage it
refers to the percentage of the wort solids that are expected to be
converted to CO2 and alcohol.>  So the maltotetraose and longer aren't
included in the 100 %?
A.J. says >a yeast that attenuates 70% would leave 30%  behind> .  When the
wort consists (in theory) 100 % fermentable sugars (glucose, maltose,
maltotriose) is this yeast still  fermenting 70 % ??  If so, I assume the
rest is maltotriose ?

Greetings from Holland (Europe), Hans Aikema
http://home.wanadoo.nl/hoorns.hopbier/gisteng.htm




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 06:58:19 -0500
From: Kevin Kutskill <beer-geek at comcast.net>
Subject: Tales of She Who Must Be Brewed For

In HBD #4211, Frank in Buffalo writes:

>>>
SWMBO is a beer snob, and she's gotten particularly bad in the last
few years.  We'll go to a restaurant, and when we ask for the beer
selection the waitress often responds, "We have everything."
SWMBO likes good beer, but she delights in the game, too.

"I'll have a Delirium Tremens?"
"A what?"
"Never mind.  How about a Chimay Blue?"
"No."
"Red, Gold, White?"
"Sorry."
"Then I want a Victory Hop Devil."

SWMBO will keep naming beers until, like a cat tired of tormenting
the mouse, she says, "Just give me a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale," at which
point the exasperated waitress cries, "We only have *regular* beer."

The cat pounces.  SWMBO looks off defiantly, puts her nose in the air, and
says, in a measured, icy tone, "I'll...just...have...a...Coke...."
<<<

Finally!  Someone else who can't resist playing the game!   My wife cringes
every time we go to a place that is not craft or import beer friendly, I ask
what kind of beers they have, and they answer "we have everything, just tell
me what you want".  Sometimes, if I don't feel like playing the game, I
smile and tell them "no, you don't want me to tell you what I want.  What is
the most weirdest beer you have, that no one ever orders?"  That usually
points them in the right direction.  I think that if the wait staff is that
ignorant of the beers that are served there, they deserve a little toying
with.  A number of times, there will be one (and only one) beer that I would
probably drink at that restaurant, but the wait staff didn't realize they
have it, or they state "no one ever orders that". 

Someone should start a support group.  

Kevin
beer-geek at comcast.net




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 06:44:22 -0600
From: "Fred Scheer" <FHopheads at msn.com>
Subject: Fermenter Recirculation #6 - Bad Idea

As far as I know, this kind of process
caused SCHLITZ Brewing to close the doors.
Some of the older Brewers at PABST told me that
the beers tasted "BAD" from the day it
came on the market.
Let's learn from the past and don't ruin a 
Great Homebrew.
Thanks,
Fred


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 05:57:53 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: what really smells... er stinks

Nathaniel P. Lansing writes ....

>Steve went on about autolysis and its' aroma, saying,
>>> Autolysed yeast do NOT smell like burning
>tires. <<
>
>  From Virginia Tech, Food Science and Technology Dept...
[...]
> However, the process of sur lie ... can occasionally result in ...
> H2S and mercaptans. ...   Ethyl mercaptan
> possesses_a_burnt_rubber_, skunk or garlic-like character. Methyl
> mercaptan has a sensory characteristic of cooked cabbage. ...

Let me repeat the points.

1/ Not all yeast will develop any significant sulfur note during autolysis.
I don't even find it common.   Note Del's citation lists the development of
mercaptans as occasional.

2/On the occasions when autolysing yeast do produce sulfur aromas the
immediate produce is H2S released from proteins & RNA via the freed enzymes.
H2S is reactive and as Del points out can create a number of interesting
chemicals with sulfur based aromas, but this is long after the autolysis.
I contend none of these smell at all like burnt rubber.

- --

The aroma descriptions cited are defective.  Ethyl-mercaptan is commonly
added to natural gas so gas leaks can be smelled but that doesn't smell like
burnt rubber.  Methyl mercaptan is characteristic of garlic not cabbage
(cabbage is  like dimethylsulphide).   Some claim that these two smell like
rubber.  I find that an acceptable but not very good aroma description.

There is something very wrong with a nose finds these basic thiol-alcohols
and *burning* rubber similar.  Burnt and burning rubber has an extremely
sharp and almost caustic aroma with heavy charry characteristics.  It's
reminiscent of burning motor oil with a strong sulfur note.

Autolysed yeast never have the charry characteristic nor the sharp sulfur
note.


Dr. Zoecklein attributes the "burnt rubber" description to an informal talk
by Linda Bisson of the UC Davis Enology dept.   I searched her on-line
writing and I see references to rubber smells, but not burnt rubber. Here is
a link to a fairly detailed description by Dr.Bisson.
http://wineserver.ucdavis.edu/lfbisson/PDF/VEN124%20Section%206.pdf

"Burning (or burnt) rubber" is a bad description of autolysed yeast aroma.
Even non-burning rubber is a poor description of autolysis aroma since it is
not all that common for substantial sulfur aromas to appear in autolysis,
and these thiol and mercaptan aroma appear long after the autolysis takes
place.   Rancidity too is a common aroma in autolysis, but a late effect.

Tell you what - cook up a yeast slurry then burn a bit of rubber and
compare - there is no comparison.

 -S





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 06:55:12 -0600
From: "Doug A Moller" <damoller at intergate.com>
Subject: Small steam plant

Hi,
I am in need of a small steam plant that is affordable(<$1000) for my home
brew system. I need about 100,000 btu's at 15 psi. Shadow mountain had
something like that but I can not find them anywhere!
Does anybody have any suggestions?

Doug




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 08:34:28 -0500
From: Bob Hall <rallenhall at toast.net>
Subject: Buffalo, NY Tips

I'll be in Buffalo next week for the NCAA Frozen Four, and would appreciate 
tips on micros, beer bars, homebrew stores or other locations of interest 
in and around the city. We'll be staying downtown at the Radisson, but will 
have a car. I've been to and enjoyed the Pearl Street Brewery, so leads to 
other locations would be appreciated.

Actually, after reading " Tales of She Who Must Be Brewed For," this 
morning, I should be calling Frank Tutzauer's wife!


Thanks,

Bob Hall,
Napoleon, OH 



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 08:54:06 -0500
From: Bob Hall <rallenhall at toast.net>
Subject: Tips for Homebrewers Conference

I'm thinking about attending the National Homebrewer's Conference in 
Chicago this June, and would appreciate tips and insights from those who 
have previously attended .... don't miss dinners or sessions, restrictions 
of guest registration (I assume that spouses fall under the guest 
catagory), etc. I've been on the conference web pages, but program 
descriptions and details seem to be a little sketchy. Of course it's early, 
but I need to arrange for the dates within a week or two.

Thanks in advance,
Bob Hall,
Napoleon, OH



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 09:10:58 -0500
From: <dblewis at dblewis.com>
Subject: RE: Fermentor Recirculation

Steve wrote (a few digests ago) regarding fermenter recirculation:

"If your pump wasn't made for continuous service or if it was but doesn't
hold up to week-long use then you have a bad pump. Fermenter recirculation
is still a great idea." 

I think a powerhead undergravel filter aquarium pump would be ideal for 
this application. It's fully sealed and submersible (making cleaning and
sanitizing a snap--just drop the whole thing in and turn it on). All
we're really looking for is to keep the yeast roused. I've had one running
for three years straight in our 30gal aquarium. Plus they're pretty 
inexpensive at <$20. Check out this link:

http://www.google.com/search?q=AquaClear+Powerhead

I've often wondered about some of the ferments in my 15gal plastic CC
fermenter. It's obvious that the yeast all sink in the cone after pitching 
and I wonder if a significant fraction of them get trapped under some of 
the cold break. I was thinking about getting one and trying it for at least
the first few hours after pitching.

Dennis Lewis
[175.3mi, 113.3] Apparent Rennerian, aka Warren, OH



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 06:16:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Paulaner Hefeweizen yeast

Has anyone ever cultured the Paulaner Hefeweizen yeast
from the bottle?  What about the origin of the bottle
strain, is it the primary?

That hefe has just the levels of banana/clove esters i
want, so any info would be great.

mike

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 08:33:03 -0600
From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net>
Subject: Extract brewers and writers needed . . . 

Hello all,

I'm looking for an experienced homebrewer to write a piece for Zymurgy
about brewing with extracts.  This might be a story on how to convert
all-grain to extract and select appropriate extracts and it also might
be a piece on brewing better beers with extracts.  

If you are interested, shoot me a note.  (I'll be out of the office on
Friday, April 4 but will respond by Monday to anyone who gets back to me
quickly.)

Cheers,

Ray Daniels
Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer
Director, Brewers Publications
Association of Brewers

ray at aob.org
773-665-1300

For subscriptions and individual copy sales, call 1-888-822-6273. 




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 09:19:34 -0600
From: Michael Owings <mikey at swampgas.com>
Subject: re: Tales of She Who Must Be Brewed For

==== "Frank Tutzauer" <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
> SWMBO will keep naming beers until, like a cat tired of tormenting
> the mouse, she says, "Just give me a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale," at which
> point the exasperated waitress cries, "We only have *regular* beer."

I'd give both of you the same advice I recently gave my young son --
and this ranks right up there with "buy low, sell high":

Given the ease with which mucus and other bodily fluids can be
camouflaged in food and beverages, you should generally avoid
antagonizing your server. Trust me on this.

- -- mikey
====
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 10:34:02 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Fermentor Recirculation

Dennis Lewis says,

> I think a powerhead undergravel filter aquarium pump would be ideal for
> this application.

You're probably right, but I may have neglected to mention the downside of
excessive agitation - higher fusel alc rates.   That yeast may produce more
fusels with agitation etc has been known since the early trials w/
continuous fermentation in the 1960s.    Very strain & method dependent.
The amount of agitation is should be limited.   The study I referenced (Q4
2002 ASBC I think) shows that the equiv of a 1.1 inch diamer prop in 5 gal
at 18rpm is around the minimum required to hit the max fermentation rate.
That's pretty gentle agitation.

> I was thinking about getting one and trying it for at least
> the first few hours after pitching.

It *may* be more critical to agitate after high kreusen than before.

 -S




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:14:43 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: carbonate/bicarbonate buffer system

Brewsters,

Alan Meeker says:

>True,the only buffering you'd get from a >bicarbonate/carbonate system
>would be  when both species are present, but this would >only happen in a pH
>range of approx. 9 - 10. Hardly anything we should be >encountering in our
>everyday brewing practices!

 -Alan

Alan Meeker, Ph.D.
Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions
Department of Urology

Alan,

Carbonic acid is an acid and has the pKa ( ~ 5 as I recall) to prove it!
Actually both ( carbonate and bicarbonate)  species are present in your
swimming pool at around 7 or less.  If they don't participate, then why are we
worried about them in water treatment for beer?

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley
Ph.D., Physical Chemistry






Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 08:42:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: Erdinger Dunkel Weiss

>I tasted this the other night, and immediately fell in
>love. What I'm looking for is info about how to approximate
>the wonderful flavors of this brew.  

I too would love to see a clone of this brew, having tried and failed as one of 
my early all-grain recipes on February 2001. (See Jeff Renner's reply to my 
post, Re: dunkelweizen color, in HBD 3559.)

I believe I used a 50/50 mix of munich and wheat, which ended up tasting 
nothing like what I was aiming for. If I were to repeat it, I'd take Jeff's and 
Leo Vitt's advice and track down some dark wheat malt. 

Be sure to post the results if you end up brewing this tasty beer.

- --rama



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 13:06:53 -0500
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Jet City Triple 7 Apricot Rye Nectar

Hi all,

Sadly Ranier is nolonger brewing this fabulous beer. It was a one of a kind
treasure, does anybody out there in Seattle have any ties to Jet City? I
would love to brew a clone of this beer. The packaging said it was brewed
with the essence of Apricot, which makes me wonder if that means it was
artifical. Either way it was the Best American fruit beer I ever had until
New Glarus came around...

Phil Wilcox
The Warden of Jackson Michigans Prison City Brewers




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 14:56:44 -0500 
From: william.m.menzl at dowcorning.com
Subject: Partial Mash for a CAP

A brewing friend of mine who currently does extract (with steeping)
brewing only would like to attempt a CAP but doesn't want to
jump into all-grain just yet.  We are thinking about trying
a partial mash recipe but I am unsure of the amount of
6-row pale malt necessary to convert the flaked maize.  Any
ideas or suggestions?  Would the amount be much different
if he uses 2-row pale malt?

Thanks in advance!

William Menzl
Midland, Michigan [99.8, 344.8] Apparent Rennerian




________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan
service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working
around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 15:21:27 -0700
From: "Monica Tall" <monica at aob.org>
Subject: Association of Brewers goes "On the Road"


The Association of Brewers (AOB) invites YOU to participate in upcoming
festivities...

Meet "homebrewing guru" Charlie Papazian, sip beer and enjoy good times with
your brewing community.  Pass this email to other beer enthusiasts!

WHAT: Association of Brewers On the Road Tour 2003
http://www.beertown.org/events/otr/index.html

WHEN: April 21-24, 2003

WHERE: Mid-south Region - U.S.A.
	Nashville and Memphis, Tennessee
	Little Rock, Arkansas
(Papazian will start the On the Road Tour in Nashville, Tenn.,
making 13 stops along the way to end in Little Rock, Ark.)

EVENT SCHEDULE: http://www.beertown.org/events/otr/index.html

Papazian will visit homebrew supply shops, breweries, homebrew club meetings
and/or special brewing events during his tour, working to attract new
passion
for craft brewing and homebrewing and put both groups in touch with local
breweries and homebrew supply shops.

Whether it's a beer dinner, lecture or tasting, homebrewers, craft brewers,
beer enthusiasts and ANYONE interested in beer or their local brewing
community is welcome to enjoy good times during the tour's events.

SPECIAL EVENT
WHAT: Completely Relaxing & Joyous HOMEBREW CONTEST
	Hosted by Boscos Brewing Co. and Music City Brewers
WHEN: April 21, 2003
WHERE: Boscos Nashville Brewing Company
	Nashville, Tennessee
ENTRY DEADLINE: April 11, 2003
GRAND PRIZE: Bragging Rights! And a unique plaque provided by Boscos Brewing
Co.
NO ENTRY FEE
ANYONE across the nation CAN ENTER this contest!

Papazian will judge the five finalists, deciding what beer is
the most "completely joyous and relaxing."

For contest info, rules and entry forms, visit
http://www.beertown.org/events/otr/index.html

Help promote this event around your community!
AOB On the Road Tour posters and press releases are now
available
http://www.beertown.org/events/otr/index.html

Questions?
Association of Brewers, www.beertown.org,
888.822.6273/+1.303.447.0816 or
Chuck Skypeck, Boscos Brewing Co., 901.278.0087, chuck at boscosbeer.com

On the Road Tour 2003 sponsors are: Briess Malting Company, www.briess.com;
Party Pig by Quoin, www.partypig.com; Wyeast Laboratories, Inc.,
www.wyeastlab.com


- ---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.459 / Virus Database: 258 - Release Date: 2/25/2003



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 19:23:08 -0500
From: "Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig at usa.dupont.com>
Subject: Yeast lab W51 - anyone have a source?

A few years ago I made a great weizen using Yeast Lab W51.  I have never
been able to duplicate these results using WYeast Wiehenstephen Wheat.  I'm
trying to find a source for this Yeast Lab product - can anyone help?  I
found the following on the HBD web site:

Yeast Lab W51 Bavarian Weizen This strain produces a classic German style
wheatbeer, with moderately high, spicy phenolic overtones reminiscent of
cloves.
Medium attenuation, moderately flocculant. Evidently much more consistent
than Wyeast at producing a true Weizen flavor.



This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains 
information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under
applicable law.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail,
in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited.  Please notify the sender
by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system.  Unless
explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended",
this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment,
or an acceptance of a contract offer.  This e-mail does not constitute
a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing
purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.

 Francais Deutsch Italiano  Espanol  Portugues  Japanese  Chinese  Korean

            http://www.DuPont.com/corp/email_disclaimer.html




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 00:37:32 +0000
From: aa8jzdial at attbi.com
Subject: Frank's wife and just a bit more.

#1 Frank, your recent post regarding your wife's palate / atitude cracked me up.
Has she got any sisters? I hope the line she gave the waitress (whoops-wait 
staff) is not copy righted. Good stuff. Mine likes porter but only about 2 a 
month so darned if I am brewing 10 gallons to sit around for years.
#2 My use of the internet is about 90+% here on the good ole hbd. But last night
I queeried about mash stirring on Dogpile and found a fair boat of stuff.
Some of it was from the hbd way back in ought 94. Near ten years ago and folks 
were having the same basic discussions. I guess there ain't a lot new under the 
sun. Some of the names I recognized from recent digests. You high seniority 
guys have a lot of patience to put up with all of us novices and I for one 
appreciate it. So this is a thank you and good old deep burb to you all.
tnx
rick 
just west of Dalton, Mi. 


Return to table of contents

---