---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Where and What ("Jeff Tonole")
  Weizen yeast (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at AkzoNobel.com>
  RE: wyeast (Michael Hartsock)
  Re: SWMBO (Jeff Renner)
  Target Hops ("Reddy, Pat")
  Grab that fryer (Mark Kempisty)
  Lower alcohol ale recipe - English "session" ale? (FRASERJ)
  Re: Fly sparging (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Slow Fermentation ("Marcie Greer")
  Re: High Oxalate in Draft, low in bottle? (Jeff Renner)
  Fruit beers ("Jason Lindner")
  RE: Fruit Saison ("Sven Pfitt")
  Blue Wheat ("Philip J Wilcox")
  What's all that stuff in our beer!?! (omarandbecca)
  sterling hops ("Doug Marion")
  Tap-a-Draft Bottles ("Val J. Lipscomb")
  How do you aerate? ("Dave Larsen")
  RE: Fruit Wheat Beer ("Leonard, Phil")
  drill pumps ("Tom & Dana Karnowski")
  Re: Challenger hops (Jeff Renner)
  Hot Yeast ("Dave and Joan King")
  Celebrate AHA 6th Annual Big Brew - May 3 (monica)
  cheap bottles ("Dean")


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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 02:29:51 -0400
From: "Jeff Tonole" <jtonole at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: Where and What

Just got caught up on a week's worth of HBD, so I'm a little late to the
party -- but I brought beer!

WHERE: I started brewing outside on a propane cooker when I lived in
California, where you can brew outside year-round without dressing like the
Michelin man. I've continued my year-round outdoor brewing despite moving to
the chilly Northeast (after an equally chilly two-year layover in Chicago),
with some adjustments. When it's below 40F or so, I mash and sparge in the
kitchen. The cooker is right outside my kitchen door, minimizing the
distance that water and wort must be moved. Plus, I can watch the boilovers
from inside. (Oops, I mean watch FOR boilovers from inside...)

WHAT: Here's what's in the SlothBrew cellar:

FERMENTING
Fall Creek Bitter (house ale)

ON DRAFT
The Ides of Marzen
Finn MacCool's Stout

IN BOTTLES
Decalogue Imperial Stout (Feb 2002 -- my 10th anniversary as a homebrewer)
Olde Three-Toe Barleywine (Jan 2000)
Big 12 Barleywine (from the original Big Brew in May 1998)

ON DECK
Your Only Man Robust Porter
Barleywine/APA parti-gyle session for Big Brew 2003

You can never have too much barleywine...

jeff tonole
SlothBrew -- one of the seven deadly sins
Ithaca, NY





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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:29:02 +0200
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at AkzoNobel.com>
Subject: Weizen yeast

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone (from Germany??) has an answer on my questions:
How many yeasts have the possibility to make 4-vinyl guaiacol (4-VG).

In Germany are about 600 breweries and most (at least a lot) of them make a
Weizenbier. Do they all use the same yeast for Weizenbier (Wheatbeer)?

Greetings from Holland (Europe), Hans Aikema
<http://home.wanadoo.nl/hoorns.hopbier/>



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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 06:07:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: wyeast

I use 750mL wine bottles, but I'm thinking of
switching to a jim beam 1/2 gal bottle.  Good and
heavy with a handle.

Michael

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:03:05 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: SWMBO

John Campbell, AKA Cyserman <johncampbell at comcast.net> writes

>Check out Rod Peterson's history of SWMBO here
>http://www.woodbutcher.net/swmbo.htm
>He has the most complete answer I have found to date.

Except that he fails to mention my favorite part of this, the 1960s 
movie "She" starring Ursula Undre.. I mean Andress, subject of many 
undergraduate fantasies of the time.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:16:14 -0500
From: "Reddy, Pat" <Pat.Reddy at mavtech.cc>
Subject: Target Hops

I am trying to recreate a recipe I made a few years ago using Target hops
but I'm having no luck finding them.
Can anyone recommend a suitable substitute hop to Target?  Thanks.

Pat Reddy
MAVERICK Technologies
Pat.reddy at mavtech.cc
 



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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:32:08 -0400
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Grab that fryer

If you need a burner or turkey fryer set-up and you find it at a great
close-out price (like the $15 Ryan saw at Wal-Mart) GRAB IT.  That price
is a steal.  The burner alone is worth more than that.  I picked up one
last fall for $20 at my local Wal-Mart.  The pot will be used for
turkeys and the burner for both sparge water heating (with a dedicated
HLT) and whatever else I need it for including turkeys.

- --
Take care,
Mark






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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:46:01 -0400
From: FRASERJ at Nationwide.com
Subject: Lower alcohol ale recipe - English "session" ale?

I am interested in finding a recipe for a nice ale, but with a lower
alcohol content of say around 3%.  Something thats going to be nice and
somewhat hoppy (cascade is my favourite), with some malt tones and a good
colour.  I am guessing that these criteria are pretty close to what they
call an English session ale, but I cannot locate a good recipe.  Any
assistance on style would be handy!

Does anyone have a good recipe they would like to share?  Summer is on its
way and nothings better than sitting out and downing a few pints, but I
don't want a constant buzz!

John M. Fraser





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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:10:47 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Fly sparging

Al Korzonas <brewinfo at xnet.com> makes a welcome cameo appearance to write:

>I futher *speculate* that the English term "Running Beer"
>could even be related to this.  Running Beer was typically a weak
>beer.

I tried to document what I recollect but couldn't in the bit of time 
I had, but my memory is that running beer was beer that was more or 
less in constant production and consumption without any particular 
aging, as opposed to stock beer, which was aged.  As a weak beer, it 
would not only not benefit from aging but in the bad old days, would 
not even keep a long time without souring.  Stock ale, of course, was 
much stronger.

If I run across a source for this I will post it.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:11:33 -0400
From: "Marcie Greer" <tea.dye at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Slow Fermentation

I would be interested in hearing about slow fermentations from the other
side of the coin. What if you *want* a very slow fermentation? When
would you want it, what differences does it make and what can you do to
slow things down? 

Often I am not in any hurry, I just want the best beer possible at the
with work and so on and sometimes it would be nice to be able to be more
leisurely with the beer schedule.

Thanks!
Marcie in Latrobe, PA
Homebrewin' a block from the Rolling Rock




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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:43:54 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: High Oxalate in Draft, low in bottle?

Catching up on old HBDs.  No one seems to have answered this:

"Thomas Oakes" <tom at element117.com> writes:

>A family member is a nurse and recently brought home a flyer that outlines a
>low oxalate meal plan. ... One of the low, and thus acceptable 
>items, is bottled beer. ... On the other extreme, in the high 
>oxalate level column is draft beer. ... Now, I've bottled and I've 
>kegged... I've bottled and kegged the same batch sometimes so how 
>does the serving vessel make a difference?
>
>I know commercial bottled beer is treated differently than kegged
>(pasteurization) but why does one have such a lower amount of oxalate in it?

I am sure that this is a bit of misinformation that keeps getting 
repeated.  I've seen other examples.

Way back in the past, commercial bottled beer might have been 
filtered differently or even brewed differently for longer shelf 
life.  Oxalate crystals very likely could precipitate out over time. 
Draft beer used to be kegged only normal a polish filter, and was not 
pasteurized.  It was shipped typically to local markets and consumed 
quickly.

As you surmised, there surely could be no difference between our 
bottled or kegged beer.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:21:51 -0800
From: "Jason Lindner" <jason at admin5.fastmail.fm>
Subject: Fruit beers

I recently brewed a Blueberry Amber.  After much research, I put the
fruit into the secondary.  When it was time to move my brew from primary
to secondary, I flash pasteurized two pounds of frozen blueberries by
dumping them into boiling water, and then poured them into the secondary.
 The beer didn't end up with much of a blueberry taste to it, though.  If
anything, it had a faint wine taste in the finish (I think my remaining
active yeast went ahead and fermented my blueberry juice for me!).  Next
time I try it I will probably use an extract, either in the secondary or
before priming.  The best advice is just to try whatever sounds best to
you.  Even though my Groundhog Day Blueberry Amber didn't come out quite
as I envisioned it, it was still roundly praised as a mighty tasty brew!

> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 17:17:06 -0300
> From: Aaron Legge <alegge at accesswave.ca>
> Subject: Fruit Wheat Beer
> 
> 
> I am planning on brewing my first wheat beer as a blueberry wheat ale. 
> I have found some recipes that I am going to use as a basis for creating
> mine own, 
> however I have run into a problem, when do I add the fruit?  I have
> found 
> recipes that call for adding the fruit just after the boil, allowing it
> to 
> steep and then leave it in the primary other recipes have called for
> putting 
> the fruit in the secondary and racking the beer on top of it, I have
> also 
> seen recipes calling for a fruit extract being used to prime the beer
> with 
> extract prior to bottling or kegging.  Has anyone had any experience
> with 
> brewing fruit wheat beers?  What seems to be the best time to put the
> fruit in? 
> I am hoping to have a taste of the blueberry but nothing overpowering
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Aaron Legge: Nova Scotia, Canada
> 


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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:33:12 -0400
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Fruit Saison

John Misrahi queried about my fruit Saison.

I brewed eleven gallons and primaried it with WLP565 yeast in a 15 gallon 
CCF for two weeks. Pitching temp was 80F, and I held it at 76F by using a 
heat lamp on the fermenter. It was 55F in the garage at the time. OG was 
1.079, and when I racked it off the primary yeast it was down to 1.022.

I split it in two batches, one was dumped on 3# frozen raspberries and 2# 
frozen strawberries. The second batch got 4# of dried Zanta black currants 
and 3# of frozen raspberries.

I allowed the beer to stay on the fruit for almost two months before racking 
to carboys to finish settling. The beer was bottle conditioned with 1 cup of 
corn sugar per 5 gallons.

The Gimps Golden Syrup is inverted sugar. Eagle Golden syrup is a commercial 
syrup made from corn sugar, cane sugar and honey. One could just use 
inverted sugar and a bit of honey, or just inverted sugar. Sugar was added 
at beginning of the boil.

20.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row)
2.00 lbs. Munich Malt
0.50 lbs. Special B Malt
2.00 lbs. Wheat Malt
2.75 lbs. Gimp's Golden Syrup
1.00 lbs. Eagle Golden Syrup

2.00 oz.    Czech Saaz                    Whole    4.00  14.1  First WH
2.00 oz.    Styrian Goldings            Pellet     4.00  15.7  60 min.
2.00 oz.    Czech Saaz                     Whole   4.00   2.8  10 min.

0.10 Oz     Irish Moss                     Fining    15 Min.(boil)
3.00 Tsp    Corriander Seed             Spice      5 Min.(boil)
0.25 Oz     Vanilla Bean                  Spice      0 Min.(boil)
3.00 gm     Grains of Paradise         Spice      0 Min.(boil)
2.00 Oz     Bitter Orange Peel         Spice     15 Min.(boil)

Intermediate Rest Temp :       144  Time:  30
Saccharification Rest Temp : 152  Time:  60
Mash-out Rest Temp :            158  Time:  20
Sparge Temp :                        168  Time:  45

This ended up being a very tart Saison with so much fruit that it is would 
probably get poor ratings as a Saison in NHC. It would probably score better 
as a Fruit beer. The currants are a bit overpowering. I would recomend 
dropping back to 3# per 5 gallons.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968



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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:04:08 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Blue Wheat

Aaron,

if you are kegging then the secondary is the way to go. a coulpe of bags of
frozen blueberries in the carboy for a week. then keg! Bang! I do this for
raspberryies all the time, 5 bags for 3 days equals an over the top berry
Flaming Pink Raspberry Wheat ale-It's a real chick magnet! If you want to
taste the wheat then cut it down to 2 or 3 bags...

Phil Wilcox
the Warden - Jackson Mi's Prison City Brewers

PS. Bob Barrett is cheating naming all the commercial beers...I would never
do that! i would have to install a new security system! Lets just say that
my collection includes numerous extinct beers and I am now only 1 beer
short of completing my trappist collection!




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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:22:40 +0000
From: omarandbecca at visi.com
Subject: What's all that stuff in our beer!?!



That was my wife's reaction when she saw the carboy
of my first attempt at all-grain brewing. 
After much planning and hand-wringing, I finally got my first
batch of All-grain under my belt. I ran into a few problems, 
learned some lessons for next time, such as its good to relax
and have a home-brew while brewing, but maybe not good to relax
and have 5 home-brews while brewing! 
I got a new wort kettle, converted keg from Sabco, and boiled
away outside. In the old days, extract brewing, I would rack off 
the wort into the kettle and try to leave a bunch of the trub, hops,
junk in the bottom of the brew kettle. This time, I used the bulkhead
on the kettle and drained it into my carboy. I did stir everything
to try and get the junk to settle in the middle, but when I checked out
the carboy, I must have had a 1/3-1/4 of it filled with solids. 
It looked awful.  I'm certain much of it will settle out, but what do
I do to keep so much of that stuff from making it into the carboy?
I was looking forward to use the kettle's drain to transfer to the carboy
and would hate to go back to racking the wort into the carboy.
I did stir in Irish Moss the last 15 minutes, another new twist.
I did use pellet hops and am thinking of switching to whole hops.
Anyone have any suggestions on what I should do to keep
that junk in the kettle?

thanks,
Omar in Minneapolis


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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:33:12 -0600
From: "Doug Marion" <mariondoug at hotmail.com>
Subject: sterling hops


Has anyone had any experience using sterling hops? Supposed to have some 
saaz characteristics with higher alpha acid, higher yield if you're growing 
them and eisier to grow also. Does it have enough saaz characteristics that 
it could be used successfully in pilsner styles? Just curious what some 
users of this hop thinks before I buy some to add to my hop garden. Thanks

Cheers,
Doug






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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:35:56 -0500
From: "Val J. Lipscomb" <vlipscomb at satx.rr.com>
Subject: Tap-a-Draft Bottles

Greetings Brew Folk,

Has anyone out there found a stronger 6 liter bottle
for the T-A-D system?? The ones that come with it are
ridiculously flimsy. I dropped one yesterday,about a 6
inch fall into a fiberglass sink,and it cracked in
several places. 6 liters of IPA went down the drain
before I could rescue any of it. Then I broke a carboy,
but that's another story.
Surely someone makes a 6 liter PET bottle that'll work.
I have used the 3 liter coke bottles and they are great
but that wastes a lot of CO2. HELP!!!

Val Lipscomb
Brewing in Sunny San Antonio




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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:13:40 +0000
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpumonkey at hotmail.com>
Subject: How do you aerate? 


It serves me right for being lazy.  I have not made a starter in a long time 
and my aeration efforts seem to be lacking, because I've got a stuck ferment 
(I knew there were going to be problems when the lag time stretched out to 
almost 24 hours).  I'm pretty sure it is not a temperature issue.  The wort 
has been 66 to 67 degrees F the whole time, well within the range for White 
Labs WLP005 (British Ale).

Most of the time I get lucky pitching directly from White Labs pitchable 
tubes.  Also, when I put the wort into the fermentor I dribble it high 
enough so it splashes making bubbles to aerate it.  However, this is 
obviously not enough.

This is the second one I've had problems with within a year.  The last one 
was just a slow ferment rather than getting completely stuck.  As a result, 
from now on it is starters and better aeration for me.

I have no issue with making starters.  However, my question is this: what 
are people using to aerate their worts?  I've looked around at a couple of 
possibilities:

First is the air stone and aquarium pump thing.  I have a number of 
questions about that.  How do you attach the airlock and the airstone to the 
carboy at the same time?  What do you use to filter the air going through 
the stone?  My brew shop does not seem to sell filters like that, so I 
imagine I may have to build one.  Finally, how long do I aerate it for?

The second possibility are these impeller things that people attach to a 
drill: the Mix-Stir Aerator and the Fizz-X Aerator.  I'd never heard of 
those before I saw them on a web page:

http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/2,1325.html

Do they work?  Is it easier/better than the air stone thing?  How long to 
you run it for?  Do you seal up the top of the carboy before you run it?  If 
not, does it splash the wort out of the carboy?

That is about it for my questions.

Thanks,

Dave
Tucson, AZ





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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:42:07 -0500
From: "Leonard, Phil" <Phil.Leonard at dsionline.com>
Subject: RE: Fruit Wheat Beer

I have always added fruit to the secondary and racked the beer onto it.  
I have used raspberries, strawberries, blueberries, and even pineapple (once) 
this way.  The beer comes out very well.

Philip


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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:10:56 -0400
From: "Tom & Dana Karnowski" <karnowsk at esper.com>
Subject: drill pumps

I have looked at the archive but never got quite what I was looking for on
this one...

I have a drill pump that is (obviously) not magnetically coupled.  I have
seen articles where people used those for pumping cleaning liquid in
homebrewing, chilled water, and in non-homebrewing uses for watering plants
and stuff

I have also seen posts where people wondered about using them for general
mashing purposes, but generally the advice seems to be "dont' do it, you'll
get grease and machine oil in the beer".

Well, I've been wondering if anyone out there has actually used it for
recirculation purposes during mashing. You don't have to admit to it in
public - a private email is fine.

Regardless, I'm not sure if I'll try it or not personally, as I'm afraid
people wouldn't want my beer if they thought I did this, but I was wondering
if anyone out there in HBD land has tried it and definitely had bad results
they could trace to the pump.  Not to be persnickety, but I want answers
along the lines of "I did it and the beer was awful" or "I've been doing it
for years and I haven't gotten cancer  yet", not things like "don't do it
you will get machine oil in your beer".

Thanks!!
Tom Karnowski
KNoxvillle TN




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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:03:59 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Challenger hops

Thanks to everyone who sent me advice on sourcing whole or plug 
Challenger hops - too many to easily thank each by individual email, 
so please accept my sincere thanks to the group.

Challenger is a great hop for English ales - I wish it were more 
widely available.

HBD is a great resource!

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:18:48 -0400
From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Hot Yeast

I make mistakes every time I brew, some worse than others.  Yesterday I made
a batch of my Friend's Ale, since summer is coming upon us, and the brew
season won't last much longer.  This is just a simple Amber Ale, with low to
medium hop bitterness, for those who don't care for my usual IPA's.  I used
recycled 1056 yeast, in a 1/2 gallon starter.

When I cooled it, I measured wrong, without enough stirring enough around my
immersion cooling coil.  I thought it was down to about 72F, so I pitched my
yeast starter.  I'm not sure why, but after stirring in the yeast and
whipping some O2 into it, I remeasured the temperature, and to my surprise,
it was 82F.  Yikes, I was afraid I cooked my little buddies, not knowing
just how sensitive they are.  The "big boys" tell me to cool to 75F or lower
before pitching yeast, so that's my usual practice.  I had no other yeast in
the house, and being Sunday night, I thought all I could do was hope.  After
spraying the wort into the primary (lots of O2), I signed off for the night.

This morning (14 hours after pitching) I was pleasantly surprised to hear my
big 1" ID blow off tube was bubbling on a regular 2 second beat.  The
temperature of the primary was 70F, so I think I'm fine.  The short time at
a high temperature didn't seem to kill my buddies, and it might have even
helped shorten the lag time.  The time was short enough, I don't think I'll
have flavor or fusel alcohol problems.  What do you think?

         Dave  King (BIER), [396.1, 89.1]  Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:04:27 -0600
From: monica at aob.org
Subject: Celebrate AHA 6th Annual Big Brew - May 3

Greetings from homebrewing land!

The American Homebrewers Association (AHA) invites you to celebrate
National Homebrew Day with its 6th Annual 2003 Big Brew event.

http://www.beertown.org/events/bigbrew/index.html

Keep your brew kettle out to be fired up before the summer heat hits.

Support the homebrewing community.  Bring local and international communities
together by celebrating this event!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

WHAT: AHA 6th Annual Big Brew event
*During this fun event, thousands of homebrewers and non-brewers from around
the world unite in brewing the same recipes and sharing a simultaneous toast
May 3 at noon Central Time.

WHEN: May 3, 2003
*AHA Big Brew is celebrated each year on the first Saturday in May.

WHERE: Anywhere around the WORLD - anywhere people love celebrating homebrew
*Last year, participants spanned five continents!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
HOW TO PARTICIPATE:
1) Register your Big Brew site
www.members.beertown.org/bigbrew_interface/Results/submission_form.asp
2) Find a Big Brew site in your area
www.members.beertown.org/bigbrew_interface/Results/results_page.asp
3) Read this year's Big Brew recipes
www.beertown.org/events/bigbrew/recipes.html
4) Participate in this year's **SPECIAL CONTEST**
**SPECIAL CONTEST GRAND PRIZE**
Win the complete set of Zymurgy, starting with the very first 1978 issue - a
$413 value.
www.beertown.org/events/bigbrew/contest.html
5) Invite non-brewing and brewing friends to help brew beer and ... HAVE FUN

SPREAD the homebrewing love ... help us promote Big Brew around your
community!
*Send this invitation to other beer enthusiasts.
*Hand out this Big Brew news release, and use it to promote your club or
homebrew shop's Big Brew event.
www.beertown.org/pr/pdf/bigbrew.pdf
*Hang up Big Brew posters (the poster will be available on the Big Brew web
page soon.)

**************************************************
HOMEBREWING TIDBIT:
In 1979, the AHA originally claimed National Homebrew Day to be the first
Saturday in May. On May 7, 1988, Congress officially recognized National
Homebrew Day. The AHA is a division of the Association of Brewers,
established 1978 in Boulder, Colorado, U.S.A.
**************************************************
Questions?
Association of Brewers, www.beertown.org
888.822.6273/+1.303.447.0816, aha at aob.org
**************************************************
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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:41:21 -0700
From: "Dean" <dean at DeanAndAdie.net>
Subject: cheap bottles

G'Day all.  I am looking for a source for cheap bottles.  Online or local to the
San Jose, CA area.  If you are thinking of getting rid of your bottles I am
willing to negotiate.
Thanks for the consideration.
- --Dean - Unscrambler of eggs
Quality Web Hosting http://www.3llamas.com


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