HOMEBREW Digest #4234 Thu 01 May 2003

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  Why I Decoct when I mash (Caryl Hornberger Slone)
  Astringent partial mash, Nate Hall ("Dave Burley")
  broken wort chiller (Michael Hartsock)
   (David Towson)
  Re: Two or three things (Jim Larsen)
  Re: First Wort Hopping (Jeff Renner)
  RCB Kegging (David Perez)
  CACA (David Perez)
  First Wort Hopping mistake, Berliner Weisse, NHC ("Doug Hurst")
  RE: Mash level controller (Jeff Berton)
  RE:Two or three things (Mark Alfaro)
  alcohol distilation ("Doug A Moller")
  Oops ("Doug A Moller")
  Sunshine Challenge Homebrew Competition ("Howard & Patty Curran")
  Re: Mash level controller (Will Fields)
  Re: Starch haze microbiology and biochemistry (Matthew Arnold)
  RE: Hardware Stores and Mash Level Sensors ("Mike Sharp")
  re:  First Wort Hopping ("-S")
  re: Mash Level controller - pump based (Don Price)
  re: mash level control - pump based - missing link (Don Price)
  Theakson Old Peculiar Yeast ("Jay Wirsig")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:19:32 -0500 From: Caryl Hornberger Slone <chornberger10 at comcast.net> Subject: Why I Decoct when I mash Why do I spend 4 hours mashing why I could produce the same beer with a 2 hour, maybe even 1 hour mash? I wonder if its something left over from a time when malts were poorly modified and dinosaurs roamed the earth. According to Eric Warner's book, "German Wheat Beer" (#7 of the Classic Beer Style Series): "If enzyme-rich barley malt is being used, and the grist composition contains no more than 50 percent wheat malt, a step infusion mash is possible. The barley malt should be very well modified, and the degree of protein solubility in the wheat malt should be above 40 percent. Six-row barley malt helps to increase the amount of enzymes and amino acids in the wort. If an authentic Weissbier is desired, however, at least a single decoction mash should be employed. The number of breweries that use an infusion mash to brew Weissbier is extremely limited , and I personally know of none that use a single-step infusion mash." This above paragraph (along with the rest of this book) and a conversation or two with some German relatives who own and operate a small town brewery, are the main reasons why I go through the trouble. But, nevertheless, I'm going to attempt to brew the same beer twice (as close as I can) and just change the mash schedules to see which I prefer. I've read over some of the old posts to this subject, and I don't believe that I can just add some speciality malts to accomplish the same beer. Anyone else want to add anything to this annals of this topic? Caryl(sounds like carl for whoever asked) Hornberger Slone Ft. Wayne, IN Curious how/why Renerrian(sp) coordinates came to be. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:42:40 -0400 From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net> Subject: Astringent partial mash, Nate Hall Brewsters: Brian is totally frustrated with his astringent partial mash brews and wants some advice. Brian, Without knowing a lot about your technique ( expand on this please), astringency can come from extracting phenolic compounds from the husks of some of the products you are using in your partial mash brew. Most likely this is due to a pH problem in your partial mash, especially if you have high pH water. Do you mash separately or mash into the extract dissolved in water? The latter method will help control the pH as you partial mash. Alternatively, you could control the pH with lactic acid additions used sparingly. Use lactic acid pH adjusted sparge water on your partial mash. You should also relook at your hops additions. Maybe you are adding too much. If you are a new brewer, one likely cause may be oxidation of the hot wort. This can cause an unpleasant bite ( in the early British HB literature incorrectly attributed to and called malt extract bite) , as can some of the lesser expensive malt extracts. Cure: stop allowing hot wort to mix with the air. If not change your extract. Maybe try a dried extract. Looking forward to hearing more about your mashing technique, etc. Consider a full mash, not a lot more time and effort and much better results. - ----------------------- In his funny comment, Nate Hall claims he searched the internet for information on vaginitis and "came up empty handed". So to speak. Maybe diverticulitis is closer to a more appropriate subject here. Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 06:17:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com> Subject: broken wort chiller Unless it is a really expensive chiller, I would do the following: Use a hacksaw or tube cutter and cut out the broken section. Thats right cut it right in half. Go to the hardware store and buy a copper sweat coupling ($0.19) that matches the OD of the tubing. Use that to couple the now separate halves of the wort chiller. Solder that in with lead free solder. If you have a propane torch, it will cost you very little to fix this ($0.19 + solder + flux). If you don't have a torch, you can buy a kit with a torch, tank, solder, and flux with for about $12. Still cheaper than paying some one else to fix it. You may have to straighten and inch or so of the coil (it will still work fine) to get a good fit in the coupling, just do this patiently and slowly so you don't completely kink it or flaten it. If you do mess up, just cut that part out as well. If you have no idea how to sweat copper, the $12 kit will have specific instructions and its a good skill to have. mike ===== "May those who love us, love us. And those that don't love us, May God turn their hearts. And if he doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles So we'll know them by their limping." Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:29:00 -0400 From: David Towson <SpamSink at comcast.net> Subject: In HBD 4233, Bill Tobler asks for suggestions for automatically controlling sparge water level. Go to www.grainger.com and enter "float valve" as the product search key. There are a number of items available, and at least some of them are quite inexpensive. But remember, these will only be reliable with water going through them. If any grain bits get in there, the show's over. Dave Towson in Bel Air, Maryland Email: dtowson at comcast dot net Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 9:44:00 -0400 From: Jim Larsen <jal7 at cox.net> Subject: Re: Two or three things Wil Kolb asks about getting the rust stain off the bottom of his ten-gallon cornie. I have no first-hand experience with this, but I do have a couple recommendations: Bar Keepers Friend has cleaned every stainless surface I've tried it on. Really the cat's meow. Naval Jelly is phosphoric acid in a gelatinized form. Outstanding for removing rust, as long as you keep the contact time under 20 minutes. (It can pit the surface.) I do not know how it works on stainless. Use a sturdy toilet brush (preferably a new one) to reach the bottom of the keg. This is my standard keg-cleaning tool. Let us know how you do get the stain off. Jim Larsen 625.1, 280.5 Apparent Rennerian aka Omaha, NE Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:58:15 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com> wrote from Chicago, IL: >Joel asks about Mash hopping: "If the wort goes through >the boil, wouldn't all the acids isomerize and the flavor oils boil >off." > >Our own Marc Sedam has a good description of Mash Hopping on the Paddock >Wood website: >http://www.paddockwood.com/guide_mash_hopping_sedam.html Doug has confused two distinct, non-standard hopping techniques. In mash hopping, the hops are blended in with the grains for the mash, but they are not boiled, although anything that has been extracted does. in first wort hopping, the hops are added to the first wort that runs off the mash and steep throughout the lauter, and are then boiled. owever, he has it right when he writes: >Apparently the hop oils are not lost during the boil. The process is >not well understood. Former HBDer Dave Draper has a good summary (as of 1997) at http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer/1stwort.html It's a great technique with some hops and for some styles. It delivers an amazing amount of hop flavor to the finished beer. I have two young Classic American Pilsners (one for my son's homecoming from the war where he was an F/A-18 pilot flying off the USS Abraham Lincoln over Baghdad) and one for the NHC in Chicago June 19-21. At this point they have almost too much Saaz flavor, but I know it will soften to blend with the whole flavor profile. The older one is ahead of the younger one. BTW, have you made plans to attend the NHC yet? It looks like the Chicago clubs are putting together a fantastic time, and other clubs are competing for the best showing at the club night and the hospitality room. And Michael Jackson will be there. See http://www.beertown.org/events/hbc/index.html Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:28:56 -0400 From: David Perez <perez at gator.net> Subject: RCB Kegging I tried to post this yesterday but it didn't take. So let's try again. Nils asks about RCB. I try to let people about my shopping experiences when ever possible. I think it provides good leverage with sellers when there is a problem and good referrals when there is high quality service. I just (as in a week ago) received my very large order from RCB and I am very pleased with their service at the time of sale and with follow up (najavsc). I got their "kit" with 5 cal cornie, Co2 tank, regulator, and picnic tap.plus a 4 additional 5 gals and a 3 gal cornie. I also am building a bar on top of a chest freezer and the salesman, Terry, helped me get the Tap Towers and all of the other equipment I was looking for. The key to me was, he had a complete kegging rookie and he didn't try to over sell me. There was also a few minor problems that he fixed immediately, with no hassles. Everything arrived in a week or less (from Cal to FL). Bottom line - Good equipment, Great customer service, very competitive prices! Dave Perez Hogtown Brewers Gainesville, FL Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:15:00 -0700 From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com> Subject: Kegging Eqiupment Hi, I'm getting ready to buy a kegging system. Was wondering if anyone has bought a system from RCB Equipment (http://www.rcbequip.com/) & what they thought of them. Thanks, Nils Hedglin Sacramento, CA [1978.7, 275.3] Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:34:35 -0400 From: David Perez <perez at gator.net> Subject: CACA Steve, I made a split batch CACA with a friend who made a CAP. You will be quite pleased with the CACA if you try it. You get most of the qualities of the CAP without the need for cold fermentation. Dave Perez Hogtown Brewers Gainesville, FL Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:38:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net> Subject: CAP question All the talk last year and this has me intrested in trying a CAP or CACA following the Master From The North guidelines. Until I get my brewery completed and turn the space under the stairs into a lagering/serving room I will have to contend with ale like temps. Has anyone tried making a CAP using lager yeasts at ale temps ala: Steam Beer? If not any thoughts on how this might turnout? Steven St.Laurent 403forbidden.net [580.2,181.4] Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:53:27 -0500 From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com> Subject: First Wort Hopping mistake, Berliner Weisse, NHC Jeff Renner wrote: "Doug has confused two distinct, non-standard hopping techniques." Jeff correctly pointed out that my brain was not working yesterday. For some reason I read Joel's original post and thought of Mash Hopping when he was clearly asking about First Wort Hopping. Not quite sure why I was confused, except that I've been thinking about Mash Hopping lately, particularly in regard to making Berliner Weisse. >From what I understand Mash Hopping is often used in Berliner Weisse, partially because the hops act to filter the mash, which consists of a lot of un-malted wheat. Is anyone out there making Berliner Weisse? If so, do you mash hop? Does anyone know of a good source of information for Berliner Weisse? I haven't been able to find much outside of an article in Zymurgy from about one year ago and some descriptions in Michael Jackson's books. I just love Kindl Weisse and want to make my own. Jeff goes on to say: "BTW, have you made plans to attend the NHC yet? It looks like the Chicago clubs are putting together a fantastic time,..." I will be there. I'm really looking forward to my first NHC. The schedule at the Chicago Beer society's website looks like it's going to be a good time with a variety of learning opportunities. http://www.chibeer.org/aha03/schedule.html As someone who doesn't belong to a local club I'll be representing "a club of one" at the festival. Doug Hurst Chicago, IL [215, 264.5] Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:23:35 -0400 From: Jeff Berton <jeff344 at galaxy.lerc.nasa.gov> Subject: RE: Mash level controller Bill Tobler writes: > A friend of mine wants to control the level of his mash tun during > sparging. He is looking for some kind of level controller to > control the liquid above the grain bed during sparging. I use an electronic liquid level switch in my mash tun that triggers a water-dispensing solenoid valve connected to my hot liquor supply tank. The switch I use is similar, if not identical, to item #4YM29 from Grainger (inexpensive at $14). Don't spend too much on the solenoid valve, either -- I use a water-dispensing valve (possibly from a dishwasher) costing about $10. I operate the switch and valve through a relay. As an aside, my hot liquor supply tank automatically maintains water temperature using an electric water heater element controlled by a simple bimetal thermostat switch. Regards, Jeff Berton North Royalton, OH Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:32:57 -0700 From: Mark Alfaro <malfaro at kyocera-wireless.com> Subject: RE:Two or three things Hi, To remove rust in your 10 gallon keg try Bar Keepers Friend. It is a scouring powder made for stainless steel. BKF contains Oxalic acid and does a fine job on rust stains. Tie a nylon scrubber to a stick and use it to scrub out the inside of the keg. Hope this helps. Mark Alfaro Chula Vista, CA 1950, 262.1 AR Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:42:21 -0500 From: "Doug A Moller" <damoller at intergate.com> Subject: alcohol distilation Here is a site you might find interesting about alcohol production for fuel at home. Another thing about alcohol is that even though it ahs less BTU per gallon it burns more efficiently in internal combustion engines because of the high octane. Also it is reported if you are burning straight alcohol it works even better with 25% water so it goes even further than gas plus it should increase mileage a bit and burn cleaner. As this page shows solar heat is easy for distillation and of coarse freezing both requiring licenses from the atf and state agencies if you choose to. Doug Not enough BEER! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:45:18 -0500 From: "Doug A Moller" <damoller at intergate.com> Subject: Oops What a dumb--- I am here is the link. Sorry http://www.eagle-research.com/fenergy/alcohol.html Doug Maybe too much BEER! Just kidding Not enough BEER! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:57:56 -0400 From: "Howard & Patty Curran" <OCurrans at cfl.rr.com> Subject: Sunshine Challenge Homebrew Competition The Sunshine Challenge is the premier home brewing and brewers' convention in the eastern United States. The last several years the Sunshine Challenge has attracted more entries that any other club competition east of the Mississippi and is the third largest club competition in the United States. The event attracts home brewers from around the United States. The "Challenge" is renowned not only for its competition, but for all of the fun-filled events and seminars that surround it. We invite you to look over the event site at: http://www.cfhb.org/ The Sunshine Challenge is a 3 day event, May 16-18, 2003. Again this year, the Sunshine Challenge will be at the Universal Holiday Inn located just across the street from Universal Studios, Orlando, Florida. Registration forms can be found at the web site, and payment can be made by check or, online, via PayPal. No matter how you pay, save $2.00 by registering online. Entry deadline is May 4th, so get your entries on the mail NOW!!! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:22:28 -0400 From: Will Fields <will at gfarch.net> Subject: Re: Mash level controller Bill Tobler asks about a mash level controller. Beer, Beer and More Beer of Concord CA has an electronic mash tun float switch. See www.morebeer.com and search for an E300. Will Fields So. Hamilton, MA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:27:35 -0500 From: Matthew Arnold <marnold at ez-net.com> Subject: Re: Starch haze microbiology and biochemistry > I have had several replies, both private and on-Digest, to my question > about starch haze, and I thank those who sent them. > > The consensus seems to be that infection is risked when starch is present. > My question becomes: Infecion by what? One caveat: IANAMB (I Am Not A MicroBiologist), nor do I play one on T.V. My sister is, but that fact is irrelevant to this discussion. The good friend of lambic brewers, Brettanomyces bruxellensis/lambicus, will very happily ferment unconverted starch. While it adds vital complexity to a lambic, very few (if any) other styles would benefit from its horsy aromas and flavors. It will also produce CO2 which could lead to gushers. Lambic/plambic brewers sometimes will do a turbid mash which is basically a reverse decoction mash. Instead of boiling the thick part of the mash, they will boil the thin part, killing enymes and providing a more starchy wort for the various bugs to nosh on over the long fermentation period. Thankfully Brettanomyces grows very slowly, so you might not even notice an infection in a beer that is intended to be drunk quickly. It could be a problem in a beer that you intend to store for a while. Matt Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:00:14 -0700 From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Hardware Stores and Mash Level Sensors Jeff Renner rightly said: "This is why I patronize Stadium Hardware and similar locally owned and operated businesses rather than the big-box stores." Amen to that! Some 10 or 15 years ago I used a part from the plumbing department and made a nifty gadget for my minikeg. A couple months ago I wanted to make another one, but couldn't for the life of me remember what the part started out life as (I had done some machining on the original). After prowling the locally owned hardware store's aisles for some time (nearly an hour) in vain, I asked a woman who worked there. She'd obviously been working there for years and years (turned out to be the manager). Anyway, she stared at my old cracked and discolored piece, and then walked straight up to the plastic part I originally used. Took her about 15 seconds to figure it out. At the "other" big brand hardware store, they would simply have told me "uh, we don't carry those"... Bill Tobler asks about a mash level controller... I've used capacitive level switches before with great effect. They can read right through the wall, but can't be used on metal tanks.... If he's using an insulated cooler for a mash tun, it's a piece of cake. He'll have to cut away the outer insulation in a vertical slot (it's all the way at the bottom of the page): http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/109/html/0449.html#. But this puppy is pricey, and I've mainly used it where I needed a non-invasive point level switch, but didn't want to spring for ultrasonics. In your buddy's case, I'd recommend one of these (choose the right temp ratings): http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/109/html/0446.html# A polypropylene reed switch, without slosh guard, rated for 221F, is only about $15. You'll have to hook it up with a relay/motor starter to either your pump, or a solenoid valve on the HLT. The float switch has a threaded pipe end, so you attach it to a long nipple, and use a pipe clamp arrangment on the top of the mash tun so that you can adjust the height. Regards, Mike Sharp Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:46:41 -0400 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: re: First Wort Hopping Joel asks >Hopefully a simple question. What does first wort >hopping do as far as flavor? Very far from simple. >If the wort goes through >the boil, wouldn't all the acids isomerize and the >flavor oils boil off. FWH is about the volatile flavor 'oils' not the humulone and lupulone acids. Yes those acids are isomerized in the boil but that's primarily about bitterness. There is some evidence that the volatile oils oxidize to a greater extent in the first wort. This makes them less volatile. They then survive the boil at greater rates and are finally reduced back into flavor active oils by the reducing action of fermentation. This sequence of events is far from proven. Hubert Hangofer posted details of a paper on this mechanism to HBD several years ago. If this explanation holds then the yeast and fermentation conditions may play a role in FWH flavors. I tried a controlled test of purposely oxidizing hops with peroxide in acidic conditions prior to addition but the results were far from conclusive. There is some recent evidence that the specific flavor oils we recognized as characteristic of Saaz and other noble hop aroma/flavor are due to very tiny quantities of very flavor active oils which have not yet been fully characterized. I posted on this w/in the past year I believe. >Perhaps there is some weird >kind of protein/hop reaction that locks in flavor. Just the oils and oxygen. It's almost certain that hops phenolics, including gallotannins would be precipitated at a greater rate as phenolic+protein break when the hops are added prior to the wort boil. Perhaps this is part of the improved flavor attributed to FWH. -Steve Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:29:26 -0400 From: Don Price <dprice1 at tampabay.rr.com> Subject: re: Mash Level controller - pump based Bill Tobler, building and brewing in Texas, wants to know about mash level controllers that don't include parts from toilets. I use a conductivity based level control/relay (Warrick series 27) to cycle my sparge water feed pump on and off. The good news - this thing is dirt simple and uses pieces of copper pipe for the high and low level probes so you have no moving parts. Bad news - a new one will cost you ~$250. Of course you may not need need one rated for hazardous locations but that was the model I was able to find for free on some junk equipment. I set the high/low probes about 1-inch apart and the pump kicks on when the level drops below the low probe and shuts off when the high level probe is reached (latching relay). I use a second controller and probe assembly in the hot liquor tank to limit the volume of sparge water transferred to the mash to about 9 gallons. A third controller/probe assembly and irrigation valve is used to as an auto-shut-off for the hot liquor tank cold water supply to keep from flooding it when I turn my back. A fourth controller will eventually be wired up to trigger a high level or low level alarm somewhere. These gadgets are sweet for brewery automation. Anyone want to trade for draft shanks and faucets? Here's a link for basic info.... Don Tampa, FL (basically way south on I-75 from Jeff) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:31:29 -0400 From: Don Price <dprice1 at tampabay.rr.com> Subject: re: mash level control - pump based - missing link Doh! http://www.gemssensors.com/SpecTemplatePNB.asp?nProductGroupID=197 Don Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:50:51 -0400 From: "Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig at usa.dupont.com> Subject: Theakson Old Peculiar Yeast In reviewing Ray Daniels (Designing Great Beers) he references Michael Jackson (Companion) as stating that Theakson brews Old Peculiar using two yeasts. I don't have MJ's book (yet). I'm looking for a yeast recommendation for an Old Peculiar Clone I'm planning to brew. Thanks >>Jay This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. Francais Deutsch Italiano Espanol Portugues Japanese Chinese Korean http://www.DuPont.com/corp/email_disclaimer.html Return to table of contents
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