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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: float valve ("Mike")
  high Alcohol Beers ("Dave Burley")
  mash pH (Marc Sedam)
  smoking malt (Alan McKay)
  Re: Starch Haze, part III (Marc Sedam)
  Re: Theakson Old Peculiar Yeast ("Bill Riel")
  Fw: First Wort Hopping ("Chad Stevens")
  OT: re: The Definitive History of Rennerian Coordinates (Banks Nathaniel SSgt 332EFS/SANDY)
  Homebrewing on Fine Living Network ("Paul Gatza")
  Starch haze.... (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51 at ICCNET.COM>
  FWH (David Perez)
  Subject: re: Extremely high ABV (G C)
  Cheapest Beer that is Non-screwtop? (Ryan Neily)
  quick disconnects ("Patrick Hughes")


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Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 08:52:05 -0700
From: "Mike" <Mike at Bronosky.com>
Subject: Re: float valve

>> Go to www.grainger.com and enter "float valve" as the product search
>> key.  There are a number of items available, and at least some of them
are
>> quite inexpensive.

>just be aware that many inexpensive float valves have galvanized parts on
>them.  I bought one from grainger for a chicken feeder and I know it had a
>galvanized steel float arm.

>I am pretty sure your never supposed to use galvanized metals in brewing.

Don't know where you got your info from but a year or so ago the company I
work for had a rep from a galvanizing company in Cincinnati give a
presentation on the subject. He stated "galvanize is food grade". Galvanize
is just a zinc coating on metal. Zinc is a necessary nutrient.

Mike




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Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 09:57:25 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: high Alcohol Beers

Brewsters:

One corrrespondent asks why would anyone want to make high alcohol beers in
the 20+% range.

There was an article in theWall Street Journal early this week, last week ? on
the subject of "vintage" beers which are kept in casks and aged.  I had
planned to write it up for the HBD but my fastidious wife ( thank goodness,
normally) discarded it.

These beers take on the character of wines in the sense that they cost a lot
and get passed around and bid up, like fine wines. Jim Koch has one and a few
others were mentioned.

No discussion on how these were made, but as far as I know 18% is about the
max with yeast, even S. bayanus.  Perhaps these were fortified? Maybe direct
fermentation with coddling and yeast nutrients and temp control??

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 10:04:21 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: mash pH

This subject pops up a couple of times a year and it's always a good 
refresher.  Check the archives for AJ DeLange's posts on the subject if 
you really need all the details.  I love the details.  But a couple of 
short-cut points...

1)  Know where you are so you know where you're going.  Without knowing 
the initial pH of your tap water, it will be difficult knowing how much 
acid to add to get the drop you're looking for.  Once you know that, you 
should add the same amount of acid to your brewing water every time. 
 When I used to do this (I don't anymore) I would calculate how much 
TOTAL water I'd need for a batch of beer and adjust it all at once.

2)  Trust the mash.  Just the process of mashing in will drop the pH of 
the total mixture.  The pH can drop significantly.  For example, my tap 
water is pH 8.2 coming out of the faucet but is extremely soft with 
little buffering capacity.  The mash will settle in around pH 5.7 once 
it's thoroughly mixed.  If you have hard or temporarily hard water, the 
drop may not be this large.  If your mash has lots of specialty/roasted 
malts the pH drop will be greater.  I had an imperial stout recipe drop 
the mash pH to 5.2.  Mash pH will drop throughout the mash, so even if 
it doesn't START at the right pH it may end up there.  

3)  Addition of mineral salts will effect mash pH.  Adding carbonate in 
the form of chalk will add buffering capacity to your mash, making it 
harder to drop the pH to the appropriate range.  My suggestion is to 
never add chalk in brewing, but others do it.  Maybe it's OK in a porter 
or stout with huge amounts of roasted malts, but I still say it's not 
necessary.

4)  Finally, the pH you were told to shoot for is a little low.  The 
*range* of appropriate mash pH (from DeClerck) is pH 5.2-5.5.  If you're 
aiming for the low end of the range and overshoot, the mash pH will be 
too low for quick conversions.  Practically speaking it's not a big 
deal, but it may take you longer to convert the mash.  YMMV.

Cheerios.
Marc

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Fri,  2 May 2003 10:22:45 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: smoking malt


folks,

I'm going to be buying a real Texan smoker (http://www.nbsmoker.com/)
and want to try my hand at smoking my own malt (along with briskets,
chickens, etc, etc)

Does anyone out there have experience with this and can give
me some tips?

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site (tm)


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Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 10:32:22 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Starch Haze, part III

Hey Steven,

The beer is subject to spoilage either way, that's true.  It's one of 
the reasons why beers "go bad."

Regular "unfermentables" in the mash are unavailable to yeast, 
obviously.  But the reason polysaccharides can be unfermentable often 
has to do with their size or the physical form that they take.  The one 
thing I didn't talk about was the natural form of starch.

Amylose and amylopectin aren't hanging out freely in the kernels of 
cereal grains.  They are actually physically constrained in the form of 
a "granule."  So all of the amylose and amylopectin are balled up into a 
tight little package.  In order to use the starch in brewing you have to 
destroy the granule to get all of the polysaccharide chains out in 
solution.  This is done by heating, mixing, or dropping the pH.  In 
brewing, the regular mash pH and temperatures are enough to gelatinize 
barley and wheat starch.  

This doesn't mean that the starch COULDN'T be fermented over time, just 
that the process is slower than the traditional brewing mash.  In a bit 
of serendipity, a scientist in the company I worked for many moons ago 
was one of the first people to prove that pure beta-amylase could digest 
an ungelatinized starch granule.  If you looked at it under a microscope 
you could see little "pinholes" in the granule.  This is in the presence 
of water, of course.

Recall that yeast don't have alpha and beta amylase to break down 
polysaccharides.  That's all done by enzymes in the mash.  When you boil 
the wort you destroy the activity of any mash enzymes.  Some people call 
this "setting" the wort since whatever is in the wort when you chill it 
is what the yeast gets a crack at.  No further breakdown of the starch 
occurs.

If starch granules not gelatinized in the mash sits in water (or wort or 
beer) over time it will begin to soften.  In fact, you will also 
solubilize a bit of short-chain amylose that will go right into 
solution.  But more to the point, the microbes in the cooled wort DO 
have enzymes still active and able to break down starch granules or 
poysaccharides into simple sugars.  They can digest starch where the 
yeast cannot.  They could also create, through the digestion of the 
starch in your final product, simple sugars (specifically glucose and 
maltose) which the yeast CAN ferment.  Maybe the yeast gets this...maybe 
the other microbes will.  Either way it gets fermented and you have a 
gusher or byproducts of microbial fermentation which are nasty and 
unpalatable.  

But even with all this said and in the best of worlds, your beer is 
likely to spoil if you give it enough time.  Good brewing practices, 
including making sure there's no starch haze, can put spoilage off long 
enough for it to not be a real issue.  I was reading an article in the 
Ale Street News talking about witbiers, which focused on the Belgian 
brewers' perspective that these beers were meant to be drunk fresh and 
lose a lot of their character when aged for a long period of time.  Not 
inconsistent with what we've been discussing.

Hope this helps.
Marc

Sven Pfitt wrote:

> Mark,
>
> I follow what you said in your post to the BHD, but I am still confused.
>
> Why does it matter if the starch remaining in the finished beer is 
> normal residual unfermentables or starch that causes haze?
>
> It would seem to me that there is remaining starch in the beer once it 
> is finished fermenting irragardless of whether one has starch haze or 
> not. Therefore the beer is subject to spoilage either way.
>
> What have I missed?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
> Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian
>
> "There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 
> 1968
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*  
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
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- -- 

Marc Sedam
Associate Director
Office of Technology Development
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105
Chapel Hill, NC  27599-4105

919.966.3929  (phone)
919.962.0646  (fax)
OTD site :  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd
Monthly Seminar Info:  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd/seminar/






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Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 08:37:50 -0700
From: "Bill Riel" <up883 at victoria.tc.ca>
Subject: Re: Theakson Old Peculiar Yeast

Dan Listermann recommends Muntons Gold for OP:

>I developed a kit to brew this beer based on Wheeler's book and, if I may
>say so myself, back to back tasting showed that it is real close.  While the
>yeast may not have cool numbers in its name, require days of preplanning
>with sterile things or cost a lot, I found that Muntion's Gold does a great
>job.  I can't recommend it enough.

Several years ago, I was on a quest to clone OP. I roughly followed
Wheeler, plus took some adice to heart from the UK homebrew digest.

I've tried Wyeast 1084, 1318, and, Munton's Gold.

In side-by-side tastings, the Munton's wound up tasting remarkably
close to the real thing. I also wouldn't hesitate to recommend it. 

Incidently though, the beer I *liked* the best used the 1318 - but the
Muntons was closer to the real McCoy.

Bill



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Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 09:17:32 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: Fw: First Wort Hopping


- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: Chad Stevens
To: post@hbd.org
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 8:36 AM
Subject: re: First Wort Hopping


Chad Stevens zuvaruvi at cox.net
Subject: re: First Wort Hopping

>Perhaps there is some weird
>kind of protein/hop reaction that locks in flavor.

Steve responds: Just the oils and oxygen.

I have to disagree.  Albumin, one of the four major protein fractions
present in grain, is water soluble and coagulates upon heating forming a
majority of the hot break.  Albumin is known to bind flavinoids.  Albumin is
hydrolyzed to peptides and amino acids by proteolytic enzymes during malting
and in the mash; as a result much less native albumin survives to the wort
than is present in the mash.    Of the protein found in wort 43% is
preformed in the barley, 32% is solubilized during malting, and 25% is
released on mashing (Berne L. Jones, 1999, Malt Endoproteinases and How They
Affect Wort Soluble Protein Levels, 9th Australian Barley Tech. Symposium).

So long story short, there is quite a bit of native albumin at mash-in, less
at sparge, and virtually none upon boil.  Further, albumin binds flavinoids
and this complex appears to survive the boil.  This binding will occur in
mash hopping.  It will also occur during first wort hopping because the
remaining native albumin has yet to drop out of solution as a result of
coagulation.  The effect at first wort should be less robust than in the
mash however because less native albumin has survived to the wort than was
present in the mash.  Albumin/flavinoid binding is virtually non-existent
once vigorous boil has commenced because of albumin coagulation.

So if it's flavor you're after, I'd recommend as much hop exposure as early
as possible in your beer making process.

My .02 cents worth.

Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego, CA



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Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:28:35 -0000 
From: Banks Nathaniel SSgt 332EFS/SANDY <Nathaniel.Banas at jaber.af.mil>
Subject: OT: re: The Definitive History of Rennerian Coordinates

I seem to remember a friendly competition to see who was the farthest away
from the center of the hombrew universe.  So, can anyone out there beat
[6627.8, 41.1] Apparent Rennerian? ;)

Obligitary On-Topic:
Anybody have any experience with Pico Brewing Systems Femto-Brewing system?
I'm thinking of trying my hand at all grain brewing when I get back to being
a mere [24.1, 13.6] Apparent Rennerian, and wondered if it was a worthwhile
investment.

Nathaniel Banks





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Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 10:57:07 -0600
From: "Paul Gatza" <paul at aob.org>
Subject: Homebrewing on Fine Living Network

Hi everyone. I hope you all have/had an enjoyable National Homebrew Day.
Here is an update on a project we have been working on to generate some
publicity for homebrewing.

The Fine Living Channel
Series Title:  Back to Basics
Show Title:  Family Library/Home Brewing/African Dance

(I suspect that each piece is independent, although we often combine the
three activities all at once up in Sunshine, CO.)

Date and Time:
Sun             5/4/2003          6:30 PM
Mon             5/5/2003          2:00 AM
Tue             5/6/2003          11:30 AM
Wed             5/7/2003          9:30 PM  & 12:30 AM
Thu             5/8/2003          9:00AM
Fri             5/9/2003          5:00PM
Sat             5/10/2003         7:30 PM

The filming was done last winter at Dave Welker's house and features Dave
Welker, longtime homebrewer and former National Homebrew Competition
director, and Jessica Gottlob and Charlie Papazian of the Association of
Brewers.

Paul Gatza
Director--American Homebrewers Association
Director--Institute for Brewing Studies
Association of Brewers
736 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO 80302

Join us in New Orleans for the Craft Brewers Conference and BrewExpo
America, May 7-10, 2003!
ph: +1.303.447.0816 ext. 122
fax: +1.303.447.2825
www.beertown.org



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Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 12:49:23 -0500 
From: "Smith, Brian (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51 at ICCNET.COM>
Subject: Starch haze....

Excuse me Dr. Sedam....

Will this be on the test?

Should I be taking notes?

Could we have class outside today?

Just kidding, good info in there. (especially for those of us with degrees
in Biology...like me.)

Brian Smith
Inland Paperboard and Packaging
Bogalusa Mill



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Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 14:21:49 -0400
From: David Perez <perez at gator.net>
Subject: FWH

Just a quick return to the FWH thread please. Do you fire the kettle as 
the sparge enters or do you add the heat after the the full wort level 
is achieved? Also, Dave are you thinking that FWH will work with higher 
 IBU beers such as IPA's?

Dave Perez
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL




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Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 12:58:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: G C <gsd4lyf at yahoo.com>
Subject: Subject: re: Extremely high ABV

Steve says,

>Many brewing yeast will handle 15% abv if you treat
>them real nice but you'll probably need to select a
>particularly sturdy variety and treat it well. Maybe
>finish w/ champagne yeast.  My question is - why do  
>you want to do this ?

I'm curious about the process and would like to
experiment one day if this is something that's
feasible on the homebrew level. I think it would be 
quite a challenge to produce a *good* high abv beer.
Which strains are known for being particularly sturdy?


>Successive feedings and sufficient pitching &
>repitching are the methods. Read about Sam Adam's
>Millenium (~20% ABV I think)on their website - they
>seem to have started this trend.  

The SA site doesn't offer much. It just says they
started with a strong, regular beer, used two yeasts
(one slow and one fast), and fed it maple syrup until
it quit. It spent three weeks in primary, then was
aged in used bourbon barrels.   

>Start with a fairly conventional gravity wort and
>just keep adding concentrated extract along with
>repitchings. You'll need truly massive amounts of   
>high quality pitching yeast.

How massive? Massive as in requiring specialized
equipment and special yeast propagation techniques?
How does one determine a reasonable extract
concentration, how often to add it, and how much yeast
to add with the repitchings?    

>Personally I'm not a huge fan of hi-alc fermentation
>beers. Many are plagued with offensive fusels, oddly
>strong esters and unfermented excessively sweet
>sugars.  There are exceptions, but beer fermentation
>above 9%ABV is often a formula for odd tasting
>results.

That's been my general perception as well; they don't
taste like beer should. However, lately I've read some
reviews for a couple high ABV Imperial Stouts by some
experienced tasters, and I've been surprised at the
marks the beers received. There were little to no
mentions of offensive off-flavors, just some mentions
of excessive sweetness. The 18% abv stout did receive
higher marks than the current year's 23% version. 

>I have tasted several beers well above this level
>made with the eisbock process, and some of these were
>quite excellent - smooth and malty without the
>stressed fermentation flavors.
>-Steve

I personally haven't tasted the beers I mentioned, but
from what little I know about the brewer that produces
them, I suspect they may also be exceptions. If I 
ever manage to get a hold of a bottle, I'll find out
for myself. 

Guy  
Los Gatos, CA 





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Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 19:14:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ryan Neily <ryan at neily.net>
Subject: Cheapest Beer that is Non-screwtop?


Looks like I exausted my local options for non-scretop beer bottles for
homebrew.  My next step is to start buying beer and offering it at parties
and to neighbors to comsume so that I can keep the bottles...

So, whats the cheapest bottled beer that comes in non-screwtop amber
bottles?  Could it be Amstel light? :)

- -- 
Ryan Neily
ryan at neily.net

Random Quote:
"The Jeep is the only true American sportscar... - Enzo Ferrari"


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Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 22:14:46 -0500
From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
Subject: quick disconnects

    In HBD #4231 Michael mentions that he learned that plastic quick
disconnects will clog. If you drill out the crosshairs in the disconnects
they won't clog. The cross hairs are unnecessary if your using the straight
thru type. The shutoff type are way too constricting for brewing anyway IMO.
Patrick




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