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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Samuel Smith's Nut Brown Ale recipe (KCSTAR21)
  high alcohol beer (ensmingr)
  Re: The Definitive History of Rennerian Coordinates (Llew J v Rensburg)
  re: smoking malt (Ed Jones)
  couple HERMS questions ("Patrick Hughes")
  RE: FWH ("Doug Hurst")
  Faux decoction (Brian Lundeen)
  Re: starch haze, continued...and very long ("-S")
  Re: FWH (Jeff Renner)


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Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 00:41:39 -0400
From: KCSTAR21 at aol.com
Subject: Samuel Smith's Nut Brown Ale recipe

Hi,

 Just wondering if someone would be 
kind enough to post the Sammy Smith Nut Brown Ale 
clone recipe from the book "Beer Captured".

thanks!
Kevin




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Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 01:35:28 -0400
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: high alcohol beer

FYI, Sam Adams made a "Millennium Ale" which clocked in at 24% 
ABV and $100+ per bottle. Ouch! Never had one.

Dogfish Head made "World Wide Stout" which clocked in at 23% ABV 
and ~$5 per bottle. I had one and enjoyed it. Definitely a 
sipping beer and not one to be sipped every day (at least for me).

I'm fermenting my own ~20% ABV beer right now. '-S' asks "why do 
you want to do this?" Why not? Already made the smoked potato(e) 
beer, the wasabi beer, and the vanilla stout.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
http://hbd.org/ensmingr



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Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 08:19:47 +0200
From: Llew J v Rensburg <llew at luco.co.za>
Subject: Re: The Definitive History of Rennerian Coordinates

Nathaniel asked:

> I seem to remember a friendly competition to see who was the farthest away
> from the center of the hombrew universe.  So, can anyone out there beat
> [6627.8, 41.1] Apparent Rennerian? ;)

If my calculations are right, I beat you by a few miles!

Llew
Johannesburg, South Africa
www.luco.co.za/llewsbrewery
[8484.6, 96.8] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 04:12:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ed Jones <cuisinartoh at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: smoking malt

Alan, first off welcome to the world of good homemade BBQ AND homemade
beer. Since I care about good BBQ, I thought it would be appropriate to
add a little advice about the smoker itself, rather than tips about
smoking malt. If you do some research on two websites: 
http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/ and http://www.thebbqforum.com/ you
won't find many, if any, recommendations for that New Braunfels smoker.
The thickness of the steel is just too thin for good heat retention and
temperature stability. Also, it 'leaks' air like a sieve which also
makes it tough to maintain the steady temperatures needed for long,
slow cooking. For a rock-solid smoker that doesn't require constant
attention like a cheap offset smoker, please check out the Weber Smokey
Mountain (WSM). They burn for many hours w/o attention once you get a
little used to them. Go to  http://www.weber.com under charcoal grills
to see a pic.

If you *really* want an offset grill, try looking at the real offsets
made in Texas like Klose Grills, etc. They are made from 1/4" steel and
hold the temps well. They will also cost you a lot of money. That's why
the WSM is such a good value. It holds it's temps well, but will only
set you back about $200. You can buy it amazon if you can't find it
locally:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004U9VA/thevirtualweberb

Man, lemme tell ya, if you think getting your freeloading buddies to
leave when you have good homebrew, just try to extricate them from your
house when you serve them a slab of homemade back ribs.

Good luck!


=====
Ed Jones - Columbus, Ohio U.S.A - [163.8, 159.4] [B, D] Rennerian

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



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Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 09:58:51 -0500
From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
Subject: couple HERMS questions

In HBD 4230 Val asks,
Question 1-What is the best size and length of copper
tubing to use in a HERMS?

I use a coil made from 1/2" copper , 11  - 10.5"o.d.  coils which just fit
into a 10 gal Polarware pot which is the HLT. The HLT is too small but it
was all I had. I direct heat the HLT with propane. with 15deg. difference
between HLT and mash tun I can ramp up very fast.

Question 2-Can a HERMS be used,efficiently,for multiple step mashes by
using the temp control on the heat ex-changer and recirculating constantly?

That is what its purpose in life is, in my opinion. Mine is probably
extremely inefficient as an ethanol fuel producer, but is only modestly
inefficient as a water/wort heater. I have used mine to do step mashes
starting at 122* and ending at 170*. My "controls" are 2 - stainless ball
valves , one for the coil, and one to bypass. I  usually recirculate
constantly and use the bypass seldomly, by keeping the temp diff. close.This
works fine for me. When I brew I dedicate the day to it and don't mind
monitoring temps during the mash. The other advantage to this is when you
come to the HBD posts on PID controllers you can confidently skip right over
them without having to read them. I do not apply any direct heat to the tun,
I also insulate my tun and find minimal temp diff. in the mash bed itself. I
have tried many times to find this terrible differential in the mash that I
have heard so much about but mine at worst is only 1*. There is really not
that much monitoring once you learn your system. This  system is making beer
for me and I enjoy working on it in attempts to improve it also.
Patrick
Litchfield, OH




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Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 14:45:22 -0500
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: RE: FWH


Dave Perez asked:  "Do you fire the kettle as the sparge enters or do
you add the heat after the the full wort level is achieved?"

I start my burner as soon as there's about a quart of wort in the brew
kettle.  At the rate my wort flows into the kettle, it starts boiling
about 10 minutes after I'm done sparging.  The complete sparge takes
25-30 minutes.  I use this procedure whether I'm First Wort Hopping or
not.

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL




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Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 09:57:20 -0500 
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Faux decoction

This month's Zymurgy article on Pilsner brewing makes mention of an
alternate approach to decoction mashing. The author writes (and where's a
good OCR package when you really need it):

Another promising decoction technique rarely discussed is the so-called
Schmitz process. It is essentially a step mash followed by a single
decoction of 100% of the grist. Instead of pulling out portions of the mash
for decoction in a separate vessel, the Schmitz process removes a portion of
the mash liquid (along with its enzymes) shortly after mash in. After starch
conversion, the entire mash is boiled for 10 minutes, then cooled to
slightly above high saccharificaton temperature. At this point the liquid
drawn off early in the process can safely be added back into the mash to
convert any remaining starches. This technique offers many of the benefits
of conventional decoction mashing, but is quite a bit quicker and a lot less
messy.

Back to me: Sounds interesting, and also a little scary. Comments and
details from the experts in here would be greatly welcome.

Cheers
Brian in Winnipeg (coordinates not on this system, but definitely north and
west of the COTHBU)



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Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 20:53:49 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: starch haze, continued...and very long

Marc Sedam just posted a terrific note on starch and polysaccharides.   I'd
really like to collaborate with Marc to develop that chapter for the
'HBrewing Science 501' book that rumbles through my imagination every now
and then.

Anyway in that chapter we'd certainly discuss that glucose polymers can
contain 1-2, 1-3, 1-4 and 1-6 links.   A pair of 1-4 linked glucose's is
called maltose, as Marc mentioned. The 1-4 links repeated create amylose,
while if you throw in a few 1-6 links to create branch points (a glucose
which is attached to at both it's 4 and 6 carbons, forming 1-4 and 1-6
links) then we get branched amylopectin.    For barley and most grains the
mix is about 20% amylose and 80% amylopectin, and amylopectin has about 5%
branch point.   Some odd grains exist or have been bred which have almost
all amylose or else all amylopectin..

Since it came up and is seldom explained ... .there are two possible
configurations for these sugar-sugar links.    These are called alpha- and
beta- and they are related to the arrangements on hydrogens on the linked
carbons.   Maltose is alpha-1-4' linked glucose.  The beta-1-4 linked
version is called cellobiose.   Long chains of beta-1-4 linked glucose are
called cellulose and this polymer appears in the barley husk and in many
other biological systems.  Generally beta-linked saccharides are structural
elements and only a secondary energy store, while alpha linked starch is
only an energy store.    There are alpha and beta linkages amongst all the
polysaccharides, but amylose, and amylopectin (which is NOT a real pectin
BTW) are entirely  made up of alpha linked glucose.

Since Marc mentioned gums .... gums are the fraction of the non-starch
carbohydrate which is soluble in hot water.   The term is often applied to
polysaccharides which consist of pentosan sugars (those with 5 carbons -
arabinose and xylose primarily) which have complex linkages and include
significant amounts of beta links.   The other category are beta-glucans -
that is beta linked glucose (and to a minor extent galactose, and mannose).
Beta-glucans are primarily
1-3 and 1-4 beta linked glucose.  beta-glucans entirely made of beta-1-3
links is called 'laminarin' and has a peculiar viscous texture in solution.
There is an enzyme, beta-glucanase, which is produced during malting and
this enzyme can break beta-1-4 links of beta-glucans.   Some laminarase
enzyme is available to break beta-1-3 links as well.   Together these
b-glucans busting steps are not particularly strong compared to the
degradation of starch in the mash.

One other odd factoid about starch haze: amylose will form a colloidal
suspension in water while amylopectin will not - it sediments eventually.

But the topic was starch - and the bugs who love it.

As Marc said yeast can handle fructose, glucose, maltose and maltotriose.
A few rare S.c. yeasts used in distilling or genetically modified ones can
tackle maltotetraose (with 4 alpha-1-4 linked glucose units) as can
S.diastaticus.    Marc notes that the common alpha-1-6 links in amylopectin
are hardly touched by mashing and fermentation and these residues remain as
'limit dextrins'. So brewing yeast can't generally handle alpha-1-4 linked
glucose beyond M3(maltotriose), nor can they digest 1-6 linked sugars, like
isomaltose and limit dextrin.   Yeast can't handle any of the beta-linked
polysaccharides like cellobiose.   Yeast do handle some oddball saccharides.
Sucrose (alpha 1-2 linked glucose&fructose).   Lager yeast are reknown for
their distinguished ability to ferment melibiose (which is a glucose and
galactose w/ alpha-1-6 -o-glucosyl bonds).  This is sort of a party trick
which lager yeast use to impress the ale yeasts - there is a bit of
melibiose in barley but virtually none in malt or wort - doesn't matter in
brewing.

A lot of bacteria can deal with amylose and/or amylopectin.    Here is a
link to an abstract about human colonic bacteria than can deal with these.
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/65/11/4848
It states ... "Bifidobacterium spp., Bacteroides spp., Fusobacterium spp.,
and strains of Eubacterium, Clostridium, Streptococcus, and
Propionibacterium could hydrolyze the gelatinized amylopectin" ..."only
Bifidobacterium spp. and Clostridium butyricum could efficiently utilize
high-amylose maize starch".

There are many reports of specific Lactobacillus consuming starch ...
J Appl Microbiol 2001 Apr;90(4):508-16
Nahrung 1996 Feb;40(1):45-6
J Appl Bacteriol 1995 Nov;79(5):499-505
This last article measures intracellular glucoamylase production by a
particular Lactobaccillus strain.   Glucoamylase (EC 3.2.1.3) is described
as  "Most forms of the enzyme can rapidly hydrolyze 1,6-alpha-D-glucosidic
bonds when the next bond in sequence is 1,4, and some preparations of this
enzyme hydrolyze 1,6- and 1,3-alpha-D-glucosidic bonds in other
polysaccharides".   Another dextrin busting enzyme, isoamylase(EC 3.2.1.68)
is found in Bacillus subtilis, Pseudomonas amyloderamosa, Lipomyces
kononenkoae and Cytophaga species.

Of course yeast can be modified ... Biotechnol Appl Biochem 2000 Feb;31 ( Pt
1):55-9 ... shows Taiwanese researched adding bacterial amylase genes to
S.cerevisiae and the resulting yeast "could assimilate starch more
efficiently than the recipient strain with a conversion rate of greater than
95%".

Some of the starch eating Clostridia are also butyric acid producers which
may answer a question from last week.

Many molds care apable of producing consuming starch.   Aspergillus sp. are
well known in this regard breaking 1-4 and 1-6 alpha links.  Koji used in
sake 'brewing' is another.   The dark blue stuff that inhabits my kitchen is
yet another.

Anyway it's far far from an encyclopedic list, but a lot of bacteria and
fungi can consume starch.   I wouldn't know where to begin in assembling a
serious listing of these.   For a lot of great basic info on bacteria and
molds I'd suggest 'Biology of Microorganisms' by T.Brooks et al,
Prentice-Hall.  This book is on it's 7th or 8th edition- all the editions
are great undergrad texts, and can answer a bunch of HBrewer type
questions - can often be found at discount, resale, 1/2-price book shops for
a few bucks.

 -S




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Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 21:41:24 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: FWH

Dave Perez <perez at gator.net> writes from Gainesville, FL:

>Just a quick return to the FWH thread please. Do you fire the kettle as
>the sparge enters or do you add the heat after the the full wort level
>is achieved?

I keep the burner going to keep the wort temperature between 
160-180F, since that is about the runoff temperature of a big 
brewery's runoff.  They wouldn't have to keep heat on since there 
would be less surface area per volume to lose heat.

>Also, Dave are you thinking that FWH will work with higher
>  IBU beers such as IPA's?

I'm not Dave but will respond that I think it certainly should work fine.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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