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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: OT the definative history of Rennerian co-ordinates (Cronos)
  The poor vanilla bean (David Perez)
  high alc and veg beers (Michael Hartsock)
  RE: Starch - the big (evil) picture ("LeCuyer, Brian")
  Re: Harshness and water chemistry ("Martin Brungard")
  Use of Honeysuckle (Michael Hartsock)
  RE: mash pH (Brian Lundeen)
  WhiteLabs Saison, and multiple yeast fermentations ("John Misrahi")
  Propane Adapters and Hop Stringing ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  steinbier-- basalt rocks ("Jon & Megan Sandlin")
  Triangle Test Results ("pddey")
  newer american lager hops ("Joseph Gerteis")
  World's scariest story ("Davison, Patrick")
  Mash hopping and hop flavor retention? (Mark Beck)
  German Beer Faucets (Rick)
  Aluminum and Alzheimer's ("Martin Brungard")
  Fw: First Wort Hopping ("Chad Stevens")
  St Pats Counterflow Chiller problems?? (FRASERJ)


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Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:14:04 +0930
From: Cronos <rcb at sendmenospam.com>
Subject: Re: OT the definative history of Rennerian co-ordinates

On Tue, 6 May 2003 00:10:06 -0400, in rec.crafts.brewing Grant wrote:

>Nathaniel wrote
>>So, can anyone out there beat
>>[6627.8, 41.1] Apparent Rennerian? ;)
>
>Then Llew wrote
>>If my calculations are right, I beat you by a few miles!
>>Llew
>>Johannesburg, South Africa
>www.luco.co.za/llewsbrewery
>[8484.6, 96.8] Apparent Rennerian
> 
>Grant  Stott
>[9906, 260] AR (statute miles) or [15942.2, 260] AR [Km]
> (Geelong, Victoria, Australia)

Got you all so far:
[10111, 268.4] AR (statute miles) or [16272, 268.4] AR (Km)
 (Just North of Adelaide, SA, Australia)

Cronos
- -- 
It's not that good help is hard to find, it's just that bad help
is so hard to get rid of.
- --



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Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:37:15 -0400
From: David Perez <perez at gator.net>
Subject: The poor vanilla bean

Steve,

Don't dis Vanilla Stouts offhand. We had a spectacular example, made by 
Curt Hausam, that won the AHA Fruit, Spice and Veggie Competition in 
December. A truly well crafted beer!

Dave Perez
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL




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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 06:10:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: high alc and veg beers

Hey now... I've made a Jalapeno pepper beer and it
tastes damn good.  

I'm not sure about sweet potato... but there might be
room for a pumpkin and some all spice this october!

mike

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 08:28:56 -0500
From: "LeCuyer, Brian" <blecuyer at rvwinc.com>
Subject: RE: Starch - the big (evil) picture

Who is this Jeff Renner and all his talk of evil-ution?  Blasphemy, I say!
Everyone knows that the one and only Beer God created all these things just
as they are.  What's next?  Claims of monkeys making beer in the ancient
forest?

We need to rise up!  Shout these Rennerism ideas down!  We need a kangaroo
court, tar and feathers, a good screenwriter.

To arms ... to arms!!

Brian
Columbus, NE
(698.7, 269.7) from the very Gates of Hell


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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 09:28:57 -0400
From: "Martin Brungard" <Martin.Brungard at trow.com>
Subject: Re: Harshness and water chemistry

Michael wrote about problems he is experiencing with harshness and
astringency.  He thinks he has the astringency licked through the appropriate
use of acid to reduce alkalinity. But, the harshness still plagues his beers.


Michael did provide one important bit of information that he has a little
concern about, his water softener.  He figures that all he is doing is
replacing Ca and Mg ions with Na.  

I have found several resources that indicate that high sodium concentration
in conjunction with sulfate can create a harshness in beer flavor perception.
The quoted sulfate concentration for Michael's water is not excessive, but I
figure he may be adding either gypsum or epsom for some of those beers he
makes.  The combination of elevated sodium with any increase in sulfate may
be adding that harshness perception. It is possible that the sodium levels
are so high that even this minor sulfate concentration is adding to the
harshness perception. 

I'm not sure what the sodium concentration is coming out of these ion
exchange softeners, but it can't be good.  My understanding is that brewing
waters should never have more than 150 ppm sodium and that the sodium level
should be reduced substantially as sulfate concentrations increase.  Most
good brewing waters have less than 50 ppm sodium.  

Michael didn't mention what the raw water concentrations were at his
location.  He may find that his un-softened water produces much better
brewing results.  Hard water is not a detriment to making most beer styles.
Water with total hardness in the 250 ppm range can still decently make a lot
a styles.  Many brewing water criteria routinely call for calcium and
magnesium additions that bring the hardness to this level or above.   

Avoiding ion exchange water softeners is frequently mentioned on HBD.
Harshness, as witnessed by Michael, is just one reason to avoid them.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL 


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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 06:48:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Use of Honeysuckle

Will summer on the way, I'm thinking of ways to accent
my favorite wheat recipe.  Has anyone used honeysuckle
blossoms in brewing?  If so, was it used in the boil,
as a finishing herb, or as a dry herb?  Any sort of
beer in particuliar that it was good in?

Mike
Columbia, MO

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 10:21:05 -0500 
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: mash pH

Dave Burley writes:
 
> The pH of the mash is measured at room temperature even 
> though the mash itself is hot.. your mash pH guidelines wil be 
> different as pH changes ( falls)  with temperature by around 
> 0.2 units in this range, as I recall..

The Brewer Formerly Known as Steve Alexander, but who now goes by the
unpronounceable symbol -S, sent me a wonderfully written treatise on mash pH
and temperature correction some time back. I will reference a snippet from
that:

M&BS, pp279 (and this is covered in AJ's paper) states that the pH of the
mash at "65C will be about 0.35 unit less than at 18C".  M&BS would of
course be referring to properly temperature compensated readings (which we
had to do by hand back then in the late 1970s & 80s when M&BS was written).
They go on to say "An infusion mash is best carried out at pH 5.2-5.4.
Consequently the pH in the cooled wort will be 5.5-5.8".

IOW, don't look for the classic recommended range when you cool your wort
for the pH measurement. 

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 11:50:43 -0400
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: WhiteLabs Saison, and multiple yeast fermentations

Hi all,

On saturday, I attended a club Big Brew. I will leave out all the details,
but my team brewed a dubbel, at o.g. 1.074.

Arriving home I pitched my yeast, some wyeast abbey ale II slurry saved in a
mason jar from my friend's conical.

The next day there was no sign of life. I was a bit nervous because i am
used to very fast starts with so much yeast.

At the end of that day, I was very concerned and pitched a vial of the only
other belgian yeast I had, white labs saison. The white labs strain chart
said it was a good choice for a saison. Sounds strange but I didn't see any
other choice.

I came home to find the blowoff tube clogged with krausen, and when I
removed the bung there was an audible POP! I think I was this close to a
carboy bomb. I rapidly sanitized a bucket and poured the carboy in. It was
very late and I was very tired, but I figured the majority of the
fermentation was a head and would remove any oxidation worries.

To make a long story short, should this cause any problems? It's fermenting
very vigorously and is down to 1.022. The sample i took definetely tastes
more saison like .

The second question is, has anyone used a saison yeast for anything other
than a Saison? I have a wyeast saison yeast XL pack that I will use for
possibly a blackberry saison, but I am curious about what my dubbel will be
like ?

john

Montreal, Canada

 [892, 63] Apparent Rennerian (km)


"Actually John it uses a very complex algorithm to determine your average
time between "Generate" clicks, and from that can it figures out how drunk
you are, and what styles of beer you prefer.  Obviously, you prefer obscure
Belgians!" - Drew Avis

Seen on a tee shirt - "The internet is full. Go away!"





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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 08:50:43 -0700
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: Propane Adapters and Hop Stringing

Hi,
  Bought one of those cheap propane BBQs that run off the small, 
disposable canisters.  Does anyone know if there are adapters to allow
me 
to connect my large-threaded propane tank to the female connector on the

BBQ?  Any idea of where I could find one?  It seems like something a bit

more specialized than what the giant home improvement stores would
carry.

  Surprisingly, the hop I planted last year came back & I need to run
some 
line for it to grow up.  Do the vine bines need something to dig into
when 
growing, like twine or string?  I used so garden wire that's basically
the 
same as twist-ties you get with baggies.  It's slick plastic, so I don't

know if the vines will be able to hang on to it.

Thanks
Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA
[1978.7, 275.3] Apparent Rennerian

In Heaven there is no beer, that's why we drink it here,
And when we're gone from here, our friends will be drinking all the
beer.


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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 08:44:14 -0700
From: "Jon & Megan Sandlin" <sandlin at bendcable.com>
Subject: steinbier-- basalt rocks

What does the collective think about using basalt for the stones used in the
making of steinbier?  Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

Jon Sandlin
Bend, Oregon



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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 11:10:33 -0600
From: "pddey" <pddey at netzero.net>
Subject: Triangle Test Results

Brewers,

I posted a couple weeks ago looking for advice on conducting a triangle
test.  I received many useful replies, in particular from Frank Tutzauer,
Chris Ivey, and A.J. DeLange.  This past weekend, while our club brewed a
couple steam beers and participated in the AHA Big Brew  group toast, we
also ran a little 'spermint to see if we could distinguish beers all brewed
supposedly from the same recipe (a rather plain "red" ale brewed to a SG of
1.052 with the odd combination of  EKG and Cascade hops and fermented with 2
pkts Windsor dry yeast).  My suspician was that every one of the seven beers
would be distinguishable from every one of the other beers.  To make things
more interesting, I threw in a ringer - an amber ale I'd made with
Willamette and Chinook hops and fermented with Windsor yeast.

So we had 8 beers and 10 evaluator/judges/panelists.  There are 28 unique
combinations of the 8 beers (A X B, A X C, etc.) so each panelist evaluated
14 pairings resulting in an average of 5 replicates per beer pairing (most
beer combinations were sampled by 5 panelists but a couple pairings were
evaluated by 3,4,6,or 7 panelists).  The sampling was spread out in 2
flights of 7 pairings with the first flight presented in late morning and
the second flight in early afternoon.

Beers were brought to the event mostly in growlers but one was brought in a
keg and the host had bottled beer.  Approximately 1 oz of beer was served in
red plastic opaque cups to panelists seated in a different room, 2 or three
seated around a large table.  The particular combination of beers and order
of serving was determined by throwing dice - an eight sided die worked
nicely in selecting the beer combination.  As a club event, it was actually
plenty of fun taking turns throwing dice and serving beer and evaluating
(though I'd recommend making up a random distribution of beer combinations
and serving orders for each panelist before to save time!)

Before presenting the results, I'll say right off that we had a beer serving
temperature bias early on that we reduced by placing all the beers in a
water bath of approx 50F for the duration of the day.  The first couple of
panelists remarked that they could sense temperature differences in a couple
of the tests.  Although I don't think this completely nullified the trials,
next time I would take greater pains to eliminate this confounding factor.
Another tip for clubs or groups doing this:  it takes about one steward per
panelist to keep the beer coming, the cups rinsed and draining, and record
the results.  We simply all took turns.

Out of the 28 beer combinations, 16 significant (p<0.05) results were
recorded.  That is, panelists were able to correctly identify the odd beer
in a trio more often than we'd expect to occur by random.  Many times, 4 out
of 5 or 5 out of 5 panelists corrected identified the odd beer.  Using the
binomdist function in excel as described by AJ, I calculate a probability of
0.045 and 0.004 for each of these results.

The "ringer" beer was identified as different in 5 out of the 7 potential
pairings with other beers.  However, 2 other beers (labelled "F" and "G")
were identified as different in 6 out of 7 pairings so were even more
consistently noted as different than the very different recipe amber I
brought. Interestingly, "F" and "G" were not significantly different from
the same beer, "C", for whatever thats worth.  For two beers, panelists
relatively infrequently identified them as different from other beers (only
2 significant results for each of the 2 beers).

More statistical power (more panelists) would have been nice, I 'spose, but
I wanted to first ensure that all pairings were made.  Besides, with only a
few panelists, if a difference is detected I can feel confident that indeed
one likely exists.

I interpret the results to say that a few beers were consistently identified
as different while a couple beers are less likely to be distinguished.  At
our next club meeting folks will bring their brewing notes, their beers, and
we will discuss the results and why some of the differences may have
occurred.

In discussions afterwards, panelists most frequently noted differences in
sweetness among beers and also the character of the hop bitterness (harsh,
smooth, etc) in distinguishing the odd beer.

 -Paul
Cheyenne, WY




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Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:33:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Joseph Gerteis" <joseph540 at elvis.com>
Subject: newer american lager hops

Hello all,

A little while ago, there was a discussion of some hop
varieties and a call for better explanations of hop
aromas and flavor qualities.  Sterling in particular
came up.

I am hoping others can help to describe some of the
"newer" American grown varieties commonly used in
lagers that I don't have experience with, particularly
Liberty and Sterling, but any others as well.  I have
read a number of outlines of the characters, but I have
not found them very helpful.

(I have some experience with some of the American-grown
varieties commonly used in lagers -- esp. Mt. Hood and
Horizon.  The writeups I have seen on Perle have been
very good and descriptive.)

So -- what about it?  What are people's impressions of
these varieties?  What styles have they worked for or
not worked for?  Any head-to-head comparisons?

Best wishes,

Joe Gerteis
St. Paul MN

- -------------------------------------------------
Get your free  at Elvis e-mail account at Elvis.com!
http://www.elvis.com



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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 13:37:36 -0400 
From: "Davison, Patrick" <Davison at nsf.org>
Subject: World's scariest story

Being a SWMBO-proclaimed geek (among other things), I enjoyed Jeff Renner's
rambling in HBD #4238 on starches, proteins, and enzymes, and mourn the fact
that my high school science teachers could never so eloquently describe how
mind-numbing scientific facts and figures translate to something as tangible
(and wonderful) as making beer.

But then I got to the last paragraph:

"the antibiotic activity of the Penicillium mold is its way of elbowing
aside competing microorganisms who also want a piece of that rotting melon.
And while over the eons the bacteria it fought had not yet managed to evolve
an effective counter-measure against this, our use (and overuse) of it has
resulted in accelerated evolution by the bacteria so that many now are
unaffected."

Which got me to thinking...

>From a purely evolutional standpoint, is it possible that the plants we
exploit for brewing grains could someday grow wise to our ways, and, like
the strains of bacteria who laugh at the weak defenses of penicillin and
other antibiotics, develop new strains of malting- and mashing-resistant
barley to stop humans from exploiting their progeny into ales and lagers for
our enjoyment?  Do I have to give up making (and more importantly, drinking)
beer the same way doctors have to change their mode of perscribing
antibiotics to their sick patients to ensure future generations can enjoy
beer?

What is this world coming to?  Global warming is one thing, but man, this no
beer thing just ain't right?  What are we supposed to drink when the
UV-fortified sun is beating down upon us?

Hopefully, the scenario I describe is more science fiction than science.
I'll go back to cursing my public school education now (ironically, I nearly
spelled 'school' and 'education' incorrectly...).

Now back to your regular programming.

Pat Davison
Ferndale, MI (but working in Ann Arbor)







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Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 11:40:27 -0700
From: Mark Beck <beckmk at whitman.edu>
Subject: Mash hopping and hop flavor retention?

There's been a lot of discussion lately of Mash hopping and first wort 
hopping and how this practice allows the hop flavor to survive the 
boil.  My question is, do these practices also allow the hop flavor to 
survive longer in the bottle or the keg?

I've got an IPA in a keg right now that I dry hopped when I kegged, which 
was about 3 weeks ago. It had a wonderful hop flavor and aroma, but now 
that flavor is already starting to subside.  I'd like to avoid this.

I'm wondering if the same magic that allows the hop flavor to survive 
through the boil will also allow the flavor to survive longer after 
bottling.  Anyone have any data on this?

Thanks,

Mark
Walla Walla, WA





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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 12:05:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rick <ale_brewer at yahoo.com>
Subject: German Beer Faucets



I think I have finally found a source for the
authentic German compensator beer faucet I've always
wanted, but I have some questions before I get one.  

Does anyone know if these will fit the same shank as
used by US faucets?  Is the thread the same on both US
& European shanks?

Thanks in advance for any help!

Rick Seibt
Bierstein Brewery
Mentor, OH



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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:23:59 -0400
From: "Martin Brungard" <Martin.Brungard at trow.com>
Subject: Aluminum and Alzheimer's

I noticed this interesting news bit regarding aluminum and Alzheimer's.  The
following link provides the full article.  

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_12359.html

Interestingly, the article confirms that a certain form of aluminum appears
to be linked with Alzheimer's disease.  Only 'monomeric' aluminum appears to
be linked with the disease.  The good news is that aluminum cookware does not
produce the 'monomeric' aluminum form.  

More confirmation that aluminum pots are OK to brew with.  I guess I have to
go back to blaming my drooling on the beer.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL 


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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:12:16 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: Fw: First Wort Hopping

Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping

My offline reply to Steve:

> Steve,
>
> By no means was I suggesting your approach is not a significant, if not
THE
> primary, contributor of hop flavor with regard to FWH.  My only point, and
> you are correct, it was not appropriately fleshed out, I was trying to be
> brief, to totally dismiss some protein complex as a possible contributor
is
> a bit presumptive at this stage of the research game.  And yes, certainly,
> the vast majority of albumin complexes are going to drop out as hot break.
> I have seen it suggested however, that some protein/hop constituent
> complexes may survive the boil and contribute to flavor and the effect is
> more robust in the mash.  Regardless of the underlying mechanism, after
> reading the article I started doing mash hop additions and was pleased
with
> the results as compared to FWH which I have been doing for the last
fifteen
> years.   Unfortunately, I haven't the reference in front of me and haven't
> read it for some time.  Most of the protein related stuff I've been
reading
> is dated after 1999 however; material Hangofer would not have had
available
> in 1997.
>
> By no means did I mean to imply this was the primary mechanism or that you
> were in some way incorrect.  Merely opening the window on possible other
> potential minor contributors.
>
> Thank you for helping to fill the cognitive space,
>
> Chad Stevens
- -----------------------------------------------------

Additional retort:

I was not familiar with the Goiris et al., 2002 Sesquiterpinoid article.
Outstanding stuff!  Thank you for turning me on to it.  Prior works (eg.
Irwin, 1989, JIB) had suggested a less robust effect.

A few observations however.  The Goiris Paper states:
 ...concluded that oxygenated sesquiterpenoids contribute significantly to
flavor...it is remarkable that published values for the flavor thresholds of
known oxygenated sesquiterpenoids  are much too elevated in regard to the
observations...it is suggested that very flavor-active constituents, of as
yet undefined nature, are present in the oxygenated terpenoid fraction.

Note, "contribute significantly."  They ain't all the flavor, rather a
significant contributor.

Again, by no means was I attempting to detract from your original post,
merely adding to, as I am again about to....

For the sake of clarity, an analogy.  I have tasted p-lambics to which have
been added lactic acid and fruit syrup.  Wonderful drinks intended to
approximate lambics, but they were one dimensional, lacking that certain
depth and complexity which makes a lambic a lambic.

And I'd be willing to bet a six-pack, so it is with humulene epoxide
extract.  I do not question their being a "significant contributor" to
flavor.  I'll go one further, I can't wait to get my hands on the stuff so I
can play with it and call it the major contributor.  But to say that
humulene epoxides are the one and only contributors of hop flavor seems a
bit of a stretch.  I haven't tasted the stuff, but I bet it provides the
same one dimensionality described in my lambic example.  So, assuming there
is a lack of depth and complexity in the extract, one can deduce, (a
deduction from an assumption, I never said I had any proof of anything)
there is more to hop flavor complexity than oxidized sesquiterpenoids.  And
with all of the proteins floating around in the mash and in the wort prior
to boil, proteins that are known for complexing with all kinds of stuff, I
suggest it is a bold statement indeed to say "Oxygen and hop oil and nothing
else" contribute to hop flavor in the final product.

Weather this is a 5% or 25% contribution to hop flavor I couldn't hazard a
guess.  But I would be very surprised indeed if all of hop flavor complexity
winds up being attributed to one class of oils and to one mechanism of
stabilization.

And again, thanks for the Goiris article; wonderful stuff,

Chad Stevens



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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 20:55:38 -0400
From: FRASERJ at Nationwide.com
Subject: St Pats Counterflow Chiller problems??

I have just spent about a week re-organizing by entire brew setup,
including the addition of a convoluted counterflow chiller, mine was just
way to bulky to fit into a neat brewery setup.  But after several hours of
figuring where to position it, how to run lines etc, it was set.  I filled
the mash tun up with four gallons of water and started the pump, just to
run cold water around the system to make sure none of my fittings leaked.
Instead, water started pouring out the cold water inlet to the counterflow
chiller and eventually out the cold water outlet, as well as out the wort
outlet!!

Anyone else experience this?  Its a bit late to call St Pats, but I am
going to try.

John M. Fraser





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---