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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Propane Adapters and Hop Stringing (Kent Fletcher)
  Re: Propane Adapters ("Michael O'Donnell")
  Re: Yeast Evolution ("Michael O'Donnell")
  Fickle malt (Michael)
  Source of 'Real Ale' Brewing Supplies in US ("=?iso-8859-1?q?Ryncd=20Gweyth,=20MD?=")
  Re: World's scariest story ("Drew Avis")
  RE: WhiteLabs Saison, and multiple yeast fermentations ("Sven Pfitt")
  re: high alc and veg beers ("-S")
  re: hops stringing ("-S")
  Water Softeners (AJ)
  re: World's scariest story ("-S")
  honesuckle use (Alan Meeker)
  Liberty Hops / stale extract/cidery flavors ("John Palmer")
  RE: Steinbier-- basalt rocks ("Doug Hurst")
  Decongestants & Judging ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  Re: World's scariest story (Dean)
  evolution ("greg man")
  Re: World's Scariest Story (Robert Sandefer)
  World's Scariest Story (Michael Hartsock)
  Re: World's scariest story (Jeff Renner)
  re:Faux Decoction ("William S Scott")


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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:00:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Propane Adapters and Hop Stringing

Nils asked about:

>Bought one of those cheap propane BBQs that run off
>the small, disposable canisters.  Does anyone know if
>there are adapters to allow me to connect my
large->threaded propane tank to the female connector
on the
>BBQ?

Yes, you can find the adapter at most well stocked
sporting goods stores, and others that carry camping
equipment.  Has about a four or five foot hose, IIRC.
Coleman and other brands.

Kent Fletcher
Brewing in So Cal




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Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 22:28:42 -0700
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Propane Adapters

Hi Nils,

Surprisingly, you're wrong (not that I know how often you're wrong, but 
when people say they doubt they can find something at a big home 
improvement store, I tend to agree)...

Coleman makes a wide variety of these sort of accessories, and they sell 
them at Orchard Supply.

cheers,
mike
Monterey, CA

At 12:38 AM 5/7/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 08:50:43 -0700
>From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
>Subject: Propane Adapters and Hop Stringing
>
>Hi,
>   Bought one of those cheap propane BBQs that run off the small,
>disposable canisters.  Does anyone know if there are adapters to allow
>me
>to connect my large-threaded propane tank to the female connector on the
>
>BBQ?  Any idea of where I could find one?  It seems like something a bit
>
>more specialized than what the giant home improvement stores would
>carry.



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 22:38:01 -0700
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Yeast Evolution

Pat,

The scenario you describe is pure fiction... I could bring my fancy, 
private school biology education to bear, but Steve Alexander nailed this 
whole topic back in February....

http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4165.html#4165-22
"The yeast are 'selling' us a drug for a 5.2% energy tax  - and humans
willingly, anxiously, happily give yeast this food energy for a drug with
little objective value.  Let's face it Jeff,  yeast are exploiting humans.
We're yeasts' bitches."

cheers,
mike
Monterey, CA




At 12:38 AM 5/7/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> From a purely evolutional standpoint, is it possible that the plants we
>exploit for brewing grains could someday grow wise to our ways, and, like
>the strains of bacteria who laugh at the weak defenses of penicillin and
>other antibiotics, develop new strains of malting- and mashing-resistant
>barley to stop humans from exploiting their progeny into ales and lagers for
>our enjoyment?  Do I have to give up making (and more importantly, drinking)
>beer the same way doctors have to change their mode of perscribing
>antibiotics to their sick patients to ensure future generations can enjoy
>beer?
>
>What is this world coming to?  Global warming is one thing, but man, this no
>beer thing just ain't right?  What are we supposed to drink when the
>UV-fortified sun is beating down upon us?
>
>Hopefully, the scenario I describe is more science fiction than science.
>I'll go back to cursing my public school education now (ironically, I nearly
>spelled 'school' and 'education' incorrectly...).
>
>Now back to your regular programming.
>
>Pat Davison
>Ferndale, MI (but working in Ann Arbor)



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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 00:45:33 -0500
From: Michael <grice at binc.net>
Subject: Fickle malt

Pat Davison from Ferndale, MI, where my brother used to live, wrote: 

>From a purely evolutional standpoint, is it possible that the plants
>we exploit for brewing grains could someday grow wise to our ways,
>and, like the strains of bacteria who laugh at the weak defenses of
>penicillin and other antibiotics, develop new strains of malting- and
>mashing-resistant barley to stop humans from exploiting their progeny
>into ales and lagers for our enjoyment?  Do I have to give up making
>(and more importantly, drinking) beer the same way doctors have to change
>their mode of perscribing antibiotics to their sick patients to ensure
>future generations can enjoy beer?

I don't think we have to worry about malting- and mashing-resistant
barley. Barley should worry about us going extinct. People grow the vast
majority of the barley in the world, and without us to propagate it
there wouldn't be nearly so much of it. (Although if they find some
other way of reproducing, watch out!)

Now, what you have to worry about are super-pests who laugh at both
insecticides and organic farming methods. Given some bad luck and enough
time, a nasty fungus from Malaysia could wipe out the world'scommercial
hops fields, or some beetle from Paraguay could wipe out the world's
barley crops. As I recall, phylloxera nearly wiped out the European
wine industry in the 19th century. I've also read about some problems
with hops.

Well, I've spread enough cheer for one day.
- --Michael
Middleton, WI
Former resident of Rochester, MI


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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 06:04:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Ryncd=20Gweyth,=20MD?=" <bluebelz2002 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Source of 'Real Ale' Brewing Supplies in US

Will someone direct me to a retail supplier of
firkins, splines, bungs and the rest in the US.

Thank you.



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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 09:26:40 -0400
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: World's scariest story

Pat Davison asks:
"From a purely evolutional standpoint, is it possible that the plants we
exploit for brewing grains could someday grow wise to our ways, and, like
the strains of bacteria who laugh at the weak defenses of penicillin and
other antibiotics, develop new strains of malting- and mashing-resistant
barley to stop humans from exploiting their progeny into ales and lagers for
our enjoyment?"

The short answer is "no".  There would have to be some sort of advantage for
brewing grains to become "mash resistant", and clearly there isn't - in
fact, we "speed up" evolution the other way by selecting strains with
brewing friendly traits.

Hope that lets you sleep better at night.  But in case you need something
else to worry about, mother nature has developed other threats to the
quality of malting barley available to us:
http://www.mbaa.com/TechQuarterly/Abstracts/1998/tq98ab39.htm

Cheers!
Drew


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Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 10:11:46 -0400
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: WhiteLabs Saison, and multiple yeast fermentations

John Misrahi Ponders WhiteLabs Saison

>Hi all,
>On saturday, I attended a club Big Brew. I will leave out all the details, 
>but my team brewed a dubbel, >at o.g. 1.074.
>Arriving home I pitched my yeast, some wyeast abbey ale II slurry saved in 
>a mason jar from my >friend's conical.
>The next day there was no sign of life. I was a bit nervous because i am 
>used to very fast starts with >so much yeast. At the end of that day, I was 
>very concerned and pitched a vial of the only other belgian yeast I had, 
> >white labs saison. The white labs strain chart said it was a good choice 
>for a saison. Sounds strange >but I didn't see any other choice.
>I came home to find the blowoff tube clogged with krausen, and when I 
>removed the bung there >was an audible POP! I think I was this close to a 
>carboy bomb. I rapidly sanitized a bucket and poured >the carboy in. It was 
>very late and I was very tired, but I figured the majority of the 
>fermentation was >a head and would remove any oxidation worries.

>To make a long story short, should this cause any problems? It's fermenting 
>very vigorously and is >down to 1.022. The sample i took definetely tastes 
>more saison like .

>The second question is, has anyone used a saison yeast for anything other 
>than a Saison? I have a >wyeast saison yeast XL pack that I will use for 
>possibly a blackberry saison, but I am curious about >what my dubbel will 
>be like ?

Glad to hear you missed the "carboy bomb". Blow off tubes are nice for the 
first day or two as insurance.

I don't think the O2 will cause a problem at this point in the fermentation.

It may end up quite dry since the Sasion is noted for extremely good 
attenuation. 1.008 would not surprise me.

I would also expect some tart dry qualities from the yeast. Out of style for 
a dubbel, but a nice beer none the less...

I occasionally have to use a non-style yeast to recover a batch, or to brew 
because I have the wrong yeast ready.

I used a Straffe Hendrek yeast slurry I had cultured once in a Grand Cru 
because after 5 days my 3787 was not ready and I wanted to brew. Turned out 
a nice Grand Cru.

The Lager I made for Big Brew still wasn't fermenting this morning (12 
gallons), so I pitched it with three 11gr packs of Nottingham that were 
activated in a bit over a pint of cool water, and set the refrigerator to 
55F.

It's beer, not brain surgery.......

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968



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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:25:23 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: high alc and veg beers

Michael Hartsock writes ...,

>Hey now... I've made a Jalapeno pepper beer and it
>tastes damn good.

But is it beer ?     Mom always told you not to play with your food.  Why
didn't you listen, Michael ?

I think that hot pepper beers are created by folks with an erroneous idea
about food flavor.    A great beer and a bowl of spicy chili verde go
together magnificently exactly because of the contrasting flavors and
sensory impressions the two give.   Mixing the two together is colossal
mistake.

Putting chilis or jalpenos into beer is to me about as sensible as running a
grilled steak, a baked potato w/ sour cream and a glass of cabernet together
in a blender and calling it dinner.  It's an offensively bad idea.

>I'm not sure about sweet potato... but there might be
>room for a pumpkin and some all spice this october!

I'm not completely against pumpkin beer as long as you leave out the
pumpkin, bump up the gravity, change the spices and call it Xmas ale.  The
good thing about these vegetable starch beers is that the vegetable flavor
is usually too small to appear in the final beer.   Seriously - does anyone
think that a beer that really tasted like unspiced cooked pumpkin or sweet
potatoes or potatoes or zucchini would be a good thing ?  Yak !

It's just my opinion.   If we don't agree - that's not bad.

 -Steve





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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:45:51 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: hops stringing

Nils writes ...,

> Surprisingly, the hop I planted last year came back & ...

I hear snickering in the background.    It would be surprising if you were
able to eliminate your hops without a spraypack of 'Roundup' herbicide.
Hops is a virulent weed.

>I need to run some  line for it to grow up.  Do the vine bines need
something
>to dig into when  growing, like twine or string?

Yes.  Baling twine works quite nicely, but get the natural fiber stuff, not
the plastic.   The nat.fiber stuff is biodegradable and burnable.  You can
get a lifetime supply for under $20 at a farm supply store.  I think you'll
find that when they get heavy the hop bines will slide down your plastic
coated wires.   Just tie-wrap the twine over the existing wires this year.
- --

Now my question:   Any good ideas for a hop trellis ?

Last year I got advice from an highly inventive brewer who will remain
nameless.   He suggested connecting10 ft sections of electrical
conduit(relatively cheap) to make 20ft poles, then bolting three pole ends
together to make a trigonal section about 17 or 18 ft tall.      This worked
well except the weight and wind resistance of the fully grown hops and the
relative weakness of the conduits caused bending and blow-overs.

I'm looking at planting 20ft treated wood poles and stringing fencing wire
between.  Any thoughts ?  (I gotta get moving on this one - the bines are
already 3-4ft long).

 -S





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Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 14:56:10 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Water Softeners

Quick comment on sodium concentration from home water softeners: they 
replace calcium and magnesium equivalent for equivalent with sodium. 
Thus if the total (calcium and magnesium) hardness of the water is 200 
ppm as CaCO3 that is 200/50 = 4 mEq/L and the output water will have 4 
mEq/L sodium (92 mg/L) in addition to any sodium that was in the water 
to start with. Such a high level of sodium may or may not be a problem. 
Loss of calcium definitely is (though I and others, I'm sure, have 
brewed with water processed through these devices).

A.J.



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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:20:18 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: World's scariest story

Pat Davison writes ...,

>From a purely evolutional standpoint, is it possible that the plants we
>exploit for brewing grains could someday grow wise to our ways, and, like
>[...]  develop new strains of malting- and mashing-resistant
>barley to stop humans from exploiting their progeny into ales and lagers
for
>our enjoyment?

Your fears are unfounded.     High quality brewing barley exploits humans to
clear fields of competing plants, improve soils, carefully store and plant
seed by the hundred thousands of acres.   Low quality barley is relegated to
unimproved land with lots of competition including human agricultural
encroachment.  If barley made better bread and tasted great under Szechwan
chicken it would probably become the dominant organism on the planet !

Actually it's barley that should be scared silly by evolution.   What if
humans evolved and lost their taste for beer !

 -S





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Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 11:47:43 -0400
From: Alan Meeker <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: honesuckle use

Mike in Columbia asks about using honeysuckle blossoms in beer. Mike, all I
can say is - good luck. I tried making a honeysuckle mead (a mead subspecies
technically called a "rhodomel" I think) awhile back that was spectacularly
unsuccessful. I started out with a few pilot experiments first to see how
best to extract the wonderful aroma of the blossoms. First, I learned a
little something about honeysuckle blossoms I didn't know before. I always
assumed that the flowers came in two colors - white and yellow/orange, but
upon close inspection it appears that they all start out white and then take
on color as they age. Also, I noticed that it is the colored blossoms that
are the most fragrant, so I concentrated on these when harvesting.
Extracting the blossoms with alcohol or water at various temperatures and
for varying lengths of time (basically making teas) led me to conclude that
a brief warm water extraction was the best way to extract without
appreciably changing the character. Armed with this knowledge I harvested
huge volumes of honeysuckle blossoms, made some concentrated tea from them,
and added this to the mead in secondary after it was fairly well finished
fermenting. My reasoning was that the alcohol was probably high enough to
inhibit any contaminants (since this wasn't sterile by any means) and that
the CO2 generation was low enough at this point that the delicate aromas
wouldn't get scrubbed out. On top of this I "dry-honeysuckled" the batch as
well with a large amount of freshly-picked blossoms. I did this in the
secondary as well as the tertiary, and I used a LOT of blossoms. The mead
cleared nicely and adopted some of the coloration of the blossoms. There was
no evidence of contamination, so I had high hopes for this mead. Bottom line
however, was that, while it was a good mead, there was virtually no
honeysuckle character whatsoever - neither in the aroma  nor in the taste.
Quite disappointing!

This mead was pretty delicate, flavor-wise, so I think that even a mild
honeysuckle presence would have made itself known. Therefore, my feeling is
that trying to get any honeysuckle character into a beer will not succeed.

If you do give it a try though, please let us know the results...

 -Alan Meeker
Lazy Eight Attobrewery
Baltimore, MD
"Where the possibilities are infinite"



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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 09:05:28 -0700
From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: Liberty Hops / stale extract/cidery flavors

Joe asks for opinions on Liberty Hops.

Liberty is my favorite alongside EKG. I first sampled this hop in Pete's
Wicked Lager (which I haven't seen in years), but ever since it has embodied
the perfect hop aroma and flavor for me. Just last month I made an
all-extract Wheat Koelsch using Liberty exclusively and it turned out great.
Here is the recipe:

Wheat Koelsch
6 Gallons at 1.050
6 lbs of Wheat Malt Extract (liquid)
2 lbs of Pale dry malt extract

Liberty Hops:
1.5 oz FWH (basically I heated the water to like 120F, dissolved the extract
in, added the hops, and waited for it to come to a boil. Took about 15
minutes)
1 oz at Knockout when I inserted my immersion chiller. (10 minutes and then
began actively chillling)
Whitelabs Koelsch yeast

The beer came out great, no off-flavors, solid 30 IBUs of bitterness in the
finish, with great hop aroma and flavor up front. The wheat malt character
is a real asset because it provides for a light body with a firm malty
flavor to hang the hops on.

***
I have been interested in understanding the most likely source of cidery
flavors in extract beers lately. For years I have always echoed the common
knowledge that cidery flavors come from adding a lot of refined sugar to
canned kits. But in response to a couple threads on r.c.b, I am taking
another look at that. For example, Dan Listermann reported that he had made
a beer containing a high proportion of refined sugar that had no cidery
flavors, and of course there are all the Belgian Tripels out there that are
not cidery.
The new proposed cause is stale liquid malt extract.

My very first homebrew batch was a light beer extract kit from my local
brewshop (Fun Fermentations, OOB in the mid-90s). That beer turned out very
cidery, and I think the cause was a) repackaged bulk extract, and b)
included corn syrup to lighten the body. This most recent beer used bulk
extract that was fresh, plus a bag of Briess Wheat Malt extract which I had
bought for use as a prop on my book cover, and had stored in the freezer
ever since. I am sure it has thawed a couple times in the past 3 years, but
apparently it never went stale.

The theory now is that the stale extract causes the cidery flavors, and the
use of any refined sugar fails to hide those flavors. Any Comments?
John Palmer

john at howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com



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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:21:37 -0500
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: RE: Steinbier-- basalt rocks


Jon wrote: "What does the collective think about using basalt for the
stones used in the making of steinbier?"

I would suspect than just about any solid Igneous or Metamorphic rock
would be well suited to Stienbier, as long as it's not pourous and
doesn't have air pockets.  Most Basalt I'm familiar with fits that
description.  

In my area the best rock I can think of would be either Baraboo pink
Quartzite from Wisconsin or a solid, fine grain Granite of glacial
deposit origin.  I go to the Baraboo Wisconsin region relatively
frequently and have been considering the use of the Quartzite for some
time.

How do you plan to manipulate the rocks (put them into, and pull them
out of the boil)?  Some people wrap them in wire, leavng a long piece
which can be used as a handle.  I'm not sure if this is the best method
or not.

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[215, 264.5] Apparent Rennerian


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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 09:31:20 -0700
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: Decongestants & Judging

Hi,
  The BJCP guidelines suggest avoiding decongestants before a judging 
event.  Why is that?  I am trying to find ways to overcome my chronic 
congestion problems that won't also affect my judging.  Is there a 
specific type of decongestant that is bad (antihistamines?).  What about

some of the new drugs like Claritin, Flonase or Allegra?

Thanks,
Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA
[1978.7, 275.3] Apparent Rennerian

In Heaven there is no beer, that's why we drink it here,
And when we're gone from here, our friends will be drinking all the
beer.


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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:42:57 -0700
From: Dean <dean at deanandadie.net>
Subject: Re: World's scariest story

Pat Davison got to thinking about the
evolution of grain and scared us all.

> From a purely evolutional standpoint,
> is it possible that the plants we
> exploit for brewing grains could someday
> grow wise to our ways, and, like
> the strains of bacteria who laugh at the
> weak defenses of penicillin and
> other antibiotics, develop new strains
> of malting- and mashing-resistant
> barley to stop humans from exploiting
> their progeny into ales and lagers for
> our enjoyment?

I am not an evolutionary biologist, nor
do I play one on TV.  However, I am
married someone in a closely-related field.
The following is my educated
opinion, and I do not intend to start an
evolution debate.  I merely hope to 
quell Pat's fears.

I doubt we will ever see a malt-resistant
grain.  As I understand it, malting is
the process of allowing the seed to grow
just enough to begin sprouting. Brewers
like this because the unusable
protein/carbohydrate starch reserve
(endosperm) breaks down into something
usefull to us (and the plant).  After
conversion, the seed is killed with heat.
If there were some genetic modification
that made the plant resistant to the malting
process, the mutation would also affect
the plant's ability to grow from seed.
The modified plants would be out-competed
by non-malt-resistant plants thereby
loosing access to nutirents, sunlight, etc.

Mash-resistant strains of grain face the
same obstacle, evolution-wise, because
mashing is another natural process that
humans learned about and adapted the
process to suit their wants.

I can not say that the possibility is
impossible, but resistant grains would
mean a change in the fundamental way the
plant begins its growth.

For those of you that believe in
creationism or intelligent design, I
offer the following reasoning.

Since God is perfect, God must drink beer.
Therefore, God would not alter the
ancient and time-honored process of
producing beer. Unless, perhaps, the
process creates better beer.

- --Dean - Unscrambler of eggs
- --
Quality Web Hosting http://www.3llamas.com
Take your time, take your chances
[5899.2, 94.2] Apparent Rennerian
- ----------------------------------------
It matters not how strait the gate
How charged with punishment the scroll
I am the master of my fate
I am the captain of my soul.
- -- Invictus --
- -- William E Henley --


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Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 14:28:11 -0400
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com>
Subject: evolution

     OK I stayed quiet as long as I could, this post will vaguely discuss 
beer, but more importantly: I do not want to enter a religious or or 
scientific debate however some people feel the need to express there views 
about science so I will briefly try to explain the other side of the 
story...................................
     For those of you who are very educated I want to first thank you for 
sharing your knowledge with the rest of us who are only high school 
graduates or still in collage like myself.
     That being said given the depth with which you have studied science is 
it not amazing the complexity an the organization of these things? Is it not 
also true that they are so complex in fact that even at the highest levels 
of study there becomes no more knowledge only debates between expert's?
     If we as humans can not fully explain the complexity of our world in 
even the smallest detail: take for example light is it a particle or a wave? 
If we can not explain these things is it logical to assume we know how they 
came to be here in the first place? It is true man has learned much about 
this his world so much in fact that you could spend a life time of study in 
just one field, but at the end of your life would you know it all about that 
subject? NO, however you would have much to pass on to the next generation. 
Can you then propose how it came into exist in the first place?
          For those that do, I have a question for you: we as a human race 
are evolving right? But then we keep our sick alive and attempt to prolong 
the life of the aged? Are we going to evolve or digress as a species? Since 
nature selects only the fittest to survive are we not disrupting the natural 
progression of life by attempting to treat people with medicine? Now many 
diseases are cured and I'm not suggesting we allow people to die, however by 
keeping them alive and if they have children we eliminate natural selection? 
Is that not correct?
      Theory's are wonderful but let us accept then for what they are 
THEORIES. There is a great rift between the science world as to creation or 
evolution. There are compelling arguments for each side, please investigate 
both before you make a decision.

Remember it was not to long age we bleed people to let the bad spirits out 
so they would get well!!
Today's geniuses's in 500 years will be considered children in there 
understanding because

ec 8:17 says  " And I saw all the work of the [true] God, how mankind are 
not able to find out the work that has been done under the sun; however much 
mankind keep working hard to seek, yet they do not find out. And even if 
they should say they are wise enough to know, they would be unable to find 
out. "

Even in brewing we do not fully understand water chemistry, hop utilization, 
enzymes, yeast cells we are still learning all these 
things..............................so please don't try to tell me you know 
how they came to be...................




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Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 14:47:51 -0400
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Re: World's Scariest Story

For the biologists out there, you know what I'm about to write.
For the rest of the Group, relax. You're barley will not turn poisonous or 
grow tentacles.

It is true that various molds and microorganisms secrete various chemicals 
to limit competition (e.g.,other molds and microorganisms on the melon). In 
the vocabulary of my field, the secreting organism(s) is biologically 
exploiting the other organisms. This means the presence of the secreting 
organism deters the growth of others species.

This however is not applicable to barley (or hops or yeast). Why? Because 
human beings do not biologically exploit these species. Our presence in an 
area does not cause the populations of these species to decrease. Indeed, 
we are mutualists with these species. Human presence tends to increase the 
populations of these species in an area. Think of it this way: Before the 
cultivation of barley, how much land did barley grow on? How did it spread 
into new areas? How many continents did it grow on? After humans started 
growing it for flour and beer (yeah), how would these answers change? As 
far as I know, barley is now grown on 6 continents, its protected by 
wonderful helpers called farmers, and has a lot bigger population size than 
it did in the wild (speculation true but it makes sense). All we ask is 
some assistance in making beer, but as a species, barley comes out well. 
Therefore, to my knowledge, there isn't a creditable biological theory that 
would support the occurrences feared.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled beer.

Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA

Biology is fun.



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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 12:18:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: World's Scariest Story

Along the same lines.  I have heard of the development
of sanitizer-resistant strains of bacteria developing
in breweries, becoming persistant problems.  

It makes sense that micro evolution would be occuring
in our homes, basements, and picobreweries.

mike

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:58:34 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: World's scariest story

Pat Davison <Davison at nsf.org>, who lives in Ferndale, MI (but works 
in Ann Arbor), says my post got him to thinking...

>From a purely evolutional standpoint, is it possible that the plants we
>exploit for brewing grains could someday grow wise to our ways, and, like
>the strains of bacteria who laugh at the weak defenses of penicillin and
>other antibiotics, develop new strains of malting- and mashing-resistant
>barley to stop humans from exploiting their progeny into ales and lagers for
>our enjoyment?

No way!  As has been pointed out here before, we THINK we are 
exploiting barley for our purposes, but in fact, barley is exploiting 
us for its.  Think about it, without barley's wonderful beer making 
qualities, what would it be?  Just another feed grain, and not nearly 
as successful, at least by the standard of how much is  growing in 
the world at any one time.

Barley's success depends on its ability to exploit humans.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 22:26:50 -0500
From: "William S Scott" <>
Subject: re:Faux Decoction

Brian Lundeen posted the following in HBD 4237 :

>This month's Zymurgy article on Pilsner brewing makes mention of an
>alternate approach to decoction mashing. The author writes (and where's a
>good OCR package when you really need it) . . . .

> . . . . Back to me: Sounds interesting, and also a little scary. Comments
and
>details from the experts in here would be greatly welcome.

******************************************************************************
***

Brian,

I'm the culprit responsible for the Zymurgy article you quoted, and would be
glad to add a few extra comments.  The Schmitz process is briefly mentioned
in volume 1 of De Clerck's "A Textbook of Brewing".

Assuming you wish to decoct, it can save you time and effort (and mess) if
you have the ability to boil the mash directly in the mash/lauter tun.
The convenience lies in not having to pull the decoctions, then remix them in
an attempt to hit your desired rest temperatures.  Simply apply the heat to
reach your temperatures, then draw off some of the wort before boiling the
entire mash.  Any starches released during the boil can then be broken down
by the enzymes remaining in the wort that you drew off earlier.  You just need
to cool the mash down somewhat before reintroducing the wort.

I must confess that have never used this technique to produce a Pilsner, but
it
makes for great bocks, dunkels, and O-fests.  I haven't run any side by side
experiments to directly compare it with other types of decoction mashes.

One thing to consider is that even with a triple decoction mash, about 30 %
of your grist will never be treated to a boil (assuming that you pull
one-third
of the mash to decoct and remix evenly). About 44% will be boiled one time,
22% will be boiled twice, and about 4% of the grist makes all 3 trips to the
boiler. Double decoctions leave about 44% of the grist unboiled, with 44%
boiled once, and 11% boiled twice.  The Schmitz process ensures that all of
the grist is treated to a full boil.

As a side note, I recall a conversation that I had with Mark Naski of the St.
Louis Brews a few years ago.  He stated that on a brewery tour in northern
Germany, the tour guide described how they boiled their entire mash just
prior to lautering.  The name of the brewery escapes me, but I believe they
were producing a Pils wort at the time. Perhaps others might have more info
on the commercial use of this mashing technique.

Hope that makes it a bit more interesting and a bit less scary.



Prost !

Wm. Shawn Scott
McAlester, OK
wscott at lakewebs.net




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